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Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #157173
09/14/11 03:47 PM
09/14/11 03:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 505
Misty Offline
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Originally Posted By: Amadahy
Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
That is horrible, how are you emotionally now?

tink


i am okay.
When one is dealing with the guilt of cheating it is hard.
When one has to compound that with the knowledge that their cheating, their betrayal, what THEY did directly resulted in their rape.

Rape is normally something outside of a womans control.

Mine was a result of my infidelity...so lets load about another truck load of "what a crappy person am I" and spread it around my self esteem garden.

That being said...i own my mistakes and I am working towards being a strong person who does not allow men to manipulate her or use her...any man...ever.


NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Stop it. Rape is ALWAYS something outside of a woman's control.

You did not cause the rape by your infidelity. I am so tired of hearing you say that when it is am absolute LIE. You made a mistake by putting yourself in a dangerous position but the rapists are 100% responsible for the rape.

Even if a woman were to walk naked down a dark alley, she would not be responsible for being raped. She is only guilty of doing something stupid and not taking care of herself.


I am working very hard to heal after 8 years in an emotionally abusive marriage.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #157174
09/14/11 03:48 PM
09/14/11 03:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65
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AtTheEnd? Offline OP
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AtTheEnd?  Offline OP
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Medc,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Things turned out well, considering the circumstances. I've tried to remove myself from all of the drama occurring in my stbx's life, and for the other couple, they seem to be serial cheats (both of them). This is the life my stbx has chosen, and I'm not here to save her. It's hard enough saving myself and children.

Life goes on, and it looks promising. Looking toward the future, but living today.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #157176
09/14/11 03:55 PM
09/14/11 03:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65
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AtTheEnd? Offline OP
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Amadahy,

I'm so sorry for what happened to you. You are not responsible for those actions. Do not live with the blame or guilt.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Misty] #157470
09/15/11 09:42 AM
09/15/11 09:42 AM
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Looking4 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Misty
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Stop it. Rape is ALWAYS something outside of a woman's control.

You did not cause the rape by your infidelity. I am so tired of hearing you say that when it is am absolute LIE. You made a mistake by putting yourself in a dangerous position but the rapists are 100% responsible for the rape.

Even if a woman were to walk naked down a dark alley, she would not be responsible for being raped. She is only guilty of doing something stupid and not taking care of herself.

I pray that someday you will come to believe and accept this, Amadahy, because it is the truth. Those who hurt you are responsible for their actions. Those people and those alone.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #157471
09/15/11 09:50 AM
09/15/11 09:50 AM
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Posts: 1,064
Looking4 Offline
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Originally Posted By: AtTheEnd?
Thanks for all of the input and please continue the discussion. This is all very informative and insightful. My stbx has OM and they are very serious. He is separated from his W and last I heard intends to D his W, although he is keeping relationship with stbx a secret.

...

Thanks to all, and please continue.

I don't follow the divorce boards, AtTheEnd? and wasn't familiar with your story. I don't know you but you sound upbeat, especially for what you're going through. I hope things continue looking good and your course remains positive.

Take care.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157472
09/15/11 09:54 AM
09/15/11 09:54 AM
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Looking4 Offline
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Thank you for taking the time to respond to me, LdG.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I don't believe many unfaithful spouses would agree that poor boundaries were the sole and proximate cause of the affair. There are, in my opinion, always other factors at play, like, for example, the availability of someone with whom to have an affair, his or her presence and availability also being causative factors.

But you didn't say this. You stated that you doubt any unfaithful spouse believes that is the reason. You didn't state that you doubt any unfaithful spouse believes it's the "sole" reason. You didn't qualify your statement with possible other factors. And both Amadahy and I disputed what you claimed.

I agree with what you put following, about how important it is for the BS to make changes otherwise the OP can live on in the WS's head.

When I find myself flinching, LdG, is when you make statements on behalf of FWSs or FWWs, painting us all with the same brush.

Yes, we likely have things in common -- the most unifying being that we were with someone outside of our M. But why each individual chose to have an A, how each of us went about it, what our response was when it ended, what our M was like before, how our spouse responded on D-day, what our spouse asks, what our spouse is doing for or against us, how we are working through the A ourselves, how forums may or may not be helping us, how our M is today... In every one of those and hundreds of other aspects, us FWSs may be very different.

