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Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #165603
10/09/11 01:47 PM
10/09/11 01:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,806
NewEveryDay Offline
Advocate
NewEveryDay  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,806
Al, that's what I was hoping you'd say. Very few answers are like that, "yes, it gets easier with practice."


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #165923
10/10/11 05:50 AM
10/10/11 05:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Quote:
I've been working with a lot of people over the years and my experience is that even if they know the Power Struggle phase is coming, even if they frantically learn all they can, they still seem to hit it.


I'm in complete agreement. I was married before. I've been through so much marital counseling, coaching, self-help, seminar, studying, etc that one may not believe it. I don't believe it sometimes, myself.

I began dating my now-H. I knew the phase was coming. I knew it was happening. I knew what was happening. I knew this and struggled to stop it for years. It didn't stop it, and nothing but getting another person involved would, IMO, have stopped it. That "nothing else would have stopped it" is about my own personal situation, but I do not believe that you can skip the power-struggle or "conflict" phase.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #167959
10/14/11 06:44 PM
10/14/11 06:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,069
2long Offline
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2long  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,069
Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle


Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Since she left 18 months ago and quit her job, ostensibly to express her independence (that's what our daughters were told), she has lived exclusively on the substantial financial support I provide her and has occupied herself with volunteering, drawing, painting, photography and smoking and drinking daquiris. My kids don't get it either.
Sounds as if her growth is just started. What the heck is this about her living on your financial support!? You enabling her, perhaps?


Yup. That's what it feels like. However, the law says because she helped me build my business and was otherwise a stay at home mother (though she made violins and did countless other unlucrative things) I have to split my income with her 'in perpetuity'. Frustating but there it is.

At one time it was very important to her to be financially independent. Seems less so after each passing month. She has had a long history of starting projects and not finishing them or getting distracted and moving on to the next thing. I haven't noticed any change since she dumped me.




Sorry for parachuting in based on this old post and after not having been on the whiteboard for a long time, but this struck me: Is there no way 2 change the dynamic here? I assume from what you've posted that you're still married? Would it be liberating (2 both of you) 2 proceed with a divorce and settle your finances with a lump sum? (if you have the resources that is?).

Because it seems 2 me that you both may be "trapped" by your own different perceptions of what this "split my income with her 'in perte2ity'" means 2 each of you. She may be "trapped" by being enabled (e.g., it'd be riskier 2 make a living on her own when she has a known, paced income from you for perpe2ity, but it might be healthier for her; and would you really be able 2 find love again with someone new if you're supporting an ex 'in perpe2ity'?).

I posted a youtube video on the "music" thread, of a song by Neko Case called "I wish I was the moon" that had this lyric in it that I thought of when I read your posts:

"God bless me
I'm a free man
With no place free to go
Paralyzed and collared tight
No pills for what I fear
This is crazy"

and I'm also reminded of Al's pic2res posted above, only I think there needs 2 be a third pic2re: Similar 2 the 2nd, only there are no bars and the guy in the box is standing right in the middle - he can't see the problem, or maybe he perceives that the control is overarching both him and his W (the legal decree) so he sees no point in looking for solutions because there can't be any.

Apologies, again, for parachuting in like this...

-ol' 2long

Last edited by 2long; 10/14/11 06:53 PM.
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #169687
10/19/11 03:57 PM
10/19/11 03:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,220
Coach Offline
Member
Coach  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,220
Al, How do we use what we learn about our Imago match help us to better see our partner and to grow ourselves? I see how the lizard gets triggered quickly by the old hurts and the need for better coping skills. There is also value in applying those lessons outside of our marriage.

I think part of my question is does our partner really help heal us from those old wounds or are we doing a better job of healthy self-soothing? How do you quiet those "snakes on a brain" (my term for lizard) once and for all?

Cheers


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Coach] #169810
10/19/11 06:39 PM
10/19/11 06:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Coach
Al, How do we use what we learn about our Imago match help us to better see our partner and to grow ourselves?
Big topic here. I have been pondering and discussion and checking out the concept of Imago Match for, oh, about 20 years. In my men's group we chat of it a bit every week. In the office I see it as well as seeing in my family, and in those that I meet. Lots of ways it has become useful. Where do I start?

The most obvious place is with that flood of feelings that ushers in Romantic Love. If those feelings last for days and weeks, and hits both people, then Imago Matching is most probably going on strongly. At that point what use is knowing about it? Nada. The phenomena of Romantic Love, of dreaming the Biological Dream, is so powerful, I don't even think of messing with it.

