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EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? #112761
05/28/11 11:23 AM
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Ok, to move this topic to it's own thread (kinda)...... I pose the following question:

EA vs PA - which one is worse/more devastating/dangerous - in your opinion?

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #112764
05/28/11 11:41 AM
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It's all about "it depends" to me.

If my H had a EA I know I would be gutted and would feel very sick. If he slept with another woman, a couple of times, I think it would bother me less.

I think what is more important is the length of the A and how it ends.

Probably because I know the affect my 20month A (EA for the bulk, turning P towards the end) had on me. J commented in the weeks after dday that if I had slept with him he would not have wanted to have continued in a M with me.

If he had one and he realised what a doofus he was and ended it, then I would be happier than if I found out about it in other ways.

Knowing how much into OM I was, I would not be happy about an EA because I know the mind of the OW.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Squeaky Tree] #112786
05/28/11 02:21 PM
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The physical part of my husband's affair was not as damaging as the emotional part. The sex was done behind my back, the lies and verbal abuse were right in my face. That was the hardest to recover from.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: peppermint] #112818
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It depends...

For instance: a one-night-stand would tear me up, but if it was truly someone he'd never want to see again, then I wouldn't see that as much of a threat to our LT marriage. It would damage our relationship and would be something we'd have to work through, but I think the M would remain intact.

A LT EA I would see as a serious threat to the M. Meaning, even if I wanted to save our M, if he was involved in an EA I might not be able to "get him back." That would be worse, IMHO.

A LT PA I would see as a threat to the M, but if he wasn't emotionally involved, I would think there would be more hope of recovering the M.

But trying to imagine which one would make me see red more... the physical part is a definite line in the sand. The emotional part would be hard to define when exactly the line is crossed. If it was a slow gradual EA leading eventually to a PA, the PA would be the line in the sand that would finally be the breaking point, if I hadn't been aware before. But it would probably be the emotional betrayal, the emotional attachment he felt to the OW, that would hurt the most. The physical part would just be the sign, the symbol that cannot be ignored. It would push me over the edge into the land of hurt, if I'd been oblivious before.

Learning about an incident of a single physical indiscretion would hurt a LOT more than learning about a single incident of an emotional indiscretion.


42.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Jayne241] #112856
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This subject has been tackled before. For those who have not sat on the BS side of the A, the PA seems like the greater betrayal. But for many who have been forced to take on the BS label, the most pain is the EA portion.

Why? That is where the distrust starts. The PA is one of the types of distrust but the EA is often where it starts and ends the M. All the attacks on the BS and family is not due to the PA but the EA. The need to make the BS and family look bad is due to the EA's need to survive.

Of course short term A's compact this and often the EA/PA are meshed together. For longer term A's, the EA stands out as the longer lasting issue and often reveals other major shortcomings on the part of the WS.

The A itself is a lesson in self-examination for both spouses. Rebuilding the trust is another topic but a start to the key elements on how to recover and handle a WS gone mad.

This is why we can't put all the A scenarios in one box but we can isolate common denominators related to an A.

Your comments are helpful to all who are reading. Thanks for posting and I encourage more to do the same.

Mahalo,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #112893
05/28/11 09:26 PM
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In the many, many times I have seen this topic come up, the division seems to be gender related.

For women, the EA is more painful. For men the PA is.

On D-day, I believed it was 'just sex'. I was angry and still willing to work on stuff. When I discovered 3 days later it was an EA with sex and I was not going to be the chosen one I was gut wrenched. The EA aspect was defiantly harder for me.

During recovery, I admitted to Flick that I had briefly been 'sexting' with a guy, while he was in his affair. His comment - "As long as you didnt *beep* him"


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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Lil] #112919
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I agree mostly with Lil. My H had an 18 month EA with no PA. And I've often remarked to him that a ONS would have been easier for me to deal with.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: OurHouse] #113050
05/29/11 04:51 AM
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For me, the bigger shock to my system was the physical part of his affair because I never believed in a thousand years that he would have ever cheated on me in that way - that he'd actually go have sex with someone else. The EA part of it, I *thought* I could dismiss - saying to myself, "Oh...whatever... he didn't mean all that stuff he said to her...he just needed an ego boost," or something of the like.

However: with it now all said and done: what haunts me is the things I had to read in the emails back and forth - the "you're beautifuls" and the pursuing - the premeditation of it all. Originally the PA part of it took me down hard when I thought of the two of them together (they spent 2 weekends together when he went to visit her). The EA has had more of a lasting effect though - from the pain and suffering point of view.

H's affair - for the record - lasted about 9 months with most of it done via text/email and 2 in-person visits.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: SunnyD] #113095
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SunnyD,

It is during the EA that the scheming and planning to destroy the BS and family is done by the WS and OP.

The EA is longer lasting in most cases. I have yet to hear of a PA lasting longer than an EA. eek

I wanted to add another word to this mix: Selfish

In addition to the greediness of the A, the selfish acts which the OP and WS use to promote the A often end up throwing the BS and family into shock. It is as this time that the A flourishes. Without the chaos, most A's can't survive.

That is the key..... the BS and family must learn NOT to contribute to the chaos. That is why it is vital the BS get over the shock of the A, ASAP. Learn how to move forward (plan A/B/D, etc.) and if necessary, NC.

The sooner the WS and OP are left with only each other the sooner the fantasy of the A dies. Least in many cases. There are always exceptions..... but safe to say..... planning in this direction certainly helps the BS and family recover stronger.

JMHO,
Orchid


Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #113099
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Quote:
For women, the EA is more painful. For men the PA is.

This is my belief too.

Even though when my STBX left there wasnt OM, a few month later when I found out she slept with someone, it help me to move on. That hurt me more than an EA.



Last edited by gr8 day 2b alive; 05/29/11 12:20 PM.

Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #113173
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I have said this for a long time, it is simply my opinion, and I am not a professional, aside from the school of life. Men feel that their wives having a PA is worse, when the EA is more dangerous. Women tend to feel the EA is more dangerous, which I agree with.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #113185
05/29/11 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
SunnyD,

It is during the EA that the scheming and planning to destroy the BS and family is done by the WS and OP.

The EA is longer lasting in most cases. I have yet to hear of a PA lasting longer than an EA. eek

I wanted to add another word to this mix: Selfish

In addition to the greediness of the A, the selfish acts which the OP and WS use to promote the A often end up throwing the BS and family into shock. It is as this time that the A flourishes. Without the chaos, most A's can't survive.

That is the key..... the BS and family must learn NOT to contribute to the chaos. That is why it is vital the BS get over the shock of the A, ASAP. Learn how to move forward (plan A/B/D, etc.) and if necessary, NC.

The sooner the WS and OP are left with only each other the sooner the fantasy of the A dies. Least in many cases. There are always exceptions..... but safe to say..... planning in this direction certainly helps the BS and family recover stronger.

JMHO,
Orchid



You're VERY right, Orchid!!! The faster the BS and family can get their acts together, the faster an A can be battled and taken down. That's what is so hard when newbies walk into the forum: they're still in the shell-shocked state. As a vet, you know the best way to help them save their marriage is to get them out of that poor me state as fast as possible, but it is SO hard to do! In my sitch, since I'd been through this already, I knew that and it helped me wake up fast and do what was necessary. A BS simply does not have time to sit around and be consumed with grief, even though it is very warranted.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: SunnyD] #113213
05/29/11 09:11 PM
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Thats why having plan options available help. It is easy to feel overwhelmed when you first arrive. However some studies have shown that just having a solid plan to hold onto can help with the feelings of depression, anxiety, and other emotional turmoil caused by D-day or whatever bought someone here. If said plan can be broken down into small achievable goals, so much the better for starting positivity.


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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Lil] #113246
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
Thats why having plan options available help. It is easy to feel overwhelmed when you first arrive. However some studies have shown that just having a solid plan to hold onto can help with the feelings of depression, anxiety, and other emotional turmoil caused by D-day or whatever bought someone here. If said plan can be broken down into small achievable goals, so much the better for starting positivity.


Lil,
You are accurate in your summary. Getting a plan is key to recovery.

No plan, slow or no recovery.

With an executable plan that is implemented: The odds greatly improve.

Note: A plan does not equate to M recovery. A good plan equates to the BS and family, learning to move forward. Then whether or not the WS decides to return to the family as an XWS or spouse (H or W) role is up to them individually. Either way, the family does not stagnate but moves forward.

IF we can get that message out there to those dealing with these issues, then the details of each A issue becomes more manageable.

