My first nomination goes to....



original post here

You beat me to it!!!!....

Not2fun

You're going to make me blush.

I have a feeling you're going to be "blushing" often......

Just saw your background......Welcome!!!!

Not2fun

Ps....sometimes I sign with "Not" and sometimes "Not2fun"......

Phil McGraw has some good points to make :

http://drphil.com/shows/video/?XMLPath=%2Fvideo.xml%2F%3FShowID%3D1471%26Type%3DUncensored

I like Phil McGraw. He's a person who obviously has a time perspective that is highly future positive, and that's also why he has trouble reaching people who are not highly future positive.

Oprah once asked him to interupt his vacation to come and help her and some friends solve a 'crisis' they were having, so he flew half-way across the country on her dime and took a taxi to her home. When he arrived, Oprah was with her friends, and she asked, "Dr. Phil, we've been up all night, and we just can't figure it out. Why are we fat?".

Phil answered, "You had me fly out here for that? You're fat because you want to be fat. You don't have to eat jelly donuts, but you do", he said pointing to a box of jelly donuts on the table.

Oprah replied, "No. We don't want to be fat. We hate it".

Dr. Phil then countered, "You want to be fat, and that's why you make the food choices you make. If you didn't want to be fat, you would make different choices".



Cracks me up.

Yup... he has an odd way of putting things, and i think you need to have a certain degree of intelligence to get what he's saying, but the model he uses is pretty damn good.

I think his advice on ths subject is spot on as well.

Dating while married, not separated, and both parties trying to actively reconcile by doing counselling together to me is wrong.

But what about dating when the other party has filed already and you are separated and the D is going through? What do you guys think?

Watch the phil mcgraw.. that's what I think...

For me, it depends. If I'm still hoping to reconcile, even after divorce has been filed, then I need to resolve my inner attachment before I start dating so that I can be open to finding the best partner available instead of pining for the one I lost. If I'm in those shoes (and others might be different), it's highly likely that I'm going to end up letting my feelings of loneliness or nostalgia close off better options than I might be considering otherwise. Not to mention, if I'm pining for an old partner while dating a new one, that's hardly fair to the new person. They shouldn't have to compete for my attention when they don't even know they're in a competition. (Any BS will probably recognize that logic.)

If I'm not hoping to reconcile and essentially just waiting for the paperwork to churn through the courts, then I still need to assess my level of healthiness to determine whether or not I'm ready to date, and keep in mind that folks willing to date people who are still legally/financially entangled with others probably have their own issues that you might not want to deal with. (Again, there are a ton of exceptions here for divorces that drag out for years...but if I'm in the dating pool, at some point I start asking myself *why* the divorce has dragged on for years.)

So, I don't tend to look at it as a moral issue so much as an entanglement/complication issue. At all costs, one needs to avoid shooting their new life in the foot just because they don't like being alone after years of marriage. The people I've seen who have had the most success (when starting during separation or afterwards) where the ones who realized that their dating skillz were 20 years old and they should start by going out as a single person with groups of friends and recalling what it was like to be on the market, meet new people, etc., rather than jumping straight into the world of online dating, six dates with six different partners a week, etc.

Most people I've ever known who ended up divorced went through what I think of as the "Six Month Self-Destruct Phase" where they're so invested in re-inventing themselves as a single person they engage in a host of out-of-character behaviors like drinking, smoking, casual sex, etc. And once it's petered out, they go back to being exactly the same sort of person they were before the divorce, just without a spouse. I think I understand the psychological need to recreate/find themselves when the role by which they've defined themselves has been shorn away, but it's equally important to be aware that it's happening, that one is susceptible to it, and find ways to avoid getting saddled with long term consequences of decisions made during a period of emotional upheaval.

There are just so many factors that go into a question like "When is it okay to date?" The point in the divorce proceedings is just one of them, and I don't think there are blanket answers.

In my opinion, the question that needs to come first is simply "How will doing this - dating, dating now, whatever - help me achieve the best possible life I've envisioned for myself?"

I don't think that's foolproof, and we're all going to make mistakes while we figure out whether or not this decision or that decision was really in our best interest, but it's useful to have an overall goal in mind when confronting the smaller questions along the way.

