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***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** #39497
12/23/10 03:43 PM
12/23/10 03:43 PM
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Many have angrily uttered "I'm gonna give them a piece of my mind." mad

Unfortunately, I did that too often and over the years I gave away too many pieces. crazy

Not only did I nearly lose my mind, but we nearly destroyed our marriage.

Mark has started a How to Recover your Marriage thread in the Construction Zone and inspired me to start my own Recovery thread. Because many relevant parts are already posted on page 3 of my blog I'll provide links instead of reposting them here.

My story is nearly unbelieveable. In fact many question if I've made it up for whatever reason. What's important, however, is that WE get to live it so I don't waste much time trying to appease the naysayers.

My hope is that by sharing our heartaches and successes, at least one couple might be inspired to make the effort to put the broken pieces of their marriage back together. Comments and questions are welcome at any time.

Here is one of Mark's posts that inspired this thread:

Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Originally written in June of 2008, this is a general list of advice for those wishing to restore their marriage after an affair. Some of it applies to the cheater and some to the cheated. Some aspects apply to both sides of the marriage. It is based in part on an article that originally appeared on WebMD.com and since I lost the specific link long ago, I don't know if the article still exists.



Ten Steps to Recovery:

1) "You have to stop the affair," says Jamie Turndorf, PhD, a couple's therapist in New York. "You can't reinvest in the marriage if you have one foot out the door."

2) Remember that there will be ups and downs after an affair. "The road to recovery after an affair is jagged, and that is completely normal," says Michele Weiner-Davis, author of Divorce Busting, The Divorce Remedy and The Sex Starved Marriage.

3) "The person who had the affair needs to be willing to discuss what happened openly if the betrayed spouse wants to do that." (Weiner-Davis)

4) "The person who had the affair has to be willing to be accountable for his or her whereabouts, even though he or she thinks that may be unfair." (Weiner-Davis)

5) "There needs to be a willingness to make promises and commitments about the future, that an affair will not happen again." (Weiner-Davis)

6) The betrayed person should set the timetable for recovery. "So often the person who cheated is eager to put the past in the past, but he or she really has to honor the other person's timetable." (Weiner-Davis)

7) "The person who had the affair should examine the personal reasons for straying and what needs to change to avoid temptation in the future." (Weiner-Davis)

8) As for moving forward, both people in the relationship should take responsibility for building a new foundation. "Both people in the relationship should ask the other what he or she can do to rebuild the connection and what actions should be avoided because they are breaking it," says Turndorf. "Even the person who was cheated on should say to him or herself, "What role did I play in driving you away and what can I do to make you more connected to me in the future?"

9) Try marriage therapy or take a marriage education class. "You really need to find a counselor or therapist who is pro-marriage, and can help get your relationship back on track," says Weiner-Davis. "Steer clear of therapists who see infidelity as a marital death-sentence "it isn't."

The original article had the above nine steps to recovery listed. I add this one:

10) Develop a plan to restore the love to the marriage. It needs to be a plan to improve intimacy and passion and not just commitment. It will be what happens from now on rather than what you do with the past that will matter most. You can't fix what happened, but you can fix the relationship so it doesn't happen again.

It is the discussion of developing this plan to repair the marital relationship that I am hoping for in this thread.


After 32 years of a dysfunctional marraige, 2 years of progressive disconnection (how's that for an oxymoron) and my H becoming a WH when he chose to have his needs met via OW, I was actually glad I had my "get out of jail free" card.

But I changed my mind when challenged to fight for our family.

After 4 false recoveries, my H decided to change when I finally gave up. He said he'd do anything to help me heal.

I asked my H what made the difference in his choosing to want to begin recovery and how we got started.

His answers:

Learning about Emotional Needs and Love Busters gave him hope that I could change so that made him want to make changes he needed to make, too.

IMVHO, the book Fall In Love, Stay in Love by W. F. Harley, Jr. provides the best plan for beginning and continuing recovery from a marital dysfunction with or without infidelity. In fact, FILSIL barely mentions infidelity.

The first and third statements I've bolded could be answered by FILSIL.

The second is where we were lucky; we have had an awesome MC who we originally sought help from about 25 years ago but lost touch with him for about 10 years. Coincidentally (or by divine intervention) we reconnected with MC about the time we really needed IRL help with beginning rebuilding trust and beginning recovery. (Details in my blog on page 3 mostly.)

It's been 4 and a half years since D-day #1. In piecing our marriage back together, our sitch is unique in that we had many broken pieces on the day we married and they shattered even more during the decades.

The Marriage Builders books helped us begin to recover but I received additional support when I discovered the MB discussion forums in January 2007. The subsequent history will be posted eventually and I hope to chronicle future accomplishments on this thread.

Although we've had many ups and downs like others on this Recovery Rollercoaster, we are building a better marriage than we ever dreamed of having before. As I mentioned, comments and questions are welcome at any time.

Thanks for reading,
Ace

ETA Please check out Mark's developing thread The Road to Recovery; Getting the Marriage You Want

Ace's Blog spACE cadet gazette page 3

Last edited by Ace; 12/23/10 04:01 PM. Reason: add links to Mark's thread and my blog page 3

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #39900
12/24/10 08:08 AM
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Hi Ace.

It certainly helps to work on the puzzle when you finally have the "big picture" on the cover to show you what it's "supposed to look like!"

Completers. Relationship with God. The First and Second Greatest Commandments as the Standard.

Love never fails.

God bless.


In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: ForeverHers] #39924
12/24/10 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
Hi Ace.

It certainly helps to work on the puzzle when you finally have the "big picture" on the cover to show you what it's "supposed to look like!"

Completers. Relationship with God. The First and Second Greatest Commandments as the Standard.

Love never fails.

God bless.


Hi FH,

Thanks for your encouragement now and back then on MB. You have been a true blessing to DH and me and we both appreciate your assistance with our spiritual growth.