We may have similarities, but we may not. And I bristle when you project that your situations and feelings and reactions and ways of doing things are the same situations, feelings, reactions, and ways of most if not all of us FWSs. I also bristle when you imply that those of us who don't do things as you think they should be done are talking heads or "yes" people following some misinformed, twisted, or unjustified script. (A script I've never seen but you refer to it quite a bit.)

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
In my opinion and experience, poor boundaries allow for the affair, but don't cause it, one reason I am a big beleiver in EP's as they ensure that regardless of what is going on in my life and in my heart, I won't be making that particular mistake again. I've had the same boundaries around men my whole adult life, but I wasn't vulnerable. I became vulnerable because of a confluence of events, and my poor boundaries put me in the position where another man was meeting my needs. Had I had better boundaries, I would not have been in that position.

I see what you're saying here and this makes sense to me. It wasn't the boundaries that caused your A, boundaries or the lack thereof influenced its allowance. I can relate to this statement.

And this is what I prefer. You relating to us by sharing your personal experience. Explaining how YOU feel and what YOU did and not lumping all of us FWSs or all of us on MA or all of us who post on forums or all BSs into the same group.

When you talk from your heart and share your individual feelings and experiences without adding comments that allude to judging how others may feel or how others handle things... I think the former is far more affecting.

For example:
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
From the standpoint of the faithful spouse, it may LOOK like the effort was successful: the no contact letter has been sent, all avenues of contact have been shut down, the polygraph has been demanded and secured, the unfaithful spouse has followed the remorse/repentance script -- check, check, check, win.
Some of us FWSs have done some of these things and yet there is a mocking tone in your post, as if you think taking select steps toward recovery is a game. I read sarcasm, similar to your comment I already brought your attention, about not being stupid enough to tell the truth to someone who might be in a position to harm you.

Your apparent digs and seeming attempts to get an ulterior message across get in the way of what might otherwise be a powerful message.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: L4
I wasn't told to say anything. And even if I was, I don't have to say it. No one can make me or anyone else do or say anything. I had an affair in very large part due to my poor boundaries. And I really believe that.

I was told to say exactly that and not elaborate. You are correct - no one made me, but I was trying to do the right thing.

Then say this. Share your experience.

Say, for example, "I was told by _____ that I had to say boundaries made me do it and so I did. I said boundaries made me do it because I thought it was the right thing to do even though I didn't believe that. My lack of boundaries helped set the stage, but I cheated because..." just like you wrote above.

When you instead write:
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
If you hear what we are told to say -- "the reason I had an affair is that I have poor boundaries around men/women," you may feel better, but you aren't getting good data as I SERIOUSLY doubt there are many unfaithful spouses who really believe that,"
...you're speaking for others. And unless you take a poll among a controlled group or you have proven data from a reputable source (cite it please), you don't have a basis to know what us unfaithful spouses as a whole were told nor what we as a whole really believe.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Look, I'm not saying that is a BAD thing to say or that it's not true - I'm saying that in my opinion it is an incomplete answer. The recipient isn't getting data which may be valuable depending upon the desired outcome.

But you pretty much did say its not true that unfaithful spouses dont really believe poor boundaries cause affairs. Yes, you did not come right out and state that, but in the context of your first-hand experience and credibility as a FWW, I believe saying you SERIOUSLY doubt others who have your similar experience are telling the truth infers very strongly that it is not true. Technically you didn't say this, but how it was presented appears to me like you wanted to make sure there was little wiggle room to think otherwise.

I agree with you that the statement, "Boundaries caused my affair," on its own may not provide all the data that may be useful for the BS. And I got that from the rest of your post after a few reads. It was a great point to make.

How you started that message, though, hinted you think those who did send an NC letter or who did/do show remorse or who do believe lack of boundaries had impact don't have minds of their own or their way is flawed or less or ridiculous... You didn't directly state any of these things but your use of sarcasm gives off the vibe of disapproval. A position that I think you want to get across without stating it directly. Of course, I could be wrong. (Which is why I'm not a big fan of sarcasm. I prefer people say what they want/mean/feel to allow fewer opportunities for misinterpretation.)

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My reasons were different from yours. My understanding of how it happened is different from yours. And that is OK because I am different from you and my life is different from yours.

Ding, ding, ding! EXACTLY! I also believe it's okay that we're different. (If it wasn't, what could we do?) And it -- us being different -- is why, when you position your personal experiences as generalities representing the rest of us, I get kinked.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I think the important thing is that we honestly evaluate our vulnerabilities and weaknesses and seek to shore up those areas.

