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WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? #147388
08/17/11 09:19 PM
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AtTheEnd? Offline OP
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This subject came up in another thread and felt it deserved it's own. What brings the WS/WAS out of their "fog"? How long does it take? What is the next step for the WS? How do they feel? Where is the BS at this point? How often does this snapping out of it happen (possibly never)? Once they our out of it, do they want to return, or do they just move onto another relationship?

Feel free to add more and expand on this subject.

-AtTheEnd?

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #147391
08/17/11 09:25 PM
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Does it matter if it's pre or post D?

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #147397
08/17/11 09:40 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I can tell you that my H did not snap me out of the fog. A friend did not snap me out of the fog. A family member did not snap me out of the fog.

Disgust with my own behavior and deceit snapped me out of the fog. The unrelenting tapping of my conscience, the unescapable reality of what I was doing. I wasn't woo'ed out, begged out, planned out...I saw what I had become.....I couldn't stand it....I tried to keep going.....I couldn't do it. The A ended, but that wasn't enough. I tried to be a better wife for a few weeks but that wasn't enough. I had to confess. Because him knowing was......the only right solution at the time.

And if I had any doubt as to whether what I had done was inexcusable....his hurt and anger and the way it affected the kids......yeah....the last of the fog dissipated. But there was nothing H did to woo me back or show me how superior he was.....because he had no idea.

Now sometimes the BS finds out, and that makes it different. But still....it's just like any other life change. If it doesn't come from the person who needs to change.....it isn't really change. And no matter how nicely we try to package control.....we just can't control another person.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #147475
08/18/11 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
Once they our out of it, do they want to return, or do they just move onto another relationship?


Well, I don't think my X has come out of the fog, and may never, but I and the OMW exposed the first affair and it imploded as a result. At that point, my X was just PISSED OFF!!! Within 3 weeks she had a new guy sleeping at my house. nod

Hoping to hear from some others that have experience.


Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Danf] #147490
08/18/11 12:55 AM
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I see these threads -- like the "Why" thread --as wanting a single, dispositive, satisfactory answer.

I appreciate the need to lump us all in under the "wayward" category and assign us a specific script, like rewriting the marital history, and motivations, like being selfish and entitled.

I am unconvinced that that is helpful towards reconciling marriages.

I believe every answer is as unique as the people involved.

For me, I didn't "snap" out if it. I white knuckled through it because I KNEW I should NOT be making decisions in my state of mind, and I wanted the affair over so I could take a steely eyed look at my marriage and then file for divorce.

Not a reason I have heard anywhere which highlights to me the futility of trying to assign a single set of reasons to any point in the continuum.



Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #147523
08/18/11 02:00 AM
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No ladygrey no lumping, I find this helping me in the hell I am in, I really greatly appreciate anything said by anyone.

I want to say, I found out as they were driving by, long story short we moved and rocky was the road, I wanted to talk to not act like it didn't happen, he wanted to act like it didn't happen. He layed there one day saying he was a senior citizen waiting to die. He said the war on tv was too depressing for us to go for drives, a park, things together. Within days he left and then I heard how he like to talk just not to me and such terrible mean things it was like talking to the devil, so much for the sadness of the war.

I really want to get out of this in my mind, so.

heremainsfaithful, yes no one can control another, and it means nothing unless coming from inside each one of us.

The most confounding thing I am feeling is, not being able to talk to WS. If I could, just talk about this, maybe I would be fine moving on. But to hold it in, I am a talker, and a worrier, and so that is a combo of frustration.

I don't want anyone lumped, heremainsfaithful mentioned something on another thread and wow it really helped me, it did. I am a mess.

I don't want anyone offended. You are right ladygrey, every answer is unique, but, here I am and others that are a shattered tattering and it helps us.

tink

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #147525
08/18/11 02:05 AM
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i snapped out of it when OM chose the beach over me. true story.

(not that i don't think the beach is freakin' awesome)


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147529
08/18/11 02:08 AM
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the beach? you weren't ready he left without you never to be seen again?

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #147540
08/18/11 02:24 AM
08/18/11 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: tinkerbell

The most confounding thing I am feeling is, not being able to talk to WS. If I could, just talk about this, maybe I would be fine moving on.

tink


Tink, this really struck me. It has been years and years since I viewed my husband as my confidant, but I do remember that urge to sort through my feeling about him with....him.

And I think all along he viewed me as his confidant. I won't share some things out of respect for him, but I was astonished - truly slack jawed - at how important I was to him.

Who knew?


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #147547
08/18/11 02:34 AM
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tink... forgive me, but your assumption made me laugh. we did NOT have plans to "escape into the sunset together" and live happily ever after at the beach. far from it.

OM was at the beach with his wife and a few other couples. they were renting a beachfront condo for the week. OM told me he would only be at the beach for 2 days, and then return home to work and spend some time with me (his wife was planning to stay the entire week with their friends).

OM did return home for a day, tied up some loose ends at work, and then headed back to the beach the very next day. his reasoning was that he could chat with me online, at the beach, just as easily as he could chat with me from home.

i knew i was done at that moment.


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147556
08/18/11 02:51 AM
08/18/11 02:51 AM
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For menmy stbx awoke from her fog when I moved on with
my life and started to date ow. It took 14 months,


Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #147564
08/18/11 03:01 AM
08/18/11 03:01 AM
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There is no one size fits all or magic pill that works on a WS. Anymore than 1 drug makes a WS.

Given that POV, what does bring the WS out of the fog? One strong thing that often works is $$ or the lack thereof. Remember WS/OP and the A is built on greed. Take that POV and work from there. Anything tied with greed put in reverse helps kill the A.

However, if $$ is not a factor, then the options get less. Sometimes the WS comes to their senses, most don't. Since the A is built on greed, sometimes the WS and OP's own greed put them at odds and breaks the A.

Where the BS is at that point will vary. All the more reason for the BS to identify their boundaries (personal and marital), implement them, make changes, secure finances and family, then move forward.

IF the WS comes back, it s/b as an Xws NOT a Ws. An Xws with a recovery plan is what is needed. Take me back as is and let's split the bills is not a good start. Slows or kills recovery. Remember the BS has been through a lot and their tolerance level can hit the critical stage.

There's more.....

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Orchid2] #147577
08/18/11 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
Since the A is built on greed


I'm not sure that is always true. I wonder if some affairs aren't built on anger and grief and a level of despair that would be positively SHOCKING to the faithful spouse were the unfaithful spouse ever given the room to express it.

I've read pretty much everything out there on the web on the subject, and seen not one program which allows for that.

Books do. Al does.

I'm trying to be the difference I want to see.

Originally Posted By: orchid
Remember the BS has been through a lot and their tolerance level can hit the critical stage.


Remember that some unfaithful spouses have been through a lot and their tolerance levels can hit a critical stage.

It isn't as simple as people seem to desperately want it to be.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 08/18/11 03:28 AM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #147584
08/18/11 03:35 AM
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orchid,

re: the A is built on greed

i don't get this? you mean if the WS realizes he/she can't financially support both the M and the A, then the M might have the upperhand... and the WS will likely return to the M to save $$? thus knocking them out of the fog?

trying to understand. thanks, marie


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147586
08/18/11 03:40 AM
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My X said that she "didn't care about the money." "She would survive somehow." "It's all about the money for you."

Well she cares about the money now. Still doesn't seem to care about the family though. Even if she did, after all the damage that has been done, I don't know that I could forgive her. Ever.


Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #147647
08/18/11 09:02 AM
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Justification of an A is not healthy to any M. If the M was already rocky due to other issues, then deal with the issues. What benefit to have an A to fix a M? Show me the one where the A improved or saved the M and I will show you 100 broken M and families.

The A is based on greed and a cowardly act.

Fix the M or get a D instead of bringing in other people into an already hurt R.

Even Xws' know the A is not a recommended solution.

The question is about WS', not Xws'.

Orchid


Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147648
08/18/11 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
orchid,

re: the A is built on greed

i don't get this? you mean if the WS realizes he/she can't financially support both the M and the A, then the M might have the upperhand... and the WS will likely return to the M to save $$? thus knocking them out of the fog?

trying to understand. thanks, marie


Marie:

You have it backwards.

When the WS realizes they have to support the A and the M, the M is the one that goes...

When the A burns thru ALL the $$ and the AP dumps them because they are broke, unemployed, maxed out on the credit cards, then they might come back to the M because the BS may be willing to help them dig out.

Financial issues have a tendency to help De-Fog wayward ones. Sometimes it just makes them worse. They make all the bad financial decisions that they have made your fault.

SFB


Finding an ethical way to deal with pain, fear, disappointment etc..is part of the experience of becoming a stronger person...one who is driven by compassion instead of compulsion...ie I have a legitimate reason to be stressed out right now...however, my response to it will determine how others percieve me, and myself. (quoting Star*Fish)
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147649
08/18/11 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
orchid,

re: the A is built on greed

i don't get this? you mean if the WS realizes he/she can't financially support both the M and the A, then the M might have the upperhand... and the WS will likely return to the M to save $$? thus knocking them out of the fog?

trying to understand. thanks, marie


The A is built on greed, look at what the WS is willing to risk to keep or justify the A. Is that a selfless or selfish act?

$$ has not emotion. One either has it or not. WS' tend to have a broken calculator in their head. I recall my WS (at the time) tell me that as long as I paid the bills he would continue to spend without a care to fund the A. Ow blamed me for lack of funds. As soon as I realized my drive to pay our bills was enabling the A, the debt started piling but I was not longer enabling the A. This put a real damper on the A since they pair of whatnuts couldn't go play anymore.

Remember this is about the status of a WS not an Xws. Once reality starts showing up on the horizon, it is usually a matter of when that the Ws begins to shed their WS skin.

From your experiences what have you seen knock some Xws' to their senses?

Remember this is a general statement, not a hard fast rule. Still as soon as the BS stops being manipulated into enabling the A, the better. In many cases it helps kill the A.

No guarantees though.

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Orchid2] #147692
08/18/11 01:30 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I see greed in many ways. There is greed for $$. But there are other types of greed.

I never saw my A in terms of greed. At the time I would have said the opposite - I would have said I was starving and the A was about survival (I know this is wrong thinking; just sharing my thought THEN). But the greed came in when my need took precedence over my family and my morals. And when I wanted both my family AND the A. I would have said I didn't. I would have said then that I didn't want H and was just sticking around because he needed my paycheck and the insurance (he was in school). But there were ways around that - separation so he could still be on the insurance, him slowing down school and getting another job....Me paying alimony.

I was greedy in that I wanted what I wanted without it having to disrupt the rest of my life or make me feel guilty. Was I desperate? In some ways yes. Was my M lonely and invisible and sex-starved and dark? Absolutely. But I DID have choices.....the easiest and most convenient one FOR ME at the time was to stay married and not be the "bad guy" while having something else secret to "scratch my itch." Again, at the time I never would have called it that because even wayward I knew how bad THAT sounded. So I dressed it up and made it all "Bridges of Madison County."

I should have just SAID "I cannot do this anymore," and then if things did not change I should have left. But still....I keep coming back to snapping out of it. I am basing this strictly on knowing H for 24 years.....IF he had found out before I confessed....I would have had a brief window to decide, and then he would have been gone. G-O-N-E. There would have been no six months or a year or five years of "being the better option." It would have been "Stop this." And then there would have been "We're done....and I'm going to try to get the kids since you are boinking their X teacher."

And if down the road after a D or whatever I had come to my senses and he was still open....THEN he would have talked reconciliation. But not until it was done and I was repentant.

And IMO....THAT is how it should be.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #147709
08/18/11 01:53 PM
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I snapped out of it when I caught FOM in a lie and realized I was #2 in his life. I didn't like the thought of being #2 and ended it. Yes, I should have known this all along, but all the other lies made me believe differently at the time.

Hindsight being what it is I was #2 the whole time, just didn't see it.


Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Lifechoice] #147763
08/18/11 03:41 PM
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Quote:
from orchid: The A is built on greed, look at what the WS is willing to risk to keep or justify the A. Is that a selfless or selfish act?


i consider greed and selfishness to be two separate emotions/sins (tho, i agree that they are similar in nature).

no doubt, affairs are acts of selfishness.

but greed? i think that's a strong statement and truly depends on the aggressiveness (and possibly monetary/job status) of the WSs.

i agree that a BS should NOT be funding an on-going affair. i would even more strongly state that i do not think a BS should be "funding" an on-going A in any way, shape, or form (be it meeting monetary needs, emotional needs, security needs, etc.).

Quote:
from orchid: Remember this is about the status of a WS not an Xws. Once reality starts showing up on the horizon, it is usually a matter of when that the Ws begins to shed their WS skin.


i was attempting to answer the original question using my WS brain (even tho i am a FWS at present).

perhaps the original question was meant more for the WS that has actually left the marital home?-- whereas my A never reached that state. i left the A prior to being discovered and on my own free will.

Quote:
From your experiences what have you seen knock some Xws' to their senses?

  • when one WS is willing to D but the AP is not
  • when the WS feels smothered by the AP
  • when the WS feels underappreciated by the AP
  • when the WS is forced to choose the M or the AP
  • when the WS is being threatened or blackmailed by the AP
  • when the WS is being threatened or blackmailed by the BS
  • when the WS is being threatened or blackmailed by the AP's BS
  • when the WS does the math and decides to stay put
  • when the WS realizes the grass might not be greener on the OS
  • when the WS has a public reputation to consider
  • when the WS is being pressured from family/friends to stay M'd
  • when the WS was never emotionally involved with AP


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147768
08/18/11 04:02 PM
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In my situation, the fog lifted after the affair was exposed. I contacted the OW husband's brother and SIL (as well as some other family members, but the one couple was the primary contact) because I could not get in touch with OWH. Of course, they talked with OW and OWH. Needless to say, she was ticked as was my H. However, within days the affair was over. Within days after the affair was over we were back in the counselor's office at H's request. Not too long after that he was talking reconciliation.

I'm not sure if it was the exposure or the affair ending that actually brough my FWH out of the fog. Probably a combination.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #147781
08/18/11 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
This subject came up in another thread and felt it deserved it's own. What brings the WS/WAS out of their "fog"? How long does it take? What is the next step for the WS? How do they feel? Where is the BS at this point? How often does this snapping out of it happen (possibly never)? Once they our out of it, do they want to return, or do they just move onto another relationship?

Feel free to add more and expand on this subject.

-AtTheEnd?


Aren't you making this more complicated than necessary?

Why does it matter?

What does it say about you that you would feel the need to wait for a WAS to come out of their fog when they're having an affair/relationship with another person when they should be in a committed relationship with you?

Do you think so little of yourself and equate such low value to yourself that you should wait your turn to be with your WAS after they're done with the affair relationship they're currently having? If you're going to consider waiting for them, maybe ask them if you can watch them when they're being intimate with each other, if you have to wait, might as well sit and enjoy the show for as long as it lasts right? Might even learn some new moves maybe?

If you're waiting for your WAS to snap out of their "fog", then you aka "the BS" (nice term) are living in limbo, waiting for someone else to make a decision with regards to how you should live your life. Does that really work for you?

If your husband/wife wants to be you, they'll do what it takes to be with you, they'll end the affair, they'll apologize, they'll work on your relationship, they will make you a priority - that's when they want to be with you.

When they don't want to be with you, they do what a WAS does, they do their thing, they don't pay attention to you, they don't care about what effects having an affair with another person does to you because they're all about taking care of themselves and being with the person they want to be with.

What should the LBS do?
Let them go, move on with your life without them, the LBS that stays where they are waiting for the WAS to make a decision will in the end, wind up up without a spouse and will have wasted a ton of time in the process just to find out what they currently already know, that their WAS doesn't want to be with them.

What tends to jolt quite a few WAS's into second guessing their decisions and consider going back to their spouses that they cheated on? When the LBS (you) shows them that you don't want them anymore and that you've moved on with your life which includes (dare I say it) social interaction (aka dating) with members of the opposite sex. When you finally make that decision and really move on with your life and just enjoy a great life for yourself instead of acting depressed, emotional and angry about the situation, you will end up feeling much better if not great, the pressure of pursuing your cheating spouse will no longer burden your shoulders, the pressure of coming up with a million ways to win back your cheating spouse will be gone and you will finally experience living in the moment for yourself and realize just how precious your life really is and that if your cheating spouse doesn't want to be with you, you will be fine, better than fine, you will be great because you will consider it their loss, not yours. You have taken back control of your life and made a decision to live a great one without your cheating spouse and since you have stopped waiting for your spouse to snap out of their "fog", you have made the decision from them and taken back control from them that they have over your life.

Once you have accomplished this,
you may possibly even find your spouse warming up to you again, finding reasons to be with you, to make contact with you, to phone, text and email you, to friend you on crackbook, to ask you how you're doing, ask you out for a coffee or drink sometime, you may find yourself asked out for dinner, you may find that they start making a lot of physical contact with you when they are near you, touching you, almost invading your personal space to be near you, bumping into you at odd places (grocery store, gym, movies), you may find them buying you gifts or doing favors for you out of the blue, you may find that they give you cards and remember your birthdays and take you out for dinner when previously you may have been used to them forgetting your birthday altogether.

This is all very possible, and it may not happen at all.

Either way, you'll be ok because you've taken back control of your life and moved on without your spouse, it is their loss, let them work for you if they really want to be with you - chasing and waiting for a cheating spouse never works, ever.




Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #147785
08/18/11 05:03 PM
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rob x Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Orchid2
Since the A is built on greed


I'm not sure that is always true. I wonder if some affairs aren't built on anger and grief and a level of despair that would be positively SHOCKING to the faithful spouse were the unfaithful spouse ever given the room to express it.

I've read pretty much everything out there on the web on the subject, and seen not one program which allows for that.

Books do. Al does.

I'm trying to be the difference I want to see.


Originally Posted By: orchid
Remember the BS has been through a lot and their tolerance level can hit the critical stage.


Remember that some unfaithful spouses have been through a lot and their tolerance levels can hit a critical stage.

It isn't as simple as people seem to desperately want it to be.


I've read this point a few times LG, in similar posts you've made and others have made, do you feel you can't be completely honest with your spouse? Or couldn't be honest with them at the time? What held you back? Why not just spit it out or yell it out for that matter?

"Hey you, I'm not happy, you don't take care of my needs, if you don't change what you're doing, I'm going to find someone else to be with because I can't continue being in this relationship anymore the way it is right now, I've been feeling like this forever and I finally need to let you know that I'm at my breaking point."

Or something like that.

I think sometimes people think it's more difficult or make it more difficult because it's quite possible they've been used to covering up how they really feel for quite some time that when they're finally ready to spill the beans, they can't because of the habit they've taught themselves of holding back for fear of hurting the other person, for fear of the other person's reaction, etc.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #147818
08/18/11 06:11 PM
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Brotherly Love
gr8 day 2b alive Offline
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Quote:
I think sometimes people think it's more difficult or make it more difficult because it's quite possible they've been used to covering up how they really feel for quite some time that when they're finally ready to spill the beans, they can't because of the habit they've taught themselves of holding back for fear of hurting the other person, for fear of the other person's reaction, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree.
Communication in the most direct form is the best way to express one's feelings.


Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #147819
08/18/11 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: gr8 day 2b alive
I wholeheartedly agree.
Communication in the most direct form is the best way to express one's feelings.


I agree completely.

However, you need to be completely honest with yourself, before you can be honest with anyone else.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #147823
08/18/11 06:21 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I will say that I treid to be honest early on....to very bad reception....so I tried to just....push down the concern/hurt. Then I tried really hard to be good enough. Then I tried not to care. This was interspersed with other attempts to be honest. Then my last attempt to be honest really blew up everywhere. I backed off a bit....threw myself into several months of HNHN need meeting for him.....with no change.

Then something in me just died, and I quit. And then I let a friendship get too familiar. At first it was all "theoretical." And by the time I realized it really could become an A...I was so angry and hard and....starving I didn't care. I just wanted what I wanted. So I took it. And it was horribly horribly wrong. But there it is.

In early 2005 when I...died and gave up, I should have left. I didn't. And I hurt him and our kids in a terrible way.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: herfuturesbright] #147831
08/18/11 06:46 PM
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MyRevelation Offline
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hrf,

You are not a person I would define by my previous post. Your posts ring with a sincerity and honesty that is not present in other WS's. I see you as a person who is painfully honest with THEMSELVES. You may have "pushed stuff down" in the past, but the hrf we know here today is, if nothing else, HONEST!!!

To my mind, that is what gives you such credibility on these topics, even from the hardline BH's like myself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #147833
08/18/11 06:51 PM
08/18/11 06:51 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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I can't undo what I did. But if something about it can warn a person on the brink of an A....or give a BS some perspective on the idiocy their WS is displaying...then at least something good can come from the past, so to speak.

Not that it is the same thing, but I view it a lot like those former drunk drivers who go to schools and share their terrible story of hitting someone in order to maybe get through to some teen sitting on the bleachers who might have otherwise gotten drunk after a ballgame and tried to drive home.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #147834
08/18/11 06:51 PM
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ohmy_marie Offline
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Quote:
from rob x: "Hey you, I'm not happy, you don't take care of my needs, if you don't change what you're doing, I'm going to find someone else to be with because I can't continue being in this relationship anymore the way it is right now, I've been feeling like this forever and I finally need to let you know that I'm at my breaking point."


forgive me, but perhaps you're assuming that that type of discussion will result in honest communication-- and NOT be followed up with, "i don't have time for this crap, i'll be late for my tee time."


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147841
08/18/11 07:05 PM
08/18/11 07:05 PM
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Fergie Offline
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Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
forgive me, but perhaps you're assuming that that type of discussion will result in honest communication-- and NOT be followed up with, "i don't have time for this crap, i'll be late for my tee time."

Sounds like a response to me. It's just not the positive response.

It translates, "I don't care."

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Fergie] #147856
08/18/11 07:31 PM
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ohmy_marie Offline
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lol... funny how an affair translates the exact same way. wink


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #147870
08/18/11 07:51 PM
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Brotherly Love
gr8 day 2b alive Offline
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Quote:
Your posts ring with a sincerity and honesty that is not present in other WS's.

Agreed,
if more WAS took concerted effort to really try to save the M I think more would be saved. You don;t see too many WAs posting here.


Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] #147895
08/18/11 09:03 PM
08/18/11 09:03 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I was a real beeyotch in 2006.....I've had my whiny and irritating moments since then. I am certain I have not been super easy to live with at times. But thank you for the encouragement.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147911
08/18/11 09:18 PM
08/18/11 09:18 PM
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rob x Offline
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Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
Quote:
from rob x: "Hey you, I'm not happy, you don't take care of my needs, if you don't change what you're doing, I'm going to find someone else to be with because I can't continue being in this relationship anymore the way it is right now, I've been feeling like this forever and I finally need to let you know that I'm at my breaking point."


forgive me, but perhaps you're assuming that that type of discussion will result in honest communication-- and NOT be followed up with, "i don't have time for this crap, i'll be late for my tee time."


You didn't do anything wrong to me so you don't require my forgiveness wink

Based on your post though, you are still limiting your honest communication with your partner based on their reaction to you, when you limit your honest and ability to communicate, you can never tell the person you are with what you need from them.

And in a weird topsy turvy way, it shows some control issues on your end - if you realize that the other person's reaction to what you say is for them to own and not for you to control, you will find yourself being able to be more honest with your partner and anyone else you communicate with. Holding back because you think you won't like the reaction you anticipate from your partner is actually YOU trying to control their reaction, let go of the need to control the outcome, just be honest and let it out.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Fergie] #147912
08/18/11 09:20 PM
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rob x Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fergie
Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
forgive me, but perhaps you're assuming that that type of discussion will result in honest communication-- and NOT be followed up with, "i don't have time for this crap, i'll be late for my tee time."

Sounds like a response to me. It's just not the positive response.

It translates, "I don't care."


Consider the kind of person you're dealing with that calls your words crap, they're not afraid of your reaction by being honest with you, why should you be afraid of their reaction - stop trying to control the other person's reaction, just be honest with yourself and them.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147915
08/18/11 09:25 PM
08/18/11 09:25 PM
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rob x Offline
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Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
Quote:
from rob x: "Hey you, I'm not happy, you don't take care of my needs, if you don't change what you're doing, I'm going to find someone else to be with because I can't continue being in this relationship anymore the way it is right now, I've been feeling like this forever and I finally need to let you know that I'm at my breaking point."


forgive me, but perhaps you're assuming that that type of discussion will result in honest communication-- and NOT be followed up with, "i don't have time for this crap, i'll be late for my tee time."


I only assume my side of the discussion will be honest, I have not preconceived notions about how someone will respond to me, I can't control what they do, what they say, how they react, etc. so why would I invest energy into worrying about how they react to what I say - I know I'm being honest.

In life unless you're really lucky, you will usually never get more than what you ask for, so you might as well ask for everything you want and then some.


Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #147916
08/18/11 09:26 PM
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ohmy_marie Offline
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rob x,

i'm trying to understand this...

i DID have that conversation with my H. THAT was his response to me.

i asked, he answered. i don't see where i was controlling him?


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #147926
08/18/11 09:50 PM
08/18/11 09:50 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: robx
it's quite possible they've been used to covering up how they really feel for quite some time that when they're finally ready to spill the beans, they can't because of the habit they've taught themselves of holding back for fear of hurting the other person, for fear of the other person's reaction, etc.


Yep.

I think some people have been taught to hold back on penalty of separation from the herd. I think it is logical for a person who has been taught not to express their feelings to learn to ignore those feelings. It also seems logical that in the process of being taught not to express feelings might result in the person concluding that their feelings are not to be trusted in addition to being irrelevant.

It seems to me that telling another person about one's feelings presupposes a sense of self-awareness that may not always be present.

I'm wondering how many faithful spouses really want to hear -- I mean really hear -- how their unfaithful spouse feels versus dismissing those communications as "fogbabble" or "rewriting marital history."

The fact that one spouse is talking doesn't mean that the other spouse is listening.

To be clear, I am not trying to justify an affair -- for me, the right decision would have been to file for divorce in which event we would be divorced today, regardless of what he did or didn't do in response.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 08/18/11 10:08 PM. Reason: add a thought
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #147934
08/18/11 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: rob x
Why does it matter?

What does it say about you that you would feel the need to wait for a WAS to come out of their fog when they're having an affair/relationship with another person when they should be in a committed relationship with you?

Do you think so little of yourself and equate such low value to yourself that you should wait your turn to be with your WAS after they're done with the affair relationship they're currently having? If you're going to consider waiting for them, maybe ask them if you can watch them when they're being intimate with each other, if you have to wait, might as well sit and enjoy the show for as long as it lasts right? Might even learn some new moves maybe?

If you're waiting for your WAS to snap out of their "fog", then you aka "the BS" (nice term) are living in limbo, waiting for someone else to make a decision with regards to how you should live your life. Does that really work for you?
^^^ THIS

The LBS always has the choice of looking at his/her own "fog" and habits of keeping secrets and being blind:

http://www.alturtle.com/blog/_archives/2008/3/3/3558852.html


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: flowmom] #148019
08/19/11 02:49 AM
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Orchid2 Offline
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HI
Need to clarify one point. The BS is never always (2 words that shouldn't be used together so often wink ), never always faultless. The WS is not always 100% at fault.

That being said/admitted, what does a couple do when the WS skin/life is shed and it comes back to the H and W roles?

IMHO, the same place before the A. Learning how to be an H and a W that can have a productive and happy R.

So if there are issues to work on and discuss, that is what should be done. Remember that this point the skin of the A is shed but the root of the A may still be present.

The dedication to rooting out the bad and replacing it with the good (some don't like to use the words bad and good but I hope you can understand it is a contrast point), is important.

Remember the H and W takes precedence that is where the focus should be. Going back to the WS attitude should be taken off the table along with any entitlement issues.

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #148117
08/19/11 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
This subject came up in another thread and felt it deserved it's own. What brings the WS/WAS out of their "fog"? How long does it take? What is the next step for the WS? How do they feel? Where is the BS at this point? How often does this snapping out of it happen (possibly never)? Once they our out of it, do they want to return, or do they just move onto another relationship?

Feel free to add more and expand on this subject.

-AtTheEnd?


I believe that the answers to your questions here are basically twofold.

1. Morals.

What are the moral standards that each person applies to their own life, regardless of what anyone else does in theirs? On what basis are those chosen moral standards based?

To a WS with "relative morals," there is little that would deter them from an affair, much less that would "bring them out." In a personal world where the individual decides what is right and wrong for themselves, they can, and do, make up whatever reasons and justifications allow them to pursue whatever their wants and desires are. In short, it's an acceptance of the "end justifies the means" sort of reasoning that becomes their concept of morality and moral actions. It is decidely "me" focused and "thee" only enters in if it gets them something they want (could be $, kids, etc.).

To a WS with "external morals," up to and including "absolute morals," things such as exposure and people with a moral system that does define affairs as being wrong, it can and often does start them evaluating their actions. That is what is sometimes referred to as "the fog begins to lift." Rarely is it a "bolt of lightning" sort of reaction. It is more a gradual reaction that they reach by thinking about the moral position and what they see as the "sort of person that they want to be deep down." Because of the usually heavy emotional involvement and investment in the affair, the habits that were formed to support the affair, the analogy to a "lifting fog" is valid because fog does not lift instantaneously either. The accumulation of "conditions," over time, is what results in the "clear thinking" and the "dissipated fog," however you want to think of it.

The question that underlies it is a societal question. What is the basis for morality, if any? If morality exists, is it applicable to everyone or is it subject to "personal likes and dislikes?"


2. Love.

For the BS, it is all about love for their spouse AND their own moral values. Again, relative morals and external (absolute or otherwise) contribute heavily toward a BS's reaction and their view about attempting to salvage and rebuild their marriage. Part of their moral structure will encompass their belief in, and willingness or unwillingness, to actually forgive a WS once the "fog has lifted" and the affair has ended, assuming that the WS seeks their forgiveness with a truly repentant heart. But that response from the WS is also heavily influenced by their previously mentioned personal code of morality. It's part of what makes the difference between "I'm sorry" and "I am truly sorry for what I allowed myself to do."

For me (and many others would disagree with me) the BS will wait as long as they feel they have love and the capacity to forgive.

"Sacrificial love" is often "poo-pooed," but it is a willing commitment that is vital to marriage, imho, and it has nothing to do with being a "doormat" or "living in limbo" as some people like to describe the attempt to save a marriage.

It is a belief system (including the moral aspects) of 1 Corinthians 13:4-7;

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."



In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ForeverHers] #148127
08/19/11 12:46 PM
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Not quite here
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Not quite here
The thing that actually made me want to come out of the fog was at a NYE party on the stroke of midnight, when all the couple we(me and my H) were with reached for each other for a kiss.

I felt uncomfortable and wanted to hide....but when I saw my H's reaction to my discomfort, I suddenly knew it had to stop.


He looked so sad.... and he looked like he wanted me to be with him. I decided it wasn't fair on him. I told him the next morning that I would like his help to end my A, but understood if he just wanted to end the M


In our different ways we had both been trying to hurt each other for too long.


Actually coming out of the fog, took much longer. I had one slip up with NC - I looked at his FB page after a couple of weeks.

But the fantasy for me wasn't the OM it was the A. It was the escape....it wasn't until months and months after NC that I realised this and more months after that for me to lose the fogginess of wanting that fantasy......Not to say that I was actually wayward, but just that I devalued my M still because I longed for the escape. That secondary fog hung around for a long old time, even though I was working on me and my M.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #148176
08/19/11 02:58 PM
08/19/11 02:58 PM
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rob x Offline
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Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
rob x,

i'm trying to understand this...

i DID have that conversation with my H. THAT was his response to me.

i asked, he answered. i don't see where i was controlling him?


This is what you said:

Quote:
...forgive me, but perhaps you're assuming that that type of discussion will result in honest communication-- and NOT be followed up with, "i don't have time for this crap, i'll be late for my tee time."


Guess what, if you really did communicate honestly to him and he really isn't interested in meeting your needs or improving the relationship after you have been DEAD HONEST about the current state of affairs and the fact that you're not willing to continue the relationship unless it improves - the decision in the end is yours to make.

You can't control his actions and getting angry at his response is just a sign that you want to control him and make him do what you ask. You don't want to make him do anything - that is controlling, what you want is for him to realize and acknowledge the issue and work with you on improving things, but don't get mad because he didn't jump when you discussed this with him.

If you are honest about what you want and your partner/mate/spouse isn't interested in doing anything to help the situation and doesn't even ask for you to make changes also that would improve his feelings about the relationship - you have your answer, the relationship is over. When the relationship is no longer mutually beneficial for both you and your husband, it's over, it's just a matter of time when one of you will finally pull the plug.

If you were really honest with him and he didn't like what you said, guess what, he doesn't care - that's your answer.

He responded back to you,
and he didn't like, or better yet, didn't care about what you had to say, you have your answer there, you know how he feels. Hanging around and waiting for him isn't going to improve the situation.

If you husband really did say:

"i don't have time for this crap, i'll be late for my tee time."

it means he checked out quite some time ago and has been going through the motions, it's up to you at this point.

Ever ask yourself why he checked out of the relationship?
Is it possible he felt the same things you're feeling now but couldn't get you to acknowledge the issues at the time, is it possible he waited for you to step up to the plate and make the changes necessary for him to continue wanting to be in the relationship?

Communicating honestly includes being detached from the outcome of that communication, as long as you were honest in your communication, all you can do is ask for them to be honest in their response back to you. If you communicate honestly to someone but they respond by lying to you, deceiving you, or don't even bother to respond at all - you have your answers.

Now if you communicate honestly but continue to beat that point you're trying to make into their faces waiting for them to change their response to the one that suits you the most, that is controlling. Let them respond anyway they want to, you can't control their actions, you can only control your actions - if the relationship is no longer beneficial to you after you have communicated that your needs are not being met, you have your answer and the remaining action to take is up to you: stay and suffer some more, wash-rinse-repeat, or choose to end the relationship and move on with your life.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #148180
08/19/11 03:04 PM
08/19/11 03:04 PM
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline
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One powerful concept I came away from Passionate Marriage with is: couples communicate all the time.

We assume good communication = acceptance / validation.

i.e. if I could just properly communicate the depth of the problem, my H will acknowledge it and change.

I think that is what Rob is talking about with the 'control' issue. Wanting to control what our spouse's response is to your communication. But you only get to control what you say - not the response.

But communication DID happen. Your H communicated his disinterest in meeting your needs - and if it led to the end of his marriage he's either (a) ok with that or (b) doesn't believe you.

Either way, Communication has occurred.


Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ForeverHers] #148183
08/19/11 03:11 PM
08/19/11 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: ForeverHers


I believe that the answers to your questions here are basically twofold.

1. Morals.

What are the moral standards that each person applies to their own life, regardless of what anyone else does in theirs? On what basis are those chosen moral standards based?

To a WS with "relative morals," there is little that would deter them from an affair, much less that would "bring them out." In a personal world where the individual decides what is right and wrong for themselves, they can, and do, make up whatever reasons and justifications allow them to pursue whatever their wants and desires are. In short, it's an acceptance of the "end justifies the means" sort of reasoning that becomes their concept of morality and moral actions. It is decidely "me" focused and "thee" only enters in if it gets them something they want (could be $, kids, etc.).

To a WS with "external morals," up to and including "absolute morals," things such as exposure and people with a moral system that does define affairs as being wrong, it can and often does start them evaluating their actions. That is what is sometimes referred to as "the fog begins to lift." Rarely is it a "bolt of lightning" sort of reaction. It is more a gradual reaction that they reach by thinking about the moral position and what they see as the "sort of person that they want to be deep down." Because of the usually heavy emotional involvement and investment in the affair, the habits that were formed to support the affair, the analogy to a "lifting fog" is valid because fog does not lift instantaneously either. The accumulation of "conditions," over time, is what results in the "clear thinking" and the "dissipated fog," however you want to think of it.

The question that underlies it is a societal question. What is the basis for morality, if any? If morality exists, is it applicable to everyone or is it subject to "personal likes and dislikes?"


2. Love.

For the BS, it is all about love for their spouse AND their own moral values. Again, relative morals and external (absolute or otherwise) contribute heavily toward a BS's reaction and their view about attempting to salvage and rebuild their marriage. Part of their moral structure will encompass their belief in, and willingness or unwillingness, to actually forgive a WS once the "fog has lifted" and the affair has ended, assuming that the WS seeks their forgiveness with a truly repentant heart. But that response from the WS is also heavily influenced by their previously mentioned personal code of morality. It's part of what makes the difference between "I'm sorry" and "I am truly sorry for what I allowed myself to do."

For me (and many others would disagree with me) the BS will wait as long as they feel they have love and the capacity to forgive.

"Sacrificial love" is often "poo-pooed," but it is a willing commitment that is vital to marriage, imho, and it has nothing to do with being a "doormat" or "living in limbo" as some people like to describe the attempt to save a marriage.

It is a belief system (including the moral aspects) of 1 Corinthians 13:4-7;

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."



If you have morals before you get married,
and beliefs which include things like not putting up with infidelity - do you let those morals take a back seat when you happen to be in the hot seat in that given situation?

As for sacrificial love, why not just offer unconditional love to your spouse?

Why not just say to them,
I will always love you,
the time I had with you was precious and I will remember it always, you will always hold a special place in my heart and although your feelings may have changed about our relationship, I love you enough to let you go so that you can find the happiness you're looking for with another person and I won't stand in your way. I won't wait miserably for you, hoping you'll feel guilty enough to come back to me one day after you've had your fun, I will move on with my life, release you from any guilt and bad feelings you had because of what's happened so that you can truly live in the moment and enjoy your new relationship. I won't be negative or resentful towards you and I will move on with my life too and I wish only great things for you in your life.

