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Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. #49246
01/11/11 07:24 PM
01/11/11 07:24 PM
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Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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Please remember that it's better to have read the 3 articles on Bullying and Passivity before you enter this topic on application. The changes in thinking that I made, as I figured this stuff out, were enormous and very very valuable. I believe most people in our culture know nothing about it. If you learn the stuff I share, you may a) start getting along much better with everyone and b) feel as if you are a bit of a stranger in our culture.

The three articles are: Autonomy I , Autonomy II , and Autonomy III.

Here we can have sharing about where we see this stuff going on, what we try to do to change it, and what works/doesn't work.

I want to share that Bullying/Passivity issues will always involve the Lizard, and Reliable Membership for that matter, but the issues and solutions are within our thinking, our cognitive training.

The core appearance it in Power Over: people trying to control other people or people seeking out people who will control them, or people staying with people who control them.

Secondary levels are in temper tantrums, obsequiousnes, and needy hurting people. For nicknames I temporarily label (all labels I think should be temporary) these postures as Tyrants, Wuses, and Princesses.

Third levels involve blaming, quilting, shaming, teasing, and of course MasterTalk.

I've found that most common forms of this involve dysfunctional communication about the "TRUTH:" about stating my Truth as if it were THE Truth, about seeking the TRUTH, about wrestling about which Truth is THE TRUTH. If unchecked, I believe this all will predictably lead to physical violence.

And so, if you wanna go backwards, I think you can. When you see physical violence, if you look closer you will see Third level stuff (blaming, MasterTalk, etc); behind which you will see Second level stuff (the posturing of Tyrants, Wuses and Princesses); behind which you will see the First level behavior and thinking (people trying to control others or people enjoying irresponsibility by letting others control them).

The cool thing is I don't think humans are designed for this. They have to be taught.

The simple solution, I have come to firmly believe, involves durable democratic or dialogical behavior. And this is a skill requirement to reaching the relationship of your dreams, I believe. And I think we humans are designed for this.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #49425
01/12/11 01:40 AM
01/12/11 01:40 AM
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Telly Offline
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Hi! (Telly waves as she peeks into the room)

I am not ready to comment on the application portion, but I just wanted to let you know that I have been steadily reading along, and am thinking about all of these things.

I'm keeping a notebook of all the articles (I print them up), and am looking forward to stepping forward with all that I am learning.

So glad you are here, Al.


Married 13 years
D10
D5
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #49428
01/12/11 01:47 AM
01/12/11 01:47 AM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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I just want to drop in for now to say: "Respect".

I had to stop twice during the second paper to take a nap.

Initially, I think my lizard might have been a little overwhelmed by the exposure of my Master behaviour and later I felt overwhelmed by a sense of watching the consequences of my learned dysfunction ripple through my life, gently at first and then harmonize into huge, destructive seismic waves.

Slowly, I've found myself moving from overwhelmed by the sight of the rubble and the size of the task in front of me, through guilt and sadness to something that is starting to feel like groundedness.

Thank you.

Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: Edmond Dantes] #49628
01/12/11 03:08 PM
01/12/11 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: edmond_dantes
I had to stop twice during the second paper to take a nap.


I'm glad to see someone else indicate sleepiness -- it isn't boredom in my case. I think I feel such a profound sense of relief at that Lizzy drifts off, knowing I'm starting to understand her.

I'm an avid reader, and for me this is an unusual reaction.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: LadyGrey] #49680
01/12/11 04:13 PM
01/12/11 04:13 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: seekingbalance
Originally Posted By: edmond_dantes
I had to stop twice during the second paper to take a nap.


I'm glad to see someone else indicate sleepiness -- it isn't boredom in my case. I think I feel such a profound sense of relief at that Lizzy drifts off, knowing I'm starting to understand her.


As the writer of that second paper, I wish now that I could have been briefer and more to the point. But at this point it is kind of historical, and I don't want to erase it.