Basic plans, then custom recoveries....... that's a plan to promote. wink

IMHO,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #113250
05/29/11 10:59 PM
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I think very few BSs are able to pick them up and demonstrate loving toughness (or whatever you want to call it) from early on in a sitch. It takes a very strong character to do that, or life experience (such as in SunnyD's case). And I think usually when the bomb hits, the BS is already in a depleted state knowing something is wrong but not knowing what.

I have to agree that while I was willing to get over WHs sexual infidelities of the initial 4-5 week PA with OW, it was his emotional infidelity that came after which kills me the most.

For the last 4-5months of my pregnancy WH and OW were not even together phyically...it was all long distance EA..she was in Europe, we were here. All when WH was a 10min drive away from me. Instead of giving me emotional or even practical support, he acted like I was dead and dedicated all his emotional energy to OW who was on the other side of the world. His nights were taken up Skyping her, planning a future with her, pledging his love for her, while I was at home alone, devastated, confused out of my skull, and gestating OUR baby.

It makes me want to vomit thinking about it.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Lil] #113251
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
For women, the EA is more painful. For men the PA is.


I know this is how some men may feel but think about it. What actions are most damaging to the M and family?

Pictures of body parts in action may leave a horrible impression but I have yet to hear about a WS texting/emailing or calling with horrible threat WHILE banging or being banged by the OP. eek

Yet the most damage comes from the communication or lack thereof by the WS against the BS and family.....this happens due to the EA.

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: piano] #113252
05/29/11 11:05 PM
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What is an EA, Emotional affair? How do you define it? What does it consist of?

How is it different then a friendship?

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Don Man Don] #113253
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An emotional affair has romantic underpinnings...it's about desire and transfer of romantic energy from the spouse to the affair partner. It's the bit before you jump their bones.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: piano] #113255
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What is "romantic energy?"

is that one of those Law of Attraction cult terms?

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Don Man Don] #113256
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Originally Posted By: Don Man Don
What is an EA, Emotional affair? How do you define it? What does it consist of?

How is it different then a friendship?


An EA (emotional affair) is when a spouse seeks out others outside of the M to support them emotionally and willing to create a fantasy world filled with a negative environment to promote this association.

A true friendship does not encourage a PA. Yet the EA does in many evil and plotting ways.

Ever hear about a spouse so happy with their mate that they carried on a EA/PA? I haven't.
RE: The EA must have deceit and deception built on distrust to survive.

The creation of the EA may not be deliberate or it may be. Either way at some point as long as the EA is allowed to continue that is when the abuse of it all starts to be felt. Usually the EA happens before the PA and often continues after the PA is ended.



Below is one definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_affair

An "emotional affair" is an affair, which excludes physical intimacy but includes emotional intimacy and can begin as innocently as a friendship. It may also be called an affair of the heart. Where one partner is in a committed monogamous relationship, an emotional affair is a type of chaste nonmonogamy without consummation. When the affair breaches an agreement in the monogamous relationship of one of the partners to the affair, the term infidelity may be more apt.


Definition

David Moultrup has broadly defined an extramarital affair as
a relationship between a person and someone other than (their) spouse (or lover) that has an impact on the level of intimacy, emotional distance and overall dynamic balance in the marriage. The role of an affair is to create emotional distance in the marriage. The critical principle to consider is the possibility of unconscious emotional benefits gained by the uninvolved spouse. The goal of therapy is to resolve the intimacy problems in the couple relationship so that an affair will no longer be 'needed.' This model does not consider the possibility of accidental affairs nor those that arise out of individual pathology or habit rather than relationship difficulties.
This viewpoint does not require sexual play or sexual intercourse in order to define the presence of nor the impact of an affair on a committed relationship. Moultrup is the author of 'Husbands, Wives & Lovers' [1] and has contributed to 'The Handbook of the Clinical Treatment of Infidelity'.[2]
An emotional affair has the capacity to injure a committed relationship sometimes more than if it were a one night stand or about casual sex.


I am sure you can do more research on this definition.

Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #113262
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I think your definition was WAY better then the ones you copied.



Quote:
Ever hear about a spouse so happy with their mate that they carried on a EA/PA? I haven't.
RE: The EA must have deceit and deception built on distrust to survive.


explain this : "The EA must have deceit and deception built on distrust to survive."

And sure, people can be happy and "in love" with their spouse and sleep with other people on the side. doesn't seem the least bit odd that that might occur.

But the "unhappiness" you think that happens to come out during the "EA" or or do you think someone may be "unhappy" and they seek out what they taught their relationship was going to provide for them. E.g. companionship, emotional support, someone who is no drunk and yelling at the kids, someone that wants to "live life" and not veg out in front of the tv.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #113263
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2

I am sure you can do more research on this definition.

Orchid


People on this site can define it better than any therapist or internet columnist ever could. It is what they "lived" not what someone is "paraphrasing" from someone else. Nothing gets lost in translation when you or I spill our guts.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Don Man Don] #113264
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Romantic energy is my attempt to describe that feeling where you are throwing all your love vibes and sexual vibes to a person of the oppoite sex. DMD, don't pretend you don't know what I mean. I am sure you have been hot under the collar for more than one girl in your time, thinking life with her would be just so hot and so blissful!


Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards. Kierkegaard.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: piano] #113265
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So much easier to think the grass is greener where you are not watering it. If you are sick of blobbling in front of the tv with your spouse, turn the tv off and DO something about what you already have rather than getting on line and finding someone to have a PA with.

It's kinda simple...and yet so hard for we mere mortal humans.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Don Man Don] #113266
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Originally Posted By: Don Man Don
I think your definition was WAY better then the ones you copied.



Quote:
Ever hear about a spouse so happy with their mate that they carried on a EA/PA? I haven't.
RE: The EA must have deceit and deception built on distrust to survive.


explain this : "The EA must have deceit and deception built on distrust to survive."

And sure, people can be happy and "in love" with their spouse and sleep with other people on the side. doesn't seem the least bit odd that that might occur.

But the "unhappiness" you think that happens to come out during the "EA" or or do you think someone may be "unhappy" and they seek out what they taught their relationship was going to provide for them. E.g. companionship, emotional support, someone who is no drunk and yelling at the kids, someone that wants to "live life" and not veg out in front of the tv.



No marriage is perfect. Marriage is a commitment and does have responsibilities and requirements.

In addition to the legal requirements, there are moral requirements as well. The trust factor is always lost when their is an A. It's loss is felt greater during the EA (which runs the entire course of the A), then just during the PA portion.

A mate can seek guidance or advice with the objective to know how to help make improvements but not by seeking out bad direction.

For example, supposedly in the case of a WS, he was frustrated. He wanted to be successful in life, had a porn attraction and felt he was not as successful as his W. He had always made less $$ than his W but never told her how he felt. In fact he told his W that her high salary was ok with him as long as they spent the $$ together. Which they did. Then some real selfish spending habits began creeping up. Eventually this now WS had opened 10 credit accounts and forged their spouses name. Racked up to the max and then went to have an A. Leaving his spouse to pay for those bills and now deal with an OW who was claiming she wanted child support (for an unborn - never born child - fako pregnancy) and medical coverage. The OW at the same time lured the WS into promises of fast $$. The only real fast thing that emerged were those lewd pictures sent to the family's home computer...... lots of lies, lost monies and great heartache. The story goes on but I think you get the picture.

The plots and plans of the WS and Ow during this time was not made public. Each item of info obtained by the BS/family and support teams were extracted with great pains.

This was not an easy fight.... yes, it was a fight where the odds were not evenly distributed.

The above is only one example and other BS' have had varying degrees of these same issues.

The point here is make people aware of how bad it can be and the best practices to survive. That way no matter how bad it tries to be, the BS knows their options and the sooner those options are enacted the better the chances are for survival.

NOTE: I did not say marital recovery.... I said survival.

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Don Man Don] #113267
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Originally Posted By: Don Man Don
Originally Posted By: Orchid2

I am sure you can do more research on this definition.

Orchid


People on this site can define it better than any therapist or internet columnist ever could. It is what they "lived" not what someone is "paraphrasing" from someone else. Nothing gets lost in translation when you or I spill our guts.


DMD,

I tend to agree. wink However, some like to see others who are outside our arena to give their POV (professional or not) as a means to compare.....

You asked for a definition. I provided one to consider.

How you digest that info is now up to you.

Your questions and observations are good. Keep asking and hope those reading will find some answers as well. That's what we do best around here. grin

Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: piano] #113275
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Originally Posted By: piano
So much easier to think the grass is greener where you are not watering it. If you are sick of blobbling in front of the tv with your spouse, turn the tv off and DO something about what you already have rather than getting on line and finding someone to have a PA with.

It's kinda simple...and yet so hard for we mere mortal humans.


