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*** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** #331749
01/18/14 01:18 PM
01/18/14 01:18 PM
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I wish I'd read this article about how to retire early ---35 years early when we first got married.

I am convinced (and I think studies prove) that many marital conflicts occur due to financial deficits (or stress related to financial conflicts regardless of one's portfolio value). Now that we are approaching retirement age these concepts are especially important for our marriage.

I like this article because the blogger and his wife started saving monthly with no real plan in mind until their savings started accumulating passive income. They researched, did the math, created a vision for what they wanted to do with their time if they retired early and went for it. Both retired in their early 30's, had a baby and now both are stay-at-home parents (their son is currently 8). They seem to be enjoying their lives immensely and want to help others do the same. (Cynically, one could accuse them of "helping others for a fee".....I didn't read his blog but it looks like that might be an option...maybe not.)

Regardless, the concepts shared in this 2 page MarketWatch article would have helped me in my arguments with my H when I wanted to live off his income and save mine pre-kids so I could be a SAHM and quit working while living within our means before the kids were born. We didn't do it then (and paid the price) but we are doing it now as we prepare for retirement 40-something years later.

Have you or your spouse considered your retirement plans? This article shows why it's NEVER too early to start planning for it. Hopefully, for others, it's never too late.

What do you think? If you or your spouse have retired successfully, please share how you did it as well as how the process affected your marriage.

Thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #332031
01/21/14 02:55 PM
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Found this article from Forbes by Janet Novack with a link to a life expectancy calculator. Its subject is "life expectancy and retirement planning".

While I didn't access the life expectancy calculator portion, I found the concepts intriguing. I don't necessarily agree with the entire article but some may benefit even if some relevant aspects may not be included.


Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #332066
01/21/14 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Found this article from Forbes by Janet Novack with a link to a life expectancy calculator. Its subject is "life expectancy and retirement planning".

While I didn't access the life expectancy calculator portion, I found the concepts intriguing. I don't necessarily agree with the entire article but some may benefit even if some relevant aspects may not be included.


I tried it.

Here were my results

Your calculated life expectancy is 89 years.

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #332071
01/21/14 06:05 PM
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Well, well.....I just took the life expectancy quiz, and it
seems that their algorithm predicts that NG should stick around
ANOTHER 26 YEARS!

angel Oh! The humanity....
devil I'll wait!

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: NeverGuessed] #332073
01/21/14 06:29 PM
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I got a 92. Thy gave me a road map to 100 and the biggest issue was losing weight. Story of my life. I've had a bunch of relatives live to late 90's.


Chrysalis
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Chrysalis] #332203
01/22/14 12:52 PM
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...a bunch of relatives live to late 90's...

Historically, my family would be the flip-side of that characteristic. Right now, I am the longest-lived of any of my paternal direct-line males, going back at least five generations.

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: NeverGuessed] #332212
01/22/14 01:53 PM
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You know what they say, NG...only the good die young... You're too ornery to die!


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Miranda] #332272
01/22/14 06:13 PM
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I have 21 years left O.O

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Tinker] #332274
01/22/14 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Princessdiehard
I have 21 years left O.O


Get ornery PrincessD, that seems to extend things out quite a ways from my observations.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Miranda] #332303
01/22/14 09:08 PM
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It says I will live until 92, and considering one grandmother lived until 90, and the other is 88 and still in relatively good health, I think that is a reasonable expectation.

Financial security is very important to me, an in both of my marriages, I made sure before the wedding that we were financially compatible - we have broadly similar financial goals. In both cases, we lived on the higher salary and saved the other.

My H is in a physically demanding job, which limits the number of years he will be able to work at that level. We have a financial plan in place that should allow us to have the house paid off before he is 55 (and fingers crossed, all the kids will be out of college by then).

Since we are so far from retirement, we've also put measures in place to protect us if something were to happen now - life insurance for each of us, long-term disability, etc.

I could probably live on a great deal less than what we currently spend, but I'm comfortable with our plan (and so is my H), so I don't feel the need to do so.


Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

About me

You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #332322
01/22/14 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
I wish I'd read this article about how to retire early ---35 years early when we first got married.

I am convinced (and I think studies prove) that many marital conflicts occur due to financial deficits (or stress related to financial conflicts regardless of one's portfolio value). Now that we are approaching retirement age these concepts are especially important for our marriage.