You are right, as usual, in that God has had his hand on our relationship from the beginning. When all seemed lost, God miraculously touched both of our hearts and subsequently gave us the resources for knowledge (info) and wisdom (discerning use of info) and actions (results of wisely using info in productive ways) to start our recovery.

I think that one of the more poignant miracles was when I was searching for MC and God had our MC from our earlier years call my work facility at a time that I happened to be walking past the front desk phone which I seldom answered. He called for a totally unrelated matter (says he didn't even know I was still working there) but it gave me the opportunity to seek contact information so we could set up an appointment with him.

Many more things like that happened which you've inspired me to write about here eventually. Again, thanks for your care and support, FH. You're a blessing to many more than you know.

Merry Christmas,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #40398
12/26/10 02:13 PM
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I found more missing pieces.

What an amazing experience.

I've decided to post events that enhance our recovery on this Recovery Thread and post simple events on my blog. It may take me a while but I will get things sorted out soon.

As I mentioned on my blog, while my H was working in a challenging job 15 years ago, he related many intriguing stories to our then-teenaged DS and DD. They listened intently and H promised to write a book with a certain title related to these stories.

Yesterday, H finished the 20 page booklet and asked me to help him edit it.

That was a major missing piece from yesteryear; in the past, H would be offended if I mentioned a typo or errors of any kind.

As I was getting ready to print a copy, the cartridge holder on our 7 year old injet jammed (DS later discovered a broken piece so it may be toast).

I calmly emailed the word doc to our old PC attached to our 19 year old HP laserjet 4P (anyone still have one of these relics)? The fact that I stayed calm was another missing piece.

Unfortunately, the timing prevented me from completing the editing DH wanted in order to to give it to DD and DS as soon as they arrived.

Subsequently, I was unable to finish reading his stories until late last night.

Oh My Gosh!!!!! eek

I had no idea H was experiencing any of the life or death events described in his writings. I missed a ton of pieces by being disconnected and resentful for all those years. What an amazing man I was married to....and I didn't even realize it!

I'm so glad H could talk with the kids back then. They were very appreciative of his writing down what he committed to do years ago. They thought he had forgotten.

And I had no idea about his experiences, his telling the kids or his promise to write a book for them.

Sheesh!!!! What other missing pieces are on the horizon yet to be discovered!?

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #40757
12/27/10 02:30 PM
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We had a wonderful Christmas with our immediate family in spite of medical challenges with our extended families.

One of the coolest things, however was something that happened to reveal another of my missing pieces which enhances our recovery.

As mentioned in my blog linked in my sig line, one of my reasons for getting married (in addition to NOT wanting to be left behind) was because this guy had a true heart commitment to make a difference in the lives of others, one of the 3 traits on my list or spouse requirements.

I'll probably tell the story on my blog (where I have more editing time) but I'm putting this here to remind myself to share the story of how my H demonstrated that trait once again on Christmas Day.

Seeing what happened enhances our recovery by reminding me that this 'piece' of our marital history is still intact (in spite of its being mis-used ~ missing ~ for a bit 4 years ago). This latest episode fills the Love Banks a lot more...which is always a good thing in recovery.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #48024
01/09/11 09:57 PM
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Here's the Christmas Day story I referred to above.

*************

A friend from church asked DH to help an elderly friend (mid 80's) who needed H's company product in her home. Because she thought DH had been so helpful and kind, when this lady discovered that her last name was the same as ours, she began thinking of my DH as her son. She lives alone, has no family in the area and only a few friends. For this story I'll call her "G'ma Ace."

In the midst of all our holiday plans with our family, DH mentioned he would like to take me over to meet G'ma Ace, possibly on Christmas day so she won't be totally alone all day long.

I found a card and wrapped a token gift, expecting we'd visit her in the morning before our family members arrived for brunch around noon.

On Christmas day, we slepted in, the kids arrived, we ate, watched a movie (we'd opened gifts the night before) and just hung out as a family. As it got dark, I wondered if DH had forgotten to visit G'ma Ace but I didn't say anything.

As we prepared to go to visit other family members, DH told our kids "We'll be there soon but we're stopping to visit one of my clients who is alone on Christmas."

I was elated. He had remembered after all!

G'ma Ace's house was dark but she answered the door and said she had been napping. We chatted for about a half hour and she told us that she liked being home alone on Christmas because she could feel her husband's presence in the house even if he had passed away over a decade ago.

She was delighted with our card, family newletter and token gift. She seemed to appreciate our admiring her classic decorations. She also said that she had received calls from a few family members wishing her Merry Christmas, but as she hugged us warmly, she said that our thoughtful visit had "made her day!"



Last week, we got a thank you note from G'ma Ace who said that she discovered that her sister had received the same token gift that we had given her and that both of them were enthralled with it: Susan Boyle's Christmas CD entitled "The Gift." G'ma Ace's sister lives across the country but both are enjoying their gifts together. In addition to our shared name, this mutual gift endeared us to her even more.

It was a highlight of our Christmas day to bring such joy to one person with so little effort. That simple act also added deposit$ to my DH's account in my Love Bank. It is one of the few activities we both enjoy doing together.

For me, the natural gift of giving time and thoughts is one of the redeeming qualities of my DH that intrigued me when I first met him (attracted is too strong a word considering our nebulous beginnings). In spite of our dysfunctional relationship, H often showed he cared about the needs of others continuously (sometimes to a fault) throughout the years.

Of course, one of those "faulty times" was when OW had needs her H wasn't meeting and my then-WH picked a poor time to exercise his altruistic tendencies ~ what started out as Phileo love became Agape love and eventually they both THOUGHT they were soulmates involved in Eros love with all the erotic trappings. Thankfully we are well on our way to overcoming that huge discretion in the midst of all our other challenges during our disconnected years together.

Experiencing DH's "random acts of kindness" now with people like G'ma Ace reminds me of the times he did similar things when we first met nearly 40 years ago. As described in my blog linked to my sig line, it is one of only 3 traits I desired in a spouse. We both made impulsive (and sometimes planned) outreach efforts on behalf of others back then and still do.