It seems to me that if you love someone enough, you wouldn't force them to be with you if they no longer felt the same way about you, regardless if they promised to love you forever 10 years ago in some obscure marriage ceremony.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #148207
08/19/11 04:07 PM
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rob x,

thank you... i appreciate the time and effort that you put into your reply.

in kindness, marie


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Vibrissa] #148223
08/19/11 04:33 PM
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vibrissa,

in an attempt to clear up any misunderstanding, i was open and willing to hear whatever came out of my H's mouth. i accept his answer. i am at peace with his answer.

this particular conversation was several years ago, and i was using it more as a "learning tool" for others... in that just because you open yourself up to your spouse, and yearn for that open and honest communication to follow, doesn't guarantee you'll be met with open and loving communication. sometimes, you're met with anger and frustration (as i was).

(i've read your response regarding the fallacy of believing good communication = validation/acceptance/change. i was sincerely trying to make that exact point!)

blessings, marie


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #148225
08/19/11 04:39 PM
08/19/11 04:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline
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I'm Sorry - I wasn't intending to come across as argumentative, more just providing another voice on the same idea! I wasn't trying to adress you particularly, but the situation you described (which I think is a common one).

I agree with what you're saying.


Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Vibrissa] #148235
08/19/11 05:01 PM
08/19/11 05:01 PM
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thank you, vibrissa-- i appreciate you! -marie grin

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ohmy_marie] #148271
08/19/11 06:03 PM
08/19/11 06:03 PM
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
smile


Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #148273
08/19/11 06:05 PM
08/19/11 06:05 PM
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ForeverHers Offline
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Originally Posted By: rob x
Originally Posted By: ForeverHers


I believe that the answers to your questions here are basically twofold.

1. Morals.

What are the moral standards that each person applies to their own life, regardless of what anyone else does in theirs? On what basis are those chosen moral standards based?

To a WS with "relative morals," there is little that would deter them from an affair, much less that would "bring them out." In a personal world where the individual decides what is right and wrong for themselves, they can, and do, make up whatever reasons and justifications allow them to pursue whatever their wants and desires are. In short, it's an acceptance of the "end justifies the means" sort of reasoning that becomes their concept of morality and moral actions. It is decidely "me" focused and "thee" only enters in if it gets them something they want (could be $, kids, etc.).

To a WS with "external morals," up to and including "absolute morals," things such as exposure and people with a moral system that does define affairs as being wrong, it can and often does start them evaluating their actions. That is what is sometimes referred to as "the fog begins to lift." Rarely is it a "bolt of lightning" sort of reaction. It is more a gradual reaction that they reach by thinking about the moral position and what they see as the "sort of person that they want to be deep down." Because of the usually heavy emotional involvement and investment in the affair, the habits that were formed to support the affair, the analogy to a "lifting fog" is valid because fog does not lift instantaneously either. The accumulation of "conditions," over time, is what results in the "clear thinking" and the "dissipated fog," however you want to think of it.

The question that underlies it is a societal question. What is the basis for morality, if any? If morality exists, is it applicable to everyone or is it subject to "personal likes and dislikes?"


2. Love.

For the BS, it is all about love for their spouse AND their own moral values. Again, relative morals and external (absolute or otherwise) contribute heavily toward a BS's reaction and their view about attempting to salvage and rebuild their marriage. Part of their moral structure will encompass their belief in, and willingness or unwillingness, to actually forgive a WS once the "fog has lifted" and the affair has ended, assuming that the WS seeks their forgiveness with a truly repentant heart. But that response from the WS is also heavily influenced by their previously mentioned personal code of morality. It's part of what makes the difference between "I'm sorry" and "I am truly sorry for what I allowed myself to do."

For me (and many others would disagree with me) the BS will wait as long as they feel they have love and the capacity to forgive.

"Sacrificial love" is often "poo-pooed," but it is a willing commitment that is vital to marriage, imho, and it has nothing to do with being a "doormat" or "living in limbo" as some people like to describe the attempt to save a marriage.

It is a belief system (including the moral aspects) of 1 Corinthians 13:4-7;

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."



If you have morals before you get married,
and beliefs which include things like not putting up with infidelity - do you let those morals take a back seat when you happen to be in the hot seat in that given situation?

As for sacrificial love, why not just offer unconditional love to your spouse?

Why not just say to them,
I will always love you,
the time I had with you was precious and I will remember it always, you will always hold a special place in my heart and although your feelings may have changed about our relationship, I love you enough to let you go so that you can find the happiness you're looking for with another person and I won't stand in your way. I won't wait miserably for you, hoping you'll feel guilty enough to come back to me one day after you've had your fun, I will move on with my life, release you from any guilt and bad feelings you had because of what's happened so that you can truly live in the moment and enjoy your new relationship. I won't be negative or resentful towards you and I will move on with my life too and I wish only great things for you in your life.

It seems to me that if you love someone enough, you wouldn't force them to be with you if they no longer felt the same way about you, regardless if they promised to love you forever 10 years ago in some obscure marriage ceremony.


Rob x - what makes you think that it's an "either/or" situation? Perhaps it takes both, hmmm.


Additionally, NO ONE "forces" anyone to be with anyone. That is a choice two people make. Working to save a marriage is NOT "forcing" either the BS or the WS to be with each other. Perhaps you missed that or think that efforts to save a marriage includes "forcing" the compliance of the other spouse.

Your reference to an "obscure marriage ceremony" seems to be potentially part of the problem in your view of someone choosing to attempt to recover their marriage. If someone sees their marriage vows as a commitment that they make, "for better or for worse," then the "worse" of an affair does not automatically nullify their commitment. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who see marriage as more of a relationship of convenience, good only so long as they have "feelings" of love for their spouse. In those cases, WS's will seek someone else and BS's will likely not pursue saving their marriage unless they see some other benefit (i.e., children, $'s, etc.) that they see as practical reasons to not split up the family "assets" if it can be avoided.


Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ForeverHers] #148340
08/19/11 08:38 PM
08/19/11 08:38 PM
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rob x Offline
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Quote:
Rob x - what makes you think that it's an "either/or" situation? Perhaps it takes both, hmmm.


Additionally, NO ONE "forces" anyone to be with anyone. That is a choice two people make. Working to save a marriage is NOT "forcing" either the BS or the WS to be with each other. Perhaps you missed that or think that efforts to save a marriage includes "forcing" the compliance of the other spouse.

Your reference to an "obscure marriage ceremony" seems to be potentially part of the problem in your view of someone choosing to attempt to recover their marriage. If someone sees their marriage vows as a commitment that they make, "for better or for worse," then the "worse" of an affair does not automatically nullify their commitment. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who see marriage as more of a relationship of convenience, good only so long as they have "feelings" of love for their spouse. In those cases, WS's will seek someone else and BS's will likely not pursue saving their marriage unless they see some other benefit (i.e., children, $'s, etc.) that they see as practical reasons to not split up the family "assets" if it can be avoided.


FH I'm being as real as I possibly can be about this.

If infidelity is involved,
after you've discovered the affair and confronted your spouse about it and asked them to end the affair. If they choose not to end the affair, my point of view is to accept their decision and let them go and move on with my life instead of living in limbo and hoping they may come back some day.

I am for marriage and have nothing against marriage as long as prenup's that protect both spouses are in place. My point about the obscure wedding ceremony that took place several years ago is that after that one day, a lot of couples go down hill right after that - they don't remember their vows to each other, they become lazy with each other, treat each other poorly and disrespectfully and then one spouse makes the decision to have an affair and the LBS starts spewing forth words like "what happened til death do us part? what happened to respecting and honoring your marriage vows?" and then we find out that the LBS has been a lazy sloth, hasn't loved, honored or cherished their spouse to the best of their abilities, they've become fat and lazy, they don't communicate with their spouses, they don't make an effort to continue to date their spouse, grow and develop with them, discover new things with them and they certainly don't put their spouses at the top of their list of priorities.

Those marriage vows don't just end when you pay the bill for the wedding reception, they start the day after the marriage - most people lose sight of that and wonder why their spouses decided to eventually seek out the companion energy they needed in another person.

Quote:
...If someone sees their marriage vows as a commitment that they make, "for better or for worse," then the "worse" of an affair does not automatically nullify their commitment. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who see marriage as more of a relationship of convenience, good only so long as they have "feelings" of love for their spouse. In those cases, WS's will seek someone else and BS's will likely not pursue saving their marriage unless they see some other benefit (i.e., children, $'s, etc.) that they see as practical reasons to not split up the family "assets" if it can be avoided.


For the record, I don't have a problem with my view of someone choosing to attempt to recover their marriage. What I have is my point of view, I don't consider it to be a problem or problematic.

And for the record I agree that the "worse" of an affair does not automatically nullify their commitment. What nullifies the commitment is when you have confronted your spouse after discovering the affair, asked them to make a choice to stop what they're doing and work on improving the marriage and they choose to continue their affair relationship. At that point, the decision has been made, you have to accept it and move on with your life or you can choose to live in limbo and hope that they change their mind at some point but make no mistake, the commitment that a married couple made to each other is broken when one of them chooses to be with their affair partner even after being confronted and given the choice to stop the affair. If you choose to remain committed to your cheating spouse when they have made it clear to you that they don't want to be in a relationship with you and would prefer to be in a relationship with their affair partner, that is not a marital commitment you are pursuing because your spouse has communicated to you that they don't want the same thing - you are no longer committed to each other.

And you are absolutely correct,
"..there are a lot of people who see marriage as more of a relationship of convenience, good only so long as they have "feelings" of love for their spouse. In those cases, WS's will seek someone else"

But this part is not accurate based on what we see on these forums:
"....and BS's will likely not pursue saving their marriage unless they see some other benefit (i.e., children, $'s, etc.) that they see as practical reasons to not split up the family "assets" if it can be avoided."

The LBS will usually spend a considerable amount of time trying to find a way to get their spouse back in these situations.

That's why I say prenup's and taking marriage classes & receiving some form of marriage license should be a requirement, not an option. I think you would see less people getting married when you remove the financial incentives and open their eyes to the reality of how much work is involved in being married and living together, the people who do get married, will probably be getting married for the right reasons which would likely result in fewer divorces.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #148368
08/19/11 09:21 PM
08/19/11 09:21 PM
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Quote:
I am for marriage and have nothing against marriage as long as prenup's that protect both spouses are in place. My point about the obscure wedding ceremony that took place several years ago is that after that one day, a lot of couples go down hill right after that - they don't remember their vows to each other, they become lazy with each other, treat each other poorly and disrespectfully and then one spouse makes the decision to have an affair and the LBS starts spewing forth words like "what happened til death do us part? what happened to respecting and honoring your marriage vows?" and then we find out that the LBS has been a lazy sloth, hasn't loved, honored or cherished their spouse to the best of their abilities, they've become fat and lazy, they don't communicate with their spouses, they don't make an effort to continue to date their spouse, grow and develop with them, discover new things with them and they certainly don't put their spouses at the top of their list of priorities.

^^^^^ is SO true. thanks for putting it in words.

Quote:
I think you would see less people getting married when you remove the financial incentives and open their eyes to the reality of how much work is involved in being married and living together, the people who do get married, will probably be getting married for the right reasons which would likely result in fewer divorces.

^^^^^ again .. another gem.


Last edited by D4MIL; 08/19/11 09:21 PM.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #150244
08/24/11 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
Originally Posted By: gr8 day 2b alive
I wholeheartedly agree.
Communication in the most direct form is the best way to express one's feelings.


However, you need to be completely honest with yourself, before you can be honest with anyone else.


Ya don't say...scratch


dancing



Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face...we must do that which we think we cannot.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: black_raven] #150259
08/24/11 09:40 PM
08/24/11 09:40 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Honesty is essential. Absolutely essential. A WS who will not be honest.....has NOT snapped out of it. I didn't enjoy telling h the details he wanted/needed to know. But it wasn't my job to decide what he needed. Part of the amends was for me to be completely transparent.

I have never understood the idea of saying "it was only an EA", then conceding that you kissed, then conceding that you had sex but "only once," etc. That is like death by 1,000 cuts.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: herfuturesbright] #150396
08/25/11 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
Honesty is essential. Absolutely essential. A WS who will not be honest.....has NOT snapped out of it. I didn't enjoy telling h the details he wanted/needed to know. But it wasn't my job to decide what he needed. Part of the amends was for me to be completely transparent.


Orchid: Not sure if any WS can be honest while in the midst of the A and being a WS. When that is shed, then yes, many an Xws or RS (recovered spouse) have been helpful in showing the need for honesty in recovery.

Interesting point you made about it not being your job to decide what your H needed. I wish more would get that point.

For me, as long as the Xws had entrails of the WS spirit, our M recovery wasn't happening. Once he realized what was on his plate and made his own changes then progress could be seen. Still a work in process but at least it is in the positive direction.

Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
I have never understood the idea of saying "it was only an EA", then conceding that you kissed, then conceding that you had sex but "only once," etc. That is like death by 1,000 cuts.


Orchid: EA is the most dangerous type of A. It begins the earliest and lasts the longest. It is when the most damage is inflicted on the BS and family and the destructive plans originate.

Thanks for sharing! wink

Orchid

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #150460
08/25/11 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: rob x
FH I'm being as real as I possibly can be about this.

So you are being as real as you can possibly be about this from your perspective. I understand that. I have a slightly different perspective about it and am being as real about it as you are about yours.



Originally Posted By: rob x
If infidelity is involved,
after you've discovered the affair and confronted your spouse about it and asked them to end the affair. If they choose not to end the affair, my point of view is to accept their decision and let them go and move on with my life instead of living in limbo and hoping they may come back some day.

I understand your viewpoint and you have every right, as does anyone, to issue an ultimatum and then walk away from the marriage. That right, imho, is ONE of the rights of any Betrayed Spouse. But its also NOT the only right or the only path that a Betrayed Spouse can choose for themselves. Tto call those who are willing to try to fight for their marriage living in limbo, in the WAY that you are talking about it, implies strongly that they are idiots for even trying to do anything other than issue and ultimatum of the end the affair TODAY or I am gone forever.

If you want to call the uncertain time before a WS ends an affair and wants to attempt to recover the marriage, limbo time, as in you are married but you dont have a strong loving marriage, then Id say thats fine. But to use the term as you do as some sort of derogatory statement toward those who do choose to endure what they can in order to hopefully save their marriage appears to be insensitive and meanall coming from the perspective of what YOU would do. You are not them, neither am I. And, yes, I lived in limbo of one sort or another for quite some time and now have a strong recovered marriage where my wife not only loves me deeply but is disgusted with her former OM and her former affair behavior.

Rob, what you seem to be doing is the same thing that we all do from time to timeprojecting ourselves into someone elses situation as THE only way to do something.



Originally Posted By: rob x
I am for marriage and have nothing against marriage as long as prenup's that protect both spouses are in place.

If you want a pre-nup as a requirement before getting married, thats fine for you and for others who may believe the way you do. What do you want in your pre-nup? Id even agree that they are a good idea for couples who are later in life and have prior families and assets that need to be reserved for their own children, grandchildren, etc.



Originally Posted By: rob x
My point about the obscure wedding ceremony that took place several years ago is that after that one day, a lot of couples go down hill right after that

I disagree, but Id love to see your statistics that support this claim. I think couples go downhill in their marriage because the stop working at, stop considering their spouses needs, get involved in me first, let themselves go physically, etc. There a LOT of reasons why marriages go downhill, but very few of them are after that one day. They are things that are usually in the years category and are an accumulation of things. Regardless, insensitivity toward ones spouse and poor communication are two of the big causes of the downhill you are referring to. For those who are believers, it also involves NOT performing the roles of husband and wife as assigned by God, but choosing to ignore God and do it my way because thats what *I* want.



Originally Posted By: rob x
- they don't remember their vows to each other, they become lazy with each other, treat each other poorly and disrespectfully

Id agree that is what happens over time, as I said in the prior response above.



Originally Posted By: rob x
and then one spouse makes the decision to have an affair and the LBS starts spewing forth words like "what happened til death do us part? what happened to respecting and honoring your marriage vows?"

Yes, and its a legitimate question because the marriage VOWS are a commitment that EACH person makes. So its legitimate to ask a WS, what happened to your promises that you committed to? But, again, your choice of the word spewing is pejorative against the Betrayed Spouse.



Originally Posted By: rob x
and then we find out that the LBS has been a lazy sloth, hasn't loved, honored or cherished their spouse to the best of their abilities, they've become fat and lazy, they don't communicate with their spouses, they don't make an effort to continue to date their spouse, grow and develop with them, discover new things with them and they certainly don't put their spouses at the top of their list of priorities.

Got it. You think the Wayward Spouses choice to have an affair is the fault of the Betrayed Spouse. EVEN IF a Betrayed Spouse had acted in the way you describe, the answer is either counseling or divorce, but NOT an affair. That is NOT how one signals their displeasure with the other spouse.

Rob, very few of the Betrayed Spouses Ive encountered over the past almost 10 years of these sites would fit your above description to a T. And they are NOT responsible for a spouses decision to cheat. That decision is 100% owned by the Wayward Spouse. They could have addressed the problems that they saw in their spouse directly, rather than use their imagined (or real) unfulfilled emotional needs as an excuse and a justification to commit adultery.



Originally Posted By: rob x
Those marriage vows don't just end when you pay the bill for the wedding reception, they start the day after the marriage - most people lose sight of that and wonder why their spouses decided to eventually seek out the companion energy they needed in another person.

Id tend to agree with you that the vows dont just end when you pay the bill for the wedding reception. Id also disagree that they start BEFORE the wedding for a lot of people. I think its a societal problem with the sanctity and seriousness of marriage that many have bought into. They see it as a try it and if you dont like it you can just end it sort of thing. The dumbing down of marriage to one that only includes a man and woman is a problem. It speaks to morality in general and marriage as an institution created and ordained by God in specific.

The problem is one of relative morality, of putting me first and ignoring the First and Second greatest commandments as stated by Jesus. Remove those two (upon which all of the other commandments depend) and there is nothing stopping anyone from doing whatever they feel like doing and using any excuse they want to use to justify their choice.

As I said previously: If someone sees their marriage vows as a commitment that they make, "for better or for worse," then the "worse" of an affair does not automatically nullify their commitment. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who see marriage as more of a relationship of convenience, good only so long as they have "feelings" of love for their spouse. In those cases, WS's will seek someone else and BS's will likely not pursue saving their marriage unless they see some other benefit (i.e., children, $'s, etc.) that they see as practical reasons to not split up the family "assets" if it can be avoided.



Originally Posted By: rob x
For the record, I don't have a problem with my view of someone choosing to attempt to recover their marriage. What I have is my point of view, I don't consider it to be a problem or problematic.