What if you turn the tv off they become really nasty and mean and swear at you, would you turn it off a second time? What if instead of turning off the tv a second time you made a big deal out of going for a walk around the neighbor and you were called stupid for that? Is your grass green?

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Don Man Don] #113336
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Yeah, I'd be in a funk if I felt I couldn't get through to my spouse. If I'd tried several different things and I was called stupid for them, I'd start to lose a lot of love, I'd start to withdraw. I might start fantasising that there's a better man out there for me. I might even already have my eye on him. He's married with kids but so what..we have a connection and we only want to be happy, right? And I deserve to be happy too!

My grass is not too green, since you are asking. I'm working on it.


Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards. Kierkegaard.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Don Man Don] #113339
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Originally Posted By: Don Man Don
What if you turn the tv off they become really nasty and mean and swear at you, would you turn it off a second time? What if instead of turning off the tv a second time you made a big deal out of going for a walk around the neighbor and you were called stupid for that? Is your grass green?


DMD,

You are giving a specific instance. Let's do the basic and then the specific, ok?

Basic:

Issue: Simple action by X results in mean/nasty response from Y.

X = BS
Y = WS

Basic: Learn to take the high road. Know obstacles will be put in the way. Know how to navigate through them.

Specific resolution options:
Question: Was anyone watching the TV?
If Yes, apologize for turning it off without asking.
If No, ask who you should apologize to since no-one was watching

Reaction:
TV is turned back on.

X is upset. X goes out for a walk after showing they are upset? Upon return Y calls X stupid.

RE-reaction:

X goes for walk. Apologize for the loud muttering. Leave the TV alone.

In response to being called stupid: Leave the comment alone. Just look at the person saying it and walk away. Try VERY hard NOT to look sarcastic.

The grass isn't green, the dirt is what is on top even before this incident.

The question is how to take the high road without getting more mud on your shoes.

Hind sight is good. Planning ahead is better. Reverse Babble helps, even it is just a look. wink

JMHO,
Orchid




Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #113354
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So I take it that for many of you the mental movies of your WS having sex with the OP were never of any emotional consequence?


I'd rather live by a dream, than live by a lie.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: morituri] #113374
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Originally Posted By: morituri
So I take it that for many of you the mental movies of your WS having sex with the OP were never of any emotional consequence?


Why would you think that? The pictures were very hurtful and imbedded in our minds.

The point is even with that degree of betrayal and pain, the EA invokes a worse impact and has a more vast effect.

IMHO,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #113379
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The mental movies did hurt a lot for the first couple of years.

What helped:

DH working hard on recovery.
Being told I was far better than she ever was in bed grin
Finding out she was pretty vanilla
Purposely overwriting any memories he might have retained.

What still grips my heart if I am not careful:

Remembering how it felt to watch him write "I love you" on a IM
Reading his begging letter to her when he thought the friendship was over
Reading the past history of his life he shared with her that he never told me
Remember how it felt to have him say he could see a future with her and not me
Remembering the look of contempt on his face when he woke up and realised I was looking at him

Generally I preferred the movies.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Lil] #113430
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Quote:
Remembering the look of contempt on his face when he woke up and realised I was looking at him

i can relate.
hard to get rid of that one from memory.

Last edited by D4MIL; 05/30/11 03:19 PM.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #114047
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
Ok, to move this topic to it's own thread (kinda)...... I pose the following question:

EA vs PA - which one is worse/more devastating/dangerous - in your opinion?


I think the combination is the most devastating. Once you have an emotional attachment, physical expression intensifies it. Once you have a physical relationship, emotions most often follow. In conjunction, these present a significant obstacle to overcome.

In my experience, it also depends upon the person having the affair, and gender seems significant. I've had more success helping women whose husbands are cheating than the reverse...especially if the affair is emotional.


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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AntigoneRisen] #114054
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AR,

Do you believe that once the STBXW is in another physical relationship, that the spouse is unable to take her back? That's what your statement leads me to believe. I've heard that it's much harder for a guy to get over that than a woman.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #114090
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You know, I don't know the scientific evidence but it sure seems much harder for men to get over their wives' PA's than for women to get over their husbands'. Even couples who reconcile there are cases where the H cannot be intimate with the former wayward wife for quite some time after her physical affair. I'm not saying it was easy for me, by any means! Yet, I did know in the back of my mind that physical intimacy for the two of us was important for rebuilding the bond between us.

I wouldn't say the H would never take the STBXW back, but it does seem difficult.

Last edited by SunnyD; 05/31/11 08:27 PM.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #114279
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Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
AR,

Do you believe that once the STBXW is in another physical relationship, that the spouse is unable to take her back? That's what your statement leads me to believe. I've heard that it's much harder for a guy to get over that than a woman.


No, that's not what I mean. Quite the opposite. In my experience, women are more inclined toward "or" relationships rather than "and". They more heavily have exit affairs, and do not view the affair partner as such. They more heavily tend view the affair partner simply as their next partner.

Such women tend to stay in a relationship very unhappy for an extended period, and often try everything that they can think of to fix the problem (not to say that the methods are wonderful), and are emotionally divorced. They meet someone who wakes them up emotionally and motivates them to leave.

This situation is extremely complicated to handle, even with a husband who is motivated to fix the marriage. First, you are dealing with a husband who can primarily (sometimes exclusively) see what she did and is dealing with extreme betrayal and anger. Second, you are dealing with a wife who has utterly rejected her husband as a viable partner. She's given up completely on him and walked away. Third, the expectation on the husband's part is a contrite spouse, while the wife sees only years of neglect and pain. In fact, the wife - if she were to want anything, which usually she doesn't - is expecting an apology.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AntigoneRisen] #114294
06/01/11 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Such women tend to stay in a relationship very unhappy for an extended period, and often try everything that they can think of to fix the problem (not to say that the methods are wonderful), and are emotionally divorced. They meet someone who wakes them up emotionally and motivates them to leave.


A little late to this party but I can relate to this part of AR's post, except I was waiting for him to cheat, not for me to meet someone who would motivate me to leave.

When he finally cheated (I prepared for about 2 years), he was busted by our adult son and daughter, who challenged us to fight first for our family before going with Plan D.

WH had cheated emotionally and physically (phone and email sex) but they never met in person to exchange body fluids. If they had, I don't think I would have been as willing to try to recover. Of course, I said that about him cheating emotionally, too, before it happened. Don't most of us?

Ace

P.S. I am an exception to the rule that to have an EA you need to have secrecy and distrust; I told my H about my AEAs ("Almost" EAs...details in my blog.)


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Ace] #114296
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Quote:
A little late to this party but I can relate to this part of AR's post, except I was waiting for him to cheat, not for me to meet someone who would motivate me to leave.


I agree with this, Ace. I don't think that most of these women are consciously waiting for someone else. I think that they've resigned themselves to the marriage they have (usually out of a sense of duty). However, they are emotionally vulnerable to someone who makes them feel special.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AntigoneRisen] #114298
06/01/11 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
I agree with this, Ace. I don't think that most of these women are consciously waiting for someone else. I think that they've resigned themselves to the marriage they have (usually out of a sense of duty). However, they are emotionally vulnerable to someone who makes them feel special.


Indeed.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: LadyGrey] #114305
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Originally Posted By: AR
In fact, the wife - if she were to want anything, which usually she doesn't - is expecting an apology.


YEP!!!!

Actually, I expected nothing, and I couldn't have cared less. Whatever.

I got the apology. I got a lot of apologies, over several months. I never once said I was sorry in that time, because I was not ONE BIT sorry.

In the end though, his apologies freed me up to apologize.

But if he hadn't apologized, I can assure you there is NO WAY IN HELL I would have even considered apologizing.

If he hadn't been willing to show humility, there is NO WAY IN HELL I would be married today.

Some people here want the reality to be different, but I strongly suspect my experience comports with most fleeing/unfaithful wives.

Has anyone besides me noticed that AR is REALLY smart?





Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: LadyGrey] #114326
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Quote:
Has anyone besides me noticed that AR is REALLY smart



Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #114378
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
Ok, to move this topic to it's own thread (kinda)...... I pose the following question:

EA vs PA - which one is worse/more devastating/dangerous - in your opinion?


Sorta sounds like "you've been convicted....which method of execution would you choose?"

Death by any other name is still death....but I think you are asking a question of "degrees of pain" and they will likely be as subjective as the feeling of pain itself is.

Speaking in generalities, most men will find the physical affair harder to deal with and most women will find the emotional affair harder to deal with, but either type is devastating....firing squad, gas, 'ol Sparky, dozing off into a death sleep....

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: ForeverHers] #114397
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Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
Originally Posted By: Orchid2
Ok, to move this topic to it's own thread (kinda)...... I pose the following question:

EA vs PA - which one is worse/more devastating/dangerous - in your opinion?


