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Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #153636
09/03/11 08:54 PM
09/03/11 08:54 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
How very discouraging. I severed the relationships I had with my very few friends under the MB "if they knew about the affair they have go" rule so I got nothin', nor do I have any realistic idea how to fix that.
As I was a learnin', I ended up almost completely changing my friends. Lots of my old friends became just acquaintances. Over time I got a whole pile of much more "tolerant" new friends. It twas quite a process and painful along the way.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Probably shouldn't be posting tonight - it was a stressful day, I am in severe pain and inexplicably codeine-less, and I'm tired and lonely. Sorry.
You are always welcome - codeine or not.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #153640
09/03/11 09:14 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
In fairness to Harley,.....I had no ... screw it. The current reality is that I have no support system whatsoever....It is impossible to describe how trapped I am.


Beyond all your pain and a whole pile of mastertalk, I was thinking of your words. Reminded me of two pictures. The first is about what it may feel like. And the second is more about what it is. Enjoy.







Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153642
09/03/11 09:24 PM
09/03/11 09:24 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I've been avoiding her neighbourhood for sometime and I think I'm going to have to address this issue fairly soon. I would like to find a way of explaining my discomfort, setting a boundary for myself, not coming off as too defensive and still leaving myself available to be 'the better option'.
In explaining yourself to others sometimes you have to teach them a bit about humans and how humans work. The Lizard is a pretty useful concept in doing this, I've found.

"Something inside me, part of myself I've learned to call my Lizard, freaks when I go into your neighborhood. I don't understand my Lizard's sense yet, but I was concerned you would note that I act odd around you or around that area and would wonder." She may ask about this Lizard thingy and you can always say a little or drop one of my papers on her. "I'm just learning. I know you aren't causing this. It's my stuff, but I thought it might help you to understand my actions. I sure am interested in trust and safety for you and me."

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I'm thinking of just telling her my Lizard feels uncomfortable in her neighbourhood, that looking after him is a priority for me, I'd prefer not to go to her new place and I hope she understands.
She will someday.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #153648
09/03/11 10:40 PM
09/03/11 10:40 PM
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I shared the Lizard concept and some of your papers with my wife last winter, AL. I believe she liked the Lizard concept though I had the sense she was very stand-offish about the whole area because I think she thought it all sounded too encouraging of reconciliation.

Knowing what she does, I expect she will interpret any communication about my freaked out Lizard as distress from my inability to control her and proof nothing has changed with me. Maybe she'd be right. I don't know. I'm tired right now and as much as I try to prevalidate her my anger is inviting me to disrespect her choices and protect myself from more pain.

Not sure what I want anymore.

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153659
09/04/11 12:44 AM
09/04/11 12:44 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I shared the Lizard concept and some of your papers with my wife last winter, AL. I believe she liked the Lizard concept though I had the sense she was very stand-offish about the whole area because I think she thought it all sounded too encouraging of reconciliation.
Or to get her to go back to "being controlled some more". Hmmm

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Knowing what she does, I expect she will interpret any communication about my freaked out Lizard as distress from my inability to control her and proof nothing has changed with me. Maybe she'd be right. I don't know. I'm tired right now and as much as I try to prevalidate her my anger is inviting me to disrespect her choices and protect myself from more pain.
I love this. A woman after my own heart! Doesn't sound like she is so much troubled by the Lizard issues as she is about your lack of "knowing what she truly desires."

Perhaps it's time for one of my favorite stories. I first heard it told by Robert Bly. The story is really old, perhaps 1500 years. It's a King Arthur story and is told in many ways. I like my way the best, but tis much too long to write it here. The most common title is "Sir Gawain and Lady/Dame Ragnelle".

The core issue is the question posed by a threatening Knight to King Arthur and Sir Gawain. They have a year to try to answer it. If they find the right answer, they live. If not, they die. The question is "What is it that women truly desire?" or "What is it that every woman desires most?"