That depends on where you are at emotionally, both in regards to the legal spouse and in regards to your own healing. In reality, those are inextricably tied in most cases.

I dated under those circumstances. I was also in counseling with a clinical psychologist at the time. My situation was quite different from most I've seen.

I was to the point that I was done. I had filed. I was not interested in reconciling under any circumstances whatsoever. Even had he shown up and done everything I'd ever asked from him, I wouldn't have wanted to be with him. I was completely done. We were physically separated. We'd been emotionally separated for years. In every way but legally, we were divorced. I was just waiting on the paperwork.

I had no need for answers. I had no need for arguments. I had no need of apologies, let alone explanations. I had no need for contact whatsoever, and didn't want it. I had no idea where he was living, or what he was doing - and I didn't care. The only time I bothered to have anyone find out was when I needed to serve him with the paperwork.

It's easy to say these things in a situation, but they need to be true. Just wishing that they were true isn't enough. Late at night, as you lie awake in bed, and when you are being honest with yourself...they still need to be true.

I agree w/ Marlowe and AR.

Anyone working a marriage reconciliation plan of any sort, or hoping to reconcile, has no business dating.

If you are done, as in 'stick a fork in it, done' then the next step on the decision tree is to assess your emotional health. If you are feeling strong and stable, and as in AR's situation, basically just waiting on paperwork, then I think it's fine.

Dating someone else is never a very good way to fix a relationship. If you are done, then be DONE. Finish one before beginning another.

I might also point out that you are done when YOU are done and not just because your WAS/WS has said he/she is done.

Friends of mine were divorced for over 10 years and ended up getting married to each other again. He dated a couple of times during that time, and she was engaged for a couple of years before backing out. Neither one was really done and they remained in contact mainly due to their children. Eventually they decided they were better together than apart for various reasons and retied the knot.

When she died, he was finally done...

Mark, your friends' story is why we are still married- we laughed about it months ago and decided to skip the divorce part and weather the storm. We are each others life partners and all other issues aside it would be grossly unfair to whoever we might date post D.

I miss having those kinds of talks with him...we laughed SO much.

OMG. LOL I can't believe she actually asked him to interrupt his vacation. That's what money does to you, I guess!

You know...I think the thing with Dr. Phil is that he cuts to the chase. He cuts out all the psycho babble and lays it on the line. He tells you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.

Alot of people find McGraww annoying.. But that don't mean he's wrong.. lol

If all notions of commitment have been eliminated between you and your spouse, you're physically separated, the divorce is in progress, and especially if they've already gone outside the marriage, then I think dating is absolutely ok. Yes, if you're truly pining, then you should probably resolve that before you start seriously dating. Very casual dating is helpful in that regard though, as it reminds you that there are a lot of great people out there. It's a process.

I don't agree with this continual notion espoused here about responsibility to new dating partners though. Be honest with them, but until a declaration of commitment is made, they ABSOLUTELY should assume they are competing for you, because they are, just as you're competing for them. That's a big part of dating, and the whole point of declaring commitment is to relieve each other of that assumption. IMO, the only truly meaningful declaration of commitment is a proposal. Until then, you're still a free agent.

You need time to process the END of your marriage.. escaping into another relationship does not work.

Why would anyone agree to date someone they KNOW tehy ahve to compete for?

This just sounds like infidleity in a new package to me...

To me, the dating while married though divorcing is an issue of my own personal boundaries and integrity.

I was not married until the DAY I said I do. The day before I married, though I loved and was committed to my DH, then fiance, we were not married. I was not his wife and he was not my husband. Either of us could have walked away before we said I do. But afterwards we were married.

We are married until we aren't anymore, via death or divorce. No matter his actions within the marriage.

I vowed, before my family, before him, and before God that I would love and cherish him, forsaking all others through good times and bad. That vow was not contingent upon his behavior. That vow has nothing to do with him. It has to do with me. My word.

I will honor that vow until we die, or should our marriage tragically end in divorce, until the divorce is final.

I promised through better and worse. Not much can be worse than divorce, than adultery.

