Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 3 guests, and 30 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.How to deconstruct a marriage.0
2.I am Sick, I am Sad, and I am needing some support.0
3.SIHW is back and Dealing with issues....0
4.looking for some support0
5.Social Networking Sites and Infidelity0
6.Signs of Infidelity0
7.The Difference Between Cheating and Infidelity?0
8.Not really sure how to survive0
9.The Five Big Lies That Keep You From Changing0
10.Pregnant and getting put out of the house by my husband0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Does anyone remember this story?3
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Things men want3
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation9
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Topic 7: "Learning Communication Skills" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #113346
05/30/11 03:22 AM
05/30/11 03:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Al
I am not being critical of you TC or LadyGrey or Edmond Dantes or.... I am trying to remember to add into the full picture that other person you have been relating to - and PreValidate them, too.


For me, it is very hard for me to talk about my husband here. I believe that were I to humanize him or say much positive about him, I will be beaten about the head and shoulders with what a prince of a human being he is - indeed, approaching sainthood for taking me back - and what a POS I am for failing to recognize his nobility and prostrate myself at his feet five times a day in obeisance

That is what Lizzy thinks based upon the experience at the other place and how unfaithful spouses are characterized here - selfish, greedy, entitled, evil, alien - if I read more threads, I could no doubt add to that list, but I don't read many because I can't stand the dehumanizing.

Lizzy is not fond of hearing how greedy, selfish, entitled and evil I am. You have to love that in your lizard.

Quote:
I note that no one at this point in MA is volunteering to speak up from that other point of view.


I can't speak for DB, but with the exception of Mark, I haven't seen MB faithful spouses talking much about the specifics of the marital dynamic in place at the time of the affair.

There is a as far as I can tell written in stone rule on MB that the sole reason for an affair is poor boundaries. That is it. The articulated fear is that if the affair is in any way, shape or form, however attenuated, tied to the conduct of the faithful spouse that will constitute a justification or excuse which will further fuel the selfish, greedy entitlement of the unfaithful spouse.

So I'll be surprised if anyone from MB besides Mark is in a position to think in these terms. Should he choose to do so though - Mark will give you a very thorough response.

Originally Posted By: Al
The Codependent (read Slave) follows a different journey. Starting the same way, needy and selfish, the infant learns that survival is dependent on meeting the emotional/physical needs of the caretakers. If mommy is happy, I will get fed. If daddy is happy, I will get played with. The child learns to focus on the needs of others as a survival tactic. One of the most scary lines I have ever written comes to mind. "Submitting, which is a normal and short-term tactic of the Lizard, morphed into a life-style. If I submit I will live." The infant's own needs become a threat and thus this kid grows up not knowing what they want in life. This posture becomes all unconscious.

Once this "training" has been accomplished, this person, has the skills of the perfect servant, goes looking for someone to submit to, to take care of. They find a Master or a Passive Master and settle down with them. And now we have the other half of a Narcissistic Borderline Marriage.


Yep.

Originally Posted By: Al
I believe both Master and Slave postures live in terror.


Yep again. I know my husband is as terrified of me as I am of him for entirely different reasons.

Originally Posted By: Al
I say that this terror of aloneness is unconscious in the Master position, but really I mean that over time the Master will wake up to this terror. This awareness of their own terror can come slowly or quickly. The most common form of waking-up happens when their partner leaves. These are the people who come to my website because of that article "What to do when he/she leaves." These waking-up Masters are a whole lot of the people who come to Marriage Advocates. I see a lot of them here. You listen to them saying things like, "I didn't pay any attention to him." "I took her for granted." "I sure screwed up a lot." Driven by their Lizard fear of being alone, they start to learn to listen to their partner. (Spoiler Alert)


This can only happen if their partner is talking. When the partner is advised they must table their emotional needs to tend to the others mortal wound for the next 6 months/two years/five years/rest of their natural life/afterlife, the faithful spouse cannot listen to talking that is not occurring, unless you count "I had an affair because I have poor boundaries around men and I failed to protect the marriage" as talking.

To my credit, I have been PERFECT on this point -PERFECT. It is the only answer I have ever given and I have resolutely refused to elaborate in any way, regardless of how his questions have been framed. He's asked me what he could have done differently and I uniformly respond "Not one thing. I had an affair because I have poor boundaries around men and failed to protect the marriage."