I wrote it after I had struggled for five years with what I thought was the incompleteness of the first paper - Master/Slave. When you read that first paper, you might think that the role of Passive Master was an afterthought. Actually it kinda was. At that time I was still buried in a culture that sheltered the "victim." My goal, then, was to create what I saw was a "level playing field," so as to find a solution.

By the time I got to the second paper, I had "realized" the Passive Master as much more common and as often the more powerful position. No longer an afterthought.

Also while my intincts were to never "blame the victim," I had begun to see the "victim" (silly label) as more powerful than the perpetrator.

I had been plagued by an image. "Downtown New York. 10 people. One attacks another and does a bunch of physical damage. While the wounded person lies there, the assailant walks away and 8 people watch. Who do I think is 'more responsible' for this ugly event: the assailant, the onlookers, or the victim?" My answer had become the "onlookers."

So when I approached the second paper ( Power of Passivity ), I was launching into sharing my firm beliefs that might be not only controversial, but also might bring me a lot of flack. I think that whole paper was a kind of "being gentle with the victims and the onlookers" as I shined a bright light on their irresponsiblity.

So I got wordy. Sorry.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: Edmond Dantes] #49699
01/12/11 04:58 PM
01/12/11 04:58 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I just want to drop in for now to say: "Respect".

Dear Edmond, Thanks for dropping by, sharing, and adding that word "respect" to the mix. I believe that most of what I am writing, and particularly this topic, is about the mechanics of "respect." Telling someone to be "respectful" I find often achieves nothing. Trying to be "respectful" can be very frustrating, as if often doesn't come across respectful.

But doing the "things," the skills, that make people feel respected, seems actually easy.

Remember to "respect," look kindly on, yourself for the things you did before you learned to do better. A rule of thumb and a nice one.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #49717
01/12/11 05:23 PM
01/12/11 05:23 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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I hear you saying you used a lot of words in that second paper in an effort to be extra careful to be understood because you felt you were approaching an especially controversial subject.

I also hear you saying that but for your concerns about the potential upset you might cause by sharing your understanding about the role of "victims" in relationships, you would have choosen to be more direct.

For what it's worth, I have a perspective on this that might interest you.

I'm a very experienced criminal defence lawyer and I deal almost daily with the challenges that flow from the relationship dynamics you describe.

One of the things I think I've learned about the limitations of our justice system is that there is a bias toward examining only the snap shot in time when the alledged offence occurred and either ignoring or downplaying the whole web of relations that 'led' to the 'incident'. There seems to be good reason for this, mostly efficiency concerns I think, but it is very frustrating to some of us interested in justice that goes beyond simply assigning blame and punishing 'offenders'.

With this background I was not surprised by your analysis of the role of 'victims' nor did I find I had to wrestle with that aspect of your thinking very hard.

Having said that,I was still glad you laid things out the way you did.

If you understood my comment about having to nap while reading the paper to mean I was either bored or made to work harder than I needed to understand your ideas, I apologize for not being clearer. I'm actually glad you broke things down as carefully as you did.

I noticed a bit of resistence in myself to having a mirror held up for me in which I could see myself and my 'master' behaviour and orientation so clearly. I felt I needed to take a couple breaks to shut down and process the information and I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had been approached more directly and without your careful spade work.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts here. It seems like real Elder wisdom to me.

Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: Edmond Dantes] #49781
01/12/11 06:16 PM
01/12/11 06:16 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I hear you saying you used a lot of words in that second paper in an effort to be extra careful to be understood because you felt you were approaching an especially controversial subject.

I also hear you saying that but for your concerns about the potential upset you might cause by sharing your understanding about the role of "victims" in relationships, you would have choosen to be more direct.


Great job of accurately mirroring my message. Makes me really feel you heard me. Nice feelings.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
For what it's worth, I have a perspective on this that might interest you.