I've told this story so many times to me, with joy in my heart. I needed to know the answer, as probably do all men. ( Here's wikipedia on the subject.) Don't know what version of the story you can find is right for you. The answer in all versions should be the same.

You may get a kick when you find this venerable story was the comedy basis for the movie, Shrek.

Enjoy, Edmond.

P.S. Ok, ok. Men truly want the same thing. smile

Last edited by AlTurtle; 09/04/11 04:35 AM. Reason: Added a PS

Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #153824
09/05/11 02:13 AM
09/05/11 02:13 AM
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Ontario, Canada
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Thanks, Al. I'm grateful for the timing of your message.

I was familar with a version of the story to which you referred but, like Shrek, the version I knew focused on Gawain. What struck me when I looked at your link was Gawain's selfless love for Arthur. I saw his 'sacrifice' as an expression of love for the kingly archtype.

After I looked at the story I could see my perspective on my wife and her hardships was coloured by righteous selfishness and not coming from love.

So easy to get off track. Sigh.

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153865
09/05/11 04:35 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Wow. How those stories have a lot in them!

I recall being told that in the first part of Jack and the Beanstalk, in the original, that person on the road that talked Jack into trading the cow for beans was originally a "wise man" or a "shaman", but was changed in the telling. But that over the years the whole point of being disobedient to the mother infused the story with the idea that the beans came from a fraud who fooled the boy - when the story clearly proves the beans were magic, the gift of a holy man.

Anyway I love my version of Dame Ragnelle where the Sir Gawain's give of "sovereignty" to her frees her from the evil spell. King Arthur and Sir Gawain giving a woman/women sovereignty in that long ago! I think that gift to my wife was and is very wise. I encourage you to consider how to make that gift, too.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #153874
09/05/11 06:15 AM
09/05/11 06:15 AM
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So Al the giving of sovereignty is about detaching from them and letting them go to follow their own path?

For me it's also been about not expecting any improvement in the relationship. I think it has got to a point after 6 months seperation, that this aint going to reconcile.


Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #153881
09/05/11 06:44 AM
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Yes, Sovereignty. I see that. That's why I described this situation as a Pre-Validation challenge for me.

I accept my wife's sovereign choices make sense. Somehow, someway. I'm struggling to see it.

The thing that strikes most people immediately about my wife is her elegance. She has an air of graciousness about her that is quite remarkable. Since she left me she has adopted a new support system. They consist primarily of three man-hating, bitter divorcees (one of whom ranted to my oldest daughter about her alcoholic ex-husband and how she was 'on your mother's side') all of whom live 'independently' on spousal support and her boyfriend who cleans up after street people in a detox center and moonlights as a singer-songwriter when his mental illness allows him to do anything at all. What these people all seem to have in common ,besides mental instability (three of the four are bi-polar), are a fierce loyalty to my wife and unflinching support for anything she says or does.

I know they all must have more going for them if my wife has befriended them, I just have no idea what those things might be. All of their lives are in turmoil from what I can see.

Since she left 18 months ago and quit her job, ostensibly to express her independence (that's what our daughters were told), she has lived exclusively on the substantial financial support I provide her and has occupied herself with volunteering, drawing, painting, photography and smoking and drinking daquiris. My kids don't get it either.

She has become a kind of priviledged queen among 'losers'. I know she's in pain. I believe she's looking for a new identity among people who will accept her without reservation. I accept it is not wise, healthy or loving to come from such a judgmental place when it comes to her friends and life choices, particularly when this kind of judgementalism has been such a handicap for me in the past. This is all so extreme though that I am struggling to penetrate it. Talk about jumping in the deep end.

That's why I was so struck by Gawain's unhesitating ' yes, of course, I'll marry the hag for you'. I understand that's not the central theme of the story but it sure spoke to me in the moment.