I like this article because the blogger and his wife started saving monthly with no real plan in mind until their savings started accumulating passive income. They researched, did the math, created a vision for what they wanted to do with their time if they retired early and went for it. Both retired in their early 30's, had a baby and now both are stay-at-home parents (their son is currently 8). They seem to be enjoying their lives immensely and want to help others do the same. (Cynically, one could accuse them of "helping others for a fee".....I didn't read his blog but it looks like that might be an option...maybe not.)

Regardless, the concepts shared in this 2 page MarketWatch article would have helped me in my arguments with my H when I wanted to live off his income and save mine pre-kids so I could be a SAHM and quit working while living within our means before the kids were born.

Thanks,
Ace


I liked this article. Thanks. I had never heard of Mr. Money Mustache. I also followed the link about his family's spending in 2013 and then read the comments. They were most interesting and filled with helpful ideas about implementation of his not necessarily novel ideas.

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Rainshine] #332324
01/22/14 10:13 PM
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And btw... putting articles with factual information in front of my spouse would never have worked due to passive aggressive tendencies.

It seems like in order to follow ANY plan, financial or otherwise, both people need to know how to work together well to solve your differences.

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Rainshine] #333428
01/31/14 01:53 PM
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Soooo sorry I forgot about this thread. blushing

Originally Posted By: Rainshine
And btw... putting articles with factual information in front of my spouse would never have worked due to passive aggressive tendencies.

It seems like in order to follow ANY plan, financial or otherwise, both people need to know how to work together well to solve your differences.


Thanks for all the comments. You're right, Rainshine. They say it takes two to tangle but like you I think it also takes two to work together and effectively find solutions.

I truly wish all could have spouses like mine: Once I gave up trying and demonstrated that I. Was. Done, he decided he wanted to change, which helped me change, too. It was a snowball effect :::uphill::: with positive results.

What worked for me was to concentrate on changing my own passive aggressiveness (which I didn't know I had until I sought help with changing my spouse.) The person who helped me most was one of the founders of MA and she was brutally honest.

Some of the concepts I learned that helped us relate better regarding all aspects of our marriage were these:

* Recognize my own truth; realize it may not be the same as my spouse's truth.

* Quit trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

* Concentrate instead on being the best square peg I can be.

* If the round hole starts to square and shows signs of fitting, explore ways to round the edges of my square peg.

* Set boundaries and continue process for as long as I can tolerate the differences.

* Recognize when it's time to end the process, knowing I gave it the best effort I had.

This was not only related to our marriage but our financial issues as well.

For instance, our financial adviser gave us a "risk tolerance test" several years ago when we sought help with retirement planning. He said our scores showed the largest expanse of toleration levels that he'd ever seen in his decades of giving the test. On a scale of 1 to 100 (low to high) I was about a 5 and my H was around 80. Remember, I'm highly suspicious, extremely paranoid and I worry too much. blush

After the adviser told H that I was a good balance for him (and that guys like him often fall off the deep end quickly by taking too much risk) H started showing signs of appreciation for my cautious perspective. I, then, started telling myself that "I Am Adventurous" and started mentally preparing myself to increase my tolerance for financial risk.

We're still miles apart but we work together, discussing our options and finding what works for both of us.

Has anyone else taken a financial risk tolerance test alone or with a spouse?



We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #348597
05/25/14 01:28 PM
05/25/14 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Has anyone else taken a financial risk tolerance test alone or with a spouse?


To offset the 4 month long crickets choir after that question, I offer another apology for neglecting this thread.

Sorry. blushing

I'm also parking this Yahoo Finance article link here for possible discussion:

"5 "musts" for a successful "take-off" into retirement (in 5 years)

Off the top of my head after skimming Kelly Campbell's article, the main points are:

1. Set a budget and practice living by it before you forfeit your regular paycheck.

2. Identify and research all of your income sources and all related implications.

3. Take advantage of your company's matching contributions, especially if there is a "catch-up" option.

4. Research your company Healthcare options to see if it can continue with coverage after you retire and if so, how much it will cost.

5. Eliminate all debt, possibly even your mortgage payment (depending on how low your interest payment is).

The article refers to the 5 years prior to potential retirement as the "retirement red zone" but I'd like to think of it as a "reFirement green zone."

Thoughts?

