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Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: right here waiting] #269353
12/15/12 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting
Well, that's just my take on it. A WS, of course, would likely not agree.


I was an SWS (sorta wayward spouse) by having AEA's (Almost Emotional Affairs) in order to survive decades of a highly dysfunctional marriage that began for the wrong reasons (details linked to my sig line).

I think I would have respected my H if he had made an effort to be upset that I was talking/flirting with other men (I always told him about it but he liked me conversing with other guys so he didn't have to...he probably didn't recognize the flirting back then).

If he'd have given me an ultimatum, it would have been a major step in what I'd been seeking for years: evidence that he actually cared and just wasn't using me (and me him) for sex. blush

Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #269360
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I once had a boss who would daily make pronouncements of the way things were going to be from then on. Each was backed up by that ultimatum of "my way or the highway" at least as implied. To my knowledge he never fired anyone for anything. A lot of people did quit, however.

I think that between an A and recovery a lot of things have to happen. Along the way, only total buy-in by both spouses allows the next piece to be put into place.

Between A and Z are at least 2 dozen other things you might expect along the way.

I think unfaithful spouses often issue their own ultimatums.

A betrayed spouse might say "Either the affair ends or we're done." The unfaithful spouse might respond with "Either you share me with OM/OW or we're done."

"How much is this antique table?"
"One almost like that sold for a million dollars once at auction."
"So how much do you want for this one?"
"A million bucks."
"I was thinking more like 50."

Eventually you either adjust your position (and expectations) or the negotiation is over.

Ever notice that the last thing you try is what works?

Deal breaker ultimatums always work because if the ultimatum does not get what you want, the deal is off. If you are at point A and want to get to Z, asking for all 24 spots between in one step is your right. Each person has to decide what is a deal breaker and do it almost daily. Some might end their marriage over an affair. Some might end it because he lost his job. Some might end it because she gained ten pounds and won't work to take it off. If it is really a deal breaker it makes or breaks the deal.

Does an ultimatum get you what you want?

Sometimes yes...

Sometimes no...

"Is that your final offer?"


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Mark1952] #269394
12/15/12 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark1952


Does an ultimatum get you what you want?

Sometimes yes...

Sometimes no...

"Is that your final offer?"


In our case, my H KNEW without a doubt that it was my final offer which IMVHO, is the only reason it worked (and is still working) for us.


Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #269398
12/15/12 08:44 PM
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That's sort of my point, Acey.

When it is a deal breaker sort of ultimatum, the choice gets made. The thing is, you have no idea what anyone else might choose and have zero control over how they might respond to the ultimatum.

It isn't whether or not the ultimatum got delivered that made success happen but rather that you were able to get past the deal breaker conditions together by working together.

An effective ultimatum is where you say "I will invest this much and nothing more." It always results in a solution but only as long as YOU have drawn the line where it really belongs for your own situation. Drawing the line in the sand and then stepping back to draw it again means it wasn't really a deal breaker ultimatum at all and you are still trying to negotiate.

"How much?"
"A million dollars."
"I was thinking more like 50."

"How about a half million?"
"How about I go find someone who actually wants to sell one?"

"I have to get at least a quarter million to feel good about selling it."
"Good luck with that. B'bye..."

Who delivered an ultimatum?
Whose ultimatum was successful?


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Mark1952] #269400
12/15/12 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark1952

"Good luck with that. B'bye..."

Who delivered an ultimatum?
Whose ultimatum was successful?


Whose was successful? In my mind, it was the "B'bye guy" if in fact that was the end of story.

Many times, however, the "half-million guy" caves once the line in the sand is revealed.

As far as my ultimatum on D-Day #4, I was set in stone, done, caputski (sp?) until I remembered I had called the frail family friend and promised to visit on our trip I was threatening to cancel in order to use the 10-day vacation to get the house ready for sale.

I caved and said I'd add 10 days to the ultimatum and it still worked. That's an unusual twist in the negotiations, though. And that 10-day getaway provided what was needed to give W?H a chance to show he was serious (and I got to visit the friend). As an unintended consequence, the tournament has since become an annual event in our lives, in spite of having to overcome initial PTSD triggers related to it being intertwined with D-Day #4.

Last edited by Ace; 12/15/12 09:04 PM. Reason: Noted that with this post my post-count ends in a multiple of 5 and I need to get going on Christmas stuff. "B'bye" for now!
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #269403
12/15/12 10:04 PM
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If the goal was to buy the antique table, ending the negotiation and not buying it was not successful.

If the goal was to sell that antique table, then stonewalling to get more money wasn't successful either.

If neither of you ends up with what you wanted from the deal, did either of you having clear boundaries about what you were willing to give/take accomplish what you set out to do?

