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Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #146979
08/16/11 10:01 PM
08/16/11 10:01 PM
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D4MIL Offline
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Quote:
I see this, too. Seems to me it just makes for more spinning through Romantic Love, Power Struggle, Door#3 and start again. Or it makes for more time in the Power Struggle. Can either do the work, die. Just a matter of time.

i think some people think that romantic love is as good as it gets. and that's where the 'bar' is set. as you said, romantic love is short-lived. when it starts to die, the power struggle begins and the attempt is to regain romantic love because that's where we've set the bar for 'love'. one must erase that bar otherwise, you will cycle through this over and over again. the 'bar' for vintage love is way beyond the 'bar' set for romantic love. but you need to get rid of that romantic love 'bar' so you can work towards vintage love.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: D4MIL
the way i saw it was as if he was a child who wasn't allowed to go out until he finished his homework. he stomps his feet, pouts, screams, and says "i hate you!" .. one day, he'll know i had only good intentions.

But I think you can do a lot to speed up or slow down the coming of this day.

i'm interested in learning more about this. i'm at a standstill because i don't know what my other options are. i just think that maybe he'll figure it out if/when he makes a mistake. that could take forever. but i see no other way. i can't hand hold him .. i can't tell him .. he's gotta learn on his own.

Quote:
Yup. The way I see it, to fix this situation, first you gotta take care of your Lizard. That's your job. All about learning Boundaries and good Boundary Skills. Later you can work on his. First things first.

my hope is that we are at choice point.

it's funny, when i mentioned that both our lizards were scared/unsafe, i was thinking of what way i could calm his lizard. the focus is always on HIS lizard and not my own. however, if he came face to face with me today .. i would not know what to say and be paralyzed with fear.

maybe i do need to work on my own lizard first.

Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #146994
08/16/11 10:48 PM
08/16/11 10:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,069
2long Offline
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2long  Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I think there is a fairly common line of conflict between those in Door #2 and all others on the Map. I recall speaking on the radio once with a person who was in #2, the show host, who vehemently denied that true love (i.e. Romantic Love in a lengthy relationship) was possible. "People just have to adjust to a life of getting along and give up the silly romance. Like I have." She seemed actually quite angry at me for "speaking of something that doesn't exist." Her radio show.


I gotta 'fess out: Though powerful, romantic love is chemical, and thus not real (unless we really are nothing more than assemblages of a bunch of chemical reactions). But there are al2gether 2 many people with 2 many terms 2 describe the same things.

*Greg Baer would equate romantic love with conditional love and vintage love as unconditional love.

*Willard Harley would cheer in favor of romantic love as the whole reason for existence... ...well, for having relationships and getting married, at least. He would probably call vintage love 'deep caring love', though he fails 2 recognize that it's the more substantial "form" of love, compared 2 romantic love.

*M Scott Peck would tell you (and rightfully, I believe) that romantic love, however powerful an emotion, isn't love at all. Real love is not a feeling, but a conscious choice.

*Frank Pittman would warn that believing that romantic love is the goal, and that it can last a lifetime, is a foolish and dangerous notion. He doesn't call love "vintage love" either, but I believe he's talking about the same thing you're talking about. He'd equate wisdom with love gained by choosing 2 love even if we're not "in the mood" at the time. [edited to add: I agreed with him, and got banned from MB for it whistle]

Everybody gets 2 choose what they want 2 believe, of course. Personally, I respect people who choose 2 be loving, even if they don't feel loving at the moment, over "following their heart" which, "it can be shown that", often leads people 2 do really dumb, hurtful things 2 those they claim 2 love. Like having an affair.

-ol' 2long

Last edited by 2long; 08/16/11 10:51 PM.
Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #147053
08/17/11 12:30 AM
08/17/11 12:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Very good and 2thepoint. Tho I think you missed my point that has to do with this thread. I am used to the idea that most people/couples give up seeking Vintage Love - Door #2. That's fine by me.

