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Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #119623
06/11/11 03:55 AM
06/11/11 03:55 AM
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Texas
Larry Offline
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This a place of sometimes quiet learning ED. And sometimes not so quiet. grin

Congratulations.

Larry


It's often the truth we hide from ourselves that causes the most damage in life.

My old email address no longer works.
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Larry] #119758
06/11/11 06:15 PM
06/11/11 06:15 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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It seems to me that sometimes the universe has a dark sense of humor.

I didn't discuss my decision to move on with my wife and yet at virtually the same time I took my ring off, she posted on FB the first song we waltzed to at our wedding 25 years ago. I doubt she's listened to it in 20 years.

Amazing.

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #119768
06/11/11 07:09 PM
06/11/11 07:09 PM
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2long Offline
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Tonight I decided to give up on my wife. I've decided the neighbour situation is the final straw and no progress can be made in those circumstances. I've taken my ring off and I'm accepting that we are going our separate ways. It's scary but it feels right now. I did the best I could to find a better path for us and our girls and it's not going to happen. I made big mistakes in our marriage and I've done a kind of penance for them. I blew my half and I have some more grieving to do but I've learned a lot. I'm a better man for it.


Hi ED:

I don't think I've posted 2 you before. But your words here made me sad. I remember feeling like that. My wife never left me, but she had an off-and-on affair for 11 years. After I found out, it 2k a 2ple of years, but I had a period where I used phrases like "giving up" and wanting 2 control outcomes, as if I knew (particularly at the time!) what the best outcome for me and my family should be.

Detachment shouldn't be about giving up. It should be about letting go. It 2k me years 2 accept that my wife's choices were hers 2 make, not mine 2 control, even if they seemed ultra-selfish or even majorly-s2pid 2 me.

And you know what? When I really did accept that as fact, not just parroted what I'd heard others say or wrote, our entire relationship started 2 change. I was ready 2 let go and end our marriage. When my wife truly realized that, she changed her entire atti2de around me. Rat Meat lives 2 states away, so I never had the "neighbor" issue. But even that shouldn't be a show-stopper. Simply, if your wife wants her marriage, she'll do whatever it takes 2 convince you of that. Even if it means selling her house. Ac2ally, I think a blatant si2ation like this one is more conducive 2 recovery than mine was - because the steps that can be taken 2 convince the betrayed spouse that the wayward is sincere about recovery are so obvious.

I told both our kids about the affair. My daughter, not long after I found out. She was 21 at the time. I told our son about 3 years ago, also when he was 21. I value honesty and truthfulness very highly. Your wife doesn't want her secret 2 come out because she knows the fairy-tale isn't real and won't do well under scrutiny. Your kids deserve your best efforts 2 help them 2 develop the best relationship skills they can at this stage. In the end, they will have 2 make their own judgments and go through their own learning experiences on their own paths 2 wisdom, but learning from the trials and tribulations of the 2 people who raised them can only help, IMHO.

-ol' 2long

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #119804
06/11/11 09:04 PM
06/11/11 09:04 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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Thanks for sharing your experience with me, 2long.

I hear you when you say detachment can be more about letting go than giving up. I do respect that point of view.

In my situation I've been actively giving my wife space for 10 months after doing a kind of Plan A for 6 months. I say kind of because I hadn't heard of it at the time. I just showed her the best of me everyday until my Lizard couldn't handle direct contact with the affair anymore.

When I stopped doing that I went dark for sometime. After several months she told me that she was no longer 'romanticly' involved with her boy and that he had broken it off with her shortly after I 'quit'. Since then I've been giving her space and working on myself 'visibly' as Al says while trying to develop a friendship.

She has been angry and stand offish and occasionally hostile with gusts of interest. I now believe that she has continued to be involved with her guy the whole time but 'not in a relationship' as she says and her patterns with me have just been the inverse of whatever was going on with him.

For the last 10 months we have been rotating in and out of our house a week at a time to keep things stable for our girls. Recently she bought a house right next door to her 'friend' and she'll move in there first week in August.

During this last phase of separation I've avoided other women, been very low key and tried to live my life in a way that doesn't freak her Lizard out.

Now I've decided that life is too short. Once she moves in, I don't see anything happening but more of her keeping me on a string. Hence my 'giving up' on her. By that I mean completely letting go and no longer taking her or her reactions into consideration as I move forward with my life.