I think both the buyer and the seller issued what they believed were clear ultimatums. One was a single offer. The other was a moving target.

Neither of them got what they actually wanted.

One left the negotiation assuming no further negotiation would lead to what he wanted from the deal. The other was left because he was demanding something the other was not willing to pay.
Two firmly entrenched positions, with no room for compromise or even one position without possible compromise can end in the end of negotiations and no agreement. That's because it isn't really a negotiations but a "take it or leave it" proposition.

"Would you like to buy this?"
"How much do you want for it?"
^^^Negotiation^^^

"The price is on it, eh?"
^^^Statement of position^^^

"Would you take half of that?"
"No."
^^^End of negotiation?

"Would you take 75% of that?"
^^^Beginning of new negotiation^^^

We get what we accept.
We give what we feel it is worth.

Want more? Demonstrate greater value or sweeten the deal.

Not willing to buy at any price? You can always win. Stick around and keep trying to negotiate? You end up buying something at some price.

That's the point of the close in sales.

"Isn't this exactly what you want?"

If you answer yes, you are buying it.

"Tot even close."
End of deal? Maybe...

"What would you want?"

If you answer, you are still buying.

As a seller, the deal breaker belongs to you as long as you keep selling.

As a buyer, the deal breaker only belongs to you as long as you are willing to walk away and end negotiations.

You were certain that you were done...

Unless...>>>Further possible negotiation opening.

He sweetened the offer.

You negotiated for an even better deal.

He sweetened it again.

You bought.

You got what you wanted and he got what he wanted.

Who won?



mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Mark1952] #269415
12/15/12 10:43 PM
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"Give me X or I am outa here."

Who has the power?

"Would you take X-Y?"

Now who has the power?

"I'll only accept X."

Now who is in control?

"Will you take x+z?"<<<Note lower case x instead of upper case X

Whoever makes the most recent offer has given up their power to determine the final outcome.

When you draw that line in the sand beyond which you are unwilling to go for any reason, the outcome is entirely in the hands of the person you made the offer to. Your power is only to get all or nothing. They will decide what you will get from them.

The power to determine the minimum you will take rests with the seller.

The power to give it remains with the buyer.

A real ultimatum turns the transaction into a vending machine.

3 dollars for a bottle of water?

I don't think so...

Power to the buyer.

When you get thirsty enough, three dollars is cheap.

Power goes back to the seller.

Create a market and then raise the price.
Start with a high price and no buyers, your days are numbered as a vendor. (Unless you have a government contract that guarantees a profit whether you sell anything or not)





mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Mark1952] #269420
12/15/12 11:18 PM
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How can I get that government contract for my marriage? grin


*Disclaimer* Everything I say is IMO. Not an expert by a long shot. smile

Me: W 27
H: 27
S:2
M: 4
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: indieana] #269807
12/17/12 11:17 PM
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Deal breaker, I think of a jawbreaker cracking my tooth, it all sounds like a huge OUCH no matter how you look at it.

...............

Dots in sand

Each dot is NOT a dealbreaker, but some action that a person says if this happens again that is it, many dots can be put down and many dots can be tagged, the dot keeper gets hurt each time their dots are tagged, it is an "your it" moment, each and every time.

Sort of like limited contact, a bad idea to do a line in sand with dots, a bad idea to put points in your life out there to be tagged by a spouse in an affair.

What I am saying is, keep the deal that is the real breaker to yourself, don't state it, and if it is crossed, you have your answer.

What is the "real" deal breaker? Figure it out, keep it to yourself, you have your answer when it is breached.

Last edited by Tinkerbell; 12/17/12 11:21 PM.
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #269811
12/17/12 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Originally Posted By: right here waiting
Well, that's just my take on it. A WS, of course, would likely not agree.


I was an SWS (sorta wayward spouse) by having AEA's (Almost Emotional Affairs) in order to survive decades of a highly dysfunctional marriage that began for the wrong reasons (details linked to my sig line).


Do you think it is fair to say that you were in decades of a dysfunctional marriage when you were blatently flirting to "survive"

. flirted in front of me too, for years, it tore me apart, I got snickers when I mentioned it hurt me.

Why would you respect your h for laying down the law on this, why is it up to your h to stop you from flirting? He would have no control over your actions. I don't feel it is fair you are blaming him for not stopping you, and also you added to the dysfunction by flirting and not respecting him or your own marriage yourself don't you think?

It is almost like what they way a wayward does finding reasons to blame the betrayed, so that it is alright to cheat. I feel you may have hurt your h for many years flirting in front of him.

I see you saying it is your h fault for not stopping you, since he let you flirt you didn't think he was a man.