Great job of what I would call respectfully shifting directions: from listening to sharing. Nice. And I am interested.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I'm a very experienced criminal defence lawyer and I deal almost daily with the challenges that flow from the relationship dynamics you describe.

One of the things I think I've learned about the limitations of our justice system is that there is a bias toward examining only the snap shot in time when the alledged offence occurred and either ignoring or downplaying the whole web of relations that 'led' to the 'incident'. There seems to be good reason for this, mostly efficiency concerns I think, but it is very frustrating to some of us interested in justice that goes beyond simply assigning blame and punishing 'offenders'.

With this background I was not surprised by your analysis of the role of 'victims' nor did I find I had to wrestle with that aspect of your thinking very hard.

Having said that,I was still glad you laid things out the way you did.

Thanks for sharing so respectfully. I admire your experience and appreciate your valuing of my work.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
If you understood my comment about having to nap while reading the paper to mean I was either bored or made to work harder than I needed to understand your ideas, I apologize for not being clearer. I'm actually glad you broke things down as carefully as you did.

I hear you. Actually I did not guess you were bored. I got the image that you needed to take some time and did finish. I appreciate your being clearer, tho.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
I noticed a bit of resistence in myself to having a mirror held up for me in which I could see myself and my 'master' behaviour and orientation so clearly. I felt I needed to take a couple breaks to shut down and process the information and I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had been approached more directly and without your careful spade work.

Glad I could help with some new thinking on your part. I, too, need to take some time when working on "heavy' stuff. I actually took years of gestating to write that paper and a week of piecing it together. So I wonder was my spade work a week long or 5 years. I actually think these things just drop out every so often as one is leading one's life. I/we are lucky that I found a way to write the stuff.

Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts here. It seems like real Elder wisdom to me.

Thanks for this point also. At some point I realized my job was to become a cool old elder. (I think this happened after I was deeply looking at the gender path for women. When they stop trying to "look" like barbies, what next?! They work on becoming cool, old chrones (elder female).)

I came to realize that the path to elderhood (Michael Meade's spadework helped me) involved rumaging through the "mistakes" I had made in my life, extracting the learned wisdom, and making that wisdom available to younger or other people. (No sense in not admitting to, or looking at, my mistakes.)

One thing I really learned is that I can always share My Wisdom. But I don't have "The" wisdom. That, I believe, belongs to God.

Thanks for sharing here, Edmond, about your journey toward Elderhood.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #49835
01/12/11 07:29 PM
01/12/11 07:29 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
So I wonder was my spade work a week long or 5 years. I actually think these things just drop out every so often as one is leading one's life. I/we are lucky that I found a way to write the stuff.


For me, I imagine it took your whole life to that point to gather the wisdom to write it. That's one of the things I love about elders, it seems to me everything that comes out of them is the latest flowering of a seed that was germinated at birth.

I work occasionally with Cree and Ojibway elders and I love hearing what they refer to (with a twinkle in their eye) as Indian stories. These stories often seem to me to meander and, I've heard some people complain, have no 'point'. I've never found that to be the case myself. Rather I heard it as a kind of personal poetry by which they shared their wisdom without trying to dress it up as the Truth. It seems to frustrate some but I've always loved that.

Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: Edmond Dantes] #49868
01/12/11 07:57 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Beautiful way of looking at it. And remember, I believe one is always converting onself into an Elder - quicker or slower. What I gather about those cultures, they form themselves, without writing, around the topic of Wisdom. Huston Smith reminded me that our libraries have no sections on the topic of Wisdom,


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #50937
01/14/11 05:25 AM
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Al, I'm thinking, the reason that you found it easier to get the folks in the Master role to try friend-friend is because it is low-risk for them. And in an abusive relationship, it's a familiar part of the dance, anyway. "See how nice I was to you? So now the least you could do is do this for me." If I understand correctly, you said in the second paper that it takes consistency in their efforts before the person in the Slave role will slowly if at all step out of it.