I think the same.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
For example, I know I tend to give into my fear. I am working on facing my fear and speaking more honestly, which of course requires that I know what I think/feel which is a whole separate challenge. I may not be progressing at a speed that some find satisfactory, but I am progressing. It's tricky for me. It's easy for others. Others may find aspects of their relationship tricky that I find easy. We are all different.

Which is why I think it's best if people talk from their own experience and/or actual fact. You may not agree with that, but, for example, I think what you wrote right here is more powerful than the comments you made about what we're told to do or your observations on why BSs try to get their spouses back. To me, that whole paragraph on BSs trying to secure their flesh seemed added for reasons of making a statement against BSs and people on forums and especially the MB forum. I didn't understand how it related to AtTheEnd?'s questions.

FWIW, I think it's great you feel you're making progress. My experience in trying to work through my A and my M problems has been dodgy too so, even though our situations aren't the same, I can relate to the word "tricky". I hope you continue your forward movement and I hope you don't give further thoughts about the speed at which you're moving. Everyone has their own timeline for dealing with things. From what you've shared, you have people who need you. I believe those people and your own peace, which you deserve, are what are important.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The sin, to me, would be if we failed to grow from the experience.

Amen.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I apologize for offending you. We have differences in our lives which color how we interpret this statement.

Thank you for your apology, LdG. I appreciate it.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: L4
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh, often an achievable goal, the MB program as executed by the forum is in my view being the best vehicle to secure that very outcome. I've now seen it effectively used towards that end numerous times.


I have seen the opposite here on MA and on MB. I see BSs wanting to get their WSs back so they can improve their Ms. Who are these "most" that you refer too? Who are all these people who have compelled you to state that most BSs are motivated to get their spouses back "to secure the pound of flesh?

The recovered marriages I see on MA -- including those that I know used MB as one of if not their only guide -- were motivated to stay with their spouse and have a better M, not stay married just to punish their WS. And from what I see throughout this forum, this desire to have a better M is the rule, not the exception.


It is possible you and I could read the same posts and have diametrically opposed opinions on this point.

It's absolutely possible.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
It is also possible that you would not include on the list those who beat up on surrogate unfaithful spouses but claim to have recovered. I do include them.

I don't know if it's possible because I don't know what a surrogate unfaithful spouse is. Please define surrogate unfaithful spouse.

I have a couple of questions regarding this You wrote:
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh...
Are the people who claim to be recovered whom you believe beat up on surrogate unfaithful spouses the same people who are betrayed spouses who are on forums looking for help on how to get their WSs back? I made my original comment to that statement because it reads like you believe they are one in the same but I should make sure.

If the answer to the above is yes, is it their marriages that they claim are recovered or is it their own selves that are supposedly recovered? I think these are two different things that may or may not co-exist which is why Im asking.

Also, if those wanting to beat up on surrogate unfaithful spouses are the same as the betrayed spouses seeking help, please please please name the members here or link to a few of their posts because I most definitely want to share my thoughts with anyone who is here on MA trying to recover their M for the purposes of punishing their unfaithful spouse.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
This was the main point I was trying to make in response to the "surviving initial contact with the enemy" metaphor, that while the end of the affair might look good on paper from the standpoint of the faithful spouse, the unfaithful spouse has to finish the process. The timing may be unfortunate in that those weeks following the official end may coincide with unpleasant happenings in the marriage, making it harder to stick with NC. At least that was my experience.

I think it's a very good point.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The phrase "snapping out of it" implies to me an event, and I think some may experience it as a process. Being alert to that possibility may be helpful.

Another good point. I snapped out of having contact with the FOM. It was an event and the A in physical form ended immediately. In emotional and psychological form, it continued for a while.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I am well aware of what I am supposed to think, and maybe someday I will.

How do you feel about sharing what you're supposed to think and why you're supposed to think it?

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I post them because if it helps someone like futureunknown understand his wife a little better, he may find healing in that understanding and avoid certain pitfalls in the future - like my bet is he will keep a close eye on the "hope" ball - or it helps someone understand that their wandering spouse may need assurance that returning to the marriage isn't emotional suicide, then it is worth being spoken to the way I am spoken to and reading the things I read about myself.

I dont know how you view how youre spoken to (good or bad?) or if you think youre being spoken to by everyone here the same way. Evidence throughout this site shows me you have dozens who follow you and who appreciate your words so I hope you're getting something positive from being here, just as you hope you're giving.

