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Revenge Dating #35087
12/13/10 07:16 PM
12/13/10 07:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline OP

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My first nomination goes to....

Originally Posted By: Marlowe
Hmm. I don't have an objection to dating, but not in the context of considering reconciliation. I'm of the school that says dating isn't appropriate until there's a clear physical separation with the intent to divorce (since divorces have been known to drag out for years).

I don't like the idea of "revenge dating" because it uses a third person to send a message to the former spouse, even in cases like I've outlined in the previous paragraph. That just seems like unfair play.

I come from a perspective that holds that the primary responsibility of the betrayed spouse is to heal themselves and make appropriate, healthy decisions from there. If the marriage can be saved, that's great, but the BS's primary responsibility is to make themselves whole. Engaging in self-destructive behaviors does not further that agenda, even if they do feel like they bring temporary relief. Putting one's self in a position to get tied down to unfit/unhealthy partners because that's the only pool available at the time falls on the same level as using alcohol or other mind-altering substances[1] to cope.



original post here

Last edited by lildoggie; 06/09/11 01:50 AM.

AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Lil] #35105
12/13/10 07:52 PM
12/13/10 07:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,883
Gateway to the West
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Not2fun Offline
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Gateway to the West
You beat me to it!!!!.... thumbsup

Not2fun


" If you couldn't change your partner when you were together, you sure aren't going to now that you aren't together..." Words of the teacher of the court mandated parenting class...and the ONE thing that stuck out to me!!!
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Not2fun] #35118
12/13/10 08:18 PM
12/13/10 08:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 272
M
Marlowe Offline
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You're going to make me blush.

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Marlowe] #35208
12/14/10 01:05 AM
12/14/10 01:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,883
Gateway to the West
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Not2fun Offline
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Gateway to the West
Originally Posted By: Marlowe
You're going to make me blush.


I have a feeling you're going to be "blushing" often...... blush

Just saw your background......Welcome!!!!

Not2fun

Ps....sometimes I sign with "Not" and sometimes "Not2fun"...... grin


" If you couldn't change your partner when you were together, you sure aren't going to now that you aren't together..." Words of the teacher of the court mandated parenting class...and the ONE thing that stuck out to me!!!
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Not2fun] #35383
12/14/10 03:42 PM
12/14/10 03:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,620
Allen_A Offline
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Phil McGraw has some good points to make :

http://drphil.com/shows/video/?XMLPath=%2Fvideo.xml%2F%3FShowID%3D1471%26Type%3DUncensored


Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Allen_A] #35388
12/14/10 03:53 PM
12/14/10 03:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,931
Tennessee
TimeHeals Offline
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I like Phil McGraw. He's a person who obviously has a time perspective that is highly future positive, and that's also why he has trouble reaching people who are not highly future positive.

Oprah once asked him to interupt his vacation to come and help her and some friends solve a 'crisis' they were having, so he flew half-way across the country on her dime and took a taxi to her home. When he arrived, Oprah was with her friends, and she asked, "Dr. Phil, we've been up all night, and we just can't figure it out. Why are we fat?".

Phil answered, "You had me fly out here for that? You're fat because you want to be fat. You don't have to eat jelly donuts, but you do", he said pointing to a box of jelly donuts on the table.

Oprah replied, "No. We don't want to be fat. We hate it".

Dr. Phil then countered, "You want to be fat, and that's why you make the food choices you make. If you didn't want to be fat, you would make different choices".



Cracks me up.


Your Time Perspective Can Heal
Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: TimeHeals] #35391
12/14/10 03:55 PM
12/14/10 03:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,620
Allen_A Offline
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Yup... he has an odd way of putting things, and i think you need to have a certain degree of intelligence to get what he's saying, but the model he uses is pretty damn good.

I think his advice on ths subject is spot on as well.


Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Allen_A] #35418
12/14/10 04:26 PM
12/14/10 04:26 PM
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Posts: 989
Soleil Offline
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Dating while married, not separated, and both parties trying to actively reconcile by doing counselling together to me is wrong.

But what about dating when the other party has filed already and you are separated and the D is going through? What do you guys think?

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Soleil] #35425
12/14/10 04:38 PM
12/14/10 04:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,620
Allen_A Offline
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Watch the phil mcgraw.. that's what I think...


Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Soleil] #35523
12/14/10 06:48 PM
12/14/10 06:48 PM
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Marlowe Offline
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Originally Posted By: Soleil
But what about dating when the other party has filed already and you are separated and the D is going through? What do you guys think?


For me, it depends. If I'm still hoping to reconcile, even after divorce has been filed, then I need to resolve my inner attachment before I start dating so that I can be open to finding the best partner available instead of pining for the one I lost. If I'm in those shoes (and others might be different), it's highly likely that I'm going to end up letting my feelings of loneliness or nostalgia close off better options than I might be considering otherwise. Not to mention, if I'm pining for an old partner while dating a new one, that's hardly fair to the new person. They shouldn't have to compete for my attention when they don't even know they're in a competition. (Any BS will probably recognize that logic.)

If I'm not hoping to reconcile and essentially just waiting for the paperwork to churn through the courts, then I still need to assess my level of healthiness to determine whether or not I'm ready to date, and keep in mind that folks willing to date people who are still legally/financially entangled with others probably have their own issues that you might not want to deal with. (Again, there are a ton of exceptions here for divorces that drag out for years...but if I'm in the dating pool, at some point I start asking myself *why* the divorce has dragged on for years.)

So, I don't tend to look at it as a moral issue so much as an entanglement/complication issue. At all costs, one needs to avoid shooting their new life in the foot just because they don't like being alone after years of marriage. The people I've seen who have had the most success (when starting during separation or afterwards) where the ones who realized that their dating skillz were 20 years old and they should start by going out as a single person with groups of friends and recalling what it was like to be on the market, meet new people, etc., rather than jumping straight into the world of online dating, six dates with six different partners a week, etc.

Most people I've ever known who ended up divorced went through what I think of as the "Six Month Self-Destruct Phase" where they're so invested in re-inventing themselves as a single person they engage in a host of out-of-character behaviors like drinking, smoking, casual sex, etc. And once it's petered out, they go back to being exactly the same sort of person they were before the divorce, just without a spouse. I think I understand the psychological need to recreate/find themselves when the role by which they've defined themselves has been shorn away, but it's equally important to be aware that it's happening, that one is susceptible to it, and find ways to avoid getting saddled with long term consequences of decisions made during a period of emotional upheaval.

There are just so many factors that go into a question like "When is it okay to date?" The point in the divorce proceedings is just one of them, and I don't think there are blanket answers.

In my opinion, the question that needs to come first is simply "How will doing this - dating, dating now, whatever - help me achieve the best possible life I've envisioned for myself?"

I don't think that's foolproof, and we're all going to make mistakes while we figure out whether or not this decision or that decision was really in our best interest, but it's useful to have an overall goal in mind when confronting the smaller questions along the way.

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Marlowe] #35605
12/14/10 08:14 PM
12/14/10 08:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
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Quote:
But what about dating when the other party has filed already and you are separated and the D is going through? What do you guys think?


That depends on where you are at emotionally, both in regards to the legal spouse and in regards to your own healing. In reality, those are inextricably tied in most cases.

I dated under those circumstances. I was also in counseling with a clinical psychologist at the time. My situation was quite different from most I've seen.

I was to the point that I was done. I had filed. I was not interested in reconciling under any circumstances whatsoever. Even had he shown up and done everything I'd ever asked from him, I wouldn't have wanted to be with him. I was completely done. We were physically separated. We'd been emotionally separated for years. In every way but legally, we were divorced. I was just waiting on the paperwork.

I had no need for answers. I had no need for arguments. I had no need of apologies, let alone explanations. I had no need for contact whatsoever, and didn't want it. I had no idea where he was living, or what he was doing - and I didn't care. The only time I bothered to have anyone find out was when I needed to serve him with the paperwork.

It's easy to say these things in a situation, but they need to be true. Just wishing that they were true isn't enough. Late at night, as you lie awake in bed, and when you are being honest with yourself...they still need to be true.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: AntigoneRisen] #36349
12/15/10 10:39 PM
12/15/10 10:39 PM
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Posts: 3,027
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OurHouse Offline
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I agree w/ Marlowe and AR.