We'll continue to have contact due to our kids, though I think I will avoid her new place (Lizard goes mental just driving through the neighbourhood now and she hasn't moved in yet), and I'll be friendly but detached. I'm dropping any pretense that I'm hanging in for her though.

I hope that gives you a little better idea where I'm coming from.

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #119836
06/11/11 10:27 PM
06/11/11 10:27 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
It seems to me that sometimes the universe has a dark sense of humor. I didn't discuss my decision to move on with my wife and yet at virtually the same time I took my ring off, she posted on FB the first song we waltzed to at our wedding 25 years ago. I doubt she's listened to it in 20 years. Amazing.
Really wonderful. Universe! The great smart-ass in the sky. Sure. Some years ago I found that the word God and all those other words began, for me to blend into the same thing. If you ever hear me talking about God, translate as Universe. God has, I believe, a fantastic sense of humor, hmmmm, and also weeps a lot. Love the irony.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121075
06/14/11 03:48 PM
06/14/11 03:48 PM
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Fiddler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Now I've decided that life is too short.
So you are now completely done with the marriage and any hope of resurrecting it.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #121120
06/14/11 05:07 PM
06/14/11 05:07 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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Yes, though I would definitely consider another relationship with my wife in different circumstances.

I don't foresee anything changing for the better given her new living arrangements and I've decided it's better for me to let go, move on and make the most of the rest of my life.

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121153
06/14/11 06:19 PM
06/14/11 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Yes, though I would definitely consider another relationship with my wife in different circumstances.
Maybe you have some idea of what those circumstances might be.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I don't foresee anything changing for the better given her new living arrangements and I've decided it's better for me to let go, move on and make the most of the rest of my life.
Even though a part of you still wishes for a change, you are accepting that there is nothing that can be done at this point to make it happen.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121228
06/14/11 07:47 PM
06/14/11 07:47 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Yes, though I would definitely consider another relationship with my wife in different circumstances.
I don't foresee anything changing for the better given her new living arrangements and I've decided it's better for me to let go, move on and make the most of the rest of my life.


A beautiful, clear description of the "normal hopelessness" that is the end to the Power Struggle for everyone, I believe. Tis the crux of the Map of Relationships. Three ways to go: Door #1, Door #2 or Door #3. Bummer of a place to be.

What do you plan to do, ED?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #121257
06/14/11 08:50 PM
06/14/11 08:50 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Yes, though I would definitely consider another relationship with my wife in different circumstances.
I don't foresee anything changing for the better given her new living arrangements and I've decided it's better for me to let go, move on and make the most of the rest of my life.


A beautiful, clear description of the "normal hopelessness" that is the end to the Power Struggle for everyone, I believe. Tis the crux of the Map of Relationships. Three ways to go: Door #1, Door #2 or Door #3. Bummer of a place to be.

What do you plan to do, ED?


I plan to move on with my life at this point. I'll focus on some of the integration stuff I'm doing with my IC and keep working on inproving my relationship skills (listening, removing mastertalk, practising recognising and enforcing boundaries) for my next relationship.

I've been enjoying some of the progress I'm making in my personal growth using the 'focusing' approach advocated in 'The Radical Acceptence of Everything' combined with Katie Byron's approach to examining my thoughts and beliefs in 'The Work'.

I think if my wife ever decides to give up her 'friend' and shows some interest in re-connecting with me, I'd like that, provided, of course, I haven't met someone else by then wink

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121285
06/14/11 09:41 PM
06/14/11 09:41 PM
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I guess in some ways it is a bummer place to be, and certainly it's not where I wanted to be, but I have to say I'm grateful for the opportunity I've been given to do some growing up.

I would never have chosen this path for myself but I don't think I would have awakened without the shock my wife gave me.

I think I'm a better father, a better friend and I like myself much better than the way I used to show up.

I just don't think it's working for me to stand around hoping one day my wife might call on me as her back up plan.

I put myself in this spot. I know I'm not a victim here. I made lots of mistakes while I was doing the best I could from where I was. I've wanted to repair the damage I did but I think now it's time to respect my wife's choices and move along.

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121300
06/14/11 10:12 PM
06/14/11 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I think if my wife ever decides to give up her 'friend' and shows some interest in re-connecting with me, I'd like that, provided, of course, I haven't met someone else by then wink
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I just don't think it's working for me to stand around hoping one day my wife might call on me as her back up plan.
While a part of you still wants to rescue the marriage, you recognize that it's not going to be happening. So you're completely clear about moving forward without her.