But they also tend to shame, disparage, put down, etc. people who are going for Vintage Love, who are working through the troubles along the way. The often assert (very MasterTalkie stuff here) that unconditional or Vintage Love doesn't exist. They can be remarkable cruel. I find it one way of recognizing where they are at themselves. And I can recommend treating them with respect and a bit of caution.

A friend once said, "They are like a person who bought a lemon (car that had tons of bugs) and now rail against all cars. Or one bad marriage means all marriages are bad. Or 50 bad marriages means the 51st is bad. For heavens sake, how many do you need?"


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #147062
08/17/11 12:45 AM
08/17/11 12:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,069
2long Offline
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2long  Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Very good and 2thepoint. Tho I think you missed my point that has to do with this thread. I am used to the idea that most people/couples give up seeking Vintage Love - Door #2. That's fine by me.


I'm used 2 the idea that most 2ples don't even seek vintage love, because they aren't aware of its existence or don't acknowledge it's reality. Or, they're under the impression (like most young people are) that romantic love is love and is the goal of being alive. And so, in their ignorance of vintage love and their easy ability 2 be overwhelmed by romantic attractions, they're willing 2 dump the one they have 2 "love the one they're with" or want 2 be with (at all costs).

Quote:
But they also tend to shame, disparage, put down, etc. people who are going for Vintage Love, who are working through the troubles along the way. The often assert (very MasterTalkie stuff here) that unconditional or Vintage Love doesn't exist. They can be remarkable cruel. I find it one way of recognizing where they are at themselves. And I can recommend treating them with respect and a bit of caution.


"They" aren't me. I've been a believer in unconditional love for a long time, now.

Quote:
A friend once said, "They are like a person who bought a lemon (car that had tons of bugs) and now rail against all cars. Or one bad marriage means all marriages are bad. Or 50 bad marriages means the 51st is bad. For heavens sake, how many do you need?"


50 bad marriages is a hobby, not a commitment. ROFL

-ol' 2long

Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #150391
08/25/11 03:41 AM
08/25/11 03:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 37
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Forest Mama Offline
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I've been reading this thread with interest. I would say that for the last couple of years I've been in Door #2, although I didn't realize that entirely until coming here. I had told myself that the best situation would be a platonic marriage, where I could just "be friends" with him and not have to deal with any intimacy - emotional or sexual. That felt like a safe place, which is why I wanted it.

Several people have asked why stay in Giving Up mode, why not leave? I can think of several reasons, all of which happen to apply to me right now. I'm a stay-home mum who gave up a lucrative career to raise my kids and run our little farm. I have no regrets over that choice, but when faced with the prospect of divorce it became clear that I could not support myself and my children. Add to that a husband who, when he is hurt, lashes out like a dangerous tantruming child with no boundaries. He would stop at nothing to make sure I "paid" for hurting him, including making me fight for every dime I got from him. He would be mean, nasty, and would not hide this from the kids (as experience has shown). There would be no possibility of an amicable divorce, where things are settled reasonably and for the good of the kids. Thus I have often wished he would have an affair and want to leave me so that perhaps he would feel guilty and then not be such an ass during the divorce negotiations. OTOH he could be just as selfish if it meant keeping everything for the new woman. Don't know.

And so, having faced the prospect of divorce just a couple weeks ago, and seen what a holy terror it would have been for me and the children, dooming them to a life of watching a bitter fight between their parents, etc...I decided it was better to stay. Yes, it sucks. But it sucks a lot better then the alternative. At least now that we've decided to stay together (whatever that looks like) he is sometimes in a good mood and then life is really nice and pleasant. He still gets into bad moods and then he can be nasty, but not as nasty as when he thought we were splitting up. Now he still has something to lose, whereas in divorce mode he felt he had nothing to lose and acted accordingly.

If I were able to support myself and the kids without needing his help, if I could be sure that he would act in a mature manner and not dump his emotional baggage onto our kids, if I thought we could have an amicable split I'd go for it in a heartbeat.

Of course with everything I've learned here, about Vintage Love, etc. I at least acknowledge that there is work we haven't done or tried yet, and so there is a possibility, and I'm wrestling right now with whether to commit to that sort of thing (assuming he can be brought on board with this Road Map). My fear is of opening myself up to being hurt and disappointed all over again. Giving Up feels so much safer. I'm having a very hard time convincing my Lizard to come out...