Sorta sounds like "you've been convicted....which method of execution would you choose?"

Death by any other name is still death....but I think you are asking a question of "degrees of pain" and they will likely be as subjective as the feeling of pain itself is.

Speaking in generalities, most men will find the physical affair harder to deal with and most women will find the emotional affair harder to deal with, but either type is devastating....firing squad, gas, 'ol Sparky, dozing off into a death sleep....


awhh FH,

PA is often of a shorter duration regardless of the gender type.

My point was which is more damaging to the M? The EA by far reaches out and slaps more than just the BS. PA is a direct aim at the BS but most of the rest don't get the direct impact. The EA however, has more of a shotgun effect reaching out and targeting not just the BS but the children, relatives, friends, work, pets, living conditions, financial arrangements, etc..... a lot more than a PA could ever do (even with an OC issue).

I didn't say which one hurt more, I said which one is worse/more devastating and/or dangerous.

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #114420
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
awhh FH,

PA is often of a shorter duration regardless of the gender type.

My point was which is more damaging to the M? The EA by far reaches out and slaps more than just the BS. PA is a direct aim at the BS but most of the rest don't get the direct impact. The EA however, has more of a shotgun effect reaching out and targeting not just the BS but the children, relatives, friends, work, pets, living conditions, financial arrangements, etc..... a lot more than a PA could ever do (even with an OC issue).

I didn't say which one hurt more, I said which one is worse/more devastating and/or dangerous.

JMHO,
Orchid


I hear you, Orchid. Perhaps we each view it from the perspective of our own experience. In my case, I view it from the perspective of a committed long-term affair.

It is the adultery itself, not the manifestation, imho, that is what is more damaging to the marriage and that also affects many beyond just the couple in the marriage.

To put some qualifier of "which is worse" seems to diminish the gravity and severity of the adultery, the breaking of the marriage covenant.

How a person in the marriage "feels" is quite often different too. Most women tend to be more hurt by the emotional component and most men tend to have a harder time with the physical component, but in both cases it has a lot to do with what happens AFTER the affair becomes known. How does the WS respond and how long does it take them to respond, if at all, seems to have a great impact on the severity and scope of the damage to those involved in the marriage and those "extended" persons connected to the marriage, as well as all the material things.

It's possible that you are seeing this from a female perspective and I am seeing it from a male perspective, which seems to be borne out in the opinions being stated.

Most women I have conversed with over the years have said that the emotional conncection is the hardest part for them to deal with and most men I have conversed with have said the physical connection is the hardest and causes the most intense mental movies. For those around the marriage, they don't feel the betrayal at the same intensity level as the BS. They see it a a betrayal of the marriage covenant, and depending upon what sort of relationship they have with the BS, the impact is either greater or lesser. The ones who I think have the most danger and have the hardest time with adultery are the children of marriages that end in divorce. They tend to blame themselves for mommy or daddy leaving because they know intuitively that LOVE isn't being practiced and they feel they are the cause or a part of someone not loving them enough to want to stay. They are right that LOVE isn't being practiced, but they wrongly blame themselves when the blame lies with the selfishness of the WS.

If you are talking about ONS's, use of prostitutes, etc. where SEX is the objective and emotional involvement doesn't enter in, then an EA wouldn't apply anyway, but it's still adultery and does affect a lot of people by diminishing the value and sanctity of Marriage and says "what I WANT is more important than what I may have promised." So does "no fault divorce." The real damage is to the institution of Marriage and a diminishing of the concept of sacrfice...of restricting sex to within a marriage, as God intended, and of the importance of a covenant. "My word is my bond" becomes meaningless, and so does a Marriage covenant, paper and all, profession before God and witnesses, and is replaced with "if it feels good, do it."

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: ForeverHers] #114424
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I think an EA is worse. An EA that graduates to a PA is the worst of the worst.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Lil] #114427
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
In the many, many times I have seen this topic come up, the division seems to be gender related.

For women, the EA is more painful. For men the PA is.



Yep, this generally seems to be the case.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: ForeverHers] #114443
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Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
"My word is my bond" becomes meaningless, and so does a Marriage covenant, paper and all, profession before God and witnesses, and is replaced with "if it feels good, do it."


Ahhhhh...we 'children' of the rebellious 60's & 70's can relate to the "if it feels good, do it" mantra. I was so straight-arrow, however, that my mind was set on finding a justifiable reason to get out without shame and I knew the Bible said that infidelity provided me that. I honestly did not think anyone would want my H but I was determined to tough it out.

When I told him of my (almost) EAs, he was glad I got my 'fix' of admiration, affection and conversation from others (men and women) so he didn't have to talk with me. Because of my commitment to our vows, (and for some uncanny unexplainable reasons) we always had good sex with each other, even during the 2 years as I was planning my 'getaway.' I know.....hard to believe but true, nonetheless.

And yes, I agree that AR is brilliant and FH is brilliant and Orchid is brilliant, even if each believes in different ideals.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Ace] #114463
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Hi Ace. I hope life is treating you well these days.

Don't know about brilliant (inner critic?), but I appreciate the thought nonetheless. I'd tend to look at it as many different opinions, based in large part upon each person's life experience.

God bless.


In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: ForeverHers] #114552
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Quote:
If you are talking about ONS's, use of prostitutes, etc. where SEX is the objective and emotional involvement doesn't enter in, then an EA wouldn't apply anyway, but it's still adultery and does affect a lot of people


I agree with the general concept here. It is still infidelity, and it is still devastating.

I do have a problem with discussing the "use" of someone else, particularly a consenting party. It rather sounds like we are discussing a toilet, tissue, or lawnmower when, in fact, we are discussing a human being.

Those who have emotionless sex of a short duration with someone other than his/her spouse are the ones in situations where the EA (emotional aspect) does not apply. What does come into play are entitlement, rebellion, poor self-esteem/boundaries, and/or revenge.

Quote:
by diminishing the value and sanctity of Marriage and says "what I WANT is more important than what I may have promised."


I don't agree that it diminishes the value of marriage (I won't use sanctity as a term). I believe it shows a lack of respect for the marriage, one's partner, and often oneself. The analogy I'll give here is that breaking the law doesn't diminish the value of the law; rather, it demonstrates a lack of respect for the law.

Quote:
So does "no fault divorce." The real damage is to the institution of Marriage and a diminishing of the concept of sacrfice...of restricting sex to within a marriage, as God intended, and of the importance of a covenant. "My word is my bond" becomes meaningless, and so does a Marriage covenant, paper and all, profession before God and witnesses, and is replaced with "if it feels good, do it."


Now here the subject is changed as if no-fault divorce is somehow related to infidelity. Perhaps to you, it is, which is fine. That isn't true for all of us.

Not everyone does - or has - associated marriage with a deity, let alone a particular deity. Not all have the same bounds on their religious beliefs regarding marriage. Not all profess the same vows when they marry, nor do all profess them in front of any deity.

Many, such as I, place no value whatsoever on "restricting sex to within a marriage" unless we are actually in a marriage. If I'm not in a relationship with agreed terms for monogamy, I'm not actually being unfaithful or cheating on anyone when I have sex.

I also disagree on no-fault divorce. From a practical, personal perspective, I can say it saved me from my legal battle protracting any longer than it did. As a concept, I agree with it. I believe that any relationship - save that for a dependent child you brought into the world - is at-will. If it is not, the very nature of the relationship changes from a willing engagement with another person to a forced institution of begrudging duty. Of course this doesn't happen to all, but it happens to many.

I can think of nothing that degrades the value of the institution of marriage more than forcing people to be in it against their will. Frankly, it begins to smack of slavery or, at least, incarceration. I certainly have a much higher regard for marriage than that.


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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AntigoneRisen] #114829
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
If you are talking about ONS's, use of prostitutes, etc. where SEX is the objective and emotional involvement doesn't enter in, then an EA wouldn't apply anyway, but it's still adultery and does affect a lot of people


I agree with the general concept here. It is still infidelity, and it is still devastating.

I do have a problem with discussing the "use" of someone else, particularly a consenting party. It rather sounds like we are discussing a toilet, tissue, or lawnmower when, in fact, we are discussing a human being.

Those who have emotionless sex of a short duration with someone other than his/her spouse are the ones in situations where the EA (emotional aspect) does not apply. What does come into play are entitlement, rebellion, poor self-esteem/boundaries, and/or revenge.



I agree, and I also think that virtually all affairs, as well as the use of "consenting parties" are demonstrations of entitlement, rebellion, poor self-esteem/boundaries, etc..



Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
by diminishing the value and sanctity of Marriage and says "what I WANT is more important than what I may have promised."