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153883
09/05/11 07:35 AM
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Perhaps the Toxic Trio validate your wife in her decisions to drink, smoke, paint, divorce etc. I know my wife has only spoken to her friends including the OM, who were pro divorce - looking for the validation as to her decision to leave. Probably your wife Edmund wanted similar re inforcement. I find it insulting that people you dont even know weigh in and influence your marriage like that. But what to do, can't stop them doing that ( the sovereignty ).I know how you feel about all of this - me too. Trying to learn the new skills,but it doesnt seem to get better.

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153908
09/05/11 02:36 PM
09/05/11 02:36 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
After I looked at the story I could see my perspective on my wife and her hardships was coloured by righteous selfishness and not coming from love.
Yup. Part of the beauty of the story was that this was a lesson for a King and his friend. Kings can easily get lost is righteous selfishness. Tis a reminder.

I once heard of a tribe in Africa where the kingship was inherited from father to son. To make sure the kid did not fall into righteous self-centeredness, the tribe would in ceremony break his leg and then set it poorly, so that he would always limp and be never able to forget that he was just a simple person. Hard lesson.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Manup] #153909
09/05/11 02:44 PM
09/05/11 02:44 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Manup
So Al the giving of sovereignty is about detaching from them and letting them go to follow their own path?
I don't see it that way. If you read the story, they lived happily ever after together, once sovereignty was established. Yes a "letting go" and a "letting them follow their path" but not a leaving.

Originally Posted By: Manup
For me it's also been about not expecting any improvement in the relationship. I think it has got to a point after 6 months separation, that this aint going to reconcile.
I hear your disappointment. Learning can be awful painful and slow. I am just wondering. Does she have more sovereignty with you away? Even as sucky as this is, can you consider this to be an improvement in the kind of relationship you had with her?

Is it possible that giving her sovereignty while she is with you would be an even bigger improvement in the relationship?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153915
09/05/11 03:30 PM
09/05/11 03:30 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Yes, Sovereignty. I see that. That's why I described this situation as a Pre-Validation challenge for me. I accept my wife's sovereign choices make sense. Somehow, someway. I'm struggling to see it.
Yep. Maybe we've narrowed down the growth point to a clear issue. Could be you have trouble with the process of Validation and PreValidation. I certainly did until my break-thru. Once I saw the problem I carried, I could not imagine going back to my previous understanding of people. And at core, it had to do with sovereignty. Wow. Study on.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
The thing that strikes most people immediately about my wife is her elegance. She has an air of graciousness about her that is quite remarkable.
Hmmm. Wonder what is going on, there.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Since she left me she has adopted a new support system. They consist primarily of three man-hating, bitter divorcees (one of whom ranted to my oldest daughter about her alcoholic ex-husband and how she was 'on your mother's side') all of whom live 'independently' on spousal support and her boyfriend who cleans up after street people in a detox center and moonlights as a singer-songwriter when his mental illness allows him to do anything at all. What these people all seem to have in common ,besides mental instability (three of the four are bi-polar), are a fierce loyalty to my wife and unflinching support for anything she says or does.
I love the "man-haters."

I think it was one of the phenomena of the 1990s that "when women get together they talk about hatred of men and men's failings." When men got together (seriously), they didn't bash women. They contemplated how messy the world and their relationships had become. To me it seemed that men often took a kind of responsibility for the mess in the world, while women still reminded men that women were not responsible. Of course this is a wild generalization. And I think this has changed a lot since the 1990s.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I know they all must have more going for them if my wife has befriended them, I just have no idea what those things might be. All of their lives are in turmoil from what I can see.
I love the judgementalness explicit in your line. From a PreValidational and Sovereignty point of view, these are struggling valuable humans who you may not like.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Since she left 18 months ago and quit her job, ostensibly to express her independence (that's what our daughters were told), she has lived exclusively on the substantial financial support I provide her and has occupied herself with volunteering, drawing, painting, photography and smoking and drinking daquiris. My kids don't get it either.
Sounds as if her growth is just started. What the heck is this about her living on your financial support!? You enabling her, perhaps?