Ace

Last edited by Ace; 05/25/14 01:33 PM. Reason: fix link

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #348613
05/25/14 04:31 PM
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I've never even heard of a "financial tolerance test," but I've known for years that H and I are not terribly far apart on that score. We have always been careful with money, having started out very young, with very little. He was more cautious than I, while I "loosened" him up a bit. A good balance, overall.

We are now both retired and finding things easier than either of us expected. I attribute that to five things:

1. H staying at two of his companies long enough to qualify for pensions, and both of us waiting till full retirement age to collect Social Security;
2. His savvy in investing and saving over the years (and my acquiescence) smile
3. My working throughout most of the marriage, so we both built up 401(k)s;
4. 45 years of sensible decisions, including paying off all debt (except small remaining mortgage);
5. No small measure of good luck, for which we are grateful.

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: right here waiting] #348696
05/26/14 09:51 PM
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RHW,
The risk/reward balance is something we deal with every day, subconsciously, but not always with money.

Making this easy:

If I offer you this deal:

a) I will hand you a $10 bill right now, or
b) on the roll of a six-sided die, you will get $60 if a "6" comes up, or $0 for any other result

the completely rational investor would have no preference.

But.....change the scale; put an "M" behind each payout figure. Suddenly the question becomes more difficult, right? $1M is a nice sum of money to have, and a awful thing to regret throwing away on the roll of a die. But $60M is SERIOUS change. What would you do?

The value of money to an individual is not (never has been) a linear measurement. What "risk" one is willing to accept to achieve a certain return varies with the scale of the numbers being bandied about.

"Investment risk tolerance tests" try to frame that proposition for the person taking the test to guide them into investments that they would feel comfortable in.

I have taken them.

Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: NeverGuessed] #348803
05/27/14 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

"Investment risk tolerance tests" try to frame that proposition for the person taking the test to guide them into investments that they would feel comfortable in.

I have taken them.


Thanks for your response, NG.

Here's another article---Five Myths About Retirement by Tom Lauricella published in the Wall Street Journal outlining misconceptions about retirement.

1. Many retire earlier than expected.
2. Employment re-entry is tougher than expected.
3. Purchasing 2nd investment property is a mistake.
4. Medicare doesn't cover what you think.
5. Budgets are (or become) unrealistic.

Thoughts?




Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #348839
05/28/14 04:32 AM
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My take on the bullet-points?

1. Many retire earlier than expected.
Yeah, probably true. Many folks are "retired" by their employers, especially here in the USA as jobs are shifted overseas to avoid domestic taxes and regulations. This likely will accelerate.

2. Employment re-entry is tougher than expected.
"Tougher than expected" is much more palatable than "damn-near impossible"!

3. Purchasing 2nd investment property is a mistake.
Depends on the property purchased and the price paid. Timing is also critical, as personally running a rental property (the only way to turn a profit) is a young person's game.

4. Medicare doesn't cover what you think.
I will not speak to this. I cannot afford the backlash from, and resultant conflict with, my admirers here.

5. Budgets are (or become) unrealistic.
No......most budgets are prepared poorly, usually overly optimistically, by inadequately trained amateurs. This is NOT the level of rigor required:


Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #355132
07/09/14 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ace

To offset the 4 month long crickets choir after that question, I offer another apology for neglecting this thread.

Sorry. blushing



Now I'm also apologizing to NeverGuessed for not acknowledging his thoughtful response and cartoon analogy.

Not sure if you're still around NG but:

Click to reveal..
facepalm SORRY dunno


Here's an article that caught my eye as my H and I plan for our retirement. The most intriguing part is the last point that says "More happily retired people are married than single." (my paraphrase).

Originally Posted By: 7 ways to retire happy
By Mandi Woodruff Yahoo Finance July 8, 2014

When planning for retirement, most people fret over one basic question: How much money will I need to last until I die?
Some experts encourage us to save 10% of each paycheck and pray for the best. Others say we should aim to save eight times our ending salary. Many of us still obsess over hitting that elusive million-dollar mark, despite the fact that fewer than one-third of Americans have managed to cobble together $1,000 for retirement.

In a new book, You Can Retire Sooner Than You Think, Atlanta-based investment advisor Wes Moss, offers an alternative to the traditional line of thinking. Rather than focus on a dollar amount to reach for, Moss decided to figure out what retirees needed to be truly happy in retirement.