Your point of view isnt a problem, but it can be problematic. You seem to support the ultimatum approach to ending an affair and recovering a marriage. Again, ultimatums are fine so long as you (the individual Betrayed Spouse) are willing and committed to ending the marriage if the Wayward Spouse does not immediately submit to your ultimatum. The point about any ultimatum is that you have to be prepared to enforce the consequence(s) attached to the ultimatum if the spouse does not comply. In essence, you are trying to force your spouse to return to the marriage through the use of an ultimatumand that rarely works, given the fact that a Wayward Spouse in an affair has already chosen to end the marriage, usually after a long build up to the affair choice, as their way of dealing with what they perceive to be the problems in the marriage.



Originally Posted By: rob x
And for the record I agree that the "worse" of an affair does not automatically nullify their commitment. What nullifies the commitment is when you have confronted your spouse after discovering the affair, asked them to make a choice to stop what they're doing and work on improving the marriage and they choose to continue their affair relationship.

I disagree. The marriage commitment of the WS is already nullified on their part, thats why we often speak of the marriage actually being over when an affair occurs. But the commitment of the BS to their vows does not automatically end with their spouses affair, nor does it automatically end with the Wayward Spouses refusal to surrender to the hammer of the ultimatum. There is the added right of the Betrayed Spouse that they CAN choose to end the marriage on the basis of their spouses unfaithfulness IF they want to choose that route at any time prior to forgiveness and reconciliation with a repentant spouse who is trying to recover the marriage. WHEN divorce may be chosen is up to the Betrayed Spouse and is not limited to immediate positive response to the ultimatum.



Originally Posted By: rob x
At that point, the decision has been made, you have to accept it and move on with your life or you can choose to live in limbo and hope that they change their mind at some point but make no mistake, the commitment that a married couple made to each other is broken when one of them chooses to be with their affair partner even after being confronted and given the choice to stop the affair.

There is no question, never has been, that the marriage is broken. But your continued insistence on the term limbo for a Betrayed Spouse implies that they are willing to live with a third person in the marriage. That is NOT what attempting to end an affair and recover a marriage is all about. It is about having to endure for a time the emotional hurts of an affair in the hope of being able to recover the marriage. It is a hope that is based in Love and their commitment to their own half of the marriage vows. It is a realization that they can only control their own actions and responses to the affair and can only do so for some period of time that varies in length from person to person. It is about honoring their half of the wedding vows and attempting to love your neighbor (spouse) as yourself. It is attempting to put their (the WS) needs ahead of your own needs because affairs are destructive to not just the marriage but to the WS and everyone connected to the family.



Originally Posted By: rob x
If you choose to remain committed to your cheating spouse when they have made it clear to you that they don't want to be in a relationship with you and would prefer to be in a relationship with their affair partner, that is not a marital commitment you are pursuing because your spouse has communicated to you that they don't want the same thing - you are no longer committed to each other.

Im sorry, Rob, but I disagree with your statement and reasoning here. I think you may be jumping ahead in the scenario here to when the WS is adamant AFTER reasonable attempts have been made to change the mind of the WS. In that case I would agree with you. But you limit those attempts to just a single ultimatum approach, to which an immediate and positive response by the WS is the requirement. That is, imho, short-sighted and unrealistic given that most affairs we are talking about and dealing with are NOT just getting some strange or a One Night Stand, they are Emotional Affairs and/or EA/Physical Affairs. When the emotions are involved there is usually no On/Off switch, its more akin to a Dimmer Switch that doesnt immediately reach off.

The BS is remaining committed to their own marital commitment, with the understanding that the bad potential (now real) parts of the marriage vows generally are going to take time to get through.
Generally speaking you do not get rich overnight and solve the for poorer problem. You do not get healthy overnight and solve the in sickness problem. You do not get better overnight and solve the or worse problem. It takes a commitment to ones own vows to get through the bad times, working towards achieving the better, the health, the riches, etc. that most couples really hope for and want for their marriages.



Originally Posted By: rob x
And you are absolutely correct,
"..there are a lot of people who see marriage as more of a relationship of convenience, good only so long as they have "feelings" of love for their spouse. In those cases, WS's will seek someone else"

But this part is not accurate based on what we see on these forums:
"....and BS's will likely not pursue saving their marriage unless they see some other benefit (i.e., children, $'s, etc.) that they see as practical reasons to not split up the family "assets" if it can be avoided."

The LBS will usually spend a considerable amount of time trying to find a way to get their spouse back in these situations.

Rob, your took your disagreement here out of the context that I set of just a marriage of convenience. For BSs who themselves saw (see) marriage as just a convenience for them to get what they want, I stand on my previous statement.

For people who married for Love, true love for their spouse, those motivations may be a part of why they choose to attempt to save their marriage, but they are not the primary reason(s). The primary reason would be love and their belief in their own vows.



Originally Posted By: rob x
That's why I say prenup's and taking marriage classes & receiving some form of marriage license should be a requirement, not an option.

With the exception of the prenup, I would agree. But outside of religious reasons, WHY would anyone submit themselves to a requirement for classes? We already have no fault divorce as the standard for marriages in our society. That alone implies strongly the try it and if you dont like you can just leave the marriage marital counseling of the secular society. That IS the class that is taught to people today, also implying that the marriage commitments (vows) are essentially meaningless BEFORE they ever actually get married.



Originally Posted By: rob x
I think you would see less people getting married when you remove the financial incentives and open their eyes to the reality of how much work is involved in being married and living together, the people who do get married, will probably be getting married for the right reasons which would likely result in fewer divorces.

Possibly. There is no question in my mind that an emphasis on the seriousness and sanctity of marriage would help a lot. There is no question in my mind that if financial incentives are the ONLY reason to get married , theyd be far better off just forming a LLC or some other form of mutual financial incentive arrangement that does not include marriage.
Im also not sure about your conclusion though. I think the problem runs deeper that just the reality of how marriage works. I think it has a lot more to do with seeing marriage as a relationship between God, the husband, and the wife. As long as the husband and/or wife sees theirself as being the master and not the servant, the potential for divorces will remain very high, regardless of ones professed belief structure. For many today, the idea of submission to anyone is a fighting word because they dont understand what it means within the context of a Marriage. It goes right back to the First and Second greatest commandments, which are commandments, not suggestions.

So, in that respect, I would agree with you that it is more difficult for those who do not believe in God, in Christ, to recover their marriages because it all tends to be all about me first and foremost. If someone will not surrender their life to God, why would they want to surrender their life to a spouse, let alone a spouse they have already (given their choice to have an affair) decided wasnt good enough for them and all their perceived needs?



In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ForeverHers] #151370
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I'm not so sure there is one thing that 'snaps' a WS out of it, out of that fantasy land of 'I deserve to be happy with OP despite being M'd' or 'what I'm doing is not that bad' or whatever it is that is going through their noggin. There's pings or doses of reality shots, exposure comes to mind as the biggy. The A being more trouble than the adrenalin rush would be another ping as would be seeing the devastation of the BS and family. Another dose of reality. Our kids had a big impact on my then WH, their words seemed to penetrate deeper than mine when it came to H stepping up, initially anyway.

And once they do seem to 'snaaaaaap' (that's a slow snap cuz my H was more like a huge ship turning around, slow process) it's not unusual for the entitled mindset to return, I saw that mindset peek through many times.

Once in R, learning ways to protect our M had a big impact on him seeing how he had not protected it. Like hindsight, it was a dose of reality.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Vittoria] #151373
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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
as would be seeing the devastation of the BS and family. Another dose of reality.


I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

I'm not sure it is healthy for me or other BS's to really even think about this until it actually happens. I think it causes us to continue to be stuck in limbo, when the majority of us probably shouldn't have any hope.


Me45 - S13, D11
Disconnected 7/1/12

I'm a brand new sky to hang the stars upon tonight......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Danf] #151381
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Shock will stop or hinder anyone for a while. The important thing is to know what to do ASAP and do it. In regards to the A shock, for the BS to get their mind and heart in sync is key critical but one of the hardest things to do. Once accomplished, movement forward is usually quick and sometimes throws the WS for a loop thereby causing dysfunction in the A. The original goal of this though is to help the BS and family. The other is just a side benefit. grin

JMHO,
Orchid

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Orchid2] #155830
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Great post Forever Hers!


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #155839
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Quote:
WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it?


Ultimatums that are backed up with action.

If they don't stop the affair...let them go. Simply put, if they would choose to be with someone else...they aren't worth the time or effort.

I have seen far too many people waste many years trying to win back a cheater. At the end of the day, that time is irreplaceable. I would sooner spend my time with a person that is willing to love and care for me.

Cheaters suck.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #155842
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Originally Posted By: Medc
Ultimatums that are backed up with action.

If they don't stop the affair...let them go


It might seem like semantics on the surface, but I think the distinction between a hard boundary and an ultimatum are important because the differences say a lot about the mindset of whoever is either issuing the ultimatum or laying down their personal boundaries.

To me, 'ultimatum' has the connotation of trying to control somebody else: do as I want, or I will do this to punish you.

A boundary, on the other hand, is about what you are personally willing to put up with, and it is implicit that the other person can choose not to respect your boundaries, but you will enforce them.

I basically agree with you, but I think it needs to be said that other people are free to choose, and if your motive is to decide what you are willing to put up with in your own life and not some manipulative attempt to control the other person, then you are on solid ground.


Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: TimeHeals] #155849
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Quote:
ultimatum (lt-mtm, -m-)
n. pl. ultimatums or ultimata (-t)
1. A final statement of terms made by one party to another.
2. A statement, especially in diplomatic negotiations, that expresses or implies the threat of serious penalties if the terms are not accepted.


I am okay with either definition.

I see the penalty in the second definition as losing the right to be part of my life. There is that threat.

Simply put, I see no opportunity, in a personal relationship, to ever control the actions of another person. We are all free to do as we choose....but there are consequences to actions.

Quote:
if your motive is to decide what you are willing to put up with in your own life and not some manipulative attempt to control the other person, then you are on solid ground.


Yep. That is always the motive IMHO.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #155856
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Ultimatums are not the way. Laying down what you must have to continue - a boundary or requirement that if not met forces you to take action to protect yourself is. The WS has a choice to make and the choice and decision to man up or woman up and take responsibilty for their actions is one choice. To face D for you to take action to protect yourself as second choice. They make the choice. You cannot force it one way or the other. It is not an ultimatum or threat, it must be reality. SOme take longer than others to make the decision to take this step and it is THEIR choice and not open to anyone's opinion or comments. There is no ONE right way. There is no one right script to follow. Nothing will force a decision, however many when faced with this decision will start to think clearly and make the right choice. Some won't.

Last edited by 20yrshurt&r; 09/10/11 04:57 PM.

Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #155858
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Quote:
Ultimatums are not the way.


I disagree.

Quote:
Laying down what you must have to continue


by definition this is an ultimatum.

"if you don't end your affair I will immediately file for divorce" is an ultimatum that CLEARLY states the boundary that an affair is unacceptable and will result in the end of the marriage.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #155859
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Quote:
by definition this is an ultimatum.

"if you don't end your affair I will immediately file for divorce"


Agreed.

But... "I will not live in an open marriage" is a boundary.

In my experience, threats are meaningless and come off as controlling. Taking actions to protect yourself and enforce your own boundaries rather than issuing threats, on the other hand, sends the clear message that you will protect yourself.

Last edited by TimeHeals; 09/10/11 05:12 PM.

Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #155861
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Semantics - If you approach your spouse and say I have an ultimatum for you, your response will automatically be "you're being controlling and trying to force me to do what you want". When you place the ball squarely in their court to make a decision with two options you are not giving just one option and they cannot use that argument and stomp off with the response of I'll make my own decision and that's D because it's easier for me, nicer to you and doesn't force me to abandon the love and greener fields I've found.

You force them to make a choice and take responsibility for it, a BIG difference.

Last edited by 20yrshurt&r; 09/10/11 05:10 PM.

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Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: TimeHeals] #155862
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Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
Quote:
by definition this is an ultimatum.

"if you don't end your affair I will immediately file for divorce"


Agreed.

But... "I will not live in an open marriage" is a boundary.


Yes, it is...and it is also nothing more than word games. I will not live in an open marriage CLEARLY means we will divorce.

For people that speak plainly, there is exceptionally little differentiation between a hard boundary and an ultimatum.

"I will not stand here and be hit at without defending myself."

" Stop or I will harm you."

They both mean the same thing....doesn't matter what it's called.




Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #155863
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Quote:
You force them to make a choice and take responsibility for it, a BIG difference.


Nope....not at all.

And their response is not as automatic as you might suggest. In fact, I have lived and witnessed fantastic responses to ultimatums.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #155864
09/10/11 05:15 PM
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Just like I don't believe in writing and airtight contract for reconciling in the early stages before they agree to try. If you write a thirty item legalese list they will run the other way. If you start by telling them these are the three things I need to consider R with you you leave the door open to add to that list when they are receptive and have already taken the initial steps to R. You don't try to get a drunk to go to AA while still drunk. You wait till they decide they want to and own that they have a problem.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #155866
09/10/11 05:16 PM
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Your stuck on scripts, glad your spouse wasn't hard headed.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #155867
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Originally Posted By: 20yrshurt&r
Just like I don't believe in writing and airtight contract for reconciling in the early stages before they agree to try. If you write a thirty item legalese list they will run the other way. If you start by telling them these are the three things I need to consider R with you you leave the door open to add to that list when they are receptive and have already taken the initial steps to R. You don't try to get a drunk to go to AA while still drunk. You wait till they decide they want to and own that they have a problem.


YOU say they will run the other way. That is YOUR experience. It isn't mine and I certainly have seen FAR better results with ultimatums than any other action.




Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #155870
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This is where we disagree.

I can think of nothing more plain than stating a boundary, and I cannot think of anything that invites debate or additional conflict and counter-threats than a threat.

There is no debating with "I will not live in an open marriage". What is anybody going to say to that? "Yes you will"?



Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #155871
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Originally Posted By: 20yrshurt&r
Your stuck on scripts, glad your spouse wasn't hard headed.


I am not trying to change your thinking. I really have no interest in doing so. We don't and won't speak the same language(as evidenced by our responses to infidelity...there is NOTHING that would ever see me staying with a spouse that cheated for 20 years) and for that I am grateful(as I am sure you are for your views).

You do what works for you and I will do what is best for me. You have your script and to me it screams LIMBO. I like mine a whole lot better.

Peace.




Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: TimeHeals] #155872
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Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
This is where we disagree.

I can think of nothing more plain than stating a boundary, and I cannot think of anything that invites debate or additional conflict and counter-threats than a threat.

There is no debating with "I will not live in an open marriage". What is anybody going to say to that? "Yes you will"?



There is no room for counter threats....it is a statement...same as your boundary.

If this doesn't stop, we are divorcing. Same thing as "I will not live in an open marriage."

If your partner were to ask....what does that mean? You would have to say we will divorce....it is the same thing.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #155878
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Quote:
If your partner were to ask....what does that mean?


I would suspect they want to argue the point because nobody is that stupid, but they'd be saying it to my back becauase I'd be on my way to call an attorney to get papers ready.

It can take a while to get the seperation agreement ironed out. Might as well get started.


Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: TimeHeals] #155906
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You have your script and to me it screams LIMBO
Pretty disrespectful there med, in my situation we were on our way with R in less than 2 months when she started at a point of D and only D. Conjecture and assuming your way is the only way for everyone is a script and also disrespectful to those you attempt to force it on.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #155910
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And I'll add I stayed flexible in my approach to my wife and to others and how they feel. No plan survives first contact with the enemy in battle.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #156003
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In retrospect, for me there was a certain amount of hope in having an affair -- hope that there was something better for me out there somewhere, and, frankly, hope that my husband would wake up and smell the coffee.

I can now confess than when I ended the affair, I was VERY hopeful -- hopeful that we could have a different sort of marriage, one that was energizing and nurturing. Ending that affair was probably the most hopeful thing I did in the last decade. That hope got beaten out of me pretty damn quick, but it doesn't have to be that way.

I obviously no longer have that hope, and I am certainly not hopeful enough to have another affair. I'm resigned.

Perhaps for some unfaithful spouses, hope will snap them out of it. Not all, but some. For those, giving a reason to be hopeful that the marriage might be retooled to be what they crave might be what is needed.

Certainly, that places the onus on the faithful spouse, perhaps unfairly so. And perhaps not.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #156081
09/11/11 02:28 PM
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Coach Offline
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Originally Posted By: 20yrshurt&r
No plan survives first contact with the enemy in battle.


I went to a military college and spent 9 years as an officer and flew in combat leading multi-ship formations. Every plan survived first contact because we "what if'd" the situation. Each mission had control points at which certain parameters had to be met. ROE, personnel, fuel, timing, equipment, wx, communication ....... then there was a alternate mission, fall-back position, emergency landing sites, regeneration plans, and abort plans depending on where you were.

I have worked with Rangers, Seals, Marines, AF SOPs and I promise they plan thru first contact. They don't wait for first contact they initiate. Changes your mindset when you have a plan thought thru and have prepared.

Big difference between adapting to the situation and still achieving your objective and being flexible (indecisive).




Quote:
And I'll add I stayed flexible in my approach to my wife and to others and how they feel.


This isn't congruent with this:

Quote:
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #156082
09/11/11 02:30 PM
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Wonderland
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Lady,
While I don't think our marital problems caused my wife's affair, I do know showing self introspection and a willingness to make changes in myself to make our marriage work gave her hope that our marriage could work. It definitely eliminated her justifications for what she was doing which were not good reasons for actions.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #156236
09/12/11 01:33 AM
09/12/11 01:33 AM
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Wonderland
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Bad analogy on my part coach. Dealing with emotions and people are definitely not the same as an enemy that can be predicted to a degree and rock solid contingency plans laid down.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #156256
09/12/11 02:19 AM
09/12/11 02:19 AM
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Coach Offline
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Quote:
Dealing with emotions and people are definitely not the same as an enemy that can be predicted to a degree and rock solid contingency plans laid down.


Emotions and people can be predicted and you can have a rock solid plan. The "enemy" are human. Most people don't take the time to prepare.

Cheers



You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #156274
09/12/11 02:42 AM
09/12/11 02:42 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: 20yrshurt&r
Bad analogy on my part coach. Dealing with emotions and people are definitely not the same as an enemy that can be predicted to a degree and rock solid contingency plans laid down.


FWIW, I thought it was a really good analogy, although I have no military experience.

I heard you saying that the initial efforts to end the affair won't be successful. And they won't. I'll go out on a limb and say they won't 100 percent of the time. Boundary or ultimatum, it makes no difference.

From the standpoint of the faithful spouse, it may LOOK like the effort was successful: the no contact letter has been sent, all avenues of contact have been shut down, the polygraph has been demanded and secured, the unfaithful spouse has followed the remorse/repentance script -- check, check, check, win.