Me 43. H 46. Two kids ('02, and '04), oldest has Asperger's Syndrome, youngest high-functioning autistic. M 10 years, T 11.5. Headed for divorce in Aug '11; now on the path to rebuilding our marriage thanks to MA!
Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: Forest Mama] #150464
08/25/11 02:46 PM
08/25/11 02:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Great sharing, Forest Mama.

Seems you are pretty aware of where you are, the choices you've made, those great reasons for making those choices, and the choices ahead of you. Sometimes that is the way to take care of your Lizard. I imagine many share your thinking and decisions.

Thanks for being here.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: D4MIL] #154178
09/06/11 07:41 AM
09/06/11 07:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,806
NewEveryDay Offline
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NewEveryDay  Offline
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Originally Posted By: d4mil
i'm interested in learning more about this. i'm at a standstill because i don't know what my other options are. i just think that maybe he'll figure it out if/when he makes a mistake. that could take forever. but i see no other way. i can't hand hold him .. i can't tell him .. he's gotta learn on his own.


D4MIL, I can so relate to what you are sharing. I don't know if you know my story, I was the one who filed, because it was clear that I wasn't going to get a partner to work with in my marriage. And after that, including through and after the divorce, some things changed, and that's an unexpected wonderful blessing, more than I had any rational reason to hope for. But he's still not *here* to where it would make sense to think that we would work on a relationship together. So I go out on dates, and that's nice and all, but I hardly know these folks, as opposed to my ex, who I love very deeply. I'll be honest, I think about chucking it to trying to reconcile. It helps me to reread this article, http://www.alturtle.com/blog/_archives/2007/11/25/3375630.html

Quote:
What got me to thinking about this study was the question of How long should you wait? Lets say you are a Clinging guy and your partner is an Avoiding gal. So she leaves you and you learn all about What To Do When He/She Leaves. So you give up on pursuing her, you get into therapy, you learn, your practice patience, and you wait. But how long?


Hydin, I think this may be a good article for you to read to get insight into your situation, too.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Topic 6a: "Living Without Romantic Love" - Building Trust [Re: NewEveryDay] #154289
09/06/11 04:02 PM
09/06/11 04:02 PM
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D4MIL Offline
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D4MIL  Offline
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Quote:
D4MIL, I can so relate to what you are sharing. I don't know if you know my story, I was the one who filed, because it was clear that I wasn't going to get a partner to work with in my marriage. And after that, including through and after the divorce, some things changed, and that's an unexpected wonderful blessing, more than I had any rational reason to hope for. But he's still not *here* to where it would make sense to think that we would work on a relationship together. So I go out on dates, and that's nice and all, but I hardly know these folks, as opposed to my ex, who I love very deeply. I'll be honest, I think about chucking it to trying to reconcile. It helps me to reread this article, http://www.alturtle.com/blog/_archives/2007/11/25/3375630.html

thanks for the link, NED.

i don't know if i have the courage to send a note like that - to say i'm only going to wait x months before i move on. it's kind of moot because we've been separated for around 20 months now and we haven't spoken to one another for over a year.

we "communicate" via our attys but even then, the communication is very limited and only on our finances.

i agree with the example of the letter in the link from al's site. i have learned about my part in a relationship and i want a chance to practice those skills. but i only want to work with my ex. i'm not legally divorced yet and dating is not for me. at this point in time, i'm not willing to make an effort to look pretty for someone i don't know.

i've been asked many times why i can let go of someone who treated me the way stbx did. i know that he is inexperienced with relationships. but i never stopped believing in him.

most people say that they never stopped loving someone. i never stopped believing in stbx. people see the outer shell .. the unpolished, abrasive exterior. i see his flaws and imperfections, but i also see the potential in him. it's unfortunate that he is locked in a toxic relationship with his parents. i may never see his potential come to fruition. i think that is such a sad loss.

but i never stopped believing in him, despite what others say.


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