You might get a kick out of this, but the next place where I think of the Imago Match working is in horrid relationships between people who won't get away from each other. I have individual who come in all the time who seem to be in an ongoing terrible pattern with another, but who doesn't want to leave or be left by this "horrible" person. I think of this a a kind of "super sticky" relationship.

Often they will tell me that everyone in their life is telling them to get away from that other, and I just validate their profound need to be with them. I am often alone in doing this.

The Imago Match is quite a discussion piece for people who have been married or coupled many times. Makes comparing and contrasting those relationships quite a fun project.

The idea that your Imago Match (current one) will be your worst nightmare by about 20 to 50 times worse than anyone else in your life, is useful. If you learn how to be friends with this person, everyone else is much easier. This also provides a lot of empathy for couples who are "battling" and some wonderful wisdom for the Christian teaching about learning to "love your enemy."


Originally Posted By: Coach
I see how the lizard gets triggered quickly by the old hurts and the need for better coping skills. There is also value in applying those lessons outside of our marriage.
Well, yeah but your partner is paradoxically chosen to provide those triggers at an awesomely high rate. Therefore the coping skills you will develop will be industrial strength coping skills. This seems to be particularly true as in childhood the best skills are often to run away or to wait until you can leave home, but in an Imago Match relationship you have to develop skills that will handle/deal with those triggers maybe forever. No escape.

I often think that if I could take a couple in the Power Struggle phase, drop them in a spaceship to Mars, they would be the best of lovers by the time they came back partially cuz they could not get away from each other and the solutions to all their problems had to be that good.

The word heal is an often misread one. In my website I have a story about a Water Buffalo that I think contains the best image for me of healing. I heal you by helping you find your wounds, working with you to find what action you need to heal each wound, practicing the triggering and the healing actions until the reactivity is gone - till the wound is healed. And you me. Water Buffalo story.


Originally Posted By: Coach
I think part of my question is does our partner really help heal us from those old wounds or are we doing a better job of healthy self-soothing? How do you quiet those "snakes on a brain" (my term for lizard) once and for all?
Couple of additional thoughts. The snakes are healed when the same trigger behavior has no effect of so little effect that you are not even bothered anymore. Avoiding the triggering situation doesn't heal the wound. I think this is partly why divorce profoundly doesn't work.

The original wound (wounding situation) is in your past, often way far in the past. Once that wounding was done, it will never be gone simply because we cannot forget. Not designed to. While you can trigger yourself (in your thinking) what really brings the wound to the surface is a)someone mimicking the original wounding situation who is b) in significant ways like unto the original person who did the wounding.

In b) we see our Imago Match - a person who our unconscious selects as a reasonable facsimile of the wounding parts of our caretakers. (This is called a transference relationship, one where I transfer onto the person near me the attributes of someone else - in this case the pain causing caretaker.)

In a) we see the triggering.

The healing of the wounds involves adding new memories on top of the old. Now the "caretaker" is doing what I needed them to do in the past. And the new experiences help us expect new reactions/behaviors and we get to consign the reactive trauma to our old history.

How I see it. And I am just scratching the surface here.

Good luck.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #169910
10/19/11 09:02 PM
10/19/11 09:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,220
Coach Offline
Member
Coach  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,220
Quote:
I heal you by helping you find your wounds, working with you to find what action you need to heal each wound, practicing the triggering and the healing actions until the reactivity is gone - till the wound is healed. And you me.


I think to often a wound is perceived as a hole that one or both sides see that needs to be filled usually with poor coping skills. "Fix me" or "let me fix it."

I know all to well how the Water Buffalo was trained. I had a conversation today that triggered me, I was "blaming the stick" and did not respond my best. I need to talk to her about how, why and what to do differently. Thats for teaching me.

Cheers


You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Re: Turtle Corral: A Bit off the Open Range - Building Trust [Re: Coach] #170785
10/21/11 03:44 PM
10/21/11 03:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Coach
I think to often a wound is perceived as a hole that one or both sides see that needs to be filled usually with poor coping skills. "Fix me" or "let me fix it."
I try to be very careful on this "healing" or "fixing" issue.

I think both the Romantic and the Power Struggle phases are good examples of people acting like little tiny kids. "Fix me" is what kids ask of caretakers. ("Mommy/Daddy fix my hurt finger.") And I think "Let me Fix you" is what kids-damaged-into-Codependency ask of caretakers. ("Mommy/Daddy don't cry. I'll make it better.")

Neither are examples of two adults or two peers working together. And that is what, I think, a real coupled relationship/marriage is based upon - peers.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
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