But unless you are doing SOMETHING to make your unfaithful spouse think things might be different, SOMETHING to make yourself a not actively hideous person to be around, which I consider a fairly low standard, SOMETHING that suggests you aren't going to maximize the leverage the affair gave you, I can ASSURE you, whether your spouse is male or female, that affair rages on in their hidden world.

I routinely fled to the memory of the Guy, a man who was nice to me, for a very long time, until the memory got too thin to grab.

I now flee elsewhere, but I still flee from my husband. Although I like to think I am unique, I doubt it.

A percentage of faithful spouses who believe the affair is "over" might be surprised at what their unfaithful spouse is, in fact, thinking.

A percentage of unfaithful spouses fall right into line with the faithful spouse calling the shots and it looks really good, and it may stay good looking.

A percentage of faithful spouses truly understand their role in the affair and are willing to table their need to be Right and do what it takes to heal the marriage.

The thing is, you can never know which category you are in unless your spouse trusts you enough to share with you. If you hear what we are told to say -- "the reason I had an affair is that I have poor boundaries around men/women," you may feel better, but you aren't getting good data as I SERIOUSLY doubt there are many unfaithful spouses who really believe that. I certainly don't. I believe my husband's treatment of me was a direct causative agent to me having an affair.

There are those of us who are not stupid enough to be honest with someone who is in a position to cause us major harm.

My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh, often an achievable goal, the MB program as executed by the forum is in my view being the best vehicle to secure that very outcome. I've now seen it effectively used towards that end numerous times.

I suggest deciding what outcome you want in "snapping them out of it" and conforming your conduct accordingly. Consider being honest with yourself about what you are really seeking, recognizing the distinct possibility that your spouse may not trust you enough to be honest with you, now or ever.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 09/12/11 02:56 AM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #156286
09/12/11 02:55 AM
09/12/11 02:55 AM
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Wonderland
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Lady, I certainly hope I've looked inward enough and my wife has chosen the path together. I know she still wonders how the OM is doing because she has been honest enough to tell me. She also tells me she is done with him or ever cheating again. I do think a person can change.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: 20yrsdone] #156289
09/12/11 02:59 AM
09/12/11 02:59 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: 20yrshurt&r
Lady, I certainly hope I've looked inward enough and my wife has chosen the path together. I know she still wonders how the OM is doing because she has been honest enough to tell me. She also tells me she is done with him or ever cheating again. I do think a person can change.


I wish you were the rule, not the exception.

You should be insanely proud of building that level of trust.

I won't cheat again. So yes, people can change.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #156341
09/12/11 01:39 PM
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MyRevelation Offline
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I really feel bad for Lord Grey.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Coach] #156362
09/12/11 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Coach
They don't wait for first contact they initiate. Changes your mindset when you have a plan thought thru and have prepared.


nod

Fight vs flight mentality?

You can see the mindset in the military, law enforcement/fire, even sports...the flight crowd usually gets creamed.






Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face...we must do that which we think we cannot.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #156366
09/12/11 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I heard you saying that the initial efforts to end the affair won't be successful. And they won't. I'll go out on a limb and say they won't 100 percent of the time. Boundary or ultimatum, it makes no difference.


My stbx chucked his APs under the bus on Dday. cool


Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face...we must do that which we think we cannot.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #156371
09/12/11 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
I really feel bad for Lord Grey.


I feel bad for her BH...can't win for losing.


Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face...we must do that which we think we cannot.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: black_raven] #156377
09/12/11 02:55 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: black_raven
Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
I really feel bad for Lord Grey.


I feel bad for her BH...can't win for losing.


I'll be sure to pass along your condolences.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #156379
09/12/11 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: black_raven
Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
I really feel bad for Lord Grey.


I feel bad for her BH...can't win for losing.


I'll be sure to pass along your condolences.


No you won't. smile

You know LG, I do feel bad for you...because you assume the worst in people...my stbx is like that which is just one reason he is my stbx. You and I may not be so different in many ways either. eek


Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face...we must do that which we think we cannot.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: black_raven] #156385
09/12/11 03:19 PM
09/12/11 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: black_raven
No you won't. smile


I concur, O&H are not in her toolkit.

However, I must admit to being amazed at just how much of a free pass LG gets on a Marriage Advocacy site.

She is unremorseful, continues to blame her BH for her decision to have an A, and openly speculates about her ultimate plan to D him once she gets everything set up in HER favor ... given these facts, not only does she not get taken to task by the Betrayed's on this forum, she is overwhelmingly given SUPPORT for her position.

I wonder just how many of her supporters have taken the time to even consider that her BH may have a completely opposite story to tell?

Posters really need to objectively use their own experiences to filter through other poster's bodies of work to make their own determinations as to the validity of what they read, because that screen will let them type on it anything they want.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ForeverHers] #156391
09/12/11 03:34 PM
09/12/11 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: ForeverHers

Originally Posted By: rob x
If infidelity is involved,
after you've discovered the affair and confronted your spouse about it and asked them to end the affair. If they choose not to end the affair, my point of view is to accept their decision and let them go and move on with my life instead of living in limbo and hoping they may come back some day.

I understand your viewpoint and you have every right, as does anyone, to issue an ultimatum and then walk away from the marriage. That right, imho, is ONE of the rights of any Betrayed Spouse. But its also NOT the only right or the only path that a Betrayed Spouse can choose for themselves. Tto call those who are willing to try to fight for their marriage living in limbo, in the WAY that you are talking about it, implies strongly that they are idiots for even trying to do anything other than issue and ultimatum of the end the affair TODAY or I am gone forever.

If you want to call the uncertain time before a WS ends an affair and wants to attempt to recover the marriage, limbo time, as in you are married but you dont have a strong loving marriage, then Id say thats fine. But to use the term as you do as some sort of derogatory statement toward those who do choose to endure what they can in order to hopefully save their marriage appears to be insensitive and meanall coming from the perspective of what YOU would do. You are not them, neither am I. And, yes, I lived in limbo of one sort or another for quite some time and now have a strong recovered marriage where my wife not only loves me deeply but is disgusted with her former OM and her former affair behavior.


Implies strongly that they are idiots?

FH let me be clear on one thing,
If I'm going to call someone an idiot or any other name for that matter, I'm not going to "imply", I'm just going to come out and say it, "hey you're being an idiot!", since I haven't said anything even remotely close to that don't put words in my mouth. From what I remember I didn't call anyone an idiot, I'm pretty sure about that.

If you confront your spouse who is cheating on you, let them know that you know about the affair, ask them to stop the affair and invest 110% wholeheartedly into repairing the relationship and working on something new that is beneficial to both of you and they still do not choose to be with you, all I am saying and have said in hundreds of previous posts related to this topic is to respect their decision and move on with you life instead of living in limbo and hoping that they will change their mind if you continue to ask them, follow them, stalk them, text, email, phone, etc because this is the behavior of quite a few LBS's in this situation. If you really love your spouse that much and they have told you without a doubt that they are not happy with you and have found happiness and love with someone else, love them enough to let them pursue their happiness even if that means ending their marriage to you. If you continue to communicate that you want the opposite of what they want, that they are wrong for wanting and loving someone else, you will only succeed in pushing them further away. If you don't believe me, scan the numerous threads in this forum where the LBS's have done just that, I'm not making this stuff up, this is the reality of the situation.

When a person wants to be with you they will do whatever is required to be with you. When they don't want to be with you, they will leave you and pursue the person they want to be with. I didn't make up this rule, I didn't invent this process, this is reality, this is what's happening. When you let go of your cheating spouse and move on with your life, this is probably the best chance you have at ever reconciling with them, counter-intuitive as it may sound. You let them go, move on with your life, you don't hang in there waiting for them to change their mind because all you do is communicate that you have no value whatsoever that you would waste your entire life waiting for them to change their mind while they are in love with someone else, in a relationship with someone else. The LBS that hangs in there for several months to several years waiting for their WAS to change their mind know this answer to be true. Why should it take the WAS several months to several years to want to come back and have a relationship with the LBS? The WAS typically doesn't show any signs of interest in coming back until you show them that you don't want them anymore and you have moved on with your life and are starting to pursue your interests in whatever form that comes in. The LBS that moves on with their life will feel better about themselves, they will shed their co-dependent, clingy skin and find that attractive individual they used to be before their relationship and marriage, they will learn, adapt and grow from the process and they will feel much better about themselves - they will rediscover their self-esteem, their self-value, self-respect and they will become much more attractive to everyone around them including themselves and feel good about the decision they made to let go of their cheating spouse - you let go of the people that don't value you or the relationship they have with you, this shows that you respect them and give them the space that they apparently need from you since they don't want to be with you and it shows you respect yourself - which again is very attractive vs. being the clingy low value/low self-esteem person that can't move on with their life when their spouse finds someone new they want to be with instead.


Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #156393
09/12/11 03:39 PM
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Wonderland
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LG most on here think I'm off in left field with my approach. I am proud of the level of trust and open honest communication my wife and I have built. Just like R, it takes two to make this and I wonder if you and your H REALLY put the effort into trying and fighting for it.


Accept what is,
Let go of what was
and have faith in what will be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #156398
09/12/11 03:55 PM
09/12/11 03:55 PM
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futureunknown Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
In retrospect, for me there was a certain amount of hope in having an affair -- hope that there was something better for me out there somewhere, and, frankly, hope that my husband would wake up and smell the coffee.

I can now confess than when I ended the affair, I was VERY hopeful -- hopeful that we could have a different sort of marriage, one that was energizing and nurturing. Ending that affair was probably the most hopeful thing I did in the last decade. That hope got beaten out of me pretty damn quick, but it doesn't have to be that way.

I obviously no longer have that hope, and I am certainly not hopeful enough to have another affair. I'm resigned.

Perhaps for some unfaithful spouses, hope will snap them out of it. Not all, but some. For those, giving a reason to be hopeful that the marriage might be retooled to be what they crave might be what is needed.

Certainly, that places the onus on the faithful spouse, perhaps unfairly so. And perhaps not.


LadyGrey, once again you seem to be acting as a surrogate for my estranged W. Wow, reading your words is like a line into her thoughts. She acted exactly as you describe. I could see how her affair rekindled hope in her, hope she seemed to have abandoned long ago in our marriage, and when her affair ended, she did take that hope and point it toward me and our marriage.

Unfortunately, she seemed totally indifferent to the damage her affair had done. It was like "Ok, ok, my affair is over, now just think of the marriage we can have!" I'm sitting there thinking "What? What about the lying, and cheating, and manipulation, and disrespect? Am I just supposed to forget about all that?"

I had changed in big ways. She saw it and liked it. I made it clear to her I had other options, and was not going to wait around forever. There was a mutual admiration and respect between us that even went beyond that from our early dating years. But... she could see I wasn't going to just let all she had done be forgotten and forgiven so easily, and given her memories of the years of no hope in our marriage, she quickly pulled back her hope, to protect it. I get it, and it makes me sad.

I don't know if there was an emotional goat path somewhere between us that could traverse the emotional damage and distrust, and find a way to trust and hope, but I do know I couldn't find it.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: futureunknown] #156401
09/12/11 04:07 PM
09/12/11 04:07 PM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I keep going back to my own experience, trying to figure out what the magic key was. But my "snap" out of it was made before I ever confessed....so I am not sure it applies. Except that maybe somewhere in there lies the truth that a WS has to make the ultimate decision themselves. I asked h several times about the other scenario - me getting caught. He said the M.O. would have been the same - the one time opportunity for me to repent and commit to the M or he was out the door. I know it is easy for him to say what he "would have" done...but passive as he may seem, I believe him. he would not have made a big fuss....he would have done what he did when he found out I broke NC not long after D-Day: he would have calmly packed a bag, told me not to get out of bed, and left.

Boundary, ultimatum, it does really seem like word play. He told me clearly what he could not live with, and when I "tested" that theory, he followed through. I knew full well NEVER to test it again.

After the snap out of it......well, for a long time I didn't even think about my own needs because I was just so....horrified at what I had done I wanted to help heal it. Then I really thought I saw us changing. Then when I realized life was going back to the way it had been, I spent a long time thinking "How can I leave after what I did??" Then the long period of trying so so hard......

In the end, I believe I can say with a clear conscience that my A had nothing to do with the eventual outcome of our M these 5 + years later. But then again, I will never be completely inside h's head. I do not know what I would have done if he had been a BS who never ever let it go and never missed an opportunity to make sure I knew my "place" be bringing it up. That is a whole other issue. I spent a lot of time feeling like a pariah, but it was never my H who made me feel that way, which I think is to his immense credit.

And one thing I love about coming here is that I never have to feel like a pariah again.

For BS's.....I have never been in your shoes, but the more the self-imposed scales fall from my own eyes the more I can see the logic, sense, and compassion towards self that a "this is what I will live with, you are in or out" stance makes. I can see forgiveness and working to be the best option AFTER a WS has jettisoned the AP.....but spending months and years trying to be good enough while the AP cake-eats......that just sounds less and less like something I could survive were I ever in that situation.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: herfuturesbright] #156403
09/12/11 04:13 PM
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LivingWell Offline
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LG, please don't engage with *them* on their level or for their purposes.

I haven't followed your posts for a long time and only catch some here and there......and I don't do nearly the amount of reading in general that I used to do so I am *out of the loop* as to what is going on at MA and can only go by what I saw before I stopped reading so much......so I need to ask......

Has this been going on for some time to this degree.....or is this something recent?

If I didn't think that it was a counterproductive idea on a personal level as well as on an MA level to Notify anything, I would Notify to see if you could get special rules and special Moderator accomodation like someone else got. You can PM me if you want.....I don't have any good ideas as of this moment.....but I'll try to think of some, if you want.


Last edited by LivingWell; 09/12/11 04:20 PM. Reason: completed thought
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LivingWell] #156414
09/12/11 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: LivingWell
LG, please don't engage with *them* on their level or for their purposes.


Assuming I'm one of the "them" ... where is my level and what do you think are my purposes?

Quote:
I would Notify to see if you could get special rules and special Moderator accomodation like someone else got.


What makes you think LG doesn't ALREADY have "special rules and special Moderator accomodation"?

Do you know of another "wayward" poster who gets to bash their BH without question?

What would those "special rules and special Moderator accomodations" look like?

How would those "special rules" benefit "Marriage Advocacy"?

LW, I know how much you like to explore with questions ... it would seem reasonable that is how you prefer to interact ... if so, possibly this approach will help us understand your "level" and "purpose".

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #156417
09/12/11 04:42 PM
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rob x Offline
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let's play nice everyone,
I only just posted to this thread recently after being away for a bit, I've read the last several posts, I personally don't see any issues to be alarmed about, I don't think LG is attacking anyone or being attacked, for what it's worth, LW I think your post may have started something that didn't need to be started - I think it's possible for adults to engage in this discussion openly and freely.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: rob x] #156433
09/12/11 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: rob x
...LW I think your post may have started something that didn't need to be started - I think it's possible for adults to engage in this discussion openly and freely.

Thank you for being direct, rob x.

I appreciate knowing that from your point of view that my post may have "started" something.....because it tells me how much others might see, or not......and how it appears when someone no longer shuts up about it.

Not sure if that awareness will result in any changes but it might, who knows.

While I'm replying to you, rob x, I want to mention that I have only read a few of your posts......what I have read, I liked a lot and from those few posts can see why you have such a good reputation. I don't read more of your posts because they're hard on my eyes without paragraph spacing.....and I'm wondering if there are others who don't read them for the same reason. Just in case you want to increase your readership at MA. grin

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #156437
09/12/11 05:08 PM
09/12/11 05:08 PM
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LivingWell Offline
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Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
LW, I know how much you like to explore with questions ... it would seem reasonable that is how you prefer to interact ... if so, possibly this approach will help us understand your "level" and "purpose".

MyRevelation......I strongly suspect that questions I pose are for a distinctly different purpose than the one for which you pose questions.

If an Admin or BoD were to pose those questions, I would answer them.

I hope this explains why I won't be responding on this thread.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LivingWell] #156439
09/12/11 05:22 PM
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This topic is locked temporarily pending review.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: star*fish] #156868
09/13/11 04:08 PM
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Larry Offline
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This topic is unlocked but remains under review at the Board of Directors level and including Moderators and Admins.

Larry


It's often the truth we hide from ourselves that causes the most damage in life.

My old email address no longer works.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: MyRevelation] #156887
09/13/11 04:30 PM
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catperson Offline
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Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
What makes you think LG doesn't ALREADY have "special rules and special Moderator accomodation"?

Do you know of another "wayward" poster who gets to bash their BH without question?
Just to clear, that would be "former wayward."

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: catperson] #156895
09/13/11 04:34 PM
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MyRevelation Offline
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Originally Posted By: catperson
Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
What makes you think LG doesn't ALREADY have "special rules and special Moderator accomodation"?

Do you know of another "wayward" poster who gets to bash their BH without question?
Just to clear, that would be "former wayward."


Others Mileage May Vary

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: catperson] #156901
09/13/11 04:42 PM
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Not quite here
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Shall we clarify what is FW and what is just wayward?

My definition of FW would be taking total responsibility for the choice to have an A?

Anyone else's definition?

Wayward to me would be continuation of blaming the BS......this does not mean a WS/FWS is unable to complain or seek help to cope with behaviour of their BS that they are not happy with.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Squeaky Tree] #156908
09/13/11 04:48 PM
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IDK, it seems pretty plain that former means no longer doing it.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: catperson] #156926
09/13/11 05:10 PM
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Chrysalis Offline
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Originally Posted By: catperson
IDK, it seems pretty plain that former means no longer doing it.


Lots of people quit their affairs but do not take steps to fix their side of the marriage street. That to me is not "former" wayward. It is another affair waiting to happen.

As for the question that started this thread, the experience in my marriage was that he didn't "snap" out of it-- it was a long, grueling, process for both of us. I look at him today and he is a different man. I have no desire to see that other guy return!

"Former" waywards have given up the sense of entitlement that allowed them to make the affair choice in the first place, and replaced it with humility and grace.

IMHO.

And one more thing. I don't think we have the right to award or deny the "F" letter to our forum friends. That is to be negotiated and worked out between spouses, and it is hard work. What we can legitimately do is confront a specific instance of unclear thinking or misplaced attitude, with kindness and truth.

Kindness without truth is not kindness at all. Truth without kindness is going to fall on deaf ears, or drive the struggler farther into their woes.


Chrysalis
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #156938
09/13/11 05:38 PM
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This discussion just reinforces to me that I am not a fan of labelling people as wayward, former wayward, etc. The WS/WAS/LBS/BS can be a useful shorthand for communicating in the forum, but I find the whole "scarlet letter" vibe when referring to people who have had affair(s) in the past rather distasteful. We have all made bad choices in the past, in different areas of life. We are more than our past choices and we should all be focusing on the micro-decisions we make every day - decisions to be honest, to communicate, to connect, to improve ourselves, etc.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: catperson] #156940
09/13/11 05:39 PM
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I hope you can forgive the t/j here, AtTheEnd. I will respond to your initial question and reasons for this thread, but I also want to respond to statements that were made before.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
If you hear what we are told to say -- "the reason I had an affair is that I have poor boundaries around men/women," you may feel better, but you aren't getting good data as I SERIOUSLY doubt there are many unfaithful spouses who really believe that.