This is one of the pieces to our marriage that diminished for a brief time but has been re-emerging lately. Not only does this bring us both intrinsic personal rewards but it improves our relationship, enhances our marraige and helps us recover.

Thanks for reading,
Ace






We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #48077
01/09/11 11:49 PM
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That's a sweet story, Ace. I can easily see how your H's altruism made big deposits in your love bank! Bless his heart.

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: right here waiting] #50301
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Thanks, RHW.

This really does help in our recovery. :9:

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #74986
02/27/11 01:21 PM
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I found another missing piece but need to move it from the Way Station.

Here it is, partially courtesy of 2long's post about the difference in secrecy and privacy as well as the differences in truth and honesty. The missing piece is how this relates to building trust after an affair using predictability and reliability as related to truth and honesty.

Here are the posts:


Originally Posted By: 2long in the Way Station on the "Honesty and Infidelity thread ~ how to end an affair" thread.

Originally Posted By: 2Long (from Spacecase's post on iloveulove.com several years ago)

The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today's date, whether or not you're married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you're honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability.

While I think that the difference between secrecy and privacy should be obvious, at least 2 most of the kind of people who've been through infidelity in their own marriages, the distinction between truth and honesty isn't so obvious.

-ol' 2long


Thanks for posting that here, 2L.

You're right. It is easier to distinguish between secret/private than truth/honesty.

For me, my honesty changed. I honestly thought that if/when my H cheated, he would give me emperical evidence that I could justify leaving him.

After it happened and I was challenged to fight for our family, my honesty changed. I honestly began thinking that we could build a better marriage, in spite of 3 more D-Days over the next 6 months.

For now.....nearly 4 years later, that honesty is becoming the truth based on the actions we both have undertaken to build that better marriage we both sought after the A. Hopefully, that will continue to be OUR TRUTHS for the future.

What I've bolded is an 'ahah' moment for me (trust built on truth/honesty, tempered by predictability and reliability) and will require some thought before I comment further. My very first thread on MB asked something like "How do you build trust...or it time the only solution?" (or something like that). I wish I'd read that statement back then.

Again, thanks for posting that here in the Way Station.

Ace

Edited to Add: After I posted my response to 2Longs post, I decided to move it here to my recovery thread as it is more related to a missing piece in our marriage than the core message of that thread.





We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #77614
03/05/11 05:11 PM
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Hey Ace,

After all these years I still keep finding pieces, and think I always will. All part of the journey I suppose. My mom says that life is like a patchwork quilt that we only see some of the pieces, and only God sees how they all fit together to make the whole thing complete. Good analogy, I think.

Thanks for sharing this. It gives me a lot to think about.

Peppermint

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: peppermint] #80070
03/11/11 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: peppermint
Hey Ace,

After all these years I still keep finding pieces, and think I always will. All part of the journey I suppose. My mom says that life is like a patchwork quilt that we only see some of the pieces, and only God sees how they all fit together to make the whole thing complete. Good analogy, I think.

Thanks for sharing this. It gives me a lot to think about.

Peppermint


Hi Peppermint,

Thanks for reading and commenting. I think your mom is a wise person.

I see you're started a thread on this forum so I'll take a peek.

Appreciate your being here on MA.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #96319
04/20/11 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: 2long
The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability.


I have another missing piece.....well, maybe I'm over-reacting and the pieces (truth, honesty, predictability and reliability) aren't really missing but just a bit misplaced.

I've shared on my blog that my H once started a secret business with the divorced wife of a couple we both knew....in fact, I think my H was a groomsman in their wedding a decade before. After they D'd, my H spent time taking their 3 DS's fishing and it was fine with me because if they went with him then I didn't feel guilty because I didn't want to go.

After the failure of the business and H's subsequent A, we lost touch with the woman and her DS's.

Last week, out of the blue, DH informed me that former business partner had called him to purchase a product from DH's company. He told me after the sale (he didn't see her, only spoke with her on the phone) and it was a casual matter-of-fact "guess who called the other day and bought a product?"

Here's the piece I'm missing.....I think. Or maybe not....

Should I have expected DH to tell me as soon as secret former business partner called before he pursued the possibility of a sale? Or was it no big deal....that closing the sale and casually mentioning it after the fact was a sign that it meant nothing other than a step towards his monthly sales quota?

I honestly didn't give it much of a thought until I mentioned it to an e-friend (making an entirely different point) and she asked me why it was OK with me for him to recontact this woman without immediate full disclosure....and I decided I may have missed something.

As far as I know, their secret relationship was non-romantic (the business was started as something the kids could do to keep busy and out of trouble).

I discovered the secret project when I found their joint email account that referenced a Pay-pal account but at the time, we were so estranged (and I was waiting for a justifiable reason to get out of the marriage) that I didn't really care about either. I'm sure I gaslighted him, expecting the business to fail and rubbing it in his face when it died. Shortly after that H was fired from his day job career so he experienced a double whammy jobwise.

Should I revisit the issue of this woman calling recently, reconnecting with DH, purchasing a product and the fact the DH did not mention it to me until after-the-fact?

Or should I just let it go, knowing that the secret business was not a big deal and this woman was just like any other friend who became a client merely because they knew DH could provide a certain needed product.

What, if anything, should I do?

If I bring it up it could set our recovery back (my H often feels like he'll never measure up cuz my bar is so high).

If I let it go, it could cause future regrets that could lead to resentment.

Maybe, maybe not....Should I say something or say nothing?

What do you think?

Thanks,
Ace



We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #96506
04/20/11 08:51 PM
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Mention that your friend has asked "why it was OK with me for him to recontact this woman without immediate full disclosure.."

and say that it was a non event for you, however your agreed upon EP's state that this is something that should be disclosed, and you want to make a plan in case something eventuated again.