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
She has become a kind of priviledged queen among 'losers'. I know she's in pain. I believe she's looking for a new identity among people who will accept her without reservation. I accept it is not wise, healthy or loving to come from such a judgmental place when it comes to her friends and life choices, particularly when this kind of judgementalism has been such a handicap for me in the past. This is all so extreme though that I am struggling to penetrate it. Talk about jumping in the deep end.
Are you helping this confusion exist for her? Sounds as if you gave her only partial sovereignty.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
That's why I was so struck by Gawain's unhesitating ' yes, of course, I'll marry the hag for you'. I understand that's not the central theme of the story but it sure spoke to me in the moment.
Yup. I can see it.

Oh, well. There's more to the story.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Manup] #153919
09/05/11 03:41 PM
09/05/11 03:41 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Manup
Perhaps the Toxic Trio validate your wife in her decisions to drink, smoke, paint, divorce etc. I know my wife has only spoken to her friends including the OM, who were pro divorce - looking for the validation as to her decision to leave.
Perhaps. But I encourage you to PreValidate the process your partner is going through which includes listening to whoever and deciding to let them influence her or not. They don't make her decisions for her. She's learning. ("Toxic Trio" forsooth!)

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I find it insulting that people you dont even know weigh in and influence your marriage like that.
Wow, "insulting." Would be nice to run the world and have your partner only listen to people or radio stations or only read book you choose? I don't believe you would really want that.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
But what to do, can't stop them doing that ( the sovereignty ).I know how you feel about all of this - me too. Trying to learn the new skills,but it doesnt seem to get better.
Hey. (Sarcasm warning) Maybe we can get rid of that sovereignty thing and all will be better.

Or maybe I can continue to share the terrific advantages of applied sovereignty (I'm getting tired of typing that word).


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #153964
09/05/11 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle


Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Since she left 18 months ago and quit her job, ostensibly to express her independence (that's what our daughters were told), she has lived exclusively on the substantial financial support I provide her and has occupied herself with volunteering, drawing, painting, photography and smoking and drinking daquiris. My kids don't get it either.
Sounds as if her growth is just started. What the heck is this about her living on your financial support!? You enabling her, perhaps?


Yup. That's what it feels like. However, the law says because she helped me build my business and was otherwise a stay at home mother (though she made violins and did countless other unlucrative things) I have to split my income with her 'in perpetuity'. Frustating but there it is.

At one time it was very important to her to be financially independent. Seems less so after each passing month. She has had a long history of starting projects and not finishing them or getting distracted and moving on to the next thing. I haven't noticed any change since she dumped me.



Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153968
09/05/11 07:21 PM
09/05/11 07:21 PM
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Edmond, has SHE ever been evaluated for any type of disorder? I do realize that sometimes when one is a hammer, everything seems like a nail, so I try to err on the other extreme. But when you write about her changes and behavior (and things that have never changed) I see some of my unmedicated and episodic self - I have bipolar disorder.

I can tell you that for someone who does have a disorder...the rules of engagement or lack of engagement are very different. The WORST thing someone could do for me if I was episodic would be to assume I make sense and give me sovereignty. because to put it bluntly....an unmedicated manic does NOT make sense...at all. The granola approach won't work for us when were are not sane smile

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: herfuturesbright] #153979
09/05/11 08:42 PM
09/05/11 08:42 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Good point, hfb. How did you go about finding out your "condition?" Was it left up to you? How long did it take? What way would you have appreciated being helped into discovering yourself?

I think lots of people suffer w/o any treatment. Very sad.

And thanks for sharing what sounds like "contempt" about the "granola approach."


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #153980
09/05/11 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle


Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I know they all must have more going for them if my wife has befriended them, I just have no idea what those things might be. All of their lives are in turmoil from what I can see.
I love the judgementalness explicit in your line. From a PreValidational and Sovereignty point of view, these are struggling valuable humans who you may not like.