I'm wondering if it is common that the codependent people stopped talking to their partner long ago as doing so was alternately an exercise in masochism/futility.

Originally Posted By: Al
I also hear of Codependent people who live with an un-awake partner, TC. These people are aware of the distress in themselves and in their partner. But mostly they live in distress that their partner might get upset or angry. They know something in the marriage is really wrong, but don't know how to tell their sleeping partner. They generally know that if they continue on the path they are on, divorce will happen. They are often aware of the knife edge. Their Lizard is active almost 24/7 when their partner is around. They may relax when their partner is away or on a trip. Those are just tiny, secret divorces. Maybe an affair comes along. Maybe sickness, etc. But as they don't know what they want, since their own ability to put into words their own needs was atrophied in childhood, they don't go after it. They wait.... next to their sleeping, unaware partner.


You been watching me????

Originally Posted By: Al
If I were a Lizard, I would just hope it would all go away.


Have you met Lizzy? She is SO in control. I don't argue with her anymore.

Originally Posted By: Al
Master's don't dialogue. They talk at. They tell their partner and others to shut up. They try to push their listeners into a) silence and b) pretending to agree with the Masters. Masters are exhausted by having to push people around and having to use their temper. "Much easier to have people pretend to agree, so that I can go back to sleep."


It may look better from the outside, but I think this is a tortuous way to live.

Originally Posted By: Al
Codependent people don't dialogue. They, living on the edge of fear, monitor their partner's words to make sure they aren't blowing up or getting upset. They are often close to their partner but only to better be vigilant for trouble. They may call it dialogue, but it rarely is. Codependent people generally are exhausted by the terror they feel, Lizard active, as they listen to people. "Much easier to be alone or to have a sleeping blind Master next to me."


I KNOW this is a tortuous way to live.

Originally Posted By: Al
Ask them, "If I am thinking something, and I think it might upset you, would you rather I shared it anyway or rather I kept it a secret from you?"


Either I don't understand this or it is simply not in the realm of possibility for me. I suspect the latter.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 7: "Learning Communication Skills" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #113584
05/30/11 07:47 PM
05/30/11 07:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
For me, it is very hard for me to talk about my husband here. I believe that were I to humanize him or say much positive about him, I will be beaten about the head and shoulders with what a prince of a human being he is - indeed, approaching sainthood for taking me back - and what a POS I am for failing to recognize his nobility and prostrate myself at his feet five times a day in obeisance. That is what Lizzy thinks based upon the experience at the other place and how unfaithful spouses are characterized here - selfish, greedy, entitled, evil, alien - if I read more threads, I could no doubt add to that list, but I don't read many because I can't stand the dehumanizing. Lizzy is not fond of hearing how greedy, selfish, entitled and evil I am. You have to love that in your lizard.
I think you are doing fine to stay away from people who go in for villainizing (you or others) at any website, meeting etc. Seems to be a pretty common behavior in our cultures. I think it is that old "purity of indignation/outrage." I think my lizard recognizes that stuff pretty quick and guides me away.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I can't speak for DB, but with the exception of Mark, I haven't seen MB faithful spouses talking much about the specifics of the marital dynamic in place at the time of the affair.
So much a loss for everyone here. Looking at an affair as the product of two people, both struggling for some time seems most useful to me. I just like to radically level the playing field when understanding couple dynamics. I love to remove blame and innocence from the analysis.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Al
I say that this terror of aloneness is unconscious in the Master position, but really I mean that over time the Master will wake up to this terror. This awareness of their own terror can come slowly or quickly. The most common form of waking-up happens when their partner leaves.
This can only happen if their partner is talking. When the partner is advised they must table their emotional needs to tend to the others mortal wound for the next 6 months/two years/five years/rest of their natural life/afterlife, the faithful spouse cannot listen to talking that is not occurring, unless you count "I had an affair because I have poor boundaries around men and I failed to protect the marriage" as talking.
I see it a bit differently. I find that often one partner gets spooked cuz they aren't hearing from their partner. I actively encourage this alerting.

I've often said, "If you aren't hearing daily/often from your partner about what is going on in their world from their POV, you are probably in big doo-doo."