Anyone working a marriage reconciliation plan of any sort, or hoping to reconcile, has no business dating.

If you are done, as in 'stick a fork in it, done' then the next step on the decision tree is to assess your emotional health. If you are feeling strong and stable, and as in AR's situation, basically just waiting on paperwork, then I think it's fine.


Re: Revenge Dating [Re: OurHouse] #36363
12/15/10 11:08 PM
12/15/10 11:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,072
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
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Dating someone else is never a very good way to fix a relationship. If you are done, then be DONE. Finish one before beginning another.

I might also point out that you are done when YOU are done and not just because your WAS/WS has said he/she is done.

Friends of mine were divorced for over 10 years and ended up getting married to each other again. He dated a couple of times during that time, and she was engaged for a couple of years before backing out. Neither one was really done and they remained in contact mainly due to their children. Eventually they decided they were better together than apart for various reasons and retied the knot.

When she died, he was finally done...



mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Mark1952] #36399
12/16/10 12:00 AM
12/16/10 12:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
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LadyGrey Offline
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Mark, your friends' story is why we are still married- we laughed about it months ago and decided to skip the divorce part and weather the storm. We are each others life partners and all other issues aside it would be grossly unfair to whoever we might date post D.

I miss having those kinds of talks with him...we laughed SO much.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: TimeHeals] #38804
12/21/10 06:31 PM
12/21/10 06:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,090
soolee Offline
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OMG. LOL I can't believe she actually asked him to interrupt his vacation. That's what money does to you, I guess! crazy

You know...I think the thing with Dr. Phil is that he cuts to the chase. He cuts out all the psycho babble and lays it on the line. He tells you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.

Last edited by soolee; 12/21/10 06:32 PM.

Me: 53
Him: 53
Together: 34 years
Married: 27 years

"Aspire to Inspire before you Expire" Author Unknown

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Re: Revenge Dating [Re: soolee] #38846
12/21/10 08:10 PM
12/21/10 08:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,620
Allen_A Offline
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Alot of people find McGraww annoying.. But that don't mean he's wrong.. lol


Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Allen_A] #64368
02/03/11 05:56 PM
02/03/11 05:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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futureunknown Offline
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Quote:

Not to mention, if I'm pining for an old partner while dating a new one, that's hardly fair to the new person. They shouldn't have to compete for my attention when they don't even know they're in a competition. (Any BS will probably recognize that logic.)


If all notions of commitment have been eliminated between you and your spouse, you're physically separated, the divorce is in progress, and especially if they've already gone outside the marriage, then I think dating is absolutely ok. Yes, if you're truly pining, then you should probably resolve that before you start seriously dating. Very casual dating is helpful in that regard though, as it reminds you that there are a lot of great people out there. It's a process.

I don't agree with this continual notion espoused here about responsibility to new dating partners though. Be honest with them, but until a declaration of commitment is made, they ABSOLUTELY should assume they are competing for you, because they are, just as you're competing for them. That's a big part of dating, and the whole point of declaring commitment is to relieve each other of that assumption. IMO, the only truly meaningful declaration of commitment is a proposal. Until then, you're still a free agent.

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: futureunknown] #64384
02/03/11 06:18 PM
02/03/11 06:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
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Allen_A Offline
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You need time to process the END of your marriage.. escaping into another relationship does not work.

Why would anyone agree to date someone they KNOW tehy ahve to compete for?

This just sounds like infidleity in a new package to me...


Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Allen_A] #64413
02/03/11 07:16 PM
02/03/11 07:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932
Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
To me, the dating while married though divorcing is an issue of my own personal boundaries and integrity.

I was not married until the DAY I said I do. The day before I married, though I loved and was committed to my DH, then fiance, we were not married. I was not his wife and he was not my husband. Either of us could have walked away before we said I do. But afterwards we were married.

We are married until we aren't anymore, via death or divorce. No matter his actions within the marriage.

I vowed, before my family, before him, and before God that I would love and cherish him, forsaking all others through good times and bad. That vow was not contingent upon his behavior. That vow has nothing to do with him. It has to do with me. My word.

I will honor that vow until we die, or should our marriage tragically end in divorce, until the divorce is final.