My intent for this long post is to help you see how I (and I'm only speaking for myself) sometimes interpret your posts. Your tendency to make blanket statements representing groups to which I belong can offend me and your periphery sarcasm distracts me from what might otherwise be the purpose of your message.

I recognize you may not give a rat's pahoony how I interpret your writings, but I thought I might give context for why I comment when I do.

I believe very strongly in people being held accountable for their words. And written words I especially pay attention to because they can last a lifetime.

I understand written words can be misinterpreted since they don't include the body language or inflection that can otherwise define them. Which is why, if I'm unsure of something I read, I try to ask before I assume what someone means.

I also believe people can change and change their mind.

Finally, I believe correction, know people make mistakes. (If they repeat them, however, I believe they are not mistakes but beliefs or problems.) I make mistakes and if I misrepresent an individual or a group as a whole, I hope people will point it out to me. If I misunderstand someone, my wish is they'll correct me. If I hurt a person, I want them to let me know how.

Thanks for reading this, LdG, and thank you, AtTheEnd?, for allowing this conversation to take place.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157568
09/15/11 04:17 PM
09/15/11 04:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
Squeaky Tree Offline
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Not quite here
Thank you L4 for clearly articulating your perspective, one which I share.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #157653
09/15/11 07:18 PM
09/15/11 07:18 PM
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Posts: 242
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futureunknown Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: 20yrshurt&r
Bad analogy on my part coach. Dealing with emotions and people are definitely not the same as an enemy that can be predicted to a degree and rock solid contingency plans laid down.


FWIW, I thought it was a really good analogy, although I have no military experience.

I heard you saying that the initial efforts to end the affair won't be successful. And they won't. I'll go out on a limb and say they won't 100 percent of the time. Boundary or ultimatum, it makes no difference.

From the standpoint of the faithful spouse, it may LOOK like the effort was successful: the no contact letter has been sent, all avenues of contact have been shut down, the polygraph has been demanded and secured, the unfaithful spouse has followed the remorse/repentance script -- check, check, check, win.

But unless you are doing SOMETHING to make your unfaithful spouse think things might be different, SOMETHING to make yourself a not actively hideous person to be around, which I consider a fairly low standard, SOMETHING that suggests you aren't going to maximize the leverage the affair gave you, I can ASSURE you, whether your spouse is male or female, that affair rages on in their hidden world.

I routinely fled to the memory of the Guy, a man who was nice to me, for a very long time, until the memory got too thin to grab.


I was nearly certain of this in my W's case, which is why I was so hesitant to put my heart back on the line, and why I believe it's so important for the unfaithful spouse to take every opportunity to show the faithful spouse that they are remaining in the marriage by choice, and that they choose their spouse over the affair partner. I'm not talking about overt declarations, but rather every day things, and positive little comments. If the unfaithful spouse is incapable of or not willing to offer that, the marriage is doomed, IMO.

Simply not being hideous is not enough of a requirement on the faithful spouse though. Just because they were cheated on doesn't take away their obligation to be a fun, warm, charming, and flattering partner. Once I agreed to try to reconcile, my W and I talked and laughed all the time, there was never a harsh word between us, we seemed genuinely happy to see each other, we did fun things with the kids, and we went on fun dates, but that still didn't remove the ghost of her OM from her mind, which eventually caused me to throw in the towel. If she wanted him so bad, fine, she could have him.

Quote:

I now flee elsewhere, but I still flee from my husband. Although I like to think I am unique, I doubt it.


That is very sad. Why do you flee from him?


Quote:

A percentage of faithful spouses who believe the affair is "over" might be surprised at what their unfaithful spouse is, in fact, thinking.

A percentage of unfaithful spouses fall right into line with the faithful spouse calling the shots and it looks really good, and it may stay good looking.

A percentage of faithful spouses truly understand their role in the affair and are willing to table their need to be Right and do what it takes to heal the marriage.


I tried. I did a tremendous amount of reflection, and I owned my failure in the marriage. I felt no great need to be right, but I did need her to own that her behavior during her affair was selfish and cruel to me and the kids. She instead chose to continually defend the affair and her OM, saying how much they loved each other, and blamed me for making her feel unloved. What could I possibly say to that?