Or when individuals come in the office, they often complain about something their partner does. I will ask them, "Why do you think they do that?" The quick answer is,"I don't know." And I will respond, with a lot of gusto, "Wait a minute, hold on! You don't know what's going on in your partner that led to that behavior! Wow! are you in trouble. How come you don't know?" And then I will lead the way into PreValidation and curiosity and opening of communication channels.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
To my credit, I have been PERFECT on this point -PERFECT. It is the only answer I have ever given and I have resolutely refused to elaborate in any way, regardless of how his questions have been framed. He's asked me what he could have done differently and I uniformly respond "Not one thing. I had an affair because I have poor boundaries around men and failed to protect the marriage."
That response seems good to me for about a week. They I would want to open up a growingly wider channel of communication.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Have you met Lizzy? She is SO in control. I don't argue with her anymore.
I'd frame that a little differently, cuz I don't think you can ever argue with your Lizard. I think she is in SO need of you to take control. I think you can take care of her, better and better. As I started taking care of mine, he began over time to begin to trust me.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Al
Master's don't dialogue.....
It may look better from the outside, but I think this is a tortuous way to live.
Yep.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Al
Codependent people don't dialogue....
I KNOW this is a tortuous way to live.
Yep

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Al
Ask them, "If I am thinking something, and I think it might upset you, would you rather I shared it anyway or rather I kept it a secret from you?"
Either I don't understand this or it is simply not in the realm of possibility for me.
Tis your call. The goal is to alert the Master-ish person to the "fact void" they are living in. They don't know what is going on. The goal is to get their Lizard alert to their partner's silence. I want to wig out the bullying partner and invite them to building and maintaining safety for both people's Lizards. I think it is much easier for the Master to do this - to learn this lesson.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 7: "Learning Communication Skills" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #113639
05/30/11 09:54 PM
05/30/11 09:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Well, let's see. Steps, gentle ones, firm ones... hmmm.

My first step is to slow everything way down. I insert a phrase like "Wow!" or "Holy mackerral!" or "Wait a moment, here!" or whatever. My reason is to give my Lizard some space/time and keep it calm. As I gain time with this delaying tactic I may move into a kind of humorous/playful tone that I think fits the situation. I might add a lengthy, "Oh, heck I often have trouble with sentences like that'un."

My second step is to let them know I AM hearing them - probably use some sort of mirroring-like phrase - might only mirror the "hot words" using a kind of "take a moment here, I am pondering what you said." In your example, looking at the ground, "Hmm. Don't care. Agree. Right, Right." I want the other person's momentum stopped.

My third step is to address the situation around "right/wrong" or "agreement" or whatever word the person used. I might say, in again an kind of ruminating tone, "Right or wrong, who can tell?" (Remember I have a a whole Thaoist story to back that phrase up.) or "Agree. Hell, I haven't agreed with anyone since around 1994! Don't look to me for agreement." "Do you want me to say I agree when I don't? I'm not clear." I've got a bunch of these little sayings.
Step four is to continue to show interest in what I will call their view. "I'm glad to hear your point of view."

Last step is to encourage the other person to continue sharing what I have now reframed as their point of view, their belief, their idea, etc.

Summary. Get/keep my Lizard calm. Establish "my space" in the presence of the other person. Invite them to continue with their part of the conversation.

In the process I am watching for them to step outside these limits that I am placing on them. If they do, I may bluntly or gently and firmly withdraw.

I remember my toughest guy. He was full of himself and was paying me. He wanted what at first seemed like endless approval. As he would tell is almost uninterruptible stories, I would display thoughtful listening but would insert about every 10 minutes a quickie, "By the way I don't agree, but go on." It took him hours, 9 or so over many sessions, before he ground to a halt. Then he said, "Look I'm not paying you to agree with me or just listen. I need help." and I replied, "Therapy may now begin."

Our how culture is packed full of narcissist leaning critturs. I ran into this article the other day. Gotta learn to deal with them.

Hope this is more helpful. There are bunches and bunches of applications. Perhaps examples would help.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 7: "Learning Communication Skills" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #113686
05/30/11 11:11 PM
05/30/11 11:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Al
Tis your call. The goal is to alert the Master-ish person to the "fact void" they are living in. They don't know what is going on. The goal is to get their Lizard alert to their partner's silence. I want to wig out the bullying partner and invite them to building and maintaining safety for both people's Lizards. I think it is much easier for the Master to do this - to learn this lesson.


Well, I've told him I don't tell him how I feel about much of anything because he is not an emotionally safe person for me as he (1) criticizes, (2) fixitizes, and (3) rationalizes.