The person acting in the Slave position in a family is in a much harder position. He or she will be met constantly with huge abouts of change-back behavior. That person, who was used to abdicating responsibility, being the low-battery person, now has to consistently put huge effort into the new behavior. Any slacking, and I would guess that most folks would have low-energy days from time to time, and it feels like it's back to square one. While most days are much easier now, it still takes a huge effort some days to stay consistent. To say what I mean and mean what I say, instead of pretending that I can do the extra stuff family members hint at or ask for. But I know I have to keep finding a way one way or another to stay consistent, or I'll be reinforcing that old behavior again.

Quote:
One of the things I think I've learned about the limitations of our justice system is that there is a bias toward examining only the snap shot in time when the alledged offence occurred and either ignoring or downplaying the whole web of relations that 'led' to the 'incident'.


I share this bias. We all face plenty of pressures daily, but understand and agree with staying within the law. I expect the folks who refuse to do this to be held accountable for their own behavior.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: NewEveryDay] #51051
01/14/11 04:03 PM
01/14/11 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay


Quote:
One of the things I think I've learned about the limitations of our justice system is that there is a bias toward examining only the snap shot in time when the alledged offence occurred and either ignoring or downplaying the whole web of relations that 'led' to the 'incident'.


I share this bias. We all face plenty of pressures daily, but understand and agree with staying within the law. I expect the folks who refuse to do this to be held accountable for their own behavior.


I hear you. I too think it's good to hold people to account. I also think the best way to protect people in the future is to do what can be done to see it doesn't happen again.

In dealing with offenders I've found the biggest obstacle to rehabilitation is the tendancy of the offender to shirk responsibility for their part in the incident by pointing to the refusal of others to acknowledge the totality of the circumstances. It took a long time in my country, for instance, for the law to recognize the role of past abuse when dealing with abused women who eventually turn on their abusive men and commit criminal acts.

In my experience, when the 'system' makes an effort to understand before punishing (but not in lieu of punishing), rehabilitation is far more effective. Just my opinion of course.

Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: NewEveryDay] #51117
01/14/11 05:25 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Al, I'm thinking, the reason that you found it easier to get the folks in the Master role to try friend-friend is because it is low-risk for them.

Glad you are engaging this topic. When I made the comment about Master role being easier to address, it was based on my office experience as well as my theories of what is going on in a person when they are in Master. Probably it was also looking back at my experience of being Master. I was not thinking so much of risk.

I think that of the three (Master, Passive/Master, Slave) positions, the Master is probably the most mature. Therefore the distance to Friend/Friend is a bit shorter. First a Master has to "get it" that their ways of acting doesn't achieve their goals. Second, they need to open up to empathy. Discovering the enormous, and hidden, resentment, even hatred, of all around them, can be quite a wake up call. And they have to replace their tendency to use temper with tools that work better.

Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
The person acting in the Slave position in a family is in a much harder position.


This is the one situation where I often recommend IC. A person in a Slave position needs a whole lot of support in learning to value themselves. Their partner can help a lot, but not until that partner matures a bit.

Quote:
One of the things I think I've learned about the limitations of our justice system is that there is a bias toward examining only the snap shot in time when the alledged offence....


Oh this also is such a topic. Where do you think the offence is: the thing that breaks the "law" or the "emotionally abusive" stuff before and around. I fear the law people (lawyers, police, judges, clerks, etc.) can only do what they are paid to do. I think for their own peace of mind, they have to blind themselves to the "horror" that they cannot change or often even talk about.

This guy in Tucson! What do we do about the people/caretakers that nurtured him?! the ones who have not broken the "law."


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: Edmond Dantes] #51124
01/14/11 05:36 PM
01/14/11 05:36 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
In dealing with offenders I've found the biggest obstacle to rehabilitation is the tendancy of the offender to shirk responsibility for their part in the incident by pointing to the refusal of others to acknowledge the totality of the circumstances. It took a long time in my country, for instance, for the law to recognize the role of past abuse when dealing with abused women who eventually turn on their abusive men and commit criminal acts.