Quote:

The thing is, you can never know which category you are in unless your spouse trusts you enough to share with you. If you hear what we are told to say -- "the reason I had an affair is that I have poor boundaries around men/women," you may feel better, but you aren't getting good data as I SERIOUSLY doubt there are many unfaithful spouses who really believe that. I certainly don't. I believe my husband's treatment of me was a direct causative agent to me having an affair.

There are those of us who are not stupid enough to be honest with someone who is in a position to cause us major harm.

My observation is that with very rare exceptions, most are motivated to get their spouse back to secure their pound of flesh, often an achievable goal, the MB program as executed by the forum is in my view being the best vehicle to secure that very outcome. I've now seen it effectively used towards that end numerous times.


My W would try to share with me, but I didn't know what she wanted back from me. Did she want to me to say I was glad she felt loved by OM? Did she want to me say I forgive her? I tried to walk a line of giving her the room to hold onto the good things from her affair, but yet still needing her to own her behavior.

Although I certainly had a good amount of anger inside me, I was also hopeful. I chose to put my energies into the hope, but when my W continually chose to bash the hope, and espouse how much she DIDN'T regret her affair, eventually my anger won out, and we did have one argument when I couldn't hold back my desire to secure a pound of flesh. I said a few things I know hurt her, and I regretted it. She seemed to want to get that out of me, to validate her suspicion of my true motivation. We've never really talked since that argument, almost one year ago.

Quote:

I suggest deciding what outcome you want in "snapping them out of it" and conforming your conduct accordingly. Consider being honest with yourself about what you are really seeking, recognizing the distinct possibility that your spouse may not trust you enough to be honest with you, now or ever.


I don't think my W does trust me enough to be honest with me, and probably never will. After a decade of her accusing me of imagined malicious thoughts and intentions toward her, I can't see any chance of her ever giving up her belief that deep down I want to hurt her for what she did to me.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Danf] #157657
09/15/11 07:24 PM
09/15/11 07:24 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: Danf
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
as would be seeing the devastation of the BS and family. Another dose of reality.


I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

I'm not sure it is healthy for me or other BS's to really even think about this until it actually happens. I think it causes us to continue to be stuck in limbo, when the majority of us probably shouldn't have any hope.

Dan, you're right in that your WW was already gone by the time you found out about the A and she saw your devastation. Nothin' wrong with the WS seeing that, it's real hurt.

If her mindset ever changes, she will live with that memory of you. The wayward mindset is too busy thinking of themselves/blaming their spouse. I saw this with my H. Real hurt is human, I don't view it as weak or something to be ashamed of at all. I think there is more damage in denying the hurt. It may never go away but it does fade so that it doesn't consume your waking hours.

My statement above was made by me remembering the impact that our kids had on my then WH. They grilled him hard as did a very good friend of mine. We were in limbo cuz he refused to step up and spill the truth. Once the truth was out, another dose of reality, recovery wasn't easy but at least then it was genuine.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157658
09/15/11 07:25 PM
09/15/11 07:25 PM
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Wonderful post L4

claps claps claps


The sun never says to the earth "you owe me"
Look what happens with a love like that.
It lights up the whole sky.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Vittoria] #157673
09/15/11 08:01 PM
09/15/11 08:01 PM
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Looking4 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


Married 19 years
Two children - DS12 & DD10
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: serendipitous] #157677
09/15/11 08:09 PM
09/15/11 08:09 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: future
I can't see any chance of her ever giving up her belief that deep down I want to hurt her for what she did to me.


I wonder what it would cost her to give up that belief -- why she clings to it.

I'll admit It is a tempting thing to believe -- makes it easy if that's the case.

This is a stumbling block on which I often stumble that I don't see discussed much. Sometimes when I feel myself letting my guard down a hair with him, I remind myself that he wants to hurt me for what I did. I'm not saying that is true, but it is a tape I play.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157678
09/15/11 08:11 PM
09/15/11 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


Ditto what L4 said, I had no idea he loved me...not really.
I didnt think he wanted me at all really. i wasnt young anymore or thin...and all the woman he looked at were young and thin so he must not have wanted me...

I didnt know how much I mattered to him until that horrible moment...the irony being that I ceased to matter to him as much because he withdrew to protect himself.

So in doing what I did I learned that he wanted me...but by doing what I did...he stopped wanting me.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Looking4] #157679
09/15/11 08:18 PM
09/15/11 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


I know your husbands pain and wish that I had a woman that was willing to stand up when needed.