We had an incident the other night where I actually lost my temper at our youngest and told him how mad I was (I don't yell). My husband kept yelling at me "what is wrong with you?", and all I could think was "where to start?" I was able to say the next day "I needed you to care about what I was feeling and calm me down (unspoken: for a change) instead of escalating and telling me what to do, then tell me I was overreacting. I can't tell you how I'm feeling when you blow up at me."

My IC commented that my husband was probably a little freaked out because I am ALWAYS calm.

So how does that conversation go? I don't tell you how I feel because you do X doesn't feel right, but in the moment I freeze.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/30/11 11:11 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 7: "Learning Communication Skills" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #113705
05/31/11 12:04 AM
05/31/11 12:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,219
Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline
Board of Directors
Fiddler  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,219
Monterey, CA
Great example Al - just what I was looking for!

I appreciate that the first step is getting one's own Lizard feeling safe. That is such an important lesson, and one I have to repeatedly learn myself. IRL I can get triggered and react instead or respond from the heart. I also agree with slowing things down. My experience is that many people who talk very rapidly without giving pause for other input are, underneath, fearful that they won't be heard or are afraid of hearing different points of view, which would challenge their self-image.

I like your sayings, and they give me some things to incorporate. Since I prefer to avoid asking direct questions, I would translate them into statements for my own use.

Another simple statement "Is that so?" comes from the Zen tradition, and I'm sure you've heard of it.

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
"Therapy may now begin."
Great example! I'm imagining you speaking with a Yoda voice: "Ready to begin therapy, you are."



"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 7: "Learning Communication Skills" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #113742
05/31/11 01:01 AM
05/31/11 01:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Well, I've told him I don't tell him how I feel about much of anything because he is not an emotionally safe person for me as he (1) criticizes, (2) fixitizes, and (3) rationalizes.
I love that term "fixitize." I had been trained to fix things as a way of getting self-esteem. But thanks to Sandra I learned that frequently my fixing would just freak her out. She trained me to inquire, "Honey, is this one of those fixitize situations or one of those listen-to situations?" (I'm using your word.) She always knows which she wants.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
We had an incident the other night where I actually lost my temper at our youngest and told him how mad I was (I don't yell). My husband kept yelling at me "what is wrong with you?", and all I could think was "where to start?" I was able to say the next day "I needed you to care about what I was feeling and calm me down (unspoken: for a change) instead of escalating and telling me what to do, then tell me I was overreacting. I can't tell you how I'm feeling when you blow up at me."
Hmmm. Husband keeps yelling. Ugh. Silly goose he is.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My IC commented that my husband was probably a little freaked out because I am ALWAYS calm.
Yep. I hope so. Your calm probably ain't helping him to be safe. Instead it probably makes him live on the bleeding edge more. "When is all hell going to break loose? When will she finally stop putting up with me?"

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
So how does that conversation go? I don't tell you how I feel because you do X doesn't feel right, but in the moment I freeze.
How about, "Honey I love you. But if you want me around much longer you'd better learn how to make is so safe around here that I never have to freeze in front of you. I thought I'd give you a heads-up." Ohh. that's so long, how about writing it down and making 10 copies and drop then around the house, once a week or so.

Al's just being a bit perverse. Go for it, LG.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 7: "Learning Communication Skills" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #113747
05/31/11 01:17 AM
05/31/11 01:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: fddlr3
I appreciate that the first step is getting one's own Lizard feeling safe. I also agree with slowing things down. My experience is that many people who talk very rapidly without giving pause for other input are, underneath, fearful ....
I believe there is time to consider their status after AFTER my Lizard is relaxed.


Originally Posted By: fddlr3
I like your sayings, and they give me some things to incorporate.
Go for it!

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
"Therapy may now begin."
Great example! I'm imagining you speaking with a Yoda voice: "Ready to begin therapy, you are."[/quote]You got it! Yoda strikes again.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  star*fish 

Newest Members
Love_Smacked, starfire, JoyfulMimi, bruers, shattered72
2048 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
Hearts Blessing4
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
63 Marriage Facts1
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Updates Divorce Stats4
no more rainbow members?9
BR - The Art of War - Sun Tzu5
Questions & Answers About Marriage---responses from 7-10 year old kids4
seeing new members on mobile version5
Return of the Goddess31
Community Information
2048Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8500Topics
463376Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.019s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 3.2306 MB (Peak: 3.4197 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2021-10-20 23:03:37 UTC