I understand this is your opinion, LdG. You were clear to not state it as fact. I haven't polled any unfaithful spouses (current) so maybe few unfaithful spouses would say that. However, if you're talking about formerly unfaithful spouses (past), I am one of them and I do believe that is why I decided to cheat.

I wasn't told to say anything. And even if I was, I don't have to say it. No one can make me or anyone else do or say anything. I had an affair in very large part due to my poor boundaries. And I really believe that.

When I was in my A I believed I deserved whatever made me happy and because I blamed my H for my unhappiness, I also mostly blamed him for me having an A. While I was cheating, I didn't take into account that I was also responsible for my unhappiness and that I was the one at fault for the A not my H. I mean, he wasn't the one having late night phone conversations with the OM and he wasn't the one who lied to meet OM in the parking lot. I was.

I chose to have an affair because I thought it better to feel good in my fantasy land with the fantasy man. That was far more exciting for me then confronting the failure of my M. I chose to lower my boundaries around men, loosen my morals, and be okay with doing things I previously never ever considered simply because it was easier to talk with and be gushed over by OM then it was to tackle my ugly marriage, face my angry husband, and admit my M was likely over. It was much more fun getting OM's attention than it was for me to call a lawyer.

I came to discover my reasons -- those that made sense to me (considering how nonsensical it all was otherwise) and it turns out my reasons are true -- I lowered my boundaries and made poor decisions that allowed my vulnerabilities to be tempted. And once they were and it felt great, I threw my better judgments aside and knowingly opted to selfishly satisfy my desires instead of facing up to and doing what I knew was best for my family.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
There are those of us who are not stupid enough to be honest with someone who is in a position to cause us major harm.

So are those who are honest with someone in a position to do harm stupid? Aren't all adults in a position to do harm, thanks to weapons and poisons and "accidents"?

Do you believe because I and others who are honest with their Hs, who have a history of emotional and verbal abuse, are stupid?

Is it okay to also apply a derogatory label to a person who is willingly with someone who is in a position to cause him/her major harm? I don't believe so but I think it's a good question to think about.

Maybe we should consider the possibility that it is dishonesty and the omission of information that entices those capable of doing harm to act out in harmful ways. My H gets far more angry when he discovers a lie then when he hears a truth that he doesnt like.

I know about willingly being with someone who may not have my best interests. Yet I tell the truth for my own self-worth and integrity. I want to make decisions based on honest information and I work to provide that same courtesy for others.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh, often an achievable goal, the MB program as executed by the forum is in my view being the best vehicle to secure that very outcome. I've now seen it effectively used towards that end numerous times.

I have seen the opposite here on MA and on MB. I see BSs wanting to get their WSs back so they can improve their Ms. Who are these "most" that you refer too? Who are all these people who have compelled you to state that most BSs are motivated to get their spouses back "to secure the pound of flesh?

The recovered marriages I see on MA -- including those that I know used MB as one of if not their only guide -- were motivated to stay with their spouse and have a better M, not stay married just to punish their WS. And from what I see throughout this forum, this desire to have a better M is the rule, not the exception.

The many BSs who are in recovering or recovered marriages who also post, those whom I can think of, are not beating their FWSs over the head regarding the A or using the A to practice dominance over their M. I can name a couple dozen couples that I've met through the MB and MA forums who have caring and respectful Ms where seemingly both partners are lovingly working to keep their M among the most fulfilling and meaningful and special relationships in their lives.

End t/j

AtTheEnd, what snapped me out of the A what made me end contact with the OM was a combination of an ultimatum by OMs wife and my own pride what very little was left of it.

The OM's BW found emails and he confessed and told her about the A. On the spot of discovery, he texted me that it was over, he did not love me, he loved his W, and was going to try to save his M. His wife also texted me and said if I ever contacted her H, she would tell my H everything. So the ultimatum/threat from her and me not wanting to let OM think he had me so completely under his thumb that I would contact him after he clearly chose his W over me those two things ended the A.

But what LdG cautioned against was indeed the case for me. Even though the A ended and contact stopped, I still carried OM with me in my mind for several months after. The physical contact had stopped but he lived with me in my thoughts and as LdG suggested might be the case, the A raged on in there for quite a while.

I ended up confessing the A to my H 4 months after it ended. I didn't love my H and I told him because I was consumed by shame and because I thought he deserved to know. I believed we were going to D. (I thought him knowing might get him to do the filing something I was too chicken to do, leading back to what I wrote above about not wanting to face the failure of my M.)

What got me out of the fog and got OM out of my head ended up happening after D-day. My H and I experienced several extremely intense months of sharing, hurt, honesty, confusion, euphoria, shame, intimacy, and many other emotions. We also many many hours together since I was unemployed and my H works from home. Those two things honest sharing and time spent together are what I believe snapped me out of it going through it all with H. I told him all that he wanted to know. He told me what I wanted to know. We had known each other since high school yet we discovered new things about each other during that time.

Seeing him care and seeing parts of him that I hadn't seen in a long time or maybe had never seen and liking what I saw helped bring me back. He admitted he was flawed and that he cared for me. We were honest with each other I think because we wanted the other to have all the data so s/he could make whatever decision was best for him/her. At least, that's why I decided to be O&H so H could make the best decision for him based on truths. The lying was so hard to live with.

Our D-day was almost three years ago. We've had one heck of a roller-coaster ride since and I'm struggling with things between us that existed before my A even today as my H might be too. But we're better now than we've been in almost 9 years. Still more to do but we're better.

So to answer two of your questions What snapped me out of it was the ultimatum and remembering integrity is important to me from me and from others.

What brought me out of the fog was seeing my H care for me after believing for several years that he didn't. Once I believed that and could see how different that kind of care was verses the kind that the OM offered (the kind that also required me to disrespect myself and my vows and the people I had promised to care for), the fog was gone. I saw my H for who he was and the FOM for who he was. The comparison helped me see more clearly.

This has become way too long so if you want to know more about how long it took, how I felt, and where my H was through all of this, you can read my thread on The Way Station forum under "The Lighthouse" board.

Good luck to you, AtTheEnd.

Last edited by Looking4; 09/13/11 05:56 PM.

Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #156942
09/13/11 05:43 PM
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Amadahy Offline
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I am a FWW.

I had CRAPPY boundaries that directly lead to me seeking out OM to inflate my constantly collapsing self esteem. The ONS had nothing to do with what H lacked...everything to do with what I lacked...possibly it could be linked to some of Hs behaviors that helped deflate my self esteem but that is just the issue right...self esteem needs to come from self. A strong person knows who they are regardless of what their spouse or anyone else does. Crappy boundaries AGAIN...allowing other peoples actions and opinions to define and shape who I was rather than owning who I am and deciding for myself what and who I will be.

and what snapped me out of the fog was being raped by the OM and his friends. CRAPPY BOUNDARIES lead to hurt, heart ache and in my case actually PHYSICAL ASSAULT.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: flowmom] #156943
09/13/11 05:44 PM
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Amadahy Offline
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
This discussion just reinforces to me that I am not a fan of labelling people as wayward, former wayward, etc. The WS/WAS/LBS/BS can be a useful shorthand for communicating in the forum, but I find the whole "scarlet letter" vibe when referring to people who have had affair(s) in the past rather distasteful. We have all made bad choices in the past, in different areas of life. We are more than our past choices and we should all be focusing on the micro-decisions we make every day - decisions to be honest, to communicate, to connect, to improve ourselves, etc.
i agree with this.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: catperson] #156972
09/13/11 06:44 PM
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Medc Offline
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Originally Posted By: catperson
IDK, it seems pretty plain that former means no longer doing it.


doesn't seem that simple to me.

I think a former wayward has assumed all the responsibility for their actions AND has done all that they can to make amends. They do not blame shift or offer excuses for their behavior. They don't continue to lie to their spouse. People that do so are IMHO, still wayward.

A former wayward would NEVER have another affair.




Last edited by Medc; 09/13/11 06:45 PM.


Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #156987
09/13/11 07:08 PM
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That is horrible, how are you emotionally now?

tink

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Chrysalis] #157009
09/13/11 07:50 PM
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Looking4 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chrysalis
Originally Posted By: catperson
IDK, it seems pretty plain that former means no longer doing it.


Lots of people quit their affairs but do not take steps to fix their side of the marriage street. That to me is not "former" wayward. It is another affair waiting to happen.

As for the question that started this thread, the experience in my marriage was that he didn't "snap" out of it-- it was a long, grueling, process for both of us. I look at him today and he is a different man. I have no desire to see that other guy return!

"Former" waywards have given up the sense of entitlement that allowed them to make the affair choice in the first place, and replaced it with humility and grace.

IMHO.

And one more thing. I don't think we have the right to award or deny the "F" letter to our forum friends. That is to be negotiated and worked out between spouses, and it is hard work. What we can legitimately do is confront a specific instance of unclear thinking or misplaced attitude, with kindness and truth.

Kindness without truth is not kindness at all. Truth without kindness is going to fall on deaf ears, or drive the struggler farther into their woes.

This is an EXCELLENT post, Chrysalis, from start to finish.

And FWIW, I agree with every single word.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #157015
09/13/11 08:15 PM
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Looking4 Offline
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
This discussion just reinforces to me that I am not a fan of labelling people as wayward, former wayward, etc. The WS/WAS/LBS/BS can be a useful shorthand for communicating in the forum, but I find the whole "scarlet letter" vibe when referring to people who have had affair(s) in the past rather distasteful. We have all made bad choices in the past, in different areas of life. We are more than our past choices and we should all be focusing on the micro-decisions we make every day - decisions to be honest, to communicate, to connect, to improve ourselves, etc.

Flowmom -- I don't get around MA much so I'm curious... Based on your perception, is there a scarlet letter vibe here on MA?

And AtTheEnd?... Is our discussion and it's zigs and zags helping you at all?


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157019
09/13/11 08:19 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
If you hear what we are told to say -- "the reason I had an affair is that I have poor boundaries around men/women," you may feel better, but you aren't getting good data as I SERIOUSLY doubt there are many unfaithful spouses who really believe that.


I understand this is your opinion, LdG. You were clear to not state it as fact. I haven't polled any unfaithful spouses (current) so maybe few unfaithful spouses would say that. However, if you're talking about formerly unfaithful spouses (past), I am one of them and I do believe that is why I decided to cheat.


I fear that for the umpteenth time, my message is stumbling on my very strict definition of causation.

I don't believe many unfaithful spouses would agree that poor boundaries were the sole and proximate cause of the affair. There are, in my opinion, always other factors at play, like, for example, the availability of someone with whom to have an affair, his or her presence and availability also being causative factors.

In my opinion and experience, poor boundaries allow for the affair, but don't cause it, one reason I am a big beleiver in EP's as they ensure that regardless of what is going on in my life and in my heart, I won't be making that particular mistake again. I've had the same boundaries around men my whole adult life, but I wasn't vulnerable. I became vulnerable because of a confluence of events, and my poor boundaries put me in the position where another man was meeting my needs. Had I had better boundaries, I would not have been in that position.

Originally Posted By: L4
I wasn't told to say anything. And even if I was, I don't have to say it. No one can make me or anyone else do or say anything. I had an affair in very large part due to my poor boundaries. And I really believe that.


I was told to say exactly that and not elaborate. You are correct - no one made me, but I was trying to do the right thing.

Look, I'm not saying that is a BAD thing to say or that it's not true - I'm saying that in my opinion it is an incomplete answer. The recipient isn't getting data which may be valuable depending upon the desired outcome.

On the other hand, there really isn't an answer that is acceptable even though it may be true.

Originally Posted By: L4
When I was in my A I believed I deserved whatever made me happy and because I blamed my H for my unhappiness, I also mostly blamed him for me having an A.


I think I'm also stumbling on the concept of blame which has an element of causation to it. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. There are actions that make a given result more of less likely.

Originally Posted By: L4
While I was cheating, I didn't take into account that I was also responsible for my unhappiness and that I was the one at fault for the A not my H. I mean, he wasn't the one having late night phone conversations with the OM and he wasn't the one who lied to meet OM in the parking lot. I was.

I chose to have an affair because I thought it better to feel good in my fantasy land with the fantasy man. That was far more exciting for me then confronting the failure of my M. I chose to lower my boundaries around men, loosen my morals, and be okay with doing things I previously never ever considered simply because it was easier to talk with and be gushed over by OM then it was to tackle my ugly marriage, face my angry husband, and admit my M was likely over. It was much more fun getting OM's attention than it was for me to call a lawyer.

I came to discover my reasons -- those that made sense to me (considering how nonsensical it all was otherwise) and it turns out my reasons are true -- I lowered my boundaries and made poor decisions that allowed my vulnerabilities to be tempted. And once they were and it felt great, I threw my better judgments aside and knowingly opted to selfishly satisfy my desires instead of facing up to and doing what I knew was best for my family.


My reasons were different from yours. My understanding of how it happened is different from yours. And that is OK because I am different from you and my life is different from yours.

I think the important thing is that we honestly evaluate our vulnerabilities and weaknesses and seek to shore up those areas. For example, I know I tend to give into my fear. I am working on facing my fear and speaking more honestly, which of course requires that I know what I think/feel which is a whole separate challenge. I may not be progressing at a speed that some find satisfactory, but I am progressing. It's tricky for me. It's easy for others. Others may find aspects of their relationship tricky that I find easy. We are all different.

The sin, to me, would be if we failed to grow from the experience.

Originally Posted By: L4
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
There are those of us who are not stupid enough to be honest with someone who is in a position to cause us major harm.



So are those who are honest with someone in a position to do harm stupid? Aren't all adults in a position to do harm, thanks to weapons and poisons and "accidents"?

Do you believe because I and others who are honest with their Hs, who have a history of emotional and verbal abuse, are stupid?

Is it okay to also apply a derogatory label to a person who is willingly with someone who is in a position to cause him/her major harm? I don't believe so but I think it's a good question to think about.

Maybe we should consider the possibility that it is dishonesty and the omission of information that entices those capable of doing harm to act out in harmful ways. My H gets far more angry when he discovers a lie then when he hears a truth that he doesnt like.

I know about willingly being with someone who may not have my best interests. Yet I tell the truth for my own self-worth and integrity. I want to make decisions based on honest information and I work to provide that same courtesy for others.


I apologize for offending you. We have differences in our lives which color how we interpret this statement.

Originally Posted By: L4
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh, often an achievable goal, the MB program as executed by the forum is in my view being the best vehicle to secure that very outcome. I've now seen it effectively used towards that end numerous times.


I have seen the opposite here on MA and on MB. I see BSs wanting to get their WSs back so they can improve their Ms. Who are these "most" that you refer too? Who are all these people who have compelled you to state that most BSs are motivated to get their spouses back "to secure the pound of flesh?

The recovered marriages I see on MA -- including those that I know used MB as one of if not their only guide -- were motivated to stay with their spouse and have a better M, not stay married just to punish their WS. And from what I see throughout this forum, this desire to have a better M is the rule, not the exception.
[/quote]

It is possible you and I could read the same posts and have diametrically opposed opinions on this point. It is also possible that you would not include on the list those who beat up on surrogate unfaithful spouses but claim to have recovered. I do include them.

Originally Posted By: L4
The many BSs who are in recovering or recovered marriages who also post, those whom I can think of, are not beating their FWSs over the head regarding the A or using the A to practice dominance over their M. I can name a couple dozen couples that I've met through the MB and MA forums who have caring and respectful Ms where seemingly both partners are lovingly working to keep their M among the most fulfilling and meaningful and special relationships in their lives.


I think that is terrific and I applaud those who choose not use the affair to beat up the unfaithful spouse, real or surrogate.

Originally Posted By: L4
The physical contact had stopped but he lived with me in my thoughts and as LdG suggested might be the case, the A raged on in there for quite a while.


This was the main point I was trying to make in response to the "surviving initial contact with the enemy" metaphor, that while the end of the affair might look good on paper from the standpoint of the faithful spouse, the unfaithful spouse has to finish the process. The timing may be unfortunate in that those weeks following the official end may coincide with unpleasant happenings in the marriage, making it harder to stick with NC. At least that was my experience.

The phrase "snapping out of it" implies to me an event, and I think some may experience it as a process. Being alert to that possibility may be helpful.

(As a total aside, mentally picturing a huge black cockroach flying right at my face when I would think about the Guy actually really worked - and quickly too! If you are following along and struggling with ending it, try it!)

I don't post my thoughts here because I'm sitting around waiting to get some popularity award. I am well aware of what I am supposed to think, and maybe some day I will. I post them because if it helps someone like futureunknown understand his wife a little better, he may find healing in that understanding and avoid certain pitfalls in the future - like my bet is he will keep a close eye on the "hope" ball - or it helps someone understand that their wandering spouse may need assurance that returning to the marriage isn't emotional suicide, then it is worth being spoken to the way I am spoken to and reading the things I read about myself.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157020
09/13/11 08:36 PM
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AtTheEnd? Offline OP
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Thanks for all of the input and please continue the discussion. This is all very informative and insightful. My stbx has OM and they are very serious. He is separated from his W and last I heard intends to D his W, although he is keeping relationship with stbx a secret.

The D is almost complete and I'm moving forward with my life. I'm looking to purchase a home and start dating. Things are looking good and I believe it's sad to put an end to this part of my life, but it's the only option. I'm worth much more than being given, and what I've received. I'm told that I'm completely to blame for all of this, so there wasn't ever a chance to get through.

I dread all interaction with stbx, but sharing three children makes that difficult to avoid. She appears happy and gleeful, but I try not to let it bother me. It's shallow, but I let the appearance and qualities of the OM effect me. It's like a slap in the face the level that she has stooped. I believe affair-down was a term that I read somewhere, although this isn't really an affair if we are D. It's just him.

Onward with life, and I do have to say that it does look very positive. I have quite a bit to offer and no longer fear of the unknown. I've dealt with the most difficult thing in my life, and came out stronger and healthier. I have a lingering "why?", but I'll never get a satisfactory answer, and I'm not certain that I care any longer.

Thanks to all, and please continue.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #157023
09/13/11 08:40 PM
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If you haven't done so already, tell the other betrayed spouse about the affair. She should not have to be kept in the dark.

Pay zero attention to anything that comes from the mouth of your STBX. She is a liar and a cheat and is not to be believed about anything.

You definitely ARE worth A LOT more than what she has given you. I hope you have a great father's rights attorney that will get you the best custody arrangement possible.

You will be fine. Be the best dad you can be and learn from this experience.




Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #157036
09/13/11 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
That is horrible, how are you emotionally now?

tink


i am okay.
When one is dealing with the guilt of cheating it is hard.
When one has to compound that with the knowledge that their cheating, their betrayal, what THEY did directly resulted in their rape.