Yes, I hear you. Unfortunately, my wife has surrounded herself with these struggling, valuable people I don't like. And it's breaking my heart that part of her seems to want to be like these valuable people I don't like.

It's making it very hard to loiter around in the lobby to Door#3 hoping she'll re-discover the person I like and want to head with me toward Door#1.

In the meantime, though I think I see things a little differently than Manup, I certainly understand his hostility toward what he perceives as 'bad influences'. My Lizard doesn't like these people and he has a hard time accepting the value of their existence. My cortex feels differently but I hear my Lizard on this point too, lol.

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #153989
09/05/11 09:29 PM
09/05/11 09:29 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Yes, I hear you. Unfortunately, my wife has surrounded herself with these struggling, valuable people I don't like. And it's breaking my heart that part of her seems to want to be like these valuable people I don't like.
Boy, are you talking about a huge issue, and it seems so relevant today - world wide.

I've got a close friend working in Israel on the forefront of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. She's working so hard to bring "understanding" to people who often seem to simply want to terminate their opponents.

To make sure I have your point, let me restate this part of your challenge. "How do I manage myself when a person I love befriends/chooses to be with people who's values I do not like at all?"

Did I get that?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #154000
09/05/11 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Yes, I hear you. Unfortunately, my wife has surrounded herself with these struggling, valuable people I don't like. And it's breaking my heart that part of her seems to want to be like these valuable people I don't like.
Boy, are you talking about a huge issue, and it seems so relevant today - world wide.

I've got a close friend working in Israel on the forefront of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. She's working so hard to bring "understanding" to people who often seem to simply want to terminate their opponents.

To make sure I have your point, let me restate this part of your challenge. "How do I manage myself when a person I love befriends/chooses to be with people who's values I do not like at all?"

Did I get that?


Yes, I think that captures an important aspect of my challenge. To add yet another wrinkle and also respond to HFB, I can say my wife has not been diagnosed with any condition.

My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with bi-polar though and is taking medication that has helped her a lot. Prior to her diagnosis she was in great distress, tried to commit suicide and it put a great deal of stress on our marriage. I had a one night stand and my wife was hanging on by her fingernails. As my daughter improved, my wife seemed to sort of just let go. I could understand that of course and I felt very compassionate as I watched her quit work, stay out late, take an unstable lover and dump out marriage.

I don't think she's bi-polar herself. But I do think she feels it's a very 'creative' condition and I believe part of her admires the drama as being 'artistic'. She wants desperately to unlock her creativity and I believe she feels surrounding herself with these erratic people will help her do that.

So more than just being around people whose values I don't like, I believe she is experimenting with her identity and wants to play with and possibly adopt many of these values for herself. I want to respect her sovereignty but I also want to respect myself. I feel tremendous remorse about the mistakes I've made and tremendous loyalty to her but at some point if she wants to be with and maybe become someone I don't like, maybe I have to not only let go but move on.

Very painful stuff.

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #154004
09/05/11 10:41 PM
09/05/11 10:41 PM
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herfuturesbright Offline
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herfuturesbright  Offline
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Ahhhh......so she could be a bipolar wanna-be. Actually, I have read some about this. People read about Van Gough, Beethoven, Samuel Taylor Coleridge.....and it's all so romantic....yeah, right.

Gosh, I was diagnosed in 2006, and it was the same time as the whole A thing. I was always....um....let's see what all words were used: artistic temperament, mercurial, dramatic, hot/cold, highly creative and sensitive. Did pretty well until after my first child and terrible post-partem. Then I was given an AD for mitral valve prolapse in the late winter/early spring of 2006 and within a couple of months I was full blown manic. The typical family history, long questionnaires, appointments with psychiatrist/psychologists were done. I was on a lot of meds for awhile, then less, then more......now I am on less than I have been in years.

I use the word "granola" kind of tongue in cheek and not in a mean way. I call the elementary school I went to "the granola" school because it was one of those creative, discovery learning type schools for gifted kids - so you can imagine smile I actually kind of like the exploration side of counseling to be included in most cases. But when I was at my most bizarre, I needed structure because.....let's just say that I was.....somewhat chaotic.