That way your mentioning it could be a concern, without making H feel like he's failed in some obscure way.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #96518
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Last week, out of the blue, DH informed me that former business partner had called him to purchase a product from DH's company. He told me after the sale (he didn't see her, only spoke with her on the phone) and it was a casual matter-of-fact "guess who called the other day and bought a product?"

Here's the piece I'm missing.....I think. Or maybe not....

Should I have expected DH to tell me as soon as secret former business partner called before he pursued the possibility of a sale? Or was it no big deal....that closing the sale and casually mentioning it after the fact was a sign that it meant nothing other than a step towards his monthly sales quota?


I'm allergic to your should; in spite of that...

What was the marital boundary you guys agreed on during recovery if there was any contact attempt, either way, by DH or OW? To tell you immediately, with full disclosure?

This was not an OW. What was the marital boundary you guys agreed on for reporting out of the ordinary contact with past or present females?

I think your DH did a something rather extraordinary. He told you about his experience pretty soon after having it. In the past, he wasn't like that...he withheld information, lied by omission and tried to cover up even non-affair related activity.

For me, seems you're asking not if, but when. When is good for you and the marriage? When is acceptable? Because there was a time when if was the question. You've got the if now, predominantly. Now you're working out the when.

Don't let go what you want to go further with...talk it out. His honesty is admirable. Yours will be also. For you and for him. You guys keep growing from this...your fears are yours now...not what DH hides from, most fears in himself.

Match great behavior with great behavior, Ace. You do this so well in so many areas of your life...go further.

LA


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Married 28 years/Together 30
Recovered 10 years
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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: LovingAnyway] #96651
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Thanks for your replies. I'll be back soon to reply specifically but wanted to acknowledge that I appreciate your time and suggestions.

Thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Lil] #96712
04/21/11 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
Mention that your friend has asked "why it was OK with me for him to recontact this woman without immediate full disclosure.."

and say that it was a non event for you, however your agreed upon EP's state that this is something that should be disclosed, and you want to make a plan in case something eventuated again.

That way your mentioning it could be a concern, without making H feel like he's failed in some obscure way.


Great approach, Lil. I will make time this weekend to venture into this discussion, big deal or not.

Thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: LovingAnyway] #96720
04/21/11 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Originally Posted By: Ace

Should I have expected DH to tell me as soon as secret former business partner called before he pursued the possibility of a sale? Or was it no big deal....that closing the sale and casually mentioning it after the fact was a sign that it meant nothing other than a step towards his monthly sales quota?


I'm allergic to your should; in spite of that...

Allergic, eh?...OK, let me rephrase that:

Is it better for our maximum intimacy of our relationship for DH to inform me of renewed contact with this former secret business partner before he pursues a potential sale?


What was the marital boundary you guys agreed on during recovery if there was any contact attempt, either way, by DH or OW? To tell you immediately, with full disclosure? Yep.

This was not an OW. What was the marital boundary you guys agreed on for reporting out of the ordinary contact with past or present females? In the absence of such a discussion or boundary, it obviously defaulted to "share it as part of your 'guess what happened today?' discussion."

One of DH's endearing qualities that attracted me to him initially was his care and concern for helping others. Ironically, this attribute also factored into his E/PA and another budding 'opportunity to help' with a struggling female co-worker who called him at home a couple years ago. After that call and our ensuring discussion, he realized he needed to shore up that EP (extraordinary precaution) and immediately referred the woman to seek help from their manager, which she did.


I think your DH did a something rather extraordinary. He told you about his experience pretty soon after having it. In the past, he wasn't like that...he withheld information, lied by omission and tried to cover up even non-affair related activity.

You're right but I didn't make a big deal about it because it's becoming more of the norm for him to tell me everything, sometimes to the point of overkill....but not that often. Until my e-friend mentioned it, I didn't give it a second thought.

For me, seems you're asking not if, but when. When is good for you and the marriage? When is acceptable? Because there was a time when if was the question. You've got the if now, predominantly. Now you're working out the when.

You're right again, as usual. wink Dh gave me the perfect set-up line last night just before we went to bed (and no time to discuss) so I will bring it up this weekend.

Don't let go what you want to go further with...talk it out. His honesty is admirable. Yours will be also. For you and for him. You guys keep growing from this...your fears are yours now...not what DH hides from, most fears in himself.

Not quite sure how you mean this. Please explain further.

Match great behavior with great behavior, Ace. You do this so well in so many areas of your life...go further.

Thanks for your insights now and over the years.

LA


It's comforting to know that this was NOT and OW. I've wondered about it over the years and now see how she easily could have become a potential OW resulting from DH's desire to be helpful without thinking, a good/bad habit he's had for years.

I can see how our discussion about finding a happy medium and, as you put it "matching great behavior with great behavior" can increase our marital intimacy. DH is finally getting to realize that I challenge because I care, not because I want to find fault for the sake of finding fault (like I used to do for all those decades).

Again, thanks!
Ace



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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #111337
05/25/11 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway

Don't let go what you want to go further with...talk it out. His honesty is admirable. Yours will be also. For you and for him. You guys keep growing from this...your fears are yours now...not what DH hides from, most fears in himself.

Not quite sure how you mean this. Please explain further.


It's been awhile since I wrote that request for an explanation and I may have the clarification I was once seeking.

I just heard a new concept that may describe one way to own my fears, and to realize how DH does NOT hide from my fears. (Still not sure about the end of that sentence "most fears in himself" but I'll progress beyond while I'm thinking about my new tool.

It centers on one word/concept: STORIES

Often fears are merely made up stories loosely based on fiction that we perpetuate with worry, right?

Why not create new stories based on fantasy of what we want, not what we want to avoid?

If we're gonna make stuff up that is not even there, why not make these new stories positive ones with a happy result?

For example, here are the facts of what hapened 5 years ago:

1. DH became WH when he focused on fantasies fueled by a fascination with another female. (Whoooah....pardon the alliteration but it just came out that way!)

2. DH/WH's fantasies destroyed all trust and could have easily resulted in a blown up family.

Story Number One based on possible fiction:

DH became a WH and I will never be able to trust him again so I may as well end it and get the inevitable over with by divorcing him now before he destroys me.