I promised through better and worse. Not much can be worse than divorce, than adultery.

My husband's actions cannot dictate whether or not I will uphold my vows. Only my personal integrity determines that. Should my husband chose to violate his vow and act single, though he is married, should have no bearing on my choice to keep that vow.

THAT is why I cannot forsee myself dating if I were to ever be in the process of divorce. I gave my word, til death do us part (or in extreme circumstances, if Divorce is necessary). No action of my husband's can deter me from keeping it.

There is plenty of time for dating, once a divorce is final. I've heard enough 'we changed our minds at the last minute and made it work' to ever believe that just 'feeling' you are done is enough to justify violating that vow.

Marriage is like pregnancy: you can't be a little pregnant, just like you can't be 'almost married'. You can't be unpregnant until you give birth, you can't be not married until you are divorced. I think there is a lot of personal, emotional danger in a married person acting like they are single.

They aren't single.

They are married.

Last edited by Vibrissa; 02/03/11 07:16 PM.

Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Vibrissa] #64420
02/03/11 07:26 PM
02/03/11 07:26 PM
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Allen_A Offline
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Well said Vibbs.. smile

And to add to that between married and single is a long long road that you transition between. A commitment characterized like Vibs just did above makes it pretty clear marriage to single is something that takes time to transition between.

You don't flip marriage off like a switch.

Until the marriage light is OFF completely you have no business going near anyone else.. steer clear.

Last edited by Allen_A; 02/03/11 07:28 PM.

Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Allen_A] #64491
02/03/11 08:31 PM
02/03/11 08:31 PM
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futureunknown Offline
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Originally Posted By: Allen_A
You need time to process the END of your marriage.. escaping into another relationship does not work.

Why would anyone agree to date someone they KNOW tehy ahve to compete for?

This just sounds like infidleity in a new package to me...


Yes, of course I agree you need to process the end of your marriage before getting into another relationship. As I've said many times here though, dating is not a relationship. Also, the emotional process and the legal process may be very far off from each other.

Why would you ever assume you're NOT competing for someone you're dating? Of course you are. Are you assuming they are committed to you from the moment they meet you? The whole point of dating is to determine if you WANT to be committed to each other.

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: futureunknown] #64504
02/03/11 08:41 PM
02/03/11 08:41 PM
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Allen_A Offline
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Dating isn't a relationship? lol

There are differing levels of "dating"

But once a couple agrees to be exclusive, then promiscuity stops and the competition ends.

That should be happening well before engagemetn and marriage.


Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Vibrissa] #64523
02/03/11 08:54 PM
02/03/11 08:54 PM
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futureunknown Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vibrissa
To me, the dating while married though divorcing is an issue of my own personal boundaries and integrity.

I was not married until the DAY I said I do. The day before I married, though I loved and was committed to my DH, then fiance, we were not married. I was not his wife and he was not my husband. Either of us could have walked away before we said I do. But afterwards we were married.

We are married until we aren't anymore, via death or divorce. No matter his actions within the marriage.

I vowed, before my family, before him, and before God that I would love and cherish him, forsaking all others through good times and bad. That vow was not contingent upon his behavior. That vow has nothing to do with him. It has to do with me. My word.

I will honor that vow until we die, or should our marriage tragically end in divorce, until the divorce is final.

I promised through better and worse. Not much can be worse than divorce, than adultery.

My husband's actions cannot dictate whether or not I will uphold my vows. Only my personal integrity determines that. Should my husband chose to violate his vow and act single, though he is married, should have no bearing on my choice to keep that vow.

THAT is why I cannot forsee myself dating if I were to ever be in the process of divorce. I gave my word, til death do us part (or in extreme circumstances, if Divorce is necessary). No action of my husband's can deter me from keeping it.

There is plenty of time for dating, once a divorce is final. I've heard enough 'we changed our minds at the last minute and made it work' to ever believe that just 'feeling' you are done is enough to justify violating that vow.

Marriage is like pregnancy: you can't be a little pregnant, just like you can't be 'almost married'. You can't be unpregnant until you give birth, you can't be not married until you are divorced. I think there is a lot of personal, emotional danger in a married person acting like they are single.

They aren't single.

They are married.