My DD has gone through a bit of fascination with the idea that she might have some disorder....and the internet has not been her friend. I think sometimes friends and family members deal with their response to someone's bipolar/MI in strange ways. Difference is, your wife is a grownup, not a teen like my DD, so she needs to grow up out of this.

The only other comment I would make is that though a variety of gifted and creative historical figures have had bipolar....I wouldn't wish it on a stray dog I didn't like.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 09/05/11 10:42 PM.
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: herfuturesbright] #154016
09/05/11 11:11 PM
09/05/11 11:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
Ahhhh......so she could be a bipolar wanna-be. Actually, I have read some about this. People read about Van Gough, Beethoven, Samuel Taylor Coleridge.....and it's all so romantic....yeah, right.
I really want to thank you for your input, HFB. I recall a book ( Link Here) by a friend about how lots and lots of greatness in our world has been lost on the couch of psychoanalysts or with the drugs of psychiatrists. On the other hand an horrifying number of kids have been shamed all the way through childhood as they simply displayed symptoms of distress. World can be pretty awful and chaotic.

Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
Gosh, I was diagnosed in 2006.... I was on a lot of meds for awhile, then less, then more......now I am on less than I have been in years.
Congratulations.

Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
But when I was at my most bizarre, I needed structure because.....let's just say that I was ..... somewhat chaotic.
My imagination runneth rampant. I like your awareness that you needed structure. Often "liberal" parents don't know what that is, and "non-liberal" are the ones a kid is trying to get away from. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
My DD has gone through a bit of fascination with the idea that she might have some disorder....and the internet has not been her friend.
Good advice. And warning. For all of you out there who are taking psychology courses, you'll have to take an Abnormal Psych class. You may find you are a name-the-diagnosis wanna-be throughout that course. Read the fine print and you'll find that almost every diagnosis/label has a threshold of symptoms, above which you "have the disorder" and below which you are simply miserable w/o the nice mastertalk label. A very tricky field.

Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
Difference is, your wife is a grownup, not a teen like my DD, so she needs to grow up out of this.
Great point. Tis tough on parents who often have no training or perhaps negative training in this area.

Still as an adult, what are your thoughts about how you would have been receptive to ideas about "growing up out of this" from a partner or parents?

On a side issue, my experience is that "control freak families" like mine often face this problem. For years they maintain structure in the best way the know how. Then when their kids grow up, suddenly the behavior of the kids looks like a bunch of convicts who are just let out 20 years of prison with $5000 in their pockets. All hell breaks loose.

If this explosion of rebelliousness occurs 10 years into a marriage, which happened to be an extension of that "prison," I would expect surprises. And I am no longer, personally, surprised by this.

At home we joke about "the warden." Tis part of both our personalities that watches others for signs of rebelliousness.

Me, I'm learning still. Trying to always recall that I live in the U.S.of A., a culture built upon rebellion not obedience.

I love creative people and artists and, oh, computer programmers.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #154027
09/05/11 11:36 PM
09/05/11 11:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
"How do I manage myself when a person I love befriends/chooses to be with people who's values I do not like at all?"

Yes, I think that captures an important aspect of my challenge.
Good. I got it then. See below.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with bi-polar though and is taking medication that has helped her a lot.
Glad you are sensitive to this.
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
So more than just being around people whose values I don't like, I believe she is experimenting with her identity and wants to play with and possibly adopt many of these values for herself.
This is a critical place that I disagree with Harville Hendrix. If you look at my Biological Dream or my idea of Vintage Love you will note the component I believe is built into us called Purpose. In other psychologies this is often called Self-Actualization, but I prefer to go back to the idea of Purpose / Meaning that you will find referred to in Man's Search for Meaning ( Link here) or in most indigenous cultures.

sually I think Purpose, which I believe has a powerful spiritual component, begins to surface after the four lower needs of Safety, Reliable Membership, Diversity, and Autonomy are well into being satisfied in the relationship.