My husband's actions cannot dictate whether or not I will uphold my vows. Only my personal integrity determines that. Should my husband chose to violate his vow and act single, though he is married, should have no bearing on my choice to keep that vow.

THAT is why I cannot forsee myself dating if I were to ever be in the process of divorce. I gave my word, til death do us part (or in extreme circumstances, if Divorce is necessary). No action of my husband's can deter me from keeping it.

There is plenty of time for dating, once a divorce is final. I've heard enough 'we changed our minds at the last minute and made it work' to ever believe that just 'feeling' you are done is enough to justify violating that vow.

Marriage is like pregnancy: you can't be a little pregnant, just like you can't be 'almost married'. You can't be unpregnant until you give birth, you can't be not married until you are divorced. I think there is a lot of personal, emotional danger in a married person acting like they are single.

They aren't single.

They are married.

Well said Vibbs..

And to add to that between married and single is a long long road that you transition between. A commitment characterized like Vibs just did above makes it pretty clear marriage to single is something that takes time to transition between.

You don't flip marriage off like a switch.

Until the marriage light is OFF completely you have no business going near anyone else.. steer clear.

Yes, of course I agree you need to process the end of your marriage before getting into another relationship. As I've said many times here though, dating is not a relationship. Also, the emotional process and the legal process may be very far off from each other.

Why would you ever assume you're NOT competing for someone you're dating? Of course you are. Are you assuming they are committed to you from the moment they meet you? The whole point of dating is to determine if you WANT to be committed to each other.

Dating isn't a relationship? lol

There are differing levels of "dating"

But once a couple agrees to be exclusive, then promiscuity stops and the competition ends.

That should be happening well before engagemetn and marriage.

To me the legalities are not what make a marriage, but rather the emotional bond. However, I don't think that bond can truly be broken until you are physically separated, and living totally separate lives. Once the emotional bond is gone, the legal stuff doesn't matter, IMO.

After several years of bad marriage, and two years of separation, I'm not willing to sacrifice any more time on the alter of my dead marriage. Life is too short. I don't even consider reconciliation out of the question, but it's out of my hands, and I'm not putting my life on hold any more. One out of six divorced couples that remarry end up remarrying each other, so obviously many do the "we changed our minds" thing after the legal divorce too. If they dated in between the divorce and the "we changed our minds" moment, did they cheat?

I agree with you that the moment I said "I do", I was bound to a vow. That was not a legal thing for me, but rather a deep personal commitment. Unfortunately, there is no divorce ceremony, there is no way I can declare that to me, the marriage is over. I never considered it even remotely possible. I was dragged here against every fiber of my being, and yet here I am. Marriage is very lopsided that way, and I think that's the reason some rely on that legal divorce to be that final end mark, because there is no other mechanism. The legal stuff is just filing of some papers though. It doesn't mean one thing as to how I feel. To me, I felt divorced when I finally let go of my wife, and moved on with my life.

And to adulterers, they feel divorced before they hop in the sack. Thats how most justify their adultery to themselves.

"The marriage is over."
"I don't love you."

How many times have we heard of a WS uttering these phrases.

Feelings do not justify adultery. If so where does the grey line tip from 'ok' adultery to 'not ok' adultery? Who is the arbiter?

If it's ok for you to determine that the marriage is 'over' because of your feelings, then does not that same logic justify the wayward spouse? They feel the marriage is over, or they wouldn't be with someone else (for the most part).



So basically your vow was for as long as you felt like it. When you no longer feel like it, you absolve yourself of the vow. For you that may be enough. It isn't enough for me. Too much like a typical adulterer's thinking for my taste, and having suffered due to the warped thinking that adultery produces, I'd rather stay as far away from that thinking as possible, even if there is a safe 'grey' area.

I can't base my actions solely on my feelings. Feelings are fickle. They change, and the worst part about that is that we perceive them to be permanent. We think the way we feel now is how we will always feel, when that is rarely the case. I don't believe my feelings are a safe barometer against which I can justify breaking a vow I have made.

I can maybe accept dating casually while your divorce isn't final, but at least keep your pants on people..

I can accept dating before divorce is final, even if I don't agree with it.. but if you are taking your pants off you have crossed the line and need to take a few steps back.