Good thinking, and I have gone a bit further. I think the biggest problem with rehabilitation have to do with returning a person labeled "offender" back into the family, community that passively or actively encouraged them to offend in the first place. They may take increasing responsibility, but are often surrounded by people who a) do not rigorously remind the "offender" of their responsibility or b) who take responsibility themselves.

I believe the "offender" is often seeking Validation in a community that can easily blame them for everything in the situation - invalidating offenders. I fear that the greatest source (not the only source) of "offenders" are the "slaves." Scary.

Of course my thinking sometimes can be pretty extreme.

Keep sharing on this.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #54704
01/20/11 05:11 AM
01/20/11 05:11 AM
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The Dark Side of the Moon
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Quote:
The cool thing is I don't think humans are designed for this. They have to be taught.


Could you elaborate on why you think this?

Quote:
The simple solution, I have come to firmly believe, involves durable democratic or dialogical behavior. And this is a skill requirement to reaching the relationship of your dreams, I believe. And I think we humans are designed for this.


*sigh* I agree. These are difficult skills to learn for those of us - which is the majority of humans - who do not come from a democratic FOO.

What if someone doesn't come from a democratic society (aside from the political system). That is, the entire society does not function on democratic dialog, but on a hierarchy of power imposed on others? It must be very difficult to learn.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AntigoneRisen] #54951
01/20/11 07:52 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
The cool thing is I don't think humans are designed for this. They have to be taught.


Could you elaborate on why you think this?


I have many subtle observations but a couple of major ones.

When I met with Dan Siegel and read up on his pretty deep study of the functions of the human brain ( The Mindful Brain), I became impressed that our brain's design reflects democratic relating, not "power over."

My reading of William Glasser's Choice Theory had pretty will settled the idea of how "Power Over" is foolishly used in Psychotherapy. Dialogical relating once more surfaced.

Oh there were so many others that reflected this. Riane Eisler's work way back when had planted the idea that most of our "westernized" cultures are structured around the power and the logic of an army.

My experience in Navy showed how useful this was at war and how perilous it was in peacetime. Here I was shown the great training tool of our culture at it finest - bootcamp.

I then began to see politics as most often the descendant of warfare, and to realize how much churches were often just organizations that followed Military Thinking.

My acquaintance with Malidoma Some helped me see what a culture based on dialogue would look and operate like. And there was that old, as far as I'm concerned, study of a "sane culture" in the South Seas by Bronislaw Malinowski.

As I worked with couples, helping them toward what I called Vintage Love, the process often began to seem more and more like de-programming - decoupling from the culture that raised them and re-establishing natural skills. My guess about how well they will do has less to do with how horribly they were indoctrinated and more to do with their desire for something vastly better.

Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
What if someone doesn't come from a democratic society...


Heck, AR, I have met only one person closely who came from a democratic society - and not in the US of A. No couples that I have worked with ever seemed to come from one. Our US cultures certainly may be aspiring, but I don't think our families, most churches, political parties, etc, etc, are very good examples of democracy.

I think the biggest, most constant, example of growing democracy right now is found in couples trying to get to Vintage Love. Seems I recall John Bradshaw saying that, too.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #162541
09/29/11 08:17 PM
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I've had brief contact with main bully from my FOO experience last night and today. He doesn't look scary to me anymore, and hasn't for a while. However, today I realized on more than an intellectual level that he's not even infuriating. He's just more than a bit pathetic.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AntigoneRisen] #162689
09/30/11 01:40 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
I've had brief contact with main bully from my FOO experience last night and today.
..... He's just more than a bit pathetic.
Yeah and it seems sad. People who use bullying, who have gotten away with it for a long time, can just seem sad.

I celebrate the distance you have travelled, AR.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #184808
12/03/11 07:25 AM
12/03/11 07:25 AM
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AntigoneRisen Offline
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Al,

I debated which is the best thread to discuss this idea with you. I settled on this one, although I can move it if you wish.