I wanted to go beyond simple income numbers, Moss says. I wondered what it really takes to get somebody to a point where they truly feel they have a cushion and they are also enjoying life.

In 2012, Moss conducted an online survey of more than 1,200 workers who had either already retired or were fewer than 10 years away from retirement. He asked them questions about what type of cars they drove, where they shopped, how much their homes were worth, and, of course, how much they had saved for retirement. But he also asked about their passion projects, how often they went on vacation, what types of volunteering they enjoyed, whether or not they were satisfied with their lives, and how much time they put into their retirement planning before calling it quits. (Moss did not ask participants about overall debt levels like student loans and credit cards, but did include questions about their mortgage debt).
What he found was that more money doesnt equate to more happiness. The happiest retirees didnt all drive BMWs or take 12 European cruises a year, either.
Heres what it takes to be a happy retiree:

1. Retirees happiness hit a wall once they reach $500,000 in savings.
The financial barrier separating an unhappy retiree from a happy retiree seemed to be right around the $500,000 mark, Moss found. In his research, happiness levels skyrocketed from retirees who had saved $100,000 and those with $500,000. But after hitting that half-million-dollar milestone, happiness levels plateaued even as net worth rose. The same plateau effect appeared when Moss asked retirees how much they spent each month. On average, unhappy retirees spent less than $3,000 a month. Happiness increased by 25% between the unhappy group and those who said they were moderately happy and spent about $4,000 a month. But after that, there was only a 6% increase in happiness levels between moderately happy retirees and extremely happy retirees, who spent more than $4,500 a month.
View gallery

2. Happy retirees fill their time with three to four core pursuits.
Moss jokingly defines core pursuits as hobbies on steroids the kinds of activities that fill retirees time when they are no longer working 9 to 5. On average, happy retirees participated in almost twice as many core pursuits than their unhappy counterparts 3.6 vs. 1.9. Happy retirees were also more likely to pick core pursuits that were socially engaging, such as volunteering with nonprofits and sports.

3. Happy retirees pay off their mortgage early.
In his research, Moss found happy retirees were nearly four times more likely than unhappy retirees to be close to paying off their mortgage. More than one-third of happy retirees will have their mortgage paid off within eight years, compared to less than one-quarter of unhappy retirees. Nearly 30% of happy retirees said their mortgage payoff date is less than five years off, compared to just 5.6% of the unhappy sect. Any retiree whos managed to pay off their mortgage debt should be thrilled more seniors today are carrying mortgage debt in retirement than ever before.
To me, this was kind of a real eye opener, Moss says. You hear all day long that there is no reason to pay off a mortgage early and you can make a great economic case for that. But my research shows the elimination of mortgage is really important, not just financially but also psychologically. Happy retirees werent all living in McMansions either the average value of their homes was $355,000 not far above the national average of $319,200. Unhappy retirees homes were worth $273,000 on average.

4. Happy retirees have at least two to three sources of income in retirement.
On average, the happiest retirees reported having between two and three different source of income the most commonly cited income sources were Social Security, investment income, real estate income, a pension, and part-time work while unhappy retirees had between one and two. Im a huge believer in getting as many tributaries of income flowing into that main retirement income stream as possible, Moss says.
6. Happy retirees fill their time with three to four core pursuits.
Moss jokingly defines core pursuits as hobbies on steroids the kinds of activities that fill retirees time when they are no longer working 9 to 5. On average, happy retirees participated in almost twice as many core pursuits than their unhappy counterparts 3.6 vs. 1.9. Happy retirees were also more likely to pick core pursuits that were socially engaging, such as volunteering with nonprofits and sports.

5. Happy retirees are masters of the middle."
On average, happy retirees live off of just over $53,000 a year not too far off the national household income of $51,000.
Moss also found that they arent overly interested in luxury brands. The unhappiest were more likely to drive a BMW, while happy retirees preferred Lexus. Moss calculated that over five years, owning a Lexus cost 16% less than a BMW. Happy retirees shopping tastes were also relatively modest, with the majority saying they preferred middle-of-the-road department stores, like Kohl's and Macys over Neiman Marcus or Saks. Theyre masters of the middle, Moss says. They arent super, uber frugal, but they arent shopping at thrift stores either.

