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Re: Revenge Dating
[Re: Allen_A]
#35388
12/14/10 03:53 PM
12/14/10 03:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,931 Tennessee
TimeHeals
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Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,931
Tennessee
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I like Phil McGraw. He's a person who obviously has a time perspective that is highly future positive, and that's also why he has trouble reaching people who are not highly future positive.
Oprah once asked him to interupt his vacation to come and help her and some friends solve a 'crisis' they were having, so he flew half-way across the country on her dime and took a taxi to her home. When he arrived, Oprah was with her friends, and she asked, "Dr. Phil, we've been up all night, and we just can't figure it out. Why are we fat?".
Phil answered, "You had me fly out here for that? You're fat because you want to be fat. You don't have to eat jelly donuts, but you do", he said pointing to a box of jelly donuts on the table.
Oprah replied, "No. We don't want to be fat. We hate it".
Dr. Phil then countered, "You want to be fat, and that's why you make the food choices you make. If you didn't want to be fat, you would make different choices".
Cracks me up.
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Re: Revenge Dating
[Re: Soleil]
#35523
12/14/10 06:48 PM
12/14/10 06:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 272
Marlowe
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Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 272
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But what about dating when the other party has filed already and you are separated and the D is going through? What do you guys think? For me, it depends. If I'm still hoping to reconcile, even after divorce has been filed, then I need to resolve my inner attachment before I start dating so that I can be open to finding the best partner available instead of pining for the one I lost. If I'm in those shoes (and others might be different), it's highly likely that I'm going to end up letting my feelings of loneliness or nostalgia close off better options than I might be considering otherwise. Not to mention, if I'm pining for an old partner while dating a new one, that's hardly fair to the new person. They shouldn't have to compete for my attention when they don't even know they're in a competition. (Any BS will probably recognize that logic.) If I'm not hoping to reconcile and essentially just waiting for the paperwork to churn through the courts, then I still need to assess my level of healthiness to determine whether or not I'm ready to date, and keep in mind that folks willing to date people who are still legally/financially entangled with others probably have their own issues that you might not want to deal with. (Again, there are a ton of exceptions here for divorces that drag out for years...but if I'm in the dating pool, at some point I start asking myself *why* the divorce has dragged on for years.) So, I don't tend to look at it as a moral issue so much as an entanglement/complication issue. At all costs, one needs to avoid shooting their new life in the foot just because they don't like being alone after years of marriage. The people I've seen who have had the most success (when starting during separation or afterwards) where the ones who realized that their dating skillz were 20 years old and they should start by going out as a single person with groups of friends and recalling what it was like to be on the market, meet new people, etc., rather than jumping straight into the world of online dating, six dates with six different partners a week, etc. Most people I've ever known who ended up divorced went through what I think of as the "Six Month Self-Destruct Phase" where they're so invested in re-inventing themselves as a single person they engage in a host of out-of-character behaviors like drinking, smoking, casual sex, etc. And once it's petered out, they go back to being exactly the same sort of person they were before the divorce, just without a spouse. I think I understand the psychological need to recreate/find themselves when the role by which they've defined themselves has been shorn away, but it's equally important to be aware that it's happening, that one is susceptible to it, and find ways to avoid getting saddled with long term consequences of decisions made during a period of emotional upheaval. There are just so many factors that go into a question like "When is it okay to date?" The point in the divorce proceedings is just one of them, and I don't think there are blanket answers. In my opinion, the question that needs to come first is simply "How will doing this - dating, dating now, whatever - help me achieve the best possible life I've envisioned for myself?" I don't think that's foolproof, and we're all going to make mistakes while we figure out whether or not this decision or that decision was really in our best interest, but it's useful to have an overall goal in mind when confronting the smaller questions along the way.