You are a good woman L4.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: serendipitous] #157681
09/15/11 08:20 PM
09/15/11 08:20 PM
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The points that I had wanted to comment on were from LdG and I can sum up my thoughts with this paragraph ....
Originally Posted By: L4
My intent for this long post is to help you see how I (and I'm only speaking for myself) sometimes interpret your posts. Your tendency to make blanket statements representing groups to which I belong can offend me and your periphery sarcasm distracts me from what might otherwise be the purpose of your message.

The blanket statements about FWS's and mockery over BS's are hurtful and I know that they both distract me too.
L4, thank you for putting so much thought into that post!
ST, agree with your definition earlier and medc's additions to it.

Back to the thread topic .... calling someone on their thinking that is harmful to recovery or will prevent any recovery from happening is in the best interest of the M, which is what this forum is about. Like what has been mentioned a few times, once by me earlier in this thread, the 'snapping out of it' is like a slow 360 of a big ship rather than a 'snap'. Ignoring harmful thinking does nothing to help turn that ship, it causes setbacks in the M. Our M coach was good at calling out that thinking, I'm grateful for that.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: LadyGrey] #157683
09/15/11 08:23 PM
09/15/11 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Sometimes when I feel myself letting my guard down a hair with him, I remind myself that he wants to hurt me for what I did. I'm not saying that is true, but it is a tape I play.


Sounds like two hurting people who have lizards that are freaked out still. Somebody needs to change the tapes you all are playing. scratch

What's that quote by Ghandi I like? "You must be the _____________ you wish to see in the world."

Cheers


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Misty] #157687
09/15/11 08:29 PM
09/15/11 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Misty
Originally Posted By: Amadahy
Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
That is horrible, how are you emotionally now?

tink


i am okay.
When one is dealing with the guilt of cheating it is hard.
When one has to compound that with the knowledge that their cheating, their betrayal, what THEY did directly resulted in their rape.

Rape is normally something outside of a womans control.

Mine was a result of my infidelity...so lets load about another truck load of "what a crappy person am I" and spread it around my self esteem garden.

That being said...i own my mistakes and I am working towards being a strong person who does not allow men to manipulate her or use her...any man...ever.


NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Stop it. Rape is ALWAYS something outside of a woman's control.

You did not cause the rape by your infidelity. I am so tired of hearing you say that when it is am absolute LIE. You made a mistake by putting yourself in a dangerous position but the rapists are 100% responsible for the rape.

Even if a woman were to walk naked down a dark alley, she would not be responsible for being raped. She is only guilty of doing something stupid and not taking care of herself.

I was thinking the same thing, Misty.
Hugs to you Ama.

At the End .... I didn't know your story until I read what you wrote here. I'm sorry that you weren't able to recover your M. You sound like a caring person who would have gave recovery his best shot. Your WW is a fool to have given up that gift.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Amadahy] #157706
09/15/11 09:22 PM
09/15/11 09:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
Squeaky Tree Offline
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Not quite here
Originally Posted By: Amadahy
Originally Posted By: Looking4
Originally Posted By: Danf
I think X seeing my devastation worked against me by causing me to look weak and her to lose respect for me. Then again, it may not have mattered either way. I think she was already gone before the devastation occurred.

Hi, Danf.

Just want to share that of all the pain I saw in and from my H after our D-day, there is one moment that is burned in my brain.

About a week after I confessed to H, I stumbled upon him crying uncontrollably into a towel while sitting on his bathroom floor. I did not see a speck of weakness in that whatsoever. I had seen raging anger, disgust, hurt, disbelief, sadness, and many other emotions from him before that, but it wasn't until that morning that I saw the pure, raw, rock-bottom devastation that my A had unleashed on him. It knocked me to my knees.

Seeing my H as vulnerable and even scared put what I had done into true perspective for me. He is my husband and my kids' father and I knew then and there I owed him my best attempts at helping him heal.

I didn't disrespect him because of what I saw. I actually wanted him more because I saw how much he cared.


Ditto what L4 said, I had no idea he loved me...not really.
I didnt think he wanted me at all really. i wasnt young anymore or thin...and all the woman he looked at were young and thin so he must not have wanted me...

I didnt know how much I mattered to him until that horrible moment...the irony being that I ceased to matter to him as much because he withdrew to protect himself.

So in doing what I did I learned that he wanted me...but by doing what I did...he stopped wanting me.