Story Number Two based on fantasy for the future:

DH became a WH and even if it was not my fault, I can contribute towards fixing my half so that together we can not only overcome this indiscretion but build a better relationship and marriage than we ever had before.

*****

Conclusion: If I'm going to expend energy creating stories (made up or real based on MY fears) I may as well focus on positive ones based on fantasies for the future that can provide a reachable goal for us to strive towards and hopefully achieve.

Like I said, this is a work in progress and I haven't ironed out all the wrinkles yet, but the basics are in place.

Does this make sense to anyone? How can you help me refine my new blossoming tool?

Thanks,
Ace


Last edited by Ace; 05/25/11 09:26 PM. Reason: clarification

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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #111406
05/25/11 10:29 PM
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It makes a lot of sense to me. The problem isn't with the concept, but how to implement it. I've thought along the same lines since entering recovery. "Focus on the future" has been my motto along with "Adapt and Overcome!" It takes really making yourself redirect your thoughts, however, and that can be hard if you're in one of those, "I'm so hurt right now" mode - at least for me.

Yes, you definitely have to have your end goals in mind, esp. when facing triggers and what you tell yourself. I believe fully in facing your fears. I allow myself to imagine the worst case scenerio, just so I can figure out how I would live through that and make myself better because of it. Once I've allowed my mind to go down that path, I realize I CAN live through the worse, so it makes it easier to cope with.

It's like, when I hear IdaHO's name, I immediately cringe. Worst fear? When H hears it too (it comes up a lot in movies and tv - very popular name) does it make him think of her? Worst case scenerio: Yes, it does. It makes him pine away and wish he was with her and not with me. A step further: he decides we're not worth it and seeks out OW again.

Can I deal with this? Yes - because I know despite the pain, I could make it on my own. I already faced that down when I asked him to leave.

Solution? I'm not sure exactly, yet. So far, it's to think, "My job is to do my part to make this the best marriage ever...so even if he still thinks of her now, he sure isn't going to in the future!"

Another tool I have is to allow myself only 15 minutes a day to feel bad about the situation. If I trigger, I let myself grieve, cry, get mad, vent, for 15 min. After 15 minutes, I find anything I can to redirect my attention elsewhere. If I have another trigger and I've already had my 15 min. that day, well - it'll have to wait until tomorrow. That way, I don't feel that I'm just avoiding my emotions. It also helps to give time to decide if something is really worth being upset about or addressing with H. Often, when the 15 minute allotted time slot has come around, I don't feel the need to be angry or sad anymore.

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: SunnyD] #111438
05/25/11 11:10 PM
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Wow, Sunny, thanks for your reply and acknowledgement that you can relate.

How to implement?......you're right, that's the hard part.

I like your 15 minute respite you give yourself to be 'real' and how important that may be to the overall process of healing.

It will be good to explore these concepts together. I'm sure that what might work for me may not work for others, but at the same time, what works for you MIGHT work for me but I might not be able to realize it until you tell me about it.

Again, thanks for sharing.

Ace


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #111657
05/26/11 03:04 AM
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Exactly - you never know what's going to really help you until you try. It's always good to hear others' experiences and how they have coped.

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: SunnyD] #141098
07/31/11 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: SunnyD
Exactly - you never know what's going to really help you until you try. It's always good to hear others' experiences and how they have coped.


So sorry I haven't replied to your post here Sunny. Forgot all about this recovery thread.

You're right in that hearing other stories and experiences may (or may not) have an impact in our own relationships.

It's interesting how the discussion regarding "dating while married" has actual implications in our recovery, not in deed but possibly in thoughts and words.

And.....one particular 'event' was all an accident, but it may have had unintentional positive results.

As I've mentioned often, I was looking for my 'get out of jail free' card, hoping my H would cheat but not expecting that any woman would want him.

I was wrong.

H cheated.

He was busted by adult son & daughter and WH confessed to me (while kids sat on the front porch thinking I might go nutz).

I stayed calm, surprising us all, but WH invited kids in anyway.

WH agreed to give me a quick D with everything (including the house and car) transferred into my name.

I accepted.

To our surprise, DS-20-something protested, begging us to first fight for our family before giving up.

I agreed to fight under certain conditions and also pledged that we would NOT speak to our DD/DS-20-somethings about our recovery plans but, like they asked, we would show them actions over time.

WH was plagued with intense withdrawal symptoms and his fog took 6 months (and 3 more D-Days) to overcome. (I never told DS/DD about those.)

How was I able to cope?

The thought that another woman actually wanted H (when I didn't think that was possible) gave me motivation to endure H's lying and hiding after it was revealed to me 3 more times without my snooping.

On D-Day #4 just a few hours after I accidentally saw the History button showed that that H had lied again, we were seated in middle seats of opposite rows on a flight across the country for our 10-day vacation that I held off booking (which is why we only had middle seats - details in my blog).

The guy seated by the window struck up a conversation with me (I never initiate interactions with guys) and we chatted the entire flight.

When we landed, I introduced the guy to my WH and H suddenly became very possessive of me. H denies that my chatting with another man had any affect on him (claims he was sleeping and didn't even notice at the time), which may have been true. But the introduction may have jolted him.

After deciding to continue fighting to recover our M, I did NOT intentionally try to 'use' another man to make H jealous. But what if I had?

IMVHO, it would have been very cruel if the 'window guy' had become interested in me and continued contact, only to discover much later that he was being used to make my WH jealous.

Even if it was unintentional, it did impact our R. Would I suggest anyone else follow my lead?

Heck NO!

But these are pieces of our recovery that came to mind as I watched the "dating while married" discussion develop. Yes, it may work in one respect, but IMVHO it is disrespectful and unethical to "use" another person with feelings and emotions who might possibly be discarded later as collateral damage.

Ace


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #141467
08/01/11 07:50 PM
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Glad to see your post, Ace!