I don't agree that it diminishes the value of marriage (I won't use sanctity as a term). I believe it shows a lack of respect for the marriage, one's partner, and often oneself. The analogy I'll give here is that breaking the law doesn't diminish the value of the law; rather, it demonstrates a lack of respect for the law.


I agree that it shows a lack of respect for the marriage, one's partner, and oneself, but I also think it diminishes the value of marriage. One person committing an act of adultery does not necessarily harm the institution of marriage, but when it reaches near epidemic levels, as I would argue it has, then it does diminish the value of marriage to one of "as long as I think it's convenient for me" or "until I no longer feel lovey toward you." There is no longer much societal "penalty" for adultery, as we can see in many sectors, perhaps the most visible being the "Hollywood crowd."

And it does also show a lack of respect for the law, but it goes beyond that. What is the value of "Speed Limit" laws when they are routinely ignored and when only the most aggregious offenders ever get any significant penalty? What is value of "Drunk Driving" laws when drunk drivers are routinely given next to no penalty until they actually kill someone?

What is the value of a law that says you can't willfully kill someone, you can't assist in their suicide, because it attacks the sanctity and value of Human life, but that says that millions of innocent pre-born babies can be killed just because someone "wants to" because it would be an inconvenience to them to "have to" carry the baby to term? No-fault divorce does, imho, attack the value of the institution of Marriage for the same reasons.



Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
So does "no fault divorce." The real damage is to the institution of Marriage and a diminishing of the concept of sacrfice...of restricting sex to within a marriage, as God intended, and of the importance of a covenant. "My word is my bond" becomes meaningless, and so does a Marriage covenant, paper and all, profession before God and witnesses, and is replaced with "if it feels good, do it."


Now here the subject is changed as if no-fault divorce is somehow related to infidelity. Perhaps to you, it is, which is fine. That isn't true for all of us.


I didn't equate no-fault divorce with infidelity, I said it's another attack upon the value and institution of Marriage. It's another form of "try it and if you don't like it, you can get a divorce and try again and again and again as often as you'd like to." The covenant promises of fidelity and exclusivity "until death do us part" have been rendered not "worth the paper" of the Marriage certificate to a large segment of the population. It's reduced it, imho, to almost the value of a car....as long as you are happy with it, keep it. If you don't like or it get's too old, trade it in on another model, newer, younger, more exciting.



Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Not everyone does - or has - associated marriage with a deity, let alone a particular deity. Not all have the same bounds on their religious beliefs regarding marriage. Not all profess the same vows when they marry, nor do all profess them in front of any deity.


That is patently obvious in our society. I do happen to believe that marriage was established and ordained by God, and I recognize that many don't hold that same opinion. But that IS (my opinion based upon the Bible) how marriage began, and is the basis of "thou shall not commit adultery," the basis of "one man and one woman," and the basis of the gravity of marriage in that it is intended to be "until death do us part."

I would submit that "divorcing" Marriage from it's anchor in God is just another contributing factor in the rampant lack of respect for Marriage by many people. Instead of a lifelong covenant commitment, it has fostered the idea that "I" am the most important and "I" can do what I want even if it is not in the best interest of the Marriage, including adultery and divorce for reasons other than infidelity.

The problem would again seem to be one of standards, and what standards should apply. Take the "outside" standard away, and you are left with whatever the individual feels like "going along with" until such time as they don't feel like going along with it.


Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Many, such as I, place no value whatsoever on "restricting sex to within a marriage" unless we are actually in a marriage. If I'm not in a relationship with agreed terms for monogamy, I'm not actually being unfaithful or cheating on anyone when I have sex.


That's okay, I didn't either when I was young, horny, and not a believer. I understand that. It's also why God established marriage, because sexual sin is so powerful, so enticing, and so prevalent. AR, I was/am a '60's kid. I lived through the "sexual revolution" and the "women's movement." Guess what? As a horny young man, I thought it was great! Aside from having little understanding about the long-term effects of "boundary-less" sex, sex IS fun. But young skulls full of mush operating on hormones aren't really interested in much besides "getting their rocks off." A willing and compliant female with equally loose morals is like fishing in a "stocked pond."



Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
I also disagree on no-fault divorce. From a practical, personal perspective, I can say it saved me from my legal battle protracting any longer than it did. As a concept, I agree with it. I believe that any relationship - save that for a dependent child you brought into the world - is at-will. If it is not, the very nature of the relationship changes from a willing engagement with another person to a forced institution of begrudging duty. Of course this doesn't happen to all, but it happens to many.


Nonsense, there is no "forced institution of begrudging duty." That may be the result of not taking marriage seriously and not being selective in who a marital partner might be, but it is not descriptive of a marriage as God intended it.

I understand that you disagree about the overall effects of no-fault divorce. But the "at will" nature you describe as it is applied to Marriage is precisely my point, it diminishes the value of Marriage to one of "convenience" and "only so long as I want to play the 'game of Marriage'." No-fault divorce is the "get out of jail free card" that allows people to marry with no commitment to a lifetime together. Even if they promise that at the wedding, they are doing so with their fingers crossed behind their back if they really believe it's "at will." As soon as the will changes, the Marriage ends.




Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
I can think of nothing that degrades the value of the institution of marriage more than forcing people to be in it against their will. Frankly, it begins to smack of slavery or, at least, incarceration. I certainly have a much higher regard for marriage than that.


I would disagree. In my opinion, what degrades the value of the institution of marriage is the removal of penalties. There aren't any anymore. Most cases are not even brought for "cause," i.e., the cause of adultery or abuse. People without penalites will be self-indulgent and will do whatever they feel like doing, whether it's speeding down the highway as Kyle Busch did last week (128mph in 45mph zone) or whether its infidelity in a marriage or ending a marriage just because they want to.

It's also one of the reasons that the Bible teaches us to NOT be unequally yoked in a Marriage. But that gets routinely ignored too, and then they start complaining about the consequences of their marital partner choice.


"Premarital Counseling?" Even in churches today there is precious little of it, and virtually none outside of churches.



In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: ForeverHers] #114887
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If I have to choose between the EA or PA, I would say the EA. It was insidious...all of the texting, IMing, late work days, ignoring me, ignoring our son, ignoring the problems, the marriage. It was devastating to watch and even harder to feel.

What hurt the most was not the EA or EA/PA. It was the cruelty that was doled out DURING it all. The behavioral changes. At the time, of course, I attributed the pain TO the affairs. Even when my xh wasn't active in an affair, he was cruel. I still tear up when I think about it. It was the total disregard for anyone else in the marriage, including our son.

Which did the most damage? Neither. When I finally filed for D there was no active affair.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: silentlucidity] #114894
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I think I'm inclined to agree with the idea that the affair itself is forgivable. It's the utter disregard, lack of respect or empathy, and the total lack of remorse for the lbs that is the hardest part of it all. I could handle him sleeping with or having an EA I think. I cannot handle the unwillingness to even try to fix what we had before, during, and after the bomb.


Me: 31
Kids: 10, 8, 3
Bomb: 08/10
The rest doesn't matter.

No longer lost... A blog
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Thirty78] #114903
06/02/11 01:27 AM
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My thinking is that the length of the affair, the degree of abuse or abandonment, physical or emotional, and how the unfaithful spouse conducted themselves in the aftermath might be more critical to healing the marriage than the nature of the affair.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: LadyGrey] #114906
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I echo Thirty and Silentlucidity. It's the total lack of care or regard for the LBS's welfare - emotional and physical. The way he behaved towards me as soon as he committed to OW, was the OPPOSITE of all that is decent in this world. It was vile. It was like enemy attack, no joke.

WH still denies today that his affair had ANY affect on the way he treated me and our baby.

When I think about THAT, not about the sex they're having, that I wonder if I could ever be safe with him again.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: LadyGrey] #114915
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My thinking is that the length of the affair, the degree of abuse or abandonment, physical or emotional, and how the unfaithful spouse conducted themselves in the aftermath might be more critical to healing the marriage than the nature of the affair.


I agree LdG with two possible exceptions:

A ONS/PA which produces life changing consequences in the form of an STD or an OC might be worse for some.

An EA/PA where the BS has an excellent memory for detailed pain might be worse for others, especially if they are never able to overcome the constant head-movies.

My spouse was very remorseful after D-Day #4 when he realized that I had given up.....he said he would do anything to help me heal and has followed through for the most part for nearly 5 years. He says he only thinks about OW when I bring up the subject and I believe him, but unfortunately my memory for detailed pain is excellent. That's partially why we are not totally recovered after all this time. Thanks to MA, we are getting there, slowly but surely.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: piano] #115611
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Originally Posted By: piano
I echo Thirty and Silentlucidity. It's the total lack of care or regard for the LBS's welfare - emotional and physical. The way he behaved towards me as soon as he committed to OW, was the OPPOSITE of all that is decent in this world. It was vile. It was like enemy attack, no joke.