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Re: Revenge Dating
[Re: Marlowe]
#35605
12/14/10 08:14 PM
12/14/10 08:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611 The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen
Board of Directors
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Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
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But what about dating when the other party has filed already and you are separated and the D is going through? What do you guys think? That depends on where you are at emotionally, both in regards to the legal spouse and in regards to your own healing. In reality, those are inextricably tied in most cases. I dated under those circumstances. I was also in counseling with a clinical psychologist at the time. My situation was quite different from most I've seen. I was to the point that I was done. I had filed. I was not interested in reconciling under any circumstances whatsoever. Even had he shown up and done everything I'd ever asked from him, I wouldn't have wanted to be with him. I was completely done. We were physically separated. We'd been emotionally separated for years. In every way but legally, we were divorced. I was just waiting on the paperwork. I had no need for answers. I had no need for arguments. I had no need of apologies, let alone explanations. I had no need for contact whatsoever, and didn't want it. I had no idea where he was living, or what he was doing - and I didn't care. The only time I bothered to have anyone find out was when I needed to serve him with the paperwork. It's easy to say these things in a situation, but they need to be true. Just wishing that they were true isn't enough. Late at night, as you lie awake in bed, and when you are being honest with yourself...they still need to be true.
Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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Re: Revenge Dating
[Re: Allen_A]
#64368
02/03/11 05:56 PM
02/03/11 05:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 242
futureunknown
Member
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Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 242
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Not to mention, if I'm pining for an old partner while dating a new one, that's hardly fair to the new person. They shouldn't have to compete for my attention when they don't even know they're in a competition. (Any BS will probably recognize that logic.)
If all notions of commitment have been eliminated between you and your spouse, you're physically separated, the divorce is in progress, and especially if they've already gone outside the marriage, then I think dating is absolutely ok. Yes, if you're truly pining, then you should probably resolve that before you start seriously dating. Very casual dating is helpful in that regard though, as it reminds you that there are a lot of great people out there. It's a process. I don't agree with this continual notion espoused here about responsibility to new dating partners though. Be honest with them, but until a declaration of commitment is made, they ABSOLUTELY should assume they are competing for you, because they are, just as you're competing for them. That's a big part of dating, and the whole point of declaring commitment is to relieve each other of that assumption. IMO, the only truly meaningful declaration of commitment is a proposal. Until then, you're still a free agent.
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Re: Revenge Dating
[Re: Allen_A]
#64413
02/03/11 07:16 PM
02/03/11 07:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932 Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa
Member
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Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932
Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
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To me, the dating while married though divorcing is an issue of my own personal boundaries and integrity.
I was not married until the DAY I said I do. The day before I married, though I loved and was committed to my DH, then fiance, we were not married. I was not his wife and he was not my husband. Either of us could have walked away before we said I do. But afterwards we were married.
We are married until we aren't anymore, via death or divorce. No matter his actions within the marriage.
I vowed, before my family, before him, and before God that I would love and cherish him, forsaking all others through good times and bad. That vow was not contingent upon his behavior. That vow has nothing to do with him. It has to do with me. My word.
I will honor that vow until we die, or should our marriage tragically end in divorce, until the divorce is final.
I promised through better and worse. Not much can be worse than divorce, than adultery.
My husband's actions cannot dictate whether or not I will uphold my vows. Only my personal integrity determines that. Should my husband chose to violate his vow and act single, though he is married, should have no bearing on my choice to keep that vow.
THAT is why I cannot forsee myself dating if I were to ever be in the process of divorce. I gave my word, til death do us part (or in extreme circumstances, if Divorce is necessary). No action of my husband's can deter me from keeping it.
There is plenty of time for dating, once a divorce is final. I've heard enough 'we changed our minds at the last minute and made it work' to ever believe that just 'feeling' you are done is enough to justify violating that vow.
Marriage is like pregnancy: you can't be a little pregnant, just like you can't be 'almost married'. You can't be unpregnant until you give birth, you can't be not married until you are divorced. I think there is a lot of personal, emotional danger in a married person acting like they are single.
They aren't single.
They are married.
Last edited by Vibrissa; 02/03/11 07:16 PM.
Moi: 33 DH: Kenichi 33 M: 8/2005 DD 6 yrs DS 3 yrs Ze Blog
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Re: Revenge Dating
[Re: Vibrissa]
#64523
02/03/11 08:54 PM
02/03/11 08:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 242
futureunknown
Member
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Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 242
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To me, the dating while married though divorcing is an issue of my own personal boundaries and integrity.