Rape is normally something outside of a womans control.

Mine was a result of my infidelity...so lets load about another truck load of "what a crappy person am I" and spread it around my self esteem garden.

That being said...i own my mistakes and I am working towards being a strong person who does not allow men to manipulate her or use her...any man...ever.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #157051
09/13/11 09:55 PM
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L4:

I wanted to state that that was a real fine post you made up there.

SFB


Finding an ethical way to deal with pain, fear, disappointment etc..is part of the experience of becoming a stronger person...one who is driven by compassion instead of compulsion...ie I have a legitimate reason to be stressed out right now...however, my response to it will determine how others percieve me, and myself. (quoting Star*Fish)
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #157075
09/13/11 11:09 PM
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frown you didn't deserve it......never did you

Last edited by tinkerbell; 09/13/11 11:20 PM.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #157173
09/14/11 03:47 PM
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Misty Offline
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Originally Posted By: Amadahy
Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
That is horrible, how are you emotionally now?

tink


i am okay.
When one is dealing with the guilt of cheating it is hard.
When one has to compound that with the knowledge that their cheating, their betrayal, what THEY did directly resulted in their rape.

Rape is normally something outside of a womans control.

Mine was a result of my infidelity...so lets load about another truck load of "what a crappy person am I" and spread it around my self esteem garden.

That being said...i own my mistakes and I am working towards being a strong person who does not allow men to manipulate her or use her...any man...ever.


NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Stop it. Rape is ALWAYS something outside of a woman's control.

You did not cause the rape by your infidelity. I am so tired of hearing you say that when it is am absolute LIE. You made a mistake by putting yourself in a dangerous position but the rapists are 100% responsible for the rape.

Even if a woman were to walk naked down a dark alley, she would not be responsible for being raped. She is only guilty of doing something stupid and not taking care of herself.


I am working very hard to heal after 8 years in an emotionally abusive marriage.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #157174
09/14/11 03:48 PM
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Medc,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Things turned out well, considering the circumstances. I've tried to remove myself from all of the drama occurring in my stbx's life, and for the other couple, they seem to be serial cheats (both of them). This is the life my stbx has chosen, and I'm not here to save her. It's hard enough saving myself and children.

Life goes on, and it looks promising. Looking toward the future, but living today.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #157176
09/14/11 03:55 PM
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Amadahy,

I'm so sorry for what happened to you. You are not responsible for those actions. Do not live with the blame or guilt.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Misty] #157470
09/15/11 09:42 AM
09/15/11 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: Misty
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Stop it. Rape is ALWAYS something outside of a woman's control.

You did not cause the rape by your infidelity. I am so tired of hearing you say that when it is am absolute LIE. You made a mistake by putting yourself in a dangerous position but the rapists are 100% responsible for the rape.

Even if a woman were to walk naked down a dark alley, she would not be responsible for being raped. She is only guilty of doing something stupid and not taking care of herself.

I pray that someday you will come to believe and accept this, Amadahy, because it is the truth. Those who hurt you are responsible for their actions. Those people and those alone.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #157471
09/15/11 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
Thanks for all of the input and please continue the discussion. This is all very informative and insightful. My stbx has OM and they are very serious. He is separated from his W and last I heard intends to D his W, although he is keeping relationship with stbx a secret.

...

Thanks to all, and please continue.

I don't follow the divorce boards, AtTheEnd? and wasn't familiar with your story. I don't know you but you sound upbeat, especially for what you're going through. I hope things continue looking good and your course remains positive.

Take care.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157472
09/15/11 09:54 AM
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Thank you for taking the time to respond to me, LdG.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I don't believe many unfaithful spouses would agree that poor boundaries were the sole and proximate cause of the affair. There are, in my opinion, always other factors at play, like, for example, the availability of someone with whom to have an affair, his or her presence and availability also being causative factors.

But you didn't say this. You stated that you doubt any unfaithful spouse believes that is the reason. You didn't state that you doubt any unfaithful spouse believes it's the "sole" reason. You didn't qualify your statement with possible other factors. And both Amadahy and I disputed what you claimed.

I agree with what you put following, about how important it is for the BS to make changes otherwise the OP can live on in the WS's head.

When I find myself flinching, LdG, is when you make statements on behalf of FWSs or FWWs, painting us all with the same brush.

Yes, we likely have things in common -- the most unifying being that we were with someone outside of our M. But why each individual chose to have an A, how each of us went about it, what our response was when it ended, what our M was like before, how our spouse responded on D-day, what our spouse asks, what our spouse is doing for or against us, how we are working through the A ourselves, how forums may or may not be helping us, how our M is today... In every one of those and hundreds of other aspects, us FWSs may be very different.

We may have similarities, but we may not. And I bristle when you project that your situations and feelings and reactions and ways of doing things are the same situations, feelings, reactions, and ways of most if not all of us FWSs. I also bristle when you imply that those of us who don't do things as you think they should be done are talking heads or "yes" people following some misinformed, twisted, or unjustified script. (A script I've never seen but you refer to it quite a bit.)

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
In my opinion and experience, poor boundaries allow for the affair, but don't cause it, one reason I am a big beleiver in EP's as they ensure that regardless of what is going on in my life and in my heart, I won't be making that particular mistake again. I've had the same boundaries around men my whole adult life, but I wasn't vulnerable. I became vulnerable because of a confluence of events, and my poor boundaries put me in the position where another man was meeting my needs. Had I had better boundaries, I would not have been in that position.

I see what you're saying here and this makes sense to me. It wasn't the boundaries that caused your A, boundaries or the lack thereof influenced its allowance. I can relate to this statement.

And this is what I prefer. You relating to us by sharing your personal experience. Explaining how YOU feel and what YOU did and not lumping all of us FWSs or all of us on MA or all of us who post on forums or all BSs into the same group.

When you talk from your heart and share your individual feelings and experiences without adding comments that allude to judging how others may feel or how others handle things... I think the former is far more affecting.

For example:
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
From the standpoint of the faithful spouse, it may LOOK like the effort was successful: the no contact letter has been sent, all avenues of contact have been shut down, the polygraph has been demanded and secured, the unfaithful spouse has followed the remorse/repentance script -- check, check, check, win.
Some of us FWSs have done some of these things and yet there is a mocking tone in your post, as if you think taking select steps toward recovery is a game. I read sarcasm, similar to your comment I already brought your attention, about not being stupid enough to tell the truth to someone who might be in a position to harm you.

Your apparent digs and seeming attempts to get an ulterior message across get in the way of what might otherwise be a powerful message.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: L4
I wasn't told to say anything. And even if I was, I don't have to say it. No one can make me or anyone else do or say anything. I had an affair in very large part due to my poor boundaries. And I really believe that.

I was told to say exactly that and not elaborate. You are correct - no one made me, but I was trying to do the right thing.

Then say this. Share your experience.

Say, for example, "I was told by _____ that I had to say boundaries made me do it and so I did. I said boundaries made me do it because I thought it was the right thing to do even though I didn't believe that. My lack of boundaries helped set the stage, but I cheated because..." just like you wrote above.

When you instead write:
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
If you hear what we are told to say -- "the reason I had an affair is that I have poor boundaries around men/women," you may feel better, but you aren't getting good data as I SERIOUSLY doubt there are many unfaithful spouses who really believe that,"
...you're speaking for others. And unless you take a poll among a controlled group or you have proven data from a reputable source (cite it please), you don't have a basis to know what us unfaithful spouses as a whole were told nor what we as a whole really believe.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Look, I'm not saying that is a BAD thing to say or that it's not true - I'm saying that in my opinion it is an incomplete answer. The recipient isn't getting data which may be valuable depending upon the desired outcome.

But you pretty much did say its not true that unfaithful spouses dont really believe poor boundaries cause affairs. Yes, you did not come right out and state that, but in the context of your first-hand experience and credibility as a FWW, I believe saying you SERIOUSLY doubt others who have your similar experience are telling the truth infers very strongly that it is not true. Technically you didn't say this, but how it was presented appears to me like you wanted to make sure there was little wiggle room to think otherwise.

I agree with you that the statement, "Boundaries caused my affair," on its own may not provide all the data that may be useful for the BS. And I got that from the rest of your post after a few reads. It was a great point to make.

How you started that message, though, hinted you think those who did send an NC letter or who did/do show remorse or who do believe lack of boundaries had impact don't have minds of their own or their way is flawed or less or ridiculous... You didn't directly state any of these things but your use of sarcasm gives off the vibe of disapproval. A position that I think you want to get across without stating it directly. Of course, I could be wrong. (Which is why I'm not a big fan of sarcasm. I prefer people say what they want/mean/feel to allow fewer opportunities for misinterpretation.)

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My reasons were different from yours. My understanding of how it happened is different from yours. And that is OK because I am different from you and my life is different from yours.

Ding, ding, ding! EXACTLY! I also believe it's okay that we're different. (If it wasn't, what could we do?) And it -- us being different -- is why, when you position your personal experiences as generalities representing the rest of us, I get kinked.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I think the important thing is that we honestly evaluate our vulnerabilities and weaknesses and seek to shore up those areas.

I think the same.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
For example, I know I tend to give into my fear. I am working on facing my fear and speaking more honestly, which of course requires that I know what I think/feel which is a whole separate challenge. I may not be progressing at a speed that some find satisfactory, but I am progressing. It's tricky for me. It's easy for others. Others may find aspects of their relationship tricky that I find easy. We are all different.

Which is why I think it's best if people talk from their own experience and/or actual fact. You may not agree with that, but, for example, I think what you wrote right here is more powerful than the comments you made about what we're told to do or your observations on why BSs try to get their spouses back. To me, that whole paragraph on BSs trying to secure their flesh seemed added for reasons of making a statement against BSs and people on forums and especially the MB forum. I didn't understand how it related to AtTheEnd?'s questions.

FWIW, I think it's great you feel you're making progress. My experience in trying to work through my A and my M problems has been dodgy too so, even though our situations aren't the same, I can relate to the word "tricky". I hope you continue your forward movement and I hope you don't give further thoughts about the speed at which you're moving. Everyone has their own timeline for dealing with things. From what you've shared, you have people who need you. I believe those people and your own peace, which you deserve, are what are important.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The sin, to me, would be if we failed to grow from the experience.

Amen.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I apologize for offending you. We have differences in our lives which color how we interpret this statement.

Thank you for your apology, LdG. I appreciate it.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: L4
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh, often an achievable goal, the MB program as executed by the forum is in my view being the best vehicle to secure that very outcome. I've now seen it effectively used towards that end numerous times.


I have seen the opposite here on MA and on MB. I see BSs wanting to get their WSs back so they can improve their Ms. Who are these "most" that you refer too? Who are all these people who have compelled you to state that most BSs are motivated to get their spouses back "to secure the pound of flesh?

The recovered marriages I see on MA -- including those that I know used MB as one of if not their only guide -- were motivated to stay with their spouse and have a better M, not stay married just to punish their WS. And from what I see throughout this forum, this desire to have a better M is the rule, not the exception.


It is possible you and I could read the same posts and have diametrically opposed opinions on this point.

It's absolutely possible.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
It is also possible that you would not include on the list those who beat up on surrogate unfaithful spouses but claim to have recovered. I do include them.

I don't know if it's possible because I don't know what a surrogate unfaithful spouse is. Please define surrogate unfaithful spouse.

I have a couple of questions regarding this You wrote:
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh...
Are the people who claim to be recovered whom you believe beat up on surrogate unfaithful spouses the same people who are betrayed spouses who are on forums looking for help on how to get their WSs back? I made my original comment to that statement because it reads like you believe they are one in the same but I should make sure.

If the answer to the above is yes, is it their marriages that they claim are recovered or is it their own selves that are supposedly recovered? I think these are two different things that may or may not co-exist which is why Im asking.

Also, if those wanting to beat up on surrogate unfaithful spouses are the same as the betrayed spouses seeking help, please please please name the members here or link to a few of their posts because I most definitely want to share my thoughts with anyone who is here on MA trying to recover their M for the purposes of punishing their unfaithful spouse.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
This was the main point I was trying to make in response to the "surviving initial contact with the enemy" metaphor, that while the end of the affair might look good on paper from the standpoint of the faithful spouse, the unfaithful spouse has to finish the process. The timing may be unfortunate in that those weeks following the official end may coincide with unpleasant happenings in the marriage, making it harder to stick with NC. At least that was my experience.

I think it's a very good point.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The phrase "snapping out of it" implies to me an event, and I think some may experience it as a process. Being alert to that possibility may be helpful.

Another good point. I snapped out of having contact with the FOM. It was an event and the A in physical form ended immediately. In emotional and psychological form, it continued for a while.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I am well aware of what I am supposed to think, and maybe someday I will.

How do you feel about sharing what you're supposed to think and why you're supposed to think it?

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I post them because if it helps someone like futureunknown understand his wife a little better, he may find healing in that understanding and avoid certain pitfalls in the future - like my bet is he will keep a close eye on the "hope" ball - or it helps someone understand that their wandering spouse may need assurance that returning to the marriage isn't emotional suicide, then it is worth being spoken to the way I am spoken to and reading the things I read about myself.

I dont know how you view how youre spoken to (good or bad?) or if you think youre being spoken to by everyone here the same way. Evidence throughout this site shows me you have dozens who follow you and who appreciate your words so I hope you're getting something positive from being here, just as you hope you're giving.

My intent for this long post is to help you see how I (and I'm only speaking for myself) sometimes interpret your posts. Your tendency to make blanket statements representing groups to which I belong can offend me and your periphery sarcasm distracts me from what might otherwise be the purpose of your message.

I recognize you may not give a rat's pahoony how I interpret your writings, but I thought I might give context for why I comment when I do.

I believe very strongly in people being held accountable for their words. And written words I especially pay attention to because they can last a lifetime.

I understand written words can be misinterpreted since they don't include the body language or inflection that can otherwise define them. Which is why, if I'm unsure of something I read, I try to ask before I assume what someone means.

I also believe people can change and change their mind.

Finally, I believe correction, know people make mistakes. (If they repeat them, however, I believe they are not mistakes but beliefs or problems.) I make mistakes and if I misrepresent an individual or a group as a whole, I hope people will point it out to me. If I misunderstand someone, my wish is they'll correct me. If I hurt a person, I want them to let me know how.

Thanks for reading this, LdG, and thank you, AtTheEnd?, for allowing this conversation to take place.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157568
09/15/11 04:17 PM
09/15/11 04:17 PM
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Thank you L4 for clearly articulating your perspective, one which I share.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #157653
09/15/11 07:18 PM
09/15/11 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: 20yrshurt&r
Bad analogy on my part coach. Dealing with emotions and people are definitely not the same as an enemy that can be predicted to a degree and rock solid contingency plans laid down.


FWIW, I thought it was a really good analogy, although I have no military experience.

I heard you saying that the initial efforts to end the affair won't be successful. And they won't. I'll go out on a limb and say they won't 100 percent of the time. Boundary or ultimatum, it makes no difference.

From the standpoint of the faithful spouse, it may LOOK like the effort was successful: the no contact letter has been sent, all avenues of contact have been shut down, the polygraph has been demanded and secured, the unfaithful spouse has followed the remorse/repentance script -- check, check, check, win.

But unless you are doing SOMETHING to make your unfaithful spouse think things might be different, SOMETHING to make yourself a not actively hideous person to be around, which I consider a fairly low standard, SOMETHING that suggests you aren't going to maximize the leverage the affair gave you, I can ASSURE you, whether your spouse is male or female, that affair rages on in their hidden world.

I routinely fled to the memory of the Guy, a man who was nice to me, for a very long time, until the memory got too thin to grab.


I was nearly certain of this in my W's case, which is why I was so hesitant to put my heart back on the line, and why I believe it's so important for the unfaithful spouse to take every opportunity to show the faithful spouse that they are remaining in the marriage by choice, and that they choose their spouse over the affair partner. I'm not talking about overt declarations, but rather every day things, and positive little comments. If the unfaithful spouse is incapable of or not willing to offer that, the marriage is doomed, IMO.

Simply not being hideous is not enough of a requirement on the faithful spouse though. Just because they were cheated on doesn't take away their obligation to be a fun, warm, charming, and flattering partner. Once I agreed to try to reconcile, my W and I talked and laughed all the time, there was never a harsh word between us, we seemed genuinely happy to see each other, we did fun things with the kids, and we went on fun dates, but that still didn't remove the ghost of her OM from her mind, which eventually caused me to throw in the towel. If she wanted him so bad, fine, she could have him.

Quote:

I now flee elsewhere, but I still flee from my husband. Although I like to think I am unique, I doubt it.


That is very sad. Why do you flee from him?


Quote:

A percentage of faithful spouses who believe the affair is "over" might be surprised at what their unfaithful spouse is, in fact, thinking.

A percentage of unfaithful spouses fall right into line with the faithful spouse calling the shots and it looks really good, and it may stay good looking.

A percentage of faithful spouses truly understand their role in the affair and are willing to table their need to be Right and do what it takes to heal the marriage.


I tried. I did a tremendous amount of reflection, and I owned my failure in the marriage. I felt no great need to be right, but I did need her to own that her behavior during her affair was selfish and cruel to me and the kids. She instead chose to continually defend the affair and her OM, saying how much they loved each other, and blamed me for making her feel unloved. What could I possibly say to that?

Quote:

The thing is, you can never know which category you are in unless your spouse trusts you enough to share with you. If you hear what we are told to say -- "the reason I had an affair is that I have poor boundaries around men/women," you may feel better, but you aren't getting good data as I SERIOUSLY doubt there are many unfaithful spouses who really believe that. I certainly don't. I believe my husband's treatment of me was a direct causative agent to me having an affair.

There are those of us who are not stupid enough to be honest with someone who is in a position to cause us major harm.

My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh, often an achievable goal, the MB program as executed by the forum is in my view being the best vehicle to secure that very outcome. I've now seen it effectively used towards that end numerous times.


My W would try to share with me, but I didn't know what she wanted back from me. Did she want to me to say I was glad she felt loved by OM? Did she want to me say I forgive her? I tried to walk a line of giving her the room to hold onto the good things from her affair, but yet still needing her to own her behavior.

Although I certainly had a good amount of anger inside me, I was also hopeful. I chose to put my energies into the hope, but when my W continually chose to bash the hope, and espouse how much she DIDN'T regret her affair, eventually my anger won out, and we did have one argument when I couldn't hold back my desire to secure a pound of flesh. I said a few things I know hurt her, and I regretted it. She seemed to want to get that out of me, to validate her suspicion of my true motivation. We've never really talked since that argument, almost one year ago.

Quote:

I suggest deciding what outcome you want in "snapping them out of it" and conforming your conduct accordingly. Consider being honest with yourself about what you are really seeking, recognizing the distinct possibility that your spouse may not trust you enough to be honest with you, now or ever.