WH still denies today that his affair had ANY affect on the way he treated me and our baby.

When I think about THAT, not about the sex they're having, that I wonder if I could ever be safe with him again.


That is why IMHO, the EA is more dangerous than the PA. EA makes the BS not feel safe. The PA for the most part makes the BS hurt and angry but the EA affects our future decisions and actions. Yes, PA could bring home disease and OCs which will obviously change one's future decisions to some degree but the EA has a more frequent impact in the lives of all BS', family an friends.

Xws used to ask, when would I forget. I said as long as the trust has not bee reestablished....... maybe never. For me that's the key....reestablishing the trust.

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #115793
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I don't think very many women will have sex without an emotional attachment.

I think the formula for those women is: PA = EA + Opportunity.

And certainly many men will use that same formula too but far more men than women I think use the formula: PA = Opportunity.

That's why I believe once a WW begins a sexual adultery the BH is really, really in trouble. Far more so than a BW.

To do this a WW has closed every door on the marriage to be able to justify and live with her decision to have sex with another man.

Last edited by chrisner; 06/03/11 06:29 PM.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: chrisner] #115805
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chrisner,

Wow, that hurts! Unfortunately, I agree with it completely.

This is probably why the wife never returns to the BH.

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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #115808
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I wouldn't say the WW NEVER returns, but there would have to be a really compelling reason to bring her back, IMO.

I agree with Chrisner's assessment.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #115814
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Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
This is probably why the wife never returns to the BH.

Not true.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Looking4] #115815
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I'm pretty sure more women have returned (on this site anyway) than men. Not that they've all worked out. But most of the women try at least one time it seems.


Me: 31
Kids: 10, 8, 3
Bomb: 08/10
The rest doesn't matter.

No longer lost... A blog
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Thirty78] #115824
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure more women have returned (on this site anyway) than men.


I think you will always see a higher % of FWWs on forums like these because based on my few years of observations if a WW does decide to attempt recovery she is usually much more willing to do the hard work neccessary. They will read the books, post to the forum, seek professionals and self anaylize them selves to death.

Men typically don't want to do the hard work or self analysis. They want their BW to just forget about it. And as quickly as possible. Business as usual.

So......in my opinion......

BHs get few opportunities for recovery but when they do they have better odds.

BWs get more opportunities but the odds for a real recovery (a better and safer marriage than Pre A) is low.

Adultery sucks.


Last edited by chrisner; 06/03/11 08:23 PM.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: chrisner] #115844
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Quote:
BWs get more opportunities but the odds for a real recovery (a better and safer marriage than Pre A) is low.


Yes, I got loads of opportunity, but my unwillingness to just let it lie or sweep it under the rug was no good for XH. He had no intention of doing the work.

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Looking4] #116182
06/04/11 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
This is probably why the wife never returns to the BH.

Not true.




Originally Posted By: chrisner
BHs get few opportunities for recovery but when they do they have better odds.


Regardless of the odds involved, it's still hard work. From my observation, L4 is one FWW who has not only done (and continues to do) the work but is reaping the benefits and beyond.

Plus, she is here to help others start/endure/continue/succeed on their journeys, too.

Just sayin'.... there are exceptions to most every generality.

Thanks, L4 and other FWS willing to endure and help others overcome, too.

Ace

Last edited by Ace; 06/04/11 09:28 PM. Reason: additional thought

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: chrisner] #116192
06/04/11 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: chrisner
Quote:
I'm pretty sure more women have returned (on this site anyway) than men.


I think you will always see a higher % of FWWs on forums like these because based on my few years of observations if a WW does decide to attempt recovery she is usually much more willing to do the hard work neccessary. They will read the books, post to the forum, seek professionals and self anaylize them selves to death.

Men typically don't want to do the hard work or self analysis. They want their BW to just forget about it. And as quickly as possible. Business as usual.

So......in my opinion......

BHs get few opportunities for recovery but when they do they have better odds.

BWs get more opportunities but the odds for a real recovery (a better and safer marriage than Pre A) is low.

Adultery sucks.



I agree - adultery does suck! I am glad to be rebuilding a new marriage with my H after his affair. I know it is the right thing to do and we are happy and he is doing the work. I will admit that he prefers me to tell him what to do (recovery wise) than for him to actually seek out the books and everything else. Yet, he is 100% willing to do it. I'm not into making him jump through hoops just to make him jump through hoops. As long as he is totally vested when I say, "read this and fill this out...." and the results are there, I'm good.

What I find unfair is that I'm the one (and the kids) that suffered so badly during the 9 months of his affair and I'm still the one suffering during recovery. He doesn't have to deal with triggers of me sleeping with someone else or have the memories of nasty, awful things I said to him stuck in his brain. So, I was the one that went through Hell while he was wayward and I still have to deal with that Hell in recovery. I wish there was some way to transfer some of that!

Don't get me wrong, for the most part I really am not bitter and have forgiven, etc... But as we all know, forgiving isn't forgetting and I do manage the memories the best I can. I just feel I will be forever scarred by this while he gets to walk away from it with a few scratches, perhaps, but nothing that won't heal.


Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: SunnyD] #116207
06/04/11 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: SunnyD
He doesn't have to deal with triggers of me sleeping with someone else or have the memories of nasty, awful things I said to him stuck in his brain.


You might be surprised about his triggers Sunny. For me, I have soul sickening moments of true nausea and disbelief, where an expression on my husband's face with flash into my mind and tears come to my eyes unbidden. It's pretty awful. I try to turn those moments around and replace the image with his face lit up with happiness and me as the reason, but it's hard.

Originally Posted By: Chrisner
BHs get few opportunities for recovery but when they do they have better odds.

BWs get more opportunities but the odds for a real recovery (a better and safer marriage than Pre A) is low.


My IC is also an MC. He told me that when he hears there is infidelity involved, he crosses his fingers and HOPES it is the wife who is cheating because, according to him, women don't forgive. He says that men, at least men of a certain age, want desperately to stay with their wives.

I haven't noticed whether that statistically plays out on the forums, but I thought it was an interesting observation based upon his 27 years of practice.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: SunnyD] #116210
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And that's why recovery isn't for everyone, and I think by a lot of wayward don't even try (or continue to lie). They know that it's something almost insurmountable, and if even a small part of them wants to keep the option open the truth is never fully told.


Me: 31
Kids: 10, 8, 3
Bomb: 08/10
The rest doesn't matter.

No longer lost... A blog
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #116235
06/04/11 07:43 PM
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For me EA really hurts but the PA was the deal breaker.


M44 H42
Married 20 Together 23
S19 D18 S16
Bomb Nov 09
EA/PA with 2 diff coworkers
I filed April '10
D final Dec '10




Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: LadyGrey] #116248
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey

You might be surprised about his triggers Sunny. For me, I have soul sickening moments of true nausea and disbelief, where an expression on my husband's face with flash into my mind and tears come to my eyes unbidden. It's pretty awful. I try to turn those moments around and replace the image with his face lit up with happiness and me as the reason, but it's hard.


This is why, I believe closure for all affected parties (Xws, BS and family, etc.) is a requirement. There are 2 different types of closure: Personal and martial/family.

Each must work on their own and then together. When this is done, it improves the odds of building a better future. Moving forward becomes a unifying and joint effort with the focus on closure not triggers.

Will all the triggers go away? No. Knowing this is helpful because when the triggers do occur, there are now more who are aware and your support group can help instead of dealing with those triggers only by yourself.

Village concept. wink

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: LadyGrey] #116348
06/05/11 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My thinking is that the length of the affair, the degree of abuse or abandonment, physical or emotional, and how the unfaithful spouse conducted themselves in the aftermath might be more critical to healing the marriage than the nature of the affair.


Oh absolutely!!!!!

Though, I do believe that reconciliation is possible no matter what happened during the affair. My see my own personal experience with Mr. Not's EA/PA which included complete abandonment of me and the kids and yet we've reconciled, yet I know of a couple over there where there was a couple of email exchanges of reminiscing about a past relationship, and that couple even with personal counseling with Steve is now divorced.

Part of that may lie in the persons who make up the marriage.... wink

Not


" If you couldn't change your partner when you were together, you sure aren't going to now that you aren't together..." Words of the teacher of the court mandated parenting class...and the ONE thing that stuck out to me!!!
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Not2fun] #116387
06/05/11 04:22 AM
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You all make some really good points.