To me the legalities are not what make a marriage, but rather the emotional bond. However, I don't think that bond can truly be broken until you are physically separated, and living totally separate lives. Once the emotional bond is gone, the legal stuff doesn't matter, IMO.

After several years of bad marriage, and two years of separation, I'm not willing to sacrifice any more time on the alter of my dead marriage. Life is too short. I don't even consider reconciliation out of the question, but it's out of my hands, and I'm not putting my life on hold any more. One out of six divorced couples that remarry end up remarrying each other, so obviously many do the "we changed our minds" thing after the legal divorce too. If they dated in between the divorce and the "we changed our minds" moment, did they cheat?

I agree with you that the moment I said "I do", I was bound to a vow. That was not a legal thing for me, but rather a deep personal commitment. Unfortunately, there is no divorce ceremony, there is no way I can declare that to me, the marriage is over. I never considered it even remotely possible. I was dragged here against every fiber of my being, and yet here I am. Marriage is very lopsided that way, and I think that's the reason some rely on that legal divorce to be that final end mark, because there is no other mechanism. The legal stuff is just filing of some papers though. It doesn't mean one thing as to how I feel. To me, I felt divorced when I finally let go of my wife, and moved on with my life.

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: futureunknown] #64537
02/03/11 09:11 PM
02/03/11 09:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 932
Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
And to adulterers, they feel divorced before they hop in the sack. Thats how most justify their adultery to themselves.

"The marriage is over."
"I don't love you."

How many times have we heard of a WS uttering these phrases.

Feelings do not justify adultery. If so where does the grey line tip from 'ok' adultery to 'not ok' adultery? Who is the arbiter?

If it's ok for you to determine that the marriage is 'over' because of your feelings, then does not that same logic justify the wayward spouse? They feel the marriage is over, or they wouldn't be with someone else (for the most part).

Quote:
I agree with you that the moment I said "I do", I was bound to a vow. That was not a legal thing for me, but rather a deep personal commitment.


So basically your vow was for as long as you felt like it. When you no longer feel like it, you absolve yourself of the vow. For you that may be enough. It isn't enough for me. Too much like a typical adulterer's thinking for my taste, and having suffered due to the warped thinking that adultery produces, I'd rather stay as far away from that thinking as possible, even if there is a safe 'grey' area.

I can't base my actions solely on my feelings. Feelings are fickle. They change, and the worst part about that is that we perceive them to be permanent. We think the way we feel now is how we will always feel, when that is rarely the case. I don't believe my feelings are a safe barometer against which I can justify breaking a vow I have made.


Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Vibrissa] #64547
02/03/11 09:22 PM
02/03/11 09:22 PM
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Allen_A Offline
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I can maybe accept dating casually while your divorce isn't final, but at least keep your pants on people..

I can accept dating before divorce is final, even if I don't agree with it.. but if you are taking your pants off you have crossed the line and need to take a few steps back.


Respect Mah Authoritah!

But... I don't do cryptic...
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Vibrissa] #64595
02/03/11 10:27 PM
02/03/11 10:27 PM
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futureunknown Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vibrissa
And to adulterers, they feel divorced before they hop in the sack. Thats how most justify their adultery to themselves.

"The marriage is over."
"I don't love you."

How many times have we heard of a WS uttering these phrases.

Feelings do not justify adultery. If so where does the grey line tip from 'ok' adultery to 'not ok' adultery? Who is the arbiter?

If it's ok for you to determine that the marriage is 'over' because of your feelings, then does not that same logic justify the wayward spouse? They feel the marriage is over, or they wouldn't be with someone else (for the most part).

Quote:
I agree with you that the moment I said "I do", I was bound to a vow. That was not a legal thing for me, but rather a deep personal commitment.


So basically your vow was for as long as you felt like it. When you no longer feel like it, you absolve yourself of the vow. For you that may be enough. It isn't enough for me. Too much like a typical adulterer's thinking for my taste, and having suffered due to the warped thinking that adultery produces, I'd rather stay as far away from that thinking as possible, even if there is a safe 'grey' area.

I can't base my actions solely on my feelings. Feelings are fickle. They change, and the worst part about that is that we perceive them to be permanent. We think the way we feel now is how we will always feel, when that is rarely the case. I don't believe my feelings are a safe barometer against which I can justify breaking a vow I have made.