I agree with you, on so many different points! It's good to read yours (and others) experiences and how they got where they are - and what helped.

I too think it's cruel to use someone to make a spouse jealous. I couldn't bring myself to do it. I can't disagree with the fact that sometimes you don't know what you have until you see it slipping away. Yet, I think personal integrity is very important!

I can honestly say that I'm glad my sitch never came to any of that. Interestingly, another woman being interested in my husband didn't make me "jealous" and want him more. When I found out about the affair I was so repulsed.... esp. after I found out that it had indeed been a PA and not an EA only. At that point it was harder for me to want to reconcile because of the lost of respect.


Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: SunnyD] #144842
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Originally Posted By: SunnyD
Glad to see your post, Ace!

I agree with you, on so many different points! It's good to read yours (and others) experiences and how they got where they are - and what helped.

I too think it's cruel to use someone to make a spouse jealous. I couldn't bring myself to do it. I can't disagree with the fact that sometimes you don't know what you have until you see it slipping away. Yet, I think personal integrity is very important!

I can honestly say that I'm glad my sitch never came to any of that. Interestingly, another woman being interested in my husband didn't make me "jealous" and want him more. When I found out about the affair I was so repulsed.... esp. after I found out that it had indeed been a PA and not an EA only. At that point it was harder for me to want to reconcile because of the lost of respect.



So sorry it's taken me so long to reply, Sunny. Thanks for your post.

Your last line (about how much harder it was for you to choose to recover after you discovered that your H's A had progressed to a PA) is something I can't relate to very well. Not sure I could do it but of course we all say that before it happens to us....right?

For me, the EA/PA issue was bad but the continued lies, gaslighting, entitlement and anger during the ensuing 6 months (3 false recoveries) were far worse.

Like I've mentioned often, the two silver threads that kept me hanging on were:

1) WH confessed to an EA 6 months prior about which I would have never known, demonstrating his desire to become open and honest of his own volition.

2) WH made unsolicited comments about how OW was boring, ugly and a worse liar than him...and that she was probably already cheating with some other guy. WH also began to progress to FWH when he stated that he would do anything to help me heal (and then followed through).

Of course, the fact that we have a very tough MC who H respects (and we've seen him at least once a year whether we've needed to or not) has been the biggest aid in our recovery.

And the recovery pieces slowly continue to slide into place.....



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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #144980
08/10/11 04:21 PM
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I'm learning more and more to respect the fact that it was hard for H to come home. He had to be REALLY motivated and love me, and the kids, to do so. For awhile I was focused mainly on my pain - and rightly so. Now, I see more what it took for him. As man, it's hard to humble yourself and admit you were wrong. As women we've been more conditioned to do this and to make peace. He truly had to erase any concept of pride and be willing to face what he'd done to his family. He had to be able to go through the discomfort of looking my brother in the eye again... who he knew had been told about everything. There's a lot he had to face in order to come home. So, that's where I draw my respect for him right now!

I think in the beginning - when they want to come home but are still "entitled" - it's to protect that pride. Luckily my H was out of the house during that phase and it didn't last long. It helps them not face their wrongs when they can still justify it in some way. Makes them feel less of a bad person.

Your H being open and honest was key! Doesn't hurt that he made negative remarks about OW, that's for sure. LOL.

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #181922
11/24/11 02:37 PM
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Hi Sunny,

Sorry it's taken me so long (again) to reply. You're right that H's degrading comments about OW were helpful. After reading your post, I noticed a glaring error in my post prior that I don't want to bug the mods about so I'll just correct it here now:

Originally Posted By: Ace

For me, the EA/PA issue was bad but the continued lies, gaslighting, entitlement and anger during the ensuing 6 months (3 false recoveries) were far worse.

Like I've mentioned often, the two silver threads that kept me hanging on were:

1) WH confessed to an EA 6 months years prior about which I would have never known, demonstrating his desire to become open and honest of his own volition.


The fact that my H confessed this when he did not need to was a tiny thing from his view but it was huge for me in my efforts to rebuild trust. That is an ongoing process....5 years later....but it still sustains me when I trigger over tiny things and pose huge doubts.

I need it now that my H told me that his company is giving him an ipad so he can work mostly from home. <sigh> That's what he was doing when he found OW...working (or trying to find a job) from home.

So the process continues. He has no choice in the matter so I may not disclose how his telling me initially triggered me. It's OK now but I didn't respond immediately when he told me on the phone. Maybe I'll bring it up as a point of progress when we see our MC for our "annual routine marriage maintenance" session in a few months.

Ace


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #182471
11/26/11 07:14 PM
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Oooohhh, Acey, I can feel that trigger all these miles away. How fortunate that it didn't present itself till 5 years into recovery! (I think it's a God thing that it didn't.)

Mr. Ace has wrapped himself in his EPs for so long, I'm thinkin' it will be all right. Pretty sure he's aware that his work-at-home arrangment will give him yet another chance to prove himself trustworthy.

Just watch. You'll see. zen

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: right here waiting] #185190
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Hi RHW,

You're right. I'm watching and seeing how it's going to work out all right.

My H's ipad will not allow him to work from home exclusively after all. Can't go into details here but in discussing the reasons with him, he appreciated my sharing that I like him being able to go to the office. The source of his success can only be found on the work PCs and now that all his co-workers have ipads, H can use a work PC anytime he needs to.

H's commute is opposite traffic so going to the office isn't really that big of a hassle. He's out in the field most of the time anyhow.

Get this: H was gone on our vacation for 2 weeks but his manager used him as an example of a get-it-done guy when H not only met quota but he may have even met bonus-quota as well. It helped that it was one of the few 5-week quota periods but still, being out of the loop for 2 full weeks (and the fact that we got back just before a 4 day holiday weekend) could have been used as an excuse to be a slacker.

H is feeling pretty good about work and vacation right now. Both were major accomplishments and that makes me feel great, too.

Again, thanks for the encouragement.

Ace


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #185471
12/06/11 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
H not only met quota but he may have even met bonus-quota as well.