I can't say I've thought much about triggers for my husband, LG. I know he is sorry he hurt me. He wants me not to hurt any longer - yet at 6 months into recovery - it's too soon for me to not have any pain left. I feel the best I can is to make a conscious effort to not let the pain consume me by redirecting my thoughts.

I do have trigger/memory issues and I am hesitant to discuss them a whole lot with H because then it just triggers him to think about OW, or at least that's how I see it. Plus, it's a LB to do so when you've already hashed all that out.

I think my H is lucky that I am a woman of faith who believes in forgiveness. For me, forgiveness is about not wanting H to pay for what he did and not seeking revenge. I knew our marriage would never work if I stood whip in hand ready to make him dance at my feet. Yet, he did need to prove his commitment and willingness to full recovery by meeting the standards set before him: transparency, NC, etc... It's a fine line.

Now, we both work really hard at making our marriage the best it can be. And yes: it depends on the people involved and whether or not you decide you're in it together.

Orchid: I'm not sure if I have closure or not. Maybe not since I still feel the injustice of my having to pay for what H did - and having the scars, etc... What would you say closure is on a personal level and marital level?

Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Luvless] #118654
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Originally Posted By: Luvless
For me EA really hurts but the PA was the deal breaker.


Not much time to post lately ....

....but the current news treatment of Weiner's indiscretions :::insert rollie-eye thing here::: has been triggering (and insulting) for me. (What he did wasn't so bad....he only had inappropriate visual, electronic and voice contact with consentual girls/women and he said his wife knew about it so she must have approved.)

In 2006, my H "only" had an EA (involving online and phone sex) and never met the OW in person. As bad as an EA was, the WORSE part for me at least, was the subsequent (and continuing) cover-up.

Like Luvless, I thought that a PA would be a dealbreaker but have not had to experience it. The deep claws of an EA, however may seem worse at times because of the lies and cover-up necessary to maintain the deceptions fueled by addictions. Having it play out in the media round the world would make it even worse.

Anyone else feel angered by the media spin that what Weiner did "wasn't so bad...at least he didn't have physical sex.....what's all the fuss about?"

Ace

Last edited by Ace; 06/10/11 05:19 AM. Reason: different thoughts

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: SunnyD] #119151
06/10/11 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: SunnyD
....Orchid: I'm not sure if I have closure or not. Maybe not since I still feel the injustice of my having to pay for what H did - and having the scars, etc... What would you say closure is on a personal level and marital level?


Aloha SunnyD,

I have pondered your question for the past few days and hope I am able to answer it somewhat.

First of all your recovery is still in it's infancy stages. Your H is an Xws working hard to retain his status as your H. This status will take time since the A (whether EA or EA/PA) has eroded your M deeply.

For that reason there is personal recovery and marital recovery that needs to be done by each of you. You as the BS have the option to conduct the personal recovery as soon as you come out of the shock of d/d. Some choose to waste that time sitting around waiting for the WS to return.

However, this time (after d/d/ shock) is critical to how a BS recovers. The longer a BS waits for a Ws to return, the longer the personal recovery will take. Marital recovery is not even in the picture at this time.

For you now, your H has returned but remember this recovery comes in stages for both of you. This transition time of recovery in it's early stages can be joyful, hurtful and confusing on both sides. A return is no sign of an instant fix. For some it appears that way but later often the strains of a recovery without a good plan weakens the recovery process.

I am sure you don't want a weak recovery or false recovery. Maybe neither does your H but that itself will not stop a false or weak recovery from happening.

So in regards to closure, how does that help recovery?

Just as their are 2 types of recovery, there are 2 types of closure. Personal and marital.

Personal closure is for both the BS and Xws. There are separate challenges that are primarily to be worked on, on an individual basis. Each can get a good IC or supporter to guide them through it and in turn learn to have the strength to work on marital recovery as a couple.

Types of personal closure:
1. Identification of one's personal boundaries. These are necessary since no matter how much you might want to do something, if you have an ingrain boundary and don't recognize it you may be setting yourself up for failure without even realizing it. Talk about frustrating........

2. Implementation of these boundaries. This creates 'turning points' in our lives as we learn to work with our personal boundaries. For me after all the soul searching I did (via plan A), I learned that I had not many but just a few boundaries in regards to what I allow and not allow in my M. My personal boundary was NOT to allow an OP in MY LIFE. Yea.... that meant it w/b a marital boundary as well. But if the WS allowed it in his life, my personal boundary meant I must take action NOT to allow an OP in MY LIFE. While I always suspected I felt this way, the shock of the A threw me for a loop and my actions of trying to save my M actually allowed tolerance of the OP (PBR) in my life.... she took up much of my thinking time, affected my decisions, daily life events, health, finances, child rearing, work, etc.. Major impact and I was not prepared for all that interference.

3. After the Xws returned (remember in my case there was false recoveries as well), my personal closure included my need to bring the OP impact into a more balanced level, one that I could handle. I had to realize and acknowledge that I was a primary giver in my family and my taker was almost non-existant. Reading Dr. Harley's book Giver and Taker was an eye opener. My taker needed to grow. I learned to give less to the Xws and take more. It gave me strength but didn't spoil me. I also had to learn to not require such demanding perfection for myself. I was not as hard on others as I was on myself and it was revealing to learn how damaging that was to me.

4. Still...... that was all before real closure but it was in the right direction. My personal closure required I put all what hurt me in a symbolic bag and take a symbolic trip to discard it. Sounds silly but keep reading.....

5. Thanks to a lot of reading and learning from some very good supporters, I learned I had to personally take steps to discard some very strong emotions. It would not be a one time thing but it still had to at the very least start. This would then start me on the road of diminishing the effect of the A and I would regain control of my life.

6. So the road to personal recovery began. In my case, I love the ocean. I didn't realize how much I loved the ocean until I used it as a release mechanism for my pent up anger, hurt and frustration. During the shock of the A, I did attempt suicide after an IC visit with the WS and tried to end it all by walking in the ocean. The things that stopped me was my love for our son, my love for God, the his sanctity of life, plus some strangers.... yes strangers. There was about 5 people walking along the beach about 100 yards away who would have seen me walk into the ocean. The under tow was strong in that area so it wouldn't have taken me long to get swept out but knowing that they would have that memory, horrified me. See I wasn't afraid for myself, I didn't want my last breath on earth to be their horrifying memory. That hurt me badly. So I stopped. Still I realized how strong my connection was to the ocean. That would come in handy later.

7. When personal recovery kicked in, I realized I needed to use my strong connection with the ocean to discard all the baggage of the A. So I went not once by 3 times to the ocean by myself. Sat, cried, prayed and then symbolically cast my anger, hurt and frustration out by yelling it against the wind. I can't tell you how relieving that was. I may have looked like some crazed woman (I tried to do it without many around). The sound of the waves drowned my screams and very loud sobs so I belched out as hard as I could at the top of my lungs. It was therapeutic. But that was only the beginning. I did this during one of the several false recovery attempts.
I credit this to helping me through the false recovery attempts by the WS. For those that recall, I also had to deal with my miscarriages and 3 fake prego threats by the OW (PBR). There was a lot of baggage to discard.

8. Now I knew I had a means to lessen my pain in a way that was acceptable to conscience and sub-conscience. No IC or book told me that but through all the supportive posts I had read on recovering BS' I saw there was a pattern to good personal recoveries. I asked over and over how did they (recovered BS') do what I eventually called a 'personal recovery' and I learned each had to find their own healing mechanism. So if a BS didn't take the time to learn their and establish their personal boundaries, going through personal closure would be harder. I was not about to be the one responsible for slowing down my recovery. It gave me the drive to find how to recover stronger and quicker. I became more focused and determined to survive. Thoughts of suicide diminished and moving forward became a way of life.

9. With this envigored strength, personal closure was attainable. My priorities changed, my tolerance level was lowered. I could not be intimidated by an OP or anything like one. Even how I interacted with those on a professional level took on a stronger approach. I learned to be more insightful, listen more, practice patience, able to ID an WS/OP type of selfish attitude even in non-A environments and deal with them swiftly. I learned the art of reverse babble and used it skillfully. wink Getting control back in my life helped me help my family. It also helped me let go of the WS and OP drama. The WS/OP and the A lost the control they had on me.

10. Personal recovery occurred before the A was over.

This is a long post. I will post my thoughts on marital recovery and WS personal/marital recovery later.

Hope this helps,
Orchid





Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #119842
06/11/11 10:55 PM
06/11/11 10:55 PM
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Orchid,

Some very great thoughts and ideas. I definitely see the need to separate marital from personal recovery. I appreciate your insights and sharing your own experiences.