Yeah, I've had those same words uttered to me too, but they are particularly hollow when we're living in the same house, raising our kids together, combined finances, etc, and the wayward affair was all happening in secret until I discovered it. Saying those words then is complete and utter BS. For the one who leaves the marriage to have any integrity at all, they should tell their spouse they want the marriage to end, do their best to get the finances in order, file for divorce, move out and establish a totally separate life, allow time to pass to let the marriage die with some amount of dignity, and only then consider the possibility of dating. As we all know, that's not how it usually works, and that's definitely not what happened to me.

My vow was meant for life, and it wasn't my choice to abandon it. Nothing in my vow mentioned divorce, so divorce doesn't absolve me of it. That's what makes it such a horrible situation. I can't live under my vow forever while my wife has left and is living a separate life. Divorce is a totally legal term to me. When I finally reached the point of leaving my marriage behind, I had already been without my wife emotionally for several years, and living completely separately for two years, while still trying to fix myself and my marriage, but eventually I had to let it go. I understand why some would want that legal declaration before moving on, but it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: futureunknown] #64628
02/03/11 11:12 PM
02/03/11 11:12 PM
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
Vibrissa Offline
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Texas - that narrows it a bit ...
I get what you're saying.

Quote:
For the one who leaves the marriage to have any integrity at all, they should tell their spouse they want the marriage to end, do their best to get the finances in order, file for divorce, move out and establish a totally separate life, allow time to pass to let the marriage die with some amount of dignity, and only then consider the possibility of dating.


I whole-heartedly and completely agree with this. If it is over, end it. The cake-eating waffling is disgusting, offensive and abusive. Few things anger me as much as that.

I know what you are saying. I understand it. I hope I never have to reach that place, and if I ever do, my current views and words may go right out the window. It is one thing to say what you WOULD do, often it is very different to walk that path.

I can see why you have chosen as you have, and I can see other situations where a similar choice could be made (those in Catholic countries where divorce isn't allowed, for example). For me, for my own piece of mind, I would need the dissolution of the union to be 'official', and then some.

Sometimes you think you're 'over it' when, really, you're only going through one of the steps along the path to healing. I don't know that just the divorce being final is enough for some. There needs to be time to heal, to mourn, to rebuild the self. That is why I would advise a close friend in this situation to err on the side of waiting, for their own benefit.

Sometimes after a relationship is over we seek healing through another person, but I don't think we can truly heal that way, it's just a bandage over a gaping wound.

That's the risk you run, if you date before the marriage is over. Often, there just hasn't been enough time for the requisite healing.



Moi: 33
DH: Kenichi 33
M: 8/2005
DD 6 yrs
DS 3 yrs
Ze Blog
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Vibrissa] #64680
02/04/11 12:21 AM
02/04/11 12:21 AM
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Mark1952 Offline
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My wife said our marriage was over...

She wouldn't say that today and in fact has thanked me that I didn't just let her go or decide to find someone else myself.

The problem with feelings is that they can and do change based on circumstances. Even in early recovery I sometimes thought we were done. The problem is encountered when you make choices and decisions that have only feelings as their basis.

Three guys were on a business trip. One was from Marketing, one was a hardware engineer and one was a software developer. The Marketing guy was driving and as they traveled down the Interstate, the car suddenly started making a noise like whop-whop-whop and listed to one side, signs of a flat tire.

The Marketing guy pulled over, shut the car off and threw up his hands. "We need a new car," he said.

The Hardware guy interrupted him, "No we don't. We have spare and a jack in the trunk of the car. We'll unload our stuff, dig out the jack and the spare and change the right front, put everything away and try it for a while. If that didn't fix it, we'll swap the right rear and try it again. We just have to go around the car clockwise until we find the right tire."

The Software guy had gotten out of the car and was leaning against the side. Looking off into the distance he commented, "There's a Starbucks. Why don't we go get a cup of coffee, leave it alone for a while and see if it fixes itself."

A new one won't fix it. Unless you are ready to walk away, this won't be much help.

Throwing random solutions at it won't fix it most of the time unless you happen to guess right the first time.