I wanted to see that with my H. I wanted to see that it really hurt him, I wanted him to curl up in a corner and beg me to stay with him, I wanted to see that he loved me. I didn't get any of that.

He cried through the vows on our wedding day.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Squeaky Tree] #157710
09/15/11 09:57 PM
09/15/11 09:57 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: ST
I wanted to see that with my H. I wanted to see that it really hurt him, I wanted him to curl up in a corner and beg me to stay with him, I wanted to see that he loved me. I didn't get any of that.

Understandable how we base our worth to someone based on their reactions or lack of. I might feel the same way, IDK.
They can be accurate or completely off the wall, our interpretation I mean.

ST, have you ever told H what you wrote above?


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Squeaky Tree] #157714
09/15/11 10:05 PM
09/15/11 10:05 PM
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Medc Offline
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Quote:
I wanted to see that with my H. I wanted to see that it really hurt him, I wanted him to curl up in a corner and beg me to stay with him, I wanted to see that he loved me. I didn't get any of that.


I understand where you are coming from but I would NEVER want to be responsible for causing that much hurt and pain in another person. I would have a hard time forgiving myself if I put a loved one through that kind of hurt.

While I am certain that you would like to KNOW that someone cares that much, I think you should be thankful to have never witnessed by L4.

Just my opinion.



Don't go shaking the [Bleep!] tree and expect an angel to fall out.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat...know it and don't be surprised. Protect yourself.

Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Medc] #157718
09/15/11 10:17 PM
09/15/11 10:17 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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I agree Medc. Remember, we've experienced it and are fully aware of just how crippling that hurt is. Not having had to experience it first hand, I could only imagine how awful it would be to discover an A, the imagination can never do that type of pain justice. Much like we can't ever know the pain of guilt for inflicting such hurt.

I see ST's point like you and I see her view of how no/little reaction can be seen as no/little care.

Last edited by Vittoria; 09/15/11 10:18 PM. Reason: clarity

26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: AtTheEnd?] #157795
09/16/11 01:49 AM
09/16/11 01:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
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Connecticut
Gardener Offline
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An excellent thread.

My ex was a WAW, not a WS.

Nothing, no amount of counseling (individual, marriage, or spiritual), or reading or soul-searching or analyzing or forums made ANY sense or explained the abrupt and total disappearance of my Dear Friend and instantaneous replacement by The Alien until I read the following by Snodderly on "that other site."

Given my ex-wife's abusive childhood and the recent (at the time of The Bomb) death of her father, this post by Snodderly (and other posts of hers) helped me begin to make some sense of it all...

I list it below in case it rings true for others who may never have read it.


"I thought it would be nice to start a thread on exactly what my thoughts are on why the spouse tends to run away during their crisis. I have done a lot of reading and listening to my friend about his thoughts and feelings during his crisis. So here goes.

Generally the man/woman in crisis has had a terrible childhood. Their childhoods consisted of parents that fought, drank, did drugs, physically and mentally abused their children, emotionally distanced themselves from their children, but most of all abandoned their children. The more I read about the various "learned" personality traits, the more I'm convinced that as children they were mentally abused to the point of not believing in themselves at all. They felt dirty, unwanted, stupid, worthless, their self esteem was shot to hell. The parents had these children, but really didn't love them unconditionally. Most of the "crisis" children have ADHD, ADD, PA, BPD traits. They suffer from bouts of depression, are very good at lying, picking fights, defensive, and tend to self-medicate with alcohol, drugs, sex and spending. As I've listened to my friend, I've come to realize that even though "crisis" children appear normal on the outside, they have a constant internal war going on inside of themselves. They have been damaged beyond repair at that young age and it will take many years for them to even feel safe w/another person, if then. They feel very threatened by anyone that comes near them emotionally and physically. They can't handle it because they fear that this person will hurt them or take away whatever it is that they hold near and dear in their lives. As the "crisis" child grows up, he/she tends to be a loner, stays to him/herself and doesn't trust anyone to enter their safety zone. They tend to not show their emotions except in bouts of anger and are very guarded about their thoughts and feelings. They tend to distance themselves from others. I call this the dance, because when a person gets close to the "crisis" individual, he/she will distance enough to not feel threatened. You the spouse will never know the real person that lives within the "crisis" person until the two personalities are merged into one. The person you know is actually the shell of a person and he/she is very good at masking what he/she is really thinking at all times. However, during the major growing times, i.e., 20's, 30, and 40's (mid-life especially), the "crisis" person has another problem. It's at this time that the "crisis" child is starting to raise its ugly head, becomes stronger and wants to voice it's opinions on how that person was mistreated as a child. It's at this time, that the splintering/splitting occurs. This where the crisis child is doing internal battle with the crisis adult. The battle is a 24/7 emotional roller coaster for the adult. The pain, hurt and anger are there 24/7 w/o any relief. I've sat and listened to my friend speak of many things that happened in his childhood and to hear the hurt and anguish in his voice makes me want to cry for him. It is at this time when the emotional pain becomes so great that the adult can't handle any other stress in his/her life. This person doesn't trust the spouse enough to speak about the turmoil inside. They feel that the spouse will not accept them for who they are right at this moment. Why? Because that person has now entered mlc and will be there for a while. That person knows that something is terribly wrong and knows that he/she must leave in order to heal those long ago hurts. If you recall, as children, when we were scared or punished, we all wanted to run away. Remember those times? Well, this is what is happening to your mlcer. They are very scared and very hurt and they only thing that they know how to do is run, as the "crisis" child comes on the scene. The best thing that this person can do for himself/herself is to go see their parents, sit down and actually talk to their parents about how they perceived their childhood and tell the parents just how hurt and angry they are for how they were mistreated. If they don't do this, it will take longer for them to heal.