6. Happy retirees spent at least five hours a year planning for retirement.
Unsurprisingly, the happiest retirees were the ones who planned well for their golden years, spending at least five hours a year preparing. Nearly half (44%) of unhappy retirees said they werent satisfied with how much thought they put into retirement. Five hours a year may not seem like much (Moss says most happy retirees spent more than that), but once youve set up a solid financial planning framework, the truly time-consuming part is basically over. From that point on, its all about checking in with your goals and maintaining your strategy. Retirement planning is a long-term proposition, Moss says. It takes a couple of weekends a year to stay on track. You can gain a lot of grown by maintaining that garden.

7. Happy retirees are more likely to be married.
As common as divorce is in the U.S. today, the overwhelming majority of happy retirees were married (76%) and only 9% were divorced. Less than half of unhappy retirees were married, while one-quarter were divorced, Moss found. This is right on par with what past research has shown about levels of satisfaction in married and unmarried people over the long term, married couples are much happier. Its fairly obvious why two may be better than one in this scenario dual incomes can make a huge difference in a couples financial outlook. On the flip side, divorce not only reduces both parties income but is also expensive to go through.



Thoughts?

I promise I will respond quicker next time someone posts here.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #358074
07/30/14 12:22 AM
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The key is to agree to live below your means for a while, in order to have additional means later. Any couple that can reach agreement on that is likely to (i) stay married and (ii) be happy in retirement. If you cannot both get on board with that, you are more likely to end up (i) divorced and (ii) unhappy in retirement.

So the key is to marry young, and either reach agreement quickly on living below your means or divorce quickly and find someone else who will agree to be prudent.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: holdingontoit] #358085
07/30/14 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
The key is to agree to live below your means for a while, in order to have additional means later. Any couple that can reach agreement on that is likely to (i) stay married and (ii) be happy in retirement. If you cannot both get on board with that, you are more likely to end up (i) divorced and (ii) unhappy in retirement.

So the key is to marry young, and either reach agreement quickly on living below your means or divorce quickly and find someone else who will agree to be prudent.


Hi Hold,

Great insights. I think you're right but not many people even consider what "living within one's means" might entail before they get married.

A missing component, in my opinion, is the ability to share a passion for "forever after" with those one dates.

During a college class, we were partnered up to discuss "what do you see yourself doing in retirement?"

My classmate said he wanted to retire in Florida so he could play baseball year round.

I thought to myself, good thing I'm not attracted to this guy because I'd never move to Florida since I hate the threat of hurricanes.

I didn't know what I wanted but I knew one thing I did not want.

Hopefully, by the process of elimination, spouses can find something about which to be passionate for the duration....together.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #358109
07/30/14 12:57 PM
07/30/14 12:57 PM
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midwest
Miranda Offline
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Miranda  Offline
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The more I think about it, the more I plan to never retire.

Even with my condition, I just can't stand the idea of not working.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Miranda] #358138
07/30/14 02:55 PM
07/30/14 02:55 PM
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holdingontoit Offline
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holdingontoit  Offline
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Ace: My point was mostly about the ability to agree on major goals and to work together to achieve those goals. I think if you can work through financial decisions together, you are more likely to stay married and be happy. If you work well together, you can work together to find activities you both enjoy. Or you can work together to find ways to appreciate the other person's passion. The problem is not being able to agree on goals and not being able to work together.

Mrs. Hold and I work together very poorly (I know, shocking). If she wants me to do something, I want her to tell me what it is and then leave me alone to do it. If she tries to "help" me, I find the process both less enjoyable and less productive. We have very different methods of working, and simply rub each other the wrong way while trying to accomplish a task.

I imagine that couples who enjoy working together, and who are successful (the whole is more than the sum of the parts) are more likely to reach their financial goals and to enjoy retirement together. Even if they do not share the same passions.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Ace] #358218
07/30/14 08:53 PM
07/30/14 08:53 PM
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PEEKSKILL NY
Rich57 Offline
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Rich57  Offline
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Removed by user

Last edited by Rich57; 07/31/14 12:23 PM.
Re: *** RETIREMENT & Marriage - early? late? never? *** [Re: Rich57] #358339
07/31/14 01:47 PM
07/31/14 01:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,285
PEEKSKILL NY
Rich57 Offline
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Rich57  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,285
PEEKSKILL NY
I am going to make this suggestion to this thread instead.

Anyone thinking that they may retire in the US should create an account on this website

http://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/

Then you can play with different scenarios and see how much you will collect at different ages.

Has anyone else done this?

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