Leaving it unresolved ain't ever gonna fix it.

That is why getting input for others who have been through it before can be of so much value in helping you make the choice.

Marriages have been broken beyond repair but have come back from the brink of extinction. Best to know it is over before you trade it in for a new set of problems. Processing what happened and whether or not you had a part in the failure of the relationship can mean a lot when it comes time to fixing the next one, which is going to happen sooner or later.

Unless of course marriage only requires finding the right person and the rest happens by magic...

But then consider that you thought that was true the first time around and see where it got you.

I know a guy whose wife had an affair. It was already pretty much over when he found out about it, but his response was to decide to move on and find someone else. He had the misfortune of actually falling in love with another woman. They were scheduled to have their divorce preliminary on Tuesday and someone talked them into attending a seminar for marriages in crisis on Friday through Sunday.

Divorce delayed then canceled.

Today they work together to teach other couples how to improve their marriage and train others to do the same. Their children are still in an intact home.

Feelings change...


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Mark1952] #110420
05/24/11 09:40 AM
05/24/11 09:40 AM
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New Zealand
Lil Offline OP

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How to 'look' like your dating as a way to attract a WH without losing your integrity.

"Carol" MB 2003

ETA: Bum, the thread has vanished.
SO a rough outline of what she did was:


When hubby came to see the kids, The BW was all dressed up, and out the door she went. Actually, as I recall, she went to the library and read books, or WalMart for a coke.
She never actually DID anything untoward - but- she allowed her WH's imagination to run amok- it was brilliant.
She worked with a marriage coach - who would call her or text her...

In other words - she eventually tweaked his imagination so much that HE started to pursue HER (because he sensed she was no longer hanging around waiting for him to return)- and for awhile she was way too busy to be any more than briefly polite with WH before she had to "rush off" to make an "appointment with a friend".
Originally Posted By: Carol
He says he is calling from my house. I say I am parked along the side of the road taking the call (I was). He says he is going to go to EA's house and finish it with her. I tell him he does not have to do that...everyone needs friends. He says he has to do it, because he does not ever want me to worry about her. I say, whatever, but I am not telling you what to do (he said before that I am too controlling...actually he is just passive-aggressive and they all think the spouse is controlling even tho we might not be!) So we hang up.

The bit where she had a slinky dress and suitcase in the car for her WH to see was classic. The suitcase was empty, it was just sitting in the boot of the car with the kids overnight bags. When she opened it to get the kids bags out, the WS saw it. If he asked about where she was going, she would always be vague and just say "Out", or "With a friend". She always spoke the truth, but the WH being a trusting (not) as they are, would assume she was seeing a guy.

Tighten the thumbscrews of WH's PERCEPTION.

It's the perception that matters. you don't have to replicate Carol's incident - only her attitude!

She got a life. She was determined that anything he "saw" was going to truly be his reality, whether or not it was "real" when he saw it.

Last edited by lildoggie; 08/10/12 09:31 PM.

AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Lil] #116313
06/05/11 12:01 AM
06/05/11 12:01 AM
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Ace Offline
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
How to 'look' like your dating as a way to attract a WH without losing your integrity.

"Carol" MB 2003


Interesting thread, lil. Not sure if I could pull off the mini-deceptions (even with the help of a coach). Oh HEY! That is an MB thread talking about MWD and DB.....could that "coach" be OUR Coach here now on MA? (??)


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Ace] #142414
08/04/11 01:39 AM
08/04/11 01:39 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Kayla
DMD - I think you miss the mark. It's NOT the revenge dating that recovers the marriage. It's the confidence.

A man does not need to violate his own personal morals by going out and finding some skank who will bed a married man. Or do you advocate LYING to her so that she'll play along in your revenge game, taking you seriously? Seriously? What's the body count up to now? You. The Children. The Wife. The OM's wife. And now an innocent bystander?

Seriously????

A man can be strong without doing that.

He can show his wife the door and let her know time's up. No begging, no fearing that she won't take him back. Everyone who ever recovers their marriage eventually reaches this state - that they don't have to be married that badly anymore.

But DMD - the dating - that's just sleazy to go the route you advocate.

Strong. Yes. Absolutely.