Maybe you could remind of the status of the divorce.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #121322
06/14/11 11:05 PM
06/14/11 11:05 PM
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Edmond Dantes Offline
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My wife has said she doesn't 'need' a divorce. She says the marriage is just a piece of paper to her and once the emotional and spiritual bond was broken the marriage was over for her.

She told me she was 'done' in February 2010 and we lived separately under the same roof until August 2010 without our children knowing while I tried to save the marriage. In August of last year we told the girls and started to rotate in and out of the house a week at a time. She has consulted a lawyer but has not proposed anything by way of a separation agreement.

I've been giving her financial support and we share the girls. No fights there.

I've got my lawyer preparing a proposal for a formal separation agreement now.

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121341
06/14/11 11:33 PM
06/14/11 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
My wife has said she doesn't 'need' a divorce. She says the marriage is just a piece of paper to her and once the emotional and spiritual bond was broken the marriage was over for her.
Then she would have no objections if you wanted to get a divorce. Maybe a divorce can't be done immediately in your state and the formal separation is necessary.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121727
06/15/11 09:36 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
My wife has said she doesn't 'need' a divorce.
I actually like what she is saying. Tis, I think, a bit like quitting a job and keeping the keys to the office. I think she is part in and part out. Her way of looking at "the piece of paper" I think is fine. Tis her way.



Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #121768
06/15/11 11:43 PM
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2long Offline
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Al:

Interesting perspective! I think a lot of people who've heard similar comments from their spouses might like 2 hear more about this.

Ac2ally, in my case it was me who said that 2 my wife. This was when she said 2 me, about 2 years before I discovered her affair, that "What if I want a divorce for our 25th anniversary?" I honestly didn't know what 2 say in response, or even what 2 think, as this came from right out of the blue (our marriage may have been mediocre at the time, but I didn't even know why). So I said "you said we didn't need a piece of paper 2 get married 25 years ago, so why do you think you need a piece of paper 2 get a divorce?"

I was being sarcastic and lashing out due 2 my confusion. I would characterize that response as not one of my best formulated/empathic/constructive of possible responses, LOL!

I think I do better now, but it 2k a lot of work!

-ol' 2long

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #121776
06/16/11 12:02 AM
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Your wife's position does make sense, Edmond. And you would be completely comfortable not getting a divorce but being separated indefinitely.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121915
06/16/11 03:12 AM
06/16/11 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: EdmondDantes
I'd find your thoughts about what, if anything, your H could do that would make it easier for you to fill your life with colours bold and bright very, very helpful LadyGrey.

Is there a way he could show up that would help you feel safer with him?


I've been a lawyer and a mom and I was probably a better lawyer than I was a mom during those years.

Then I was a mom. And let me be crystal clear here: it has been my honor and my privilege to be my children's mother.

Now that role is drawing to a close.

You see, all of MY stories are THEIR stories. I don't have an experience independent of them. I am his wife and their mother and everyone knows me in reference to those roles. I go somewhere and meet someone new and invariably I am introduced as "LordGrey's wife or Daughter's mother", never the converse.

Mr. Dantes, when was the last time YOU were introduced as Mrs. Dantes's husband?

And how many times has the converse been true? And how many times were those introductions in the context of you introducing not your WIFE but your EMPLOYEE.

I went to the dreaded "Back to School Night" when my oldest was a sophomore. You know "Back to School Night" -- created so you will appreciate the rich learning environment the school is providing, but in actual fact you have to go or your kid will be complaining all year about how you couldn't POSSIBLY understand how INCREDIBLY boring the biology teacher is because you couldn't be bothered to go to "Back to School" night like all of the OTHER PARENTS so you couldn't possibly understand.

You go.

I walked in the 7 minute period six session late and the teacher took one look at me and said "Oh, you are Suzie's mother. Sit there." I said "yes, I'm Suzie's mother. It is a terrible shame I don't have a name of my own."

Are you with me ED? Your wife's work life centered around you in a subordinate position. I can just imagine what you were like to live with -- and I do NOT mean that as a criticism as I think you know.

But where did she end and you and your daughters begin?

For me, having an affair felt like I was scraping emotional play doh off of me -- I drew a LINE.

This is where you end and I begin -- right here, this line, this moment. Because see? I AM an autonomous human being. I DO have the power to decide. My children will be FINE because I will make sure of it.

What could he do?

Allow me to try and fail at things that are far outside his comfort zone.