Last night I discovered that not only did H meet quota and bonus-quota but he was tied for top sales rep for the month while only working 3 of 5 weeks due to our vacation. Amazing.

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #185519
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Originally Posted By: Ace
H not only met quota but he may have even met bonus-quota as well.

Last night I discovered that not only did H meet quota and bonus-quota but he was tied for top sales rep for the month while only working 3 of 5 weeks due to our vacation. Amazing.


Acey, this is fantastic! Yay Mr. Ace!


Chrysalis
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Chrysalis] #187791
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Originally Posted By: Chrysalis

Acey, this is fantastic! Yay Mr. Ace!


Thanks, Chrys...it was fun that he was a real Mr. Ace on our vacation, too.
claps


Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #189117
12/16/11 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
... he appreciated my sharing that I like him being able to go to the office.


Without making a big deal out of H working at home or at the office, I seem to have renewed H's memory to merely inform me when he is going to (or presently is) working at home. It's amazing how this simple act rebuilds my trust in him.

Yesterday, H was stuck in traffic and decided to just go home instead of the office to finish his work. When he called to tell me, I merely said "thanks" and that was that.

Baby steps......<sigh>


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #190748
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Ace, I love how you two are working together as a team on this. Happy holidays, and thanks for keeping us posted!


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: NewEveryDay] #190882
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Thanks, Neddie,

I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and Happy New Year, too!

Ace


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Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #210706
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At the other place I started a thread asking if others ever have an experience I refer to as a "Quick Spigot Syndrome" because it involves a sudden drain of the entire love bank (or love bucket in my case) in one fell swoop.

My guess is because my FWH is on strike 5 and has been for over 5 years, this could be something only I have to deal with. I'll record it here for our annual MC session (whether we need it or not), usually around our anniversary time or the holidays. We were too busy to see MC during the holidays so I guess we'll wait for our summertime anniversary.

While setting up an appt. for our taxes, I went into H's email account to see if he had replied to our accountant but forgot to copy me. I've had all his email access info but seldom check his accounts any longer.

In his "sent" file, I noticed 2 messages to a baseball center so I clicked to see what the discussion was since it had not been mentioned. What I found was something that would affect him, me and our marriage and entire family if he followed through with the potential implications.

I debated on saying anything, hoping he would bring it up.

A couple days later, when the tax appt. came up, I casually commented about the exchange with the baseball center.

H was remorseful about forgetting to mention the discussion, saying, "I'm sorry, you're right, I should have told you at the time."

I replied, "OK, thanks, it was a surprise."

If the discussion had ended there, we would have been fine.

But......

....then he got defensive.

I just sat there as he continued trying to justify his "forgetting to tell me but not hiding it...."

"I didn't delete it."

"You could see it any time if you only looked."

His voice escalated.

"It's no big deal so I didn't think there was any need to mention it."

"I was never going to follow through so there was no need to say anything."

I just sat there as he continued ranting.

"You're not saying anything so I know you don't believe me...do I have to post it on Marriagebuilders or Marriageadvocates or go tell our MC so you'll know I'm telling the truth?"

It brought back memories of his anger and defensiveness during the previous multiple D-Days and I triggered to thinking (but not saying) "What else is he saying to whom that he isn't telling me about?"

And then came the grand finale....

He shouted, "I can never remember everything I'm supposed to do and say."

My love bucket just drained immediately to empty and I felt like I was done.

Then I gave up.

I quietly said, "Y'know, you're right. This is too hard. I have too high of expectations and it's not fair to you. We should end this now so the pressure's off and you don't have to do or say anything any longer."

I meant it and was prepared to follow through if he agreed.

To my surprise, he snapped out of his pity party as quickly as my love bucket had drained and he calmly said, "I do want to do it and say it because I want you, I want us and I want to stay married to you."

I just sat there.....listening.

Surprised him.

He kept apologizing for his outburst more than for his forgetfulness.

My love bank began filling back up but I didn't say anything.

He came over to me, apologized again, kissed me on the head, said he loved me and said he's going to bed.

After he left I just sat there, wondering what had just happened...

I came upstairs to shut the computer down, debated posting this but decided to go to bed.

The next morning, he apologized again and I accepted it and apologized for my part, too.

And the rollercoaster ride continues..... 5 years and counting.

Thanks for reading.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #210724
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Thank you for sharing Ace (((())))


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Squeaky Tree] #210973
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Thanks, ST.

After re-reading the above post, I realized that I posted on Lil's thread (about being too enmeshed) that I was going to ask my DH for his perspective.

I did.

His answer and what happened this week may be related so I'm recording it here in case we don't have anything to talk with MC about during our annual "Marriage Tune-Up" appointment (whether we need it or not) in a few months.


Originally Posted By: Ace #204636 - Sun Feb 05 2012 07:28 AM
Re: Can A Couple Become Too Enmeshed?



Interesting question, Lil.

I've been on both sides of the boat.

Totally isolated for many of our first 32 years of M.

Suddenly, we spent 10 days together 25/8 (yeah, I mean TO.GE.TH.ER. ALL THE TIME including:
Click to reveal..


Of course it was immediately after D-Day 4 when I dropped my rope and he picked it up and began to jump over it no matter how high I raised it.

It was one of the most intense "seasons" of our time together.

Amazing how we have gone on the same 10 day (now more like 15 day ) 'season' and it's really been fun.....great memories, some of the best. No fights. None. Yea!

In line with your question, I wonder how much of an impact the fact that we are NOT together much during our normal working days?

We are facing this now as we are making final plans for retirement (5-8 years from now) so we've been discussing what our days would be like when we no longer have to go away every day.

He knows I would spend more time with MA and I know he will get to go fishing as well as play baseball (now he has to choose and picks baseball). I'll probably go fishing with him, too - thanks Mark! (And I'll bring along my MA smart phone occasionally so we'll both have the best of both worlds.)

I don't have a smart phone yet on purpose but will by then.