It's taking me awhile to really let everything sink in, but I am going to think about some of the things you've addressed thoroughly. I'm no longer in shock, but I still mourn that fact that my husband has actually been with someone else in such a way. I've recovered in many ways, but I don't know if you ever fully get over that, you just learn to cope. I DO hope to find closure, however, one of these days! You're right: it's still too soon for that.

I do think it's important to "do the work" even when you are still hurting. Doing the work is the only way to get past a lot of this. I like your idea of throwing it all away in a symbolic bag! Sounds like you had quite a bit to work out. frown I too love the ocean. I used to go there a lot to think and work things out when I was younger and lived close to the beach. It's too inconvenient now, unfortunately. I have had my crying/screaming moments in my car, lol.

I think for me, I put a lot into personal recovery between the first bomb (ILYBNILWY) and finding out about the affair, thankfully. It was because of that personal recovery that I was able to be strong! I wouldn't say I'm fully recovered, but I think I've come a LONG way in this past year. THe marital recovery is coming along nicely - it's just going to take time.

It did help a lot, so thanks!!!!


Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: LadyGrey] #126147
06/25/11 07:14 AM
06/25/11 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My thinking is that the length of the affair, the degree of abuse or abandonment, physical or emotional, and how the unfaithful spouse conducted themselves in the aftermath might be more critical to healing the marriage than the nature of the affair.


Very good point. The dynamics of healing the marriage are different than the dynamics of ending an affair.

I'd add in that the conduct of the faithful spouse and the handling of other destructive dynamics in the marriage are critically important to healing it.

Years ago, star*fish said something (yes, publicly, I'm not divulging any sensitive info here) very profound. She posted that she'd told her husband, "If your infidelity doesn't end this marriage, my reaction probably will."

This is not a word-for-word quote, but the basic message is there.


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"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: silentlucidity] #126152
06/25/11 07:45 AM
06/25/11 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
I wouldn't say the WW NEVER returns, but there would have to be a really compelling reason to bring her back, IMO.


I would wholeheartedly agree in situations such as what I have been posting about on this thread.

The reaction and approach I commonly see isn't focused on providing a compelling reason for her to return. The reason has to be compelling from her paradigm.

The following commonly seen approaches contain nothing compelling from the wife's perspective:

1.) Issue an ultimatum with the end of the marriage as the reason for complying. Oh ever-hopeful, solipsistic BH, guess what? She has already walked away from your marriage. The end of it is her goal. She's already had enough of giving up what she needs simply to be with you.

Let me translate this ultimatum into what she's hearing, "I'm going to get up on my high horse and demand that you remove a source of fulfillment of your needs, validation, acceptance, and affection from your life in favor of sticking with the same situation you couldn't stand before."

Likelihood of success: poor.

2.) Invalidate everything she says as "fog-speak", and attempt to talk her out of her viewpoint. The BH is displaying the exact behavior from which she is is running.

Let me translate this invalidation into what she's hearing, "I still don't give a crap about your feelings, because my viewpoint remains superior."

Likelihood of success: poor.

3.) Work on getting a life (GAL) without working on becoming a more attractive partner in terms of the behavior she finds appalling. Again, the BH is displaying the exact behavior from which she is is running.

Let me translate this independence into what she's hearing, "I still don't give a crap about how my behavior affects you, and I'm ignoring anything that doesn't directly benefit my wants/needs."

GAL can be very effective so long as it incorporates becoming a safer and more caring/responsive person. In fact, I recommend it. Without this incorporation, though, it does not work with a walk away spouse who has rejected his/her spouse as a viable partner, because it does not address how you treat the other person.

Likelihood of success: poor.

4.) Begin dating. In her mind, she's completely moved on. Now you have, too.

Let me translate the dating into what she's hearing, "Keeping you in my life wasn't worth addressing your concerns. It's easier for me to just replace you. When I said I wanted the marriage to work, I meant without any effort on my part towards becoming a better spouse."

What she's thinking, "That's what I thought. Now I know the truth, and know I made the best decision of my life when I left."

Likelihood of success: poor.

I can sum all of these up as, "I want to repair the marriage so long as it doesn't require me to do any work on being a more responsive partner, and so long as we can focus exclusively on your horrific behavior."

Now, if the BH doesn't want her to return, the above will be overwhelmingly likely to assist him in his goal.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #141644
08/02/11 09:26 AM
08/02/11 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
Ok, to move this topic to it's own thread (kinda)...... I pose the following question:

EA vs PA - which one is worse/more devastating/dangerous - in your opinion?


There was much debate, the wake of Anthony Weiner's resignation, regarding whether what he did was, technically, cheating.
And it's a point that has, occasionally, raged here and in our own lives.
Many of us pre-D-Day, would have said that we were comfortable with our husbands having female friends but that any sex outside of our marriage, even a one-night-stand, was "a deal-breaker." Post D-Day, we've often reversed that view, discovering that it's not the sex that's so troublesome but the lying and the intimacy shared with another. Many of us discover that our husband's emotional affair sharing dreams, hopes and, often, dissatisfaction with his marriage is excruciating and hard to handle. Making it harder is sometimes the notion of others that "he didn't have sex", therefore he didn't technically break his marriage vows.
But there's nothing technical about healing from an affair.
It's complicated and painful and doesn't follow prescribed rules. Most of us muddle through, hair unwashed and heart broken, until the day we feel a sliver of light shine through the dark and we realize that we just might survive this marital apocalypse.
And then comes the process of sifting through the rubble and trying to make sense of what happened...in the hope that if we understand it, we can protect ourselves from it happening to us again.
But I'm not sure, unless we've been tempted ourselves or are capable to truly putting ourselves in our spouse's shoes, we'll ever really understand it. So often I hear the familiar Nancy Reaganesque refrain of the betrayed "He could have just said 'No'."
Sure he could have. But whether he didn't say "no" to actual sex or didn't say "no" to cyber sex or didn't say "no" to sharing intimate details of his life, all the analysis in the world isn't going to change that. And, oddly, it stops really mattering at some point whether he had actual sex, cyber sex or emotional intimacy. The point is he shared something private that was supposed to be between you and him with someone else. And that hurts like hell.
The only people who get caught up in the semantic gymnastics of what cheating really is are those looking for a loophole out of their own guilt...or those who've never had it done to them.
Taken from original article Here


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Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: AntigoneRisen] #141646
08/02/11 11:52 AM
08/02/11 11:52 AM
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Quote:
1.) Issue an ultimatum with the end of the marriage as the reason for complying. Oh ever-hopeful, solipsistic BH, guess what? She has already walked away from your marriage. The end of it is her goal. She's already had enough of giving up what she needs simply to be with you.

Let me translate this ultimatum into what she's hearing, "I'm going to get up on my high horse and demand that you remove a source of fulfillment of your needs, validation, acceptance, and affection from your life in favor of sticking with the same situation you couldn't stand before."

Likelihood of success: poor.



Coach used to have a lengthy spiel about the differences between issuing ultimatums and having and enforcing healthy boundaries, and I think people get into trouble when they can't tell the difference between the two.

An ultimatum is an attempt to control somebody else's behavior. You can't really control anybody else unless they let you, and in an intimate relationship, I'd argue that isn't even healthy.

But... why should you enable an affair? If your spouse is living with you, sneaking out to meet somebody else, and using the safety of your home and marriage as a safety-net only while they try to move their affair to the next level or whatever it is they think they are doing all while ignoring the effects on you and your family, should you deny that there is a terrible price to pay for this enabling?

Doesn't make sense.

"I love you, and I understand that you are not happy with our marriage and our family, and I understand that isn't enough for you, and I wish you well, but you cannot stay here and carry on this way because I also want to be happy, don't appreciate the lies and deceit, and it's not even remotely healthy. I wish you luck, and I do love you even if I haven't always shown it very well, so I am asking you to leave because living here and having an affair isn't good for you, it isn't good for me or our marriage, and it isn't good for this family".

Telling somebody to leave if they are having an affair and telling them you will file for divorce do not have to be vindictive acts or attempts to control.

If you really, truly love your spouse, then even they can't take that from you if you don't let them. Go ahead and love them. But loving them doesn't mean becoming a martyr. Love yourself too. Love your family as well.

If you can lovingly set them free because they are no longer invested in your marriage, then you aren't issuing ultimatums. You are enforcing boundaries because you really love them, love yourself, and love your family, and you protect those you love (including yourself) using what method is available to you that does the least harm.

I can pretty much guarantee that if you live with somebody and allow them to carry on an affair, you will resent them for the ways they treat you, their callous disconcern for their own family, and that contempt will poison everybody if you let it.



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Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: EA vs PA - which one is worse - in your opinion? [Re: Orchid2] #445524
05/20/21 07:21 AM
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