Cheating on the cheater? No WAY!


from here


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Lil] #156914
09/13/11 04:56 PM
09/13/11 04:56 PM
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Don Man Don Offline
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I don't know if I would call it revenge as much as loneliness and sadness.

I was reading a thread and there was a statement that went something like this, When she talks to me, I stop what I am doing, look at her and I listen. That's a 180 for me.

WOW. Makes me wonder what it must be like to have been that lonely. To come home from work and want to talk about my day and be ignored. To want to be held but instead cry myself to sleep. And not be heard when I tried to explain my sadness. Would I jump at the opportunity to be loved by someone that wanted to show me love?

Is it "wrong" to want to be loved in a way that makes you feel good about yourself and the person you are with? Is it a woman's place to stay with a man that would rather kiss the bottle than her? How many times does she need to be kicked while she is down until she realizes that any other life is not an option?

I am sorry it is the way it is and that some are hurt and angry and do not open their eyes to how neglectful they were until it is to late. But at some point people realize if they want to be happy in a relationship they need to be with someone that wants to be with them. And it happens.

Re: Revenge Dating [Re: Lil] #156936
09/13/11 05:27 PM
09/13/11 05:27 PM
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I'm not sure if I've seen many cases of "revenge dating" in the time that I've spent on DB and MA. Nor have I seen many cases of people dating while there was a serious intention to reconcile.

What does happen sometimes is that the LBS/BS recognizes that the M is OVER (which it is once one person has broken vows and no longer acts married in any way). Once the LBS/BS detaches sufficiently and starts to move on with life including dating others...sometimes the WAS/WS turns around and seeks reconciliation. That process has nothing to do with revenge or manipulation. It's completely sincere on the part of the LBS/BS and it's based on reality, which is that one cannot be married by oneself even if one is holding a piece of paper that asserts one's legal rights as a married person. Once the LBS/BS has truly been "fired", it's over. In that case reconciliation really means starting from scratch after both people have abandoned the marriage and its commitments emotionally.

Originally Posted By: Marlowe
Engaging in self-destructive behaviors does not further that agenda, even if they do feel like they bring temporary relief. Putting one's self in a position to get tied down to unfit/unhealthy partners because that's the only pool available at the time falls on the same level as using alcohol or other mind-altering substances[1] to cope.
I have read the arguments many times that dating during separation is inherently self-destructive and/or limits one to undesirable partners. I have to say that my own observations of people IRL, on the forum, and my own experiences do not validate these assumptions. Separated people are hugely variable in their emotional health and levels of baggage and their relationships and ability to attract partners reflects that.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Revenge Dating [Re: flowmom] #265079
11/17/12 02:36 AM
11/17/12 02:36 AM
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Lil Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I'm quickly injecting my view here, and yes without reading this whole thread.
My first post on this thread, after reading a part about encouraging 'dating', is the part that I referred to as disagreeing with.

I can see by skimming through that I'm not the only one who this does not make sense to.

1) Commit to attempting R or commit to D ..... do a fine job with one or the other.
If you are focused on rebuilding, that is where your focus will be, same with D.
There is less floundering back and forth....one plan, one goal at this time. (until more info tells you different)

2) Thoughts lead to feelings ...... if you are dating it is quite possible that you will
develop feelings for OP, and vice versa. EN's will be getting met.
You are now having an A of your own.

3) Vows, how important are they to you ....... the WS breaking those vows should not have any bearing on your commitment to them, unless your commitment was weak to begin with.

4) Head games ....... this tit for tat, 2 wrongs making a right, this is manipulation.
A spouse returning to the M from this manipulation is likely to return for the wrong reasons and R could be short lived.
Are they returning cuz they see a better alternative or are they returning cuz they think that some OP might have their spouse.
Recovery is hard, a sincere desire to rebuild the M with BS is a must.

5) Both spouses now need to deal with infidelities ..... both are hurt, feel betrayed.
Both now will have to deal with the guilt and shame of stepping outside of the M.

6) The kids ....... how does a BS show that adultery is a vile act if they themselves are stepping outside of the M???

7) Mixed message to WS ..... a WS can easily ask .... is the BS sincere about rebuilding if they are out dating OP.

These are the ones that I come up with off the top of my head.



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