Last edited by Tinkerbell; 12/17/12 11:31 PM.
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: ] #269943
12/18/12 05:37 PM
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Mort Fertel's article on why one needs to be careful with Ultimatums.

Thought I'd post this here even if I don't have time to elaborate....and now I see that Tink has posted. Got some Christmas stuff to do today (my day off) but I will reply, Tink as you make some intriguing points.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #270013
12/18/12 09:11 PM
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I am not trying to be mean, I just thought, wow when . was flirting I never thought maybe he may have been waiting for me to totally put my foot down....

Good luck, the traffic and everything is getting crowded out there!

Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: ] #270023
12/18/12 09:35 PM
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Hey Tink,

Checking in while having lunch but thought I'd ask. Have you read my sordid story on my blog (linked to my sig line) or recovery thread? It may help you understand my skewed perspective on why I felt "entitled to flirt" and how I used it to survive.

After telling H we needed MC "or else" (but getting tired of always taking the lead), I guess I thought I had given my H what might be considered a "soft ultimatum" if there is such a thing. Y'know, when you say something "or else" but you don't have the guts to follow through on the "or else" part? That's why I waited for him to cheat....that way it would all be on him and I could finally justify dumping him.

Our DS 20-something, however, had other ideas. (Details in blog.)

Thanks for your comments and there is no way I think you're trying to be mean. I fact, I'm glad you asked.

Ace

Last edited by Ace; 12/18/12 09:38 PM. Reason: add link to recovery thread "Acey's Missing Pieces."

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #270134
12/19/12 05:19 AM
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No I haven't read your sordid story....will look. Your thoughts did make me think more deeply about my own thing..

Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: ] #270479
12/20/12 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tinkerbell
Your thoughts did make me think more deeply about my own thing..


Looking forward to hearing more. What is YOU OWN THING and how did my thoughts make you thing more deeply about it/them?

Also, might your issuing (or NOT issuing) an ultimatum have made a difference in "your own thing" and how the results played out?


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #270578
12/20/12 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark
You were certain that you were done...

Unless...>>>Further possible negotiation opening.

He sweetened the offer.

You negotiated for an even better deal.

He sweetened it again.

You bought.

You got what you wanted and he got what he wanted.


Then I guess my Plan B wasn't an ultimatum. I guess we both got too tired from the whole thing to figure out how to sweeten the deal for the other.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: NewEveryDay] #270950
12/22/12 01:14 AM
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Mort on ultimatums.

Originally Posted By: Mort Fertel
Is your spouse having an AFFAIR, hooked on PORN, addicted to DRUGS or ALCOHOL, a WORKAHOLIC, too emotionally close to an OPPOSITE SEX FRIEND, or OBSESSIVE about a hobby or activity?

-snip-

If you want to be able to say I saved my marriage, do NOT give your spouse an ultimatum. It will NOT work. Let me explain why. And let me explain how YOU CAN get your spouse to end their affair or stop their addictive or obsessive behavior.

-snip-

First, you eliminate your spouse's desire for their destructive behavior. You take the wind right out of its sail. You cut it off at its source. They don't need it anymore. There's no more hole to fill. YOU filled it!

Second, you offer your spouse a permanent filling for a hole that's been insatiable probably since their childhood. (Your spouse's destructive behaviors can probably be traced back to a disconnected relationship they had with their mother or father). And their DESIRE for your connection, a REAL and LASTING filling of that hole, will trump any momentary interest in seductive pleasures.


So after you throw out his beer, computer, call his boss to get him fired, destroyed his golf clubs and castrated him, you suppose to fill the void because it is your RESPONSIBILITY?

He probably had a rough childhood and needs to be properly fixed.


Who wants to live with a psychological tyrant who would do that to you rather than say: "Honey, I love you but your preoccupation with other things which I do not consider healthy for our marriage, make me feel unsafe. When you are ready to talk about it, please let me know. Meanwhile I will move in with my mom."

???







"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: pookie69] #330111
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Not sure if you're around or not, Pookie, but I like your last line about "moving in with your mom."

Sorry I didn't answer your post in a more timely manner.

Does anyone else have thoughts on deal-breaker ultimatums?

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #330115
01/08/14 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Not sure if you're around or not, Pookie, but I like your last line about "moving in with your mom."

Sorry I didn't answer your post in a more timely manner.

Does anyone else have thoughts on deal-breaker ultimatums?

Ace


I imagine he reads.

The ultimatum is directed towards what deal?

I thought our deal was that he would love, honor and cherish me -- or, alternatively, although technically not covered in the vows, not ignore, abandon and dismiss me -- and I would in turn do the same.

Life is full of disappointments.