As spouses and friends of the mlcers, we must always keep in mind that they are in a very fragile state when the "crisis" child gains control. They are so confused and hurt. The anger is not at you, but at what life has dished out to them. It's the hurt coming out and it's really a delayed reaction to how they were mistreated as children. We have to remember to treat them kindly and with compassion during this time. Why? Because this could have happened to you. During the "crisis" child stage, you will be viewed as the mother/father authority figure, therefore you are the one that gets the brunt of what is happening. They are afraid to speak to their parents for fear of what the parents will do to them. Who better than us to get the emotional flack? They know we love them, they just don't know how to deal with the emotional pain that goes so very deep. Folks, I've had many long conversations w/my friend and I can tell you, he is suffering terribly from his "crisis" childhood. Until he resolves his issues and speaks to his father, he will continue to run and never heal.

I hope that this will help some of you better understand what is happening. I'd welcome all of your comments. As time goes by, I'll post more of my thoughts and observations. Mlc is not a pretty sight by any means, especially if the mlcer is willing to sit down and speak to you about how he/she is feeling. That's why it is so very important to be a friend during the crisis. You will learn so much more about what is going on. Keep the expectations to zero and I feel very strongly that your spouses "crisis" child will speak to you. Listen carefully, sift through the garbage coming out of their mouths and the answers are all there. It's not about you, but about them and how they were mistreated as children.

Take care."


Peace,
Gardener

"My soul, be satisfied with flowers, with fruit, with weeds even;
but gather them in the one garden you may call your own."
Cyrano deBergerac
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Gardener] #157820
09/16/11 02:36 AM
09/16/11 02:36 AM
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My mlc WH his parents are deceased now. He has run to another W. I don't see any healing that will be happening for our marriage or family.

His childhood fits the description of most of what you mentioned, the funny thing so does mine, so I get the added bonus of being abused as a child and now deserted in a marriage.

I choose to stay when it got hard, he choose to run.

Last edited by tinkerbell; 09/16/11 02:45 AM.
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: ] #157828
09/16/11 02:54 AM
09/16/11 02:54 AM
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Connecticut
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Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I choose to stay when it got hard, he choose to run.
and that's the hardest part to reconcile, to accept. While there was no "when it got hard" in my situation, just a total "out of the blue," the running away, far and fast with no explanation ever given devastated me for the better part of three years.


Peace,
Gardener

"My soul, be satisfied with flowers, with fruit, with weeds even;
but gather them in the one garden you may call your own."
Cyrano deBergerac
Re: WS/WAS: What snaps them out of it? [Re: Gardener] #157858
09/16/11 04:29 AM
09/16/11 04:29 AM
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Well, in things that got hard his alcoholism, as for when this when it happened, it was out of the blue, I was floored esp since I choose to stay.

I have not been given an explanation, have you gotten one yet?

I really do think what you put about it is a shell they aren't showing you all of who they are, or how you worded it. You have really delved into this, thinking about it. Thanks for posting it all, it helps.

Last edited by tinkerbell; 09/16/11 04:31 AM.
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