I was not married until the DAY I said I do. The day before I married, though I loved and was committed to my DH, then fiance, we were not married. I was not his wife and he was not my husband. Either of us could have walked away before we said I do. But afterwards we were married.
We are married until we aren't anymore, via death or divorce. No matter his actions within the marriage.
I vowed, before my family, before him, and before God that I would love and cherish him, forsaking all others through good times and bad. That vow was not contingent upon his behavior. That vow has nothing to do with him. It has to do with me. My word.
I will honor that vow until we die, or should our marriage tragically end in divorce, until the divorce is final.
I promised through better and worse. Not much can be worse than divorce, than adultery.
My husband's actions cannot dictate whether or not I will uphold my vows. Only my personal integrity determines that. Should my husband chose to violate his vow and act single, though he is married, should have no bearing on my choice to keep that vow.
THAT is why I cannot forsee myself dating if I were to ever be in the process of divorce. I gave my word, til death do us part (or in extreme circumstances, if Divorce is necessary). No action of my husband's can deter me from keeping it.
There is plenty of time for dating, once a divorce is final. I've heard enough 'we changed our minds at the last minute and made it work' to ever believe that just 'feeling' you are done is enough to justify violating that vow.
Marriage is like pregnancy: you can't be a little pregnant, just like you can't be 'almost married'. You can't be unpregnant until you give birth, you can't be not married until you are divorced. I think there is a lot of personal, emotional danger in a married person acting like they are single.
They aren't single.
They are married. To me the legalities are not what make a marriage, but rather the emotional bond. However, I don't think that bond can truly be broken until you are physically separated, and living totally separate lives. Once the emotional bond is gone, the legal stuff doesn't matter, IMO. After several years of bad marriage, and two years of separation, I'm not willing to sacrifice any more time on the alter of my dead marriage. Life is too short. I don't even consider reconciliation out of the question, but it's out of my hands, and I'm not putting my life on hold any more. One out of six divorced couples that remarry end up remarrying each other, so obviously many do the "we changed our minds" thing after the legal divorce too. If they dated in between the divorce and the "we changed our minds" moment, did they cheat? I agree with you that the moment I said "I do", I was bound to a vow. That was not a legal thing for me, but rather a deep personal commitment. Unfortunately, there is no divorce ceremony, there is no way I can declare that to me, the marriage is over. I never considered it even remotely possible. I was dragged here against every fiber of my being, and yet here I am. Marriage is very lopsided that way, and I think that's the reason some rely on that legal divorce to be that final end mark, because there is no other mechanism. The legal stuff is just filing of some papers though. It doesn't mean one thing as to how I feel. To me, I felt divorced when I finally let go of my wife, and moved on with my life.
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Re: Revenge Dating
[Re: futureunknown]
#64537
02/03/11 09:11 PM
02/03/11 09:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932 Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa
Member
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Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932
Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
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And to adulterers, they feel divorced before they hop in the sack. Thats how most justify their adultery to themselves. "The marriage is over." "I don't love you." How many times have we heard of a WS uttering these phrases. Feelings do not justify adultery. If so where does the grey line tip from 'ok' adultery to 'not ok' adultery? Who is the arbiter? If it's ok for you to determine that the marriage is 'over' because of your feelings, then does not that same logic justify the wayward spouse? They feel the marriage is over, or they wouldn't be with someone else (for the most part). I agree with you that the moment I said "I do", I was bound to a vow. That was not a legal thing for me, but rather a deep personal commitment. So basically your vow was for as long as you felt like it. When you no longer feel like it, you absolve yourself of the vow. For you that may be enough. It isn't enough for me. Too much like a typical adulterer's thinking for my taste, and having suffered due to the warped thinking that adultery produces, I'd rather stay as far away from that thinking as possible, even if there is a safe 'grey' area. I can't base my actions solely on my feelings. Feelings are fickle. They change, and the worst part about that is that we perceive them to be permanent. We think the way we feel now is how we will always feel, when that is rarely the case. I don't believe my feelings are a safe barometer against which I can justify breaking a vow I have made.
Moi: 33 DH: Kenichi 33 M: 8/2005 DD 6 yrs DS 3 yrs Ze Blog
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