I don't think my W does trust me enough to be honest with me, and probably never will. After a decade of her accusing me of imagined malicious thoughts and intentions toward her, I can't see any chance of her ever giving up her belief that deep down I want to hurt her for what she did to me.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Danf] #157657
09/15/11 07:24 PM
09/15/11 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: Danf
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
as would be seeing the devastation of the BS and family. Another dose of reality.


I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

I'm not sure it is healthy for me or other BS's to really even think about this until it actually happens. I think it causes us to continue to be stuck in limbo, when the majority of us probably shouldn't have any hope.

Dan, you're right in that your WW was already gone by the time you found out about the A and she saw your devastation. Nothin' wrong with the WS seeing that, it's real hurt.

If her mindset ever changes, she will live with that memory of you. The wayward mindset is too busy thinking of themselves/blaming their spouse. I saw this with my H. Real hurt is human, I don't view it as weak or something to be ashamed of at all. I think there is more damage in denying the hurt. It may never go away but it does fade so that it doesn't consume your waking hours.

My statement above was made by me remembering the impact that our kids had on my then WH. They grilled him hard as did a very good friend of mine. We were in limbo cuz he refused to step up and spill the truth. Once the truth was out, another dose of reality, recovery wasn't easy but at least then it was genuine.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157658
09/15/11 07:25 PM
09/15/11 07:25 PM
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serendipitous Offline
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Wonderful post L4

claps claps claps


The sun never says to the earth "you owe me"
Look what happens with a love like that.
It lights up the whole sky.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Vittoria] #157673
09/15/11 08:01 PM
09/15/11 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: serendipitous] #157677
09/15/11 08:09 PM
09/15/11 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: future
I can't see any chance of her ever giving up her belief that deep down I want to hurt her for what she did to me.


I wonder what it would cost her to give up that belief -- why she clings to it.

I'll admit It is a tempting thing to believe -- makes it easy if that's the case.

This is a stumbling block on which I often stumble that I don't see discussed much. Sometimes when I feel myself letting my guard down a hair with him, I remind myself that he wants to hurt me for what I did. I'm not saying that is true, but it is a tape I play.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157678
09/15/11 08:11 PM
09/15/11 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


Ditto what L4 said, I had no idea he loved me...not really.
I didnt think he wanted me at all really. i wasnt young anymore or thin...and all the woman he looked at were young and thin so he must not have wanted me...

I didnt know how much I mattered to him until that horrible moment...the irony being that I ceased to matter to him as much because he withdrew to protect himself.

So in doing what I did I learned that he wanted me...but by doing what I did...he stopped wanting me.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157679
09/15/11 08:18 PM
09/15/11 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


I know your husbands pain and wish that I had a woman that was willing to stand up when needed.

You are a good woman L4.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: serendipitous] #157681
09/15/11 08:20 PM
09/15/11 08:20 PM
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The points that I had wanted to comment on were from LdG and I can sum up my thoughts with this paragraph ....
Originally Posted By: L4
My intent for this long post is to help you see how I (and I'm only speaking for myself) sometimes interpret your posts. Your tendency to make blanket statements representing groups to which I belong can offend me and your periphery sarcasm distracts me from what might otherwise be the purpose of your message.

The blanket statements about FWS's and mockery over BS's are hurtful and I know that they both distract me too.
L4, thank you for putting so much thought into that post!
ST, agree with your definition earlier and medc's additions to it.

Back to the thread topic .... calling someone on their thinking that is harmful to recovery or will prevent any recovery from happening is in the best interest of the M, which is what this forum is about. Like what has been mentioned a few times, once by me earlier in this thread, the 'snapping out of it' is like a slow 360 of a big ship rather than a 'snap'. Ignoring harmful thinking does nothing to help turn that ship, it causes setbacks in the M. Our M coach was good at calling out that thinking, I'm grateful for that.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #157683
09/15/11 08:23 PM
09/15/11 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Sometimes when I feel myself letting my guard down a hair with him, I remind myself that he wants to hurt me for what I did. I'm not saying that is true, but it is a tape I play.


Sounds like two hurting people who have lizards that are freaked out still. Somebody needs to change the tapes you all are playing. scratch

What's that quote by Ghandi I like? "You must be the _____________ you wish to see in the world."

Cheers


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Misty] #157687
09/15/11 08:29 PM
09/15/11 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Misty
Originally Posted By: Amadahy
Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
That is horrible, how are you emotionally now?

tink


i am okay.
When one is dealing with the guilt of cheating it is hard.
When one has to compound that with the knowledge that their cheating, their betrayal, what THEY did directly resulted in their rape.

Rape is normally something outside of a womans control.

Mine was a result of my infidelity...so lets load about another truck load of "what a crappy person am I" and spread it around my self esteem garden.

That being said...i own my mistakes and I am working towards being a strong person who does not allow men to manipulate her or use her...any man...ever.


NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Stop it. Rape is ALWAYS something outside of a woman's control.

You did not cause the rape by your infidelity. I am so tired of hearing you say that when it is am absolute LIE. You made a mistake by putting yourself in a dangerous position but the rapists are 100% responsible for the rape.

Even if a woman were to walk naked down a dark alley, she would not be responsible for being raped. She is only guilty of doing something stupid and not taking care of herself.

I was thinking the same thing, Misty.
Hugs to you Ama.

At the End .... I didn't know your story until I read what you wrote here. I'm sorry that you weren't able to recover your M. You sound like a caring person who would have gave recovery his best shot. Your WW is a fool to have given up that gift.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #157706
09/15/11 09:22 PM
09/15/11 09:22 PM
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Squeaky Tree Offline
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Originally Posted By: Amadahy
Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


Ditto what L4 said, I had no idea he loved me...not really.
I didnt think he wanted me at all really. i wasnt young anymore or thin...and all the woman he looked at were young and thin so he must not have wanted me...

I didnt know how much I mattered to him until that horrible moment...the irony being that I ceased to matter to him as much because he withdrew to protect himself.

So in doing what I did I learned that he wanted me...but by doing what I did...he stopped wanting me.


I wanted to see that with my H. I wanted to see that it really hurt him, I wanted him to curl up in a corner and beg me to stay with him, I wanted to see that he loved me. I didn't get any of that.

He cried through the vows on our wedding day.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Squeaky Tree] #157710
09/15/11 09:57 PM
09/15/11 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: ST
I wanted to see that with my H. I wanted to see that it really hurt him, I wanted him to curl up in a corner and beg me to stay with him, I wanted to see that he loved me. I didn't get any of that.

Understandable how we base our worth to someone based on their reactions or lack of. I might feel the same way, IDK.
They can be accurate or completely off the wall, our interpretation I mean.

ST, have you ever told H what you wrote above?


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Squeaky Tree] #157714
09/15/11 10:05 PM
09/15/11 10:05 PM
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Quote:
I wanted to see that with my H. I wanted to see that it really hurt him, I wanted him to curl up in a corner and beg me to stay with him, I wanted to see that he loved me. I didn't get any of that.


I understand where you are coming from but I would NEVER want to be responsible for causing that much hurt and pain in another person. I would have a hard time forgiving myself if I put a loved one through that kind of hurt.

While I am certain that you would like to KNOW that someone cares that much, I think you should be thankful to have never witnessed by L4.

Just my opinion.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #157718
09/15/11 10:17 PM
09/15/11 10:17 PM
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I agree Medc. Remember, we've experienced it and are fully aware of just how crippling that hurt is. Not having had to experience it first hand, I could only imagine how awful it would be to discover an A, the imagination can never do that type of pain justice. Much like we can't ever know the pain of guilt for inflicting such hurt.

I see ST's point like you and I see her view of how no/little reaction can be seen as no/little care.

Last edited by Vittoria; 09/15/11 10:18 PM. Reason: clarity

26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #157795
09/16/11 01:49 AM
09/16/11 01:49 AM
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An excellent thread.

My ex was a WAW, not a WS.

Nothing, no amount of counseling (individual, marriage, or spiritual), or reading or soul-searching or analyzing or forums made ANY sense or explained the abrupt and total disappearance of my Dear Friend and instantaneous replacement by The Alien until I read the following by Snodderly on "that other site."

Given my ex-wife's abusive childhood and the recent (at the time of The Bomb) death of her father, this post by Snodderly (and other posts of hers) helped me begin to make some sense of it all...

I list it below in case it rings true for others who may never have read it.


"I thought it would be nice to start a thread on exactly what my thoughts are on why the spouse tends to run away during their crisis. I have done a lot of reading and listening to my friend about his thoughts and feelings during his crisis. So here goes.

Generally the man/woman in crisis has had a terrible childhood. Their childhoods consisted of parents that fought, drank, did drugs, physically and mentally abused their children, emotionally distanced themselves from their children, but most of all abandoned their children. The more I read about the various "learned" personality traits, the more I'm convinced that as children they were mentally abused to the point of not believing in themselves at all. They felt dirty, unwanted, stupid, worthless, their self esteem was shot to hell. The parents had these children, but really didn't love them unconditionally. Most of the "crisis" children have ADHD, ADD, PA, BPD traits. They suffer from bouts of depression, are very good at lying, picking fights, defensive, and tend to self-medicate with alcohol, drugs, sex and spending. As I've listened to my friend, I've come to realize that even though "crisis" children appear normal on the outside, they have a constant internal war going on inside of themselves. They have been damaged beyond repair at that young age and it will take many years for them to even feel safe w/another person, if then. They feel very threatened by anyone that comes near them emotionally and physically. They can't handle it because they fear that this person will hurt them or take away whatever it is that they hold near and dear in their lives. As the "crisis" child grows up, he/she tends to be a loner, stays to him/herself and doesn't trust anyone to enter their safety zone. They tend to not show their emotions except in bouts of anger and are very guarded about their thoughts and feelings. They tend to distance themselves from others. I call this the dance, because when a person gets close to the "crisis" individual, he/she will distance enough to not feel threatened. You the spouse will never know the real person that lives within the "crisis" person until the two personalities are merged into one. The person you know is actually the shell of a person and he/she is very good at masking what he/she is really thinking at all times. However, during the major growing times, i.e., 20's, 30, and 40's (mid-life especially), the "crisis" person has another problem. It's at this time that the "crisis" child is starting to raise its ugly head, becomes stronger and wants to voice it's opinions on how that person was mistreated as a child. It's at this time, that the splintering/splitting occurs. This where the crisis child is doing internal battle with the crisis adult. The battle is a 24/7 emotional roller coaster for the adult. The pain, hurt and anger are there 24/7 w/o any relief. I've sat and listened to my friend speak of many things that happened in his childhood and to hear the hurt and anguish in his voice makes me want to cry for him. It is at this time when the emotional pain becomes so great that the adult can't handle any other stress in his/her life. This person doesn't trust the spouse enough to speak about the turmoil inside. They feel that the spouse will not accept them for who they are right at this moment. Why? Because that person has now entered mlc and will be there for a while. That person knows that something is terribly wrong and knows that he/she must leave in order to heal those long ago hurts. If you recall, as children, when we were scared or punished, we all wanted to run away. Remember those times? Well, this is what is happening to your mlcer. They are very scared and very hurt and they only thing that they know how to do is run, as the "crisis" child comes on the scene. The best thing that this person can do for himself/herself is to go see their parents, sit down and actually talk to their parents about how they perceived their childhood and tell the parents just how hurt and angry they are for how they were mistreated. If they don't do this, it will take longer for them to heal.

As spouses and friends of the mlcers, we must always keep in mind that they are in a very fragile state when the "crisis" child gains control. They are so confused and hurt. The anger is not at you, but at what life has dished out to them. It's the hurt coming out and it's really a delayed reaction to how they were mistreated as children. We have to remember to treat them kindly and with compassion during this time. Why? Because this could have happened to you. During the "crisis" child stage, you will be viewed as the mother/father authority figure, therefore you are the one that gets the brunt of what is happening. They are afraid to speak to their parents for fear of what the parents will do to them. Who better than us to get the emotional flack? They know we love them, they just don't know how to deal with the emotional pain that goes so very deep. Folks, I've had many long conversations w/my friend and I can tell you, he is suffering terribly from his "crisis" childhood. Until he resolves his issues and speaks to his father, he will continue to run and never heal.

I hope that this will help some of you better understand what is happening. I'd welcome all of your comments. As time goes by, I'll post more of my thoughts and observations. Mlc is not a pretty sight by any means, especially if the mlcer is willing to sit down and speak to you about how he/she is feeling. That's why it is so very important to be a friend during the crisis. You will learn so much more about what is going on. Keep the expectations to zero and I feel very strongly that your spouses "crisis" child will speak to you. Listen carefully, sift through the garbage coming out of their mouths and the answers are all there. It's not about you, but about them and how they were mistreated as children.

Take care."


Peace,
Gardener

"My soul, be satisfied with flowers, with fruit, with weeds even;
but gather them in the one garden you may call your own."
Cyrano deBergerac
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Gardener] #157820
09/16/11 02:36 AM
09/16/11 02:36 AM
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My mlc WH his parents are deceased now. He has run to another W. I don't see any healing that will be happening for our marriage or family.

His childhood fits the description of most of what you mentioned, the funny thing so does mine, so I get the added bonus of being abused as a child and now deserted in a marriage.

I choose to stay when it got hard, he choose to run.

Last edited by tinkerbell; 09/16/11 02:45 AM.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #157828
09/16/11 02:54 AM
09/16/11 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I choose to stay when it got hard, he choose to run.
and that's the hardest part to reconcile, to accept. While there was no "when it got hard" in my situation, just a total "out of the blue," the running away, far and fast with no explanation ever given devastated me for the better part of three years.


Peace,
Gardener

"My soul, be satisfied with flowers, with fruit, with weeds even;
but gather them in the one garden you may call your own."
Cyrano deBergerac
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Gardener] #157858
09/16/11 04:29 AM
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Well, in things that got hard his alcoholism, as for when this when it happened, it was out of the blue, I was floored esp since I choose to stay.

I have not been given an explanation, have you gotten one yet?

I really do think what you put about it is a shell they aren't showing you all of who they are, or how you worded it. You have really delved into this, thinking about it. Thanks for posting it all, it helps.

Last edited by tinkerbell; 09/16/11 04:31 AM.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Vittoria] #157872
09/16/11 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I agree Medc. Remember, we've experienced it and are fully aware of just how crippling that hurt is. Not having had to experience it first hand, I could only imagine how awful it would be to discover an A, the imagination can never do that type of pain justice. Much like we can't ever know the pain of guilt for inflicting such hurt.

I see ST's point like you and I see her view of how no/little reaction can be seen as no/little care.


Thank you MEDC and Vitt, for understanding where I was coming from. You are correct, I know I wouldn't really want to be witness to that or to know that I had caused it.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Squeaky Tree] #157975
09/16/11 04:32 PM
09/16/11 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: staytogether
Thank you MEDC and Vitt, for understanding where I was coming from. You are correct, I know I wouldn't really want to be witness to that or to know that I had caused it.

As much as I'm told not to hitch my emotional well-being to someone else's horse, it still can hurt when I think someone I care about may not feel the same about me. I also think I understand where you were coming from.

(((((((ST)))))))


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157987
09/16/11 05:08 PM
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AtTheEnd? Offline OP
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Vitt,

Thank you for your kind words. It really brightened my day.

-ATE

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #158021
09/16/11 08:06 PM
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FWIW, AtTheEnd?, I think you just might win the prize this month for having the most multi-conversational-t/jed thread on MA. smile

I hope you enjoy your weekend.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #158146
09/17/11 01:17 AM
09/17/11 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I have not been given an explanation, have you gotten one yet?
One week after The Bomb she cited:
- her asking to leave my family reunion and by the time I finished my goodbyes, it was 45 minutes later (this was 7 years pre-bomb)
- my trying to get her to skinny-dip during a very secluded vacation moment (this was 5 years pre-bomb)
- a discussion (not argument) that we had re: sex (this was 15 years pre-bomb)
- I was "too helpful."
- my getting aroused when we would go to sleep spooning. Her IC told her this was "sexual abuse."

I kid you not.

Total, alien, scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel for ANY reason. She had just read Eat, Pray, Love: "I don't want to be married anymore."

I will never know the truth.
I no longer care.
Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I really do think what you put about it is a shell they aren't showing you all of who they are, or how you worded it. You have really delved into this, thinking about it. Thanks for posting it all, it helps.
I wasn't clear, here. The long quoted passage was from a posting by a wise DB poster by the screen name of Snodderly.


Peace,
Gardener

"My soul, be satisfied with flowers, with fruit, with weeds even;
but gather them in the one garden you may call your own."
Cyrano deBergerac
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Gardener] #158154
09/17/11 01:28 AM
09/17/11 01:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Not sure why this thread is so hard to read tonight.

Thanks to....several things, I no longer carry the weight of the A, though it will always be a great regret. But sometimes I wonder why it took so long for me to see it clearly.....I wasn't stupid. I'm not foraging around for past pain here, but I think sometimes....we repeat patterns in thinking even if the actions we repeat are not the same.

L4's post hit me..

Quote:
As much as I'm told not to hitch my emotional well-being to someone else's horse, it still can hurt when I think someone I care about may not feel the same about me.


Now understand very very clearly that my A was absolutely and fully my responsibility. There is no excuse. But what she just stated.....I felt that so acutely for so many years before....and eventually for several years after.

This time around I knew what a dangerous place that was to be....and I also knew what would and would not ever change.

I started this post with a point, but I lost it.....I blame the fever smile I will say that no matter what pain I was in personally, I wish I could undo the pain I caused with the A. Not wallowing, just a fact.

I have been thinking a lot about how important our way of thinking is.....vulnerability led to some pretty rotten choices back in 2006. The key for me - in part - is how to choose my thinking when I am vulnerable.


Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Gardener] #158155
09/17/11 01:29 AM
09/17/11 01:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
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for to fade Offline
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for to fade  Offline
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I got something like a list, a complaint about a phone bill 22 years ago, true

Last edited by tinkerbell; 09/17/11 01:33 AM.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: herfuturesbright] #158156
09/17/11 01:32 AM
09/17/11 01:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
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for to fade Offline
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Maybe because it is friday nite

Are you ok?

tink

Last edited by tinkerbell; 09/17/11 01:34 AM.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #158158
09/17/11 01:36 AM
09/17/11 01:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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herfuturesbright  Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Eh....I will prevail. smile

Ready to start work - too much time on my hands

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #445748
06/16/21 01:51 AM
06/16/21 01:51 AM
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New Zealand
Lil Offline

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New Zealand
Originally Posted by AtTheEnd?
This subject came up in another thread and felt it deserved it's own. What brings the WS/WAS out of their "fog"? How long does it take? What is the next step for the WS? How do they feel? Where is the BS at this point? How often does this snapping out of it happen (possibly never)? Once they our out of it, do they want to return, or do they just move onto another relationship?

Feel free to add more and expand on this subject.

-AtTheEnd?


Time for a revisit I guess smile


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


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