I've been thinking about your idea, "All people disagree all the time." I don't think that's objectively true. I agree with a lot of what you say, for instance. My H and I agree quite often. Do we disagree on some particulars? Sure, but we both agree that, say, the cat is cute.

So, I've been thinking about it even beyond that. Why is this paradigm helpful? I think the answer is that if we go into any dialog from a paradigm that normalizes disagreement, we handle it more positively. Our lizard isn't surprised, for one.

So, what say you about my observations?

~AR


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AntigoneRisen] #184849
12/03/11 04:55 PM
12/03/11 04:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Great to hear from you, AR. Good place as any to look at this. Most of my "OneLiners" have quite a history behind them. Some I still use all the time when I share with people. This one I often use, so the history is clear for me. Might as well be serious about this question. Here are my thoughts.
Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
I've been thinking about your idea, "All people disagree all the time." I don't think that's objectively true.
Actually this one emerged from putting together a) the teachings of General Semantics about the process of Abstraction with b) the concept of the disease of Emotional Symbiosis and specifically the second Symptom: Limited Awareness that others see things differently.

Let me kind of summarize. The study of General Semantics reminds us to try to be aware of the level abstractness that we are thinking or communicating and to not mix those levels. An example would be to be aware that "all animals are cute," is more abstract than "all cats are cute" which is more abstract than "this cat is cute" which is more abstract than "this cat is cute right now." The value of this awareness is that one doesn't confuse a thought about "all animals" with "this particular animal at this moment." Lots of (to me) foolish arguing involves one person thinking at one level of abstraction when another is thinking at another.

Here's an example of this. She says, "You are always late and didn't even pick me up at 2pm when you said you were going to." His response is "Well, I am here now."

Now the other point is that the more you heal your Emotional Symbiosis, the more you are aware of the existing differences in points of view even before you hear about them and that your posture is one of relaxed curiosity.

So I believe the phrase "All people disagree all the time." is both useful and accurate. If my wife and I "agree" to go into town on Saturday, if we curiously look more closely, we will always find different reasons and beliefs in our "agreement." And I believe it is these differences and openness that make up the intimate contact between us. I see the "agreement" as just kind of a "close enough for government work" phrase reflecting a that we both are guessing that our thinking is similar enough to get into the car.

Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Why is this paradigm helpful? I think the answer is that if we go into any dialog from a paradigm that normalizes disagreement, we handle it more positively. Our lizard isn't surprised, for one.
I think I am completely with you. I still recall the day that I said to my wife, "I agree with you." and she responded strongly and perhaps sarcastically, "I don't think so." I think we were both moving into a comfortable world of mutual curiosity, sharing and validation, from a fragile, shallow and perhaps delusional (my word) world of agreement.

I know my Lizard dislikes surprises. Pre-judging that my partner will be thinking differently protects him from these surprises. She says, "I disagree with you" and I quickly respond, "Of course you do. Tell me about it." My sharing gives her an opportunity to notice and share her differences. And vice versa.

I think the common pattern in couples is to "punish" people for sharing differences and to encourage them to "pretend" to agree. (Back to Emotional Symbiosis.) I don't like it, tho I did it for much of my life. My Lizard profoundly dislikes it.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AlTurtle] #189525
12/18/11 08:25 PM
12/18/11 08:25 PM
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AntigoneRisen Offline
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Quote:
Lots of (to me) foolish arguing involves one person thinking at one level of abstraction when another is thinking at another.


Very true. Also true is that my concept of "cute" probably differs from others' concept of "cute".

Quote:
Now the other point is that the more you heal your Emotional Symbiosis, the more you are aware of the existing differences in points of view even before you hear about them and that your posture is one of relaxed curiosity.


Yes, I think that concurs with what I said about expecting and normalizing disagreement. Instead of being surprised and dismayed by it (or even rejecting the possibility that the person disagrees), one can move toward understanding the differing viewpoint.