Celebrate that I want to manifest my spirit in new and unexplored ways.

GET OUT OF MY WAY.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #121928
06/16/11 03:39 AM
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I see it a little bit differently than Al. I don't think my wife is half in and half out, I think rather she prefers to keep a door open a crack if she sees no benefit to closing it permanently. It's this attitude that I refer to when I mention being a back up plan. I certainly don't fault her for taking this approach. I just think my wife would be content to tread water in the status quo for a long time seeing no real need to do anything differently. .

I'm not sure Fddlr3, what gave you the impression that I would be similarly content with a permanent separation. On the contrary, I like being in a committed relationship. I've embarked on a serious examination of my strengths and shortcomings since she dropped the bomb on me and I see that I have some more work to do before I think I'm ready to be the partner I want to be. I don't doubt though that as I get more comfortable in my own skin and begin my search for a new partner, I'll want to put a formal end to my marriage so I can start fresh with someone else. I think I'll know when to start that process.

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121946
06/16/11 04:48 AM
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Edmond:

That's what I felt as well, even though my wife didn't leave 2 conduct her affair. I've often been accused of being "old fashioned" when it comes 2 marriage. But I never thought that working long hours or spending many days out of town on a drill rig when my daughter was just 3 years old would have been thought of as neglect. Or that being proud 2 call my wife "my wife" would make her think I was claiming her as my property or trophy.

We're so s2pid when we're young and simply assuming that everyone understands what we mean by our expressions of love.

-ol' 2long.

Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #121985
06/16/11 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I'm not sure Fddlr3, what gave you the impression that I would be similarly content with a permanent separation.
Then you are clear that this is only a temporary measure and eventually you will decide to end the marriage if nothing changes. And somehow you are not okay doing that now.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #122009
06/16/11 03:08 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 2long
We're so s2pid when we're young and simply assuming that everyone understands what we mean by our expressions of love.-ol' 2long.
Yup, I found this too. Early on, in working with my wife, I found that I frequently assumed she could/should read my intentions. She should read my mind. And if she didn't read my mind, I was surprised or even angry.

I think it was a) truly s2pid, and b) the way I was raised.

I think babies instinctively think mommy and daddy know what I want, can read my mind. And I think we all have to be taught, on the way to becoming an adult, that doesn't work.

I think this retraining, to assist others at saying what is not said or hearing what has not been spoken, is a major part of learning good communication skills.

smile


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #122015
06/16/11 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: 2long
I never thought that working long hours or spending many days out of town on a drill rig when my daughter was just 3 years old would have been thought of as neglect. Or that being proud 2 call my wife "my wife" would make her think I was claiming her as my property or trophy.
So you were completely caught by surprise when these were expressed to you.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #122020
06/16/11 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I think this retraining, to assist others at saying what is not said or hearing what has not been spoken, is a major part of learning good communication skills. smile
Very important point Al, and what I have found to be one of the most important elements in communicating. This is what I mean by "coded messages." I find that "what has not been spoken" is often the most important part of what is being conveyed. And I have also found that validation(fddlr) often helps a person say "what has not been said." I find "mirroring" to not go far enough in this regard, since (according to my understanding) it addresses the words that have been spoken, not the unspoken message.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 6: "Romantic Love Ends" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #122023
06/16/11 03:33 PM
06/16/11 03:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,069
2long Offline
member
2long  Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,069
Originally Posted By: fddlr3
Originally Posted By: 2long
I never thought that working long hours or spending many days out of town on a drill rig when my daughter was just 3 years old would have been thought of as neglect. Or that being proud 2 call my wife "my wife" would make her think I was claiming her as my property or trophy.
So you were completely caught by surprise when these were expressed to you.


2 say the least! So much so that, even though my wife thought she was being clear that she needed more attention, I still thought that by simply explaining my perspective would be sufficient.

But of course, although she said she had feelings for someone else all those years ago, she neglected 2 tell me (for the next 11 years) that she was having an affair.

At first, I regretted all the wasted time when I found out 9 years ago. But soon, I recognized the need for the wake-up call. I wasn't "getting" her frustrations 20 years ago, in spite of her almost telling me all the truth at the time. Likewise, my "clarifications" of my perspective weren't gotten by her either.

Finally, I was able, though, 2 2rn the adversity in2 an oppor2nity for some personal growth spurts. I learned more about relationships in the first year after "d-day" than I had in the previous 27 years of our marriage.

-ol' 2long

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