But, says I to Harville, "What if you satisfy those earlier needs and find a couple with unique Purpose's that take then away from each other - take them down different paths - paths that are not compatible? I think the couple would end up splitting up." In reality, I think the couple would help each other go their separate ways. Thus it is possible to have an Imago Match who would leave each other - not live together happily ever after.

Hmmm, well, I don't think that is happening here, with your wife, but it's possible.

I think, and I am just guessing, you are witnessing a bunch of "released felons," and rather than helping them/her enjoy their freedom with better responsibility and better skills, you see yourself either a) trying to get her to come back to jail, and leave her carousing buddies on the street, or b) leaving her where she finds herself. What a choice! What you gonna do?

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I want to respect her sovereignty but I also want to respect myself.
Great thinking.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I feel tremendous remorse about the mistakes I've made
Feeling remorse isn't probably anywhere near enough. Sorry.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
and tremendous loyalty to her but at some point if she wants to be with and maybe become someone I don't like, maybe I have to not only let go but move on.
Tough decision. I wouldn't dream of trying to make this for you. Tis yours.

If you want her back, tis a long journey, but I think fruitful for you.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #154045
09/06/11 12:02 AM
09/06/11 12:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
Quote:
On a side issue, my experience is that "control freak families" like mine often face this problem. For years they maintain structure in the best way the know how. Then when their kids grow up, suddenly the behavior of the kids looks like a bunch of convicts who are just let out 20 years of prison with $5000 in their pockets. All hell breaks loose.

If this explosion of rebelliousness occurs 10 years into a marriage, which happened to be an extension of that "prison," I would expect surprises. And I am no longer, personally, surprised by this.


More like 12 years into the M.....I do love my parents, but here is an example:

I took art lessons for a few years and was pretty good. The teacher went to our church. When she moved, I was 11, and I never took art again. The reason? The other art teachers in the area were rather "hippy-ish," and Mom and Dad had already observed some "hippy" tendencies in my personality. They didn't want to encourage it. Interestingly enough, it is my parents who have always been most skeptical of my diagnosis. While H was immediately ready to accept it, as it not only explained everything about me he did not understand....it is a ready "reason" for any irrationality I might display.

Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #154099
09/06/11 01:12 AM
09/06/11 01:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
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LadyGrey  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes

Yes, I think that captures an important aspect of my challenge. To add yet another wrinkle and also respond to HFB, I can say my wife has not been diagnosed with any condition.

My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with bi-polar though and is taking medication that has helped her a lot. Prior to her diagnosis she was in great distress, tried to commit suicide and it put a great deal of stress on our marriage. I had a one night stand and my wife was hanging on by her fingernails. As my daughter improved, my wife seemed to sort of just let go. I could understand that of course and I felt very compassionate as I watched her quit work, stay out late, take an unstable lover and dump out marriage.

I don't think she's bi-polar herself. But I do think she feels it's a very 'creative' condition and I believe part of her admires the drama as being 'artistic'. She wants desperately to unlock her creativity and I believe she feels surrounding herself with these erratic people will help her do that.

So more than just being around people whose values I don't like, I believe she is experimenting with her identity and wants to play with and possibly adopt many of these values for herself. I want to respect her sovereignty but I also want to respect myself. I feel tremendous remorse about the mistakes I've made and tremendous loyalty to her but at some point if she wants to be with and maybe become someone I don't like, maybe I have to not only let go but move on.

Very painful stuff.


This is getting downright spooky weird.

From where I sit, it looks like your wife took her sovereignty back from you then turned around and immediately handed it off to those people you find distasteful.

Reminds me of that childhood game of "Hot Potato".

I suspect the nature of the way you interfered with her sovereignty is diametrically opposed to the way these now folks interfere.

It doesn't seem to me she has taken if for her own.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
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