I see quite a bit of useless (well, in my opinion) arguing that seems to base itself in the following hypothesis: If the person disagreeing just understood everything (facts and logic) I do about this subject, he/she would see it as I do (would agree with me). So, I'd better start communicating those facts and logic so he/she can have the correct opinion (mine).

Quote:
if we curiously look more closely, we will always find different reasons and beliefs in our "agreement."


Oh, yes, differences in the details emerge. As the old adage says, "The devil is in the details." smile

Quote:
I think the common pattern in couples is to "punish" people for sharing differences and to encourage them to "pretend" to agree. (Back to Emotional Symbiosis.) I don't like it, tho I did it for much of my life. My Lizard profoundly dislikes it.


My lizard has a generalized aversion to feeling an attempt is being made to force me to pretend to agree.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 3a: Applying "Stop the Bullying!" - Building Trust. [Re: AntigoneRisen] #189536
12/18/11 09:17 PM
12/18/11 09:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Yes, I think that concurs with what I said about expecting and normalizing disagreement. Instead of being surprised and dismayed by it (or even rejecting the possibility that the person disagrees), one can move toward understanding the differing viewpoint.
Hang onto that point. I like it.

Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
I see quite a bit of useless (well, in my opinion) arguing that seems to base itself in the following hypothesis: If the person disagreeing just understood everything (facts and logic) I do about this subject, he/she would see it as I do (would agree with me). So, I'd better start communicating those facts and logic so he/she can have the correct opinion (mine).
Well, I was raised by people who had been taught to believe that. I fell into step with them. What I kept stumbling upon was how such discussions seemed to always lead to either "agreeing" when I/they didn't, or to moving away from each other (agreeing to disagree and keep a distance from those people who express disagreement).

As a fairly forceful person (me) I began to find that those people who were close to me tended to be those who "pretended to agree" a lot not just with me. I would find that their real beliefs were often kept secret. When my Lizard figured out that they were "pretending to agree with me," it freaked and kept it up.

Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
I think the common pattern in couples is to "punish" people for sharing differences and to encourage them to "pretend" to agree. (Back to Emotional Symbiosis.) I don't like it, tho I did it for much of my life. My Lizard profoundly dislikes it.


My lizard has a generalized aversion to feeling an attempt is being made to force me to pretend to agree.
Yeah, I disliked people who tell me what to think or believe, but also I found that I didn't mind so much telling others what to believe. Still, as I said, my lizard began to mistrust people who "agree."

My divorce really put an end to this foolishness for me. As things went on, I began to get spooky awareness of how little I had known what my 1st wife was experiencing. As more and more emerged, I realized I had not been in contact with her for years and years. I was capable of being in a marriage, being a father, all that stuff, and not knowing what was going on in the head of my "lover." The divorcing was a complete surprise to me, fundamentally based on how much I was unaware of her "disagreements," her pains when living with me.

Finally I took the position that the only person you can trust is someone who will disagree and who does disagree right in your face. Then you know when they are agreeing that they really are - and not just faking.

Now back to your point. I shifted away from thinking that "they would agree if they knew all my facts" toward thinking that "very belief" to be a sick, pathology inside of me. Instead of reacting to their disagreement, I began reacting to my foolish thoughts that they should/would agree.

My Lizard actually loves this and truly feels cozy and safe when people are sharing their various points of view without reactivity or punishing behaviors. My guess is that my Lizard is finally very content that my cortex understands about PreValidation. I think he helps/reminds me to apply it all the time.

Now I habitually clear the way for understanding and validation and respect. The more "outrageous" the idea presented to me, the more fun it is (Lizard sees it as a kind of playfulness). Was reading some Ken Wilbur stuff the other day that suggested my thinking and position are shared by more and more people. Of course I also think we need lots of people who disagree with use to give us practice relating and refining our communication styles.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle

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