I suppose I could have thrown down the gauntlet and given an ultimatum except it would have been hollow since I would never have executed because of my kids.

One of the things that intrigues me about this dynamic is that the faithful spouse has a specific behavior that they can quite rightfully target as having to end: no contact is, for me, close to a religious tenet.

On the other hand, the unfaithful spouse may have a less specific, but equally damaging (GET OVER IT -- OTHER STUFF MATTERS TOO) set of behaviors that likewise need to be changed.

I have no idea what real life is like, and that is, I hope, the most depressing thing I write in 2014, but in the forum world, that list is routinely and relentlessly put under the heading of "blame shifting" or "justifying" or whatever.

The problem is that, for me, I refuse to blame shift or justify and whatever, and so here I sit 3 1/2 years later having never articulated my issues aside from "stop getting so mad at everything all the time."

I'm stubborn that way.

I refuse to give even a whisper of a hint of a suggestion of a passing thought that my affair had one thing to do with my husband.

And y'all like that. You do. Admit it.

Except it isn't true, but honesty only goes so far in this dynamic. Honesty is all well and good for the faithful spouse -- hell, unload all you like and if your spouse isn't here, feel free to unload on the substitute poster here --until the unfaithful spouse is honest about what they expect from the marriage and then honesty? Inexplicably morphs into blame shifting, blah blah blah blah.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 01/08/14 06:57 AM.

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Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #330129
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey

The ultimatum is directed towards what deal?


Originally Posted By: Ace
How do you define an "ultimatum" with respect to its affect (or lack of it) in dealing with infidelity?

Do you have personal experiences with such and if so, what did you do? (Or what did your spouse do to you?)

Did it work (have an impact on ending infidelity)?

If so, why do you think it worked?

If not, why not?


Hi LdG,

Y'know, my disconnected state (that could have led me to an A) had everything to do with me, my choices, and how I reacted to my H's actions or lack of them. In that respect, it did have a little to do with my H. I have to state that in order to be consistent now because I have to give my H's actions credit for our improved state of our M.

If I'm gonna give him some of the blame, I must give him some (or a lot) of the credit. Specifically I'm referring to the disjointed condition of our M for the first 3 decades, not the A itself.

I just thought of that after reading your post. Thanks. I will reply more later about what deals might be broken by an ultimatum.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Ace] #330142
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I essentially gave my H an ultimatum many years before our divorce - I was going to have children with him or I was going to have a divorce. He never forgave me for it, and he never understood why that was a deal-breaker for me. When he weighed that resentment against the other lovebusters I did, there just wasn't enough for him to stay connected to me.

I will readily admit I was relatively complaisant in my first marriage. I did not take his vague complaints seriously. I did not understand his perspective, and I didn't try that hard either. I wasn't proactively trying to learn and grow and be a better me. I was in a power struggle. Would an ultimatum have made a difference if he had smacked one down on me? It depends...I hope I would have been motivated to grow if he had been able to make me understand exactly what was bothering him (which I think would have required him to do a lot more introspection than he wanted to do). But I don't know if I would have been able to get out of the "but, but, you do THIS" mentality with what I knew then. It took him actually leaving for me to wake up and change and grow.


Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

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http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: CajunRose] #330147
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^^^

I like this explanation, CR.
It makes so much sense to me, a real eye-opener.
Thank you.

Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: TC_Manhattan] #330382
01/10/14 02:25 AM
01/10/14 02:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
My affair was my ultimatum.

I wanted to be not invisible. I wanted to matter, to be included, to be seen.

Every time I try to be visible he gets mad. "You dare think this every other week marriage is hard on YOU. It is WAY harder on me."

Well, yea it is, but that doesn't mean that it isn't hard on me. For God's sake, we haven't lived in the same city since 2006 and I'm quite certain he's had some hook ups in there.

I don't care and I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW.

His anger is very, very powerful. Whatever the issue, in the end we all capitulate to its power.

I can only dimly remember at this point, but when I was with the Guy, I was never scared.

My husband is an angry man. His father is an angry man.

I don't actually want to improve my relationship with my husband anymore. I want to figure out a way to survive and thrive in the face of his anger and judgement.

Wow -- it is a huge relief to say that.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: LadyGrey] #330384
01/10/14 02:30 AM
01/10/14 02:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 13,424
midwest
Miranda Offline
Global Moderator
Miranda  Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 13,424
midwest
What if the way to do that is for his anger and judgment to no longer matter?


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** Deal Breaker Ultimatums...Do they work? *** [Re: Miranda] #330393
01/10/14 03:10 AM
01/10/14 03:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Miranda
What if the way to do that is for his anger and judgment to no longer matter?


What does that look like, exactly?


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
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