To answer your question, I can't really answer it....yet. I like the times we get to spend together because they're so far and few between. If we were :::forced::: to be together all the time, I might feel differently.

He kinda likes me now, at least!

Ace


_________________________


Originally Posted By: Ace


Points well taken, LC. Maybe I'm in denial and need to wake up.

Hmmmmmmm........

I'll ask DH about his perspective. I'll probably be surprised!


_________________________



I forgot about saying Id ask DH whether if he thought its possible to spend too much time doing things with each other. So I asked him on the way to church that morning.

He thought for a moment and then said, Yes but didnt offer any explanation.

I asked what he meant.

I dont want you telling me all the things Im doing wrong all the time.

I got defensive because I honestly did not think I was still doing that. Do I still do that? I may have raised my voice because I was surprised as well as defensive.

Sometimes, and, possibly noting my defensiveness he added, you wanted me to be honest, right?

I wanted to ask for examples because I honestly could not think of a time in the recent few months when I openly said what I had been thinking regarding how he did or did not do things right or wrong.

I decided to think about it and listen to what else he had to say.

He said, For instance, when we got to baseball games, I dont think youd want to go into the locker room with me where all the guys are.

Uh, OK.

And I wouldnt want you with me on sales calls because youd be bored.

The last time we went fishing together, you cried when you caught a fish and insisted we throw it back.

Id forgotten.

I just found the story on Marks Fishing Thread. It apparently happened on April 30, 2008 but I didnt post about it until 6 months later:

Originally Posted By: Ace #2141987 - 10/15/08 08:36 AM
Re: Mark's MB Gone Fishin' Thread


Originally Posted By: Ace

April 30, 2008


************

Thanks for the fishing update, Mark.

We had a great time in the boat, but we caught things like intimate conversation, unleashed laughter, desire to keep fishing, and other fun things not expected. (The seaweed was expected, of course.)

Did anyone read between the tight lines that that's why I said I'd post it on the Smiles thread? No time yet, so I'll at least mention it here since it will be while before I can share details. It was definitely a SMILE!

Happy WEDNESDAY to all except RIF.....Happy Thurs. in a couple hours RIF!

Acey




DH and I were talking about fishing yesterday and bemoaning the fact that we only went out once this season. He asked "Do you remember why?"

I couldn't so I looked back on this thread, the Smiles thread and the Vacation thread and only found the above post.

Apparently, I never did post what happened to cause smiles....but DH reminded me yesterday what it was:

Tears.

Yep.

On opening day last spring, DH and I were having a great time and I caught one but lost it (and then I was glad it got away).

Within a few minutes I hooked another one. As we took the hook out of its mouth, I had a sudden wave of regret/remorse/PMS/hormonal attack wash over me and I looked at the poor little (13 incher) fish and started to cry.

DH didn't know whether to laugh or cry with me.

He started laughing.

It made it worse.

I begged him to throw it back.

We POJA'd that he'd put it on the stringer (off the back of the boat) and if I felt the same way when we were ready to leave he'd release it.

When the battery started to die and we slowed to a near crawl, I noticed that fishy wasn't fluttering around anymore.

I was mortified.

He had died.

I just cried.

But we took him home and ate him for dinner.

The End.


***************

Yesterday when I mentioned that I wished we could have gone fishing more, DH said "I didn't think you wanted to go anymore because the last time, when you caught a fish you cried."

I truly had forgotten.

It's been a traumatic spring/summer.

Maybe next year.....

Acey



No wonder the guy didnt want to take me fishing anymore.

I guess I should take some solace in the fact that he has not been fishing since then either. He plays on 4 baseball teams (while he still can play well) and that is more important to him than fishing for now.

His baseball.

Interesting dynamic.

When he has local games during spring and summer I seldom go watch him play. When his all-star teams go to the World Series across the country, I make all the arrangements and we spend nearly every waking moment together except for actual games/locker room stuff. If I was retired, I think Id go to all his local games with him..but that wont happen for 7-10 years.

He used to only play on 1 all-star team that attended a week-long World Series but his team has expanded to an additional "more mature" division and he is able to play on both, which extends our sports vacation to 16 days. (The older guys call themselves the "varsity" and refer to the younger guys as the "JV.")

Last year I could not leave in time for him to attend the first pre-tournament "JV" work-out but I told him to go a couple days early and Id follow. He insisted we go together so he waited and we took a red-eye flight immediately after my work, even stopping for a layover en route to have lunch with some cyber friends who had helped us save our marriage.

This year, I offered the same thing.
.and he took me up on it.

<sigh>

I probably would have preferred to have him wait and go with me again but I saw how hard it was for him to deal with red-eye flight fatigue plus cross country jet-lag last year so I totally understand his wanting to go on time and Ive booked our condo accordingly. My choice.

Back to this thread topic, Can a couple become too enmeshed?

One definition of enmeshed somewhat relates to my fishing story:

Originally Posted By: Dictionary.com
enmesh
&#8194; &#8194;&#603;n&#712;m&#603;&#643;Show Spelled[en-mesh] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
to catch, as in a net; entangle: He was enmeshed by financial difficulties.


If the meaning of enmeshed for this thread is to be tangled and unable to separate even if they wanted to, then I think the answer is yes, it is possible to become too entangled so one might lose their own identity.

If the meaning is doing things together by choice then it depends on the individual personalities of the couple so the answer could be "yes" or "no."

If the couple are newlywed soul mates who cant seem to get enough of each other then the answer for them might be no.

I think the latter scenario is very rare and realistically impossible for every marriage, but it is something to strive for, if one chooses to do so.

I think this discussion about "spending too much time together" relates to our recent challenge about my DH forgetting to tell me about his discussion with the baseball center.

It's his pattern to do things on his own until he can see a reason he needs to involve me.

My pattern is to want to be involved from the beginning.

Therein lies the challenge....and the solution, as well.

Now, if we could only find out what those solutions are....

....any thoughts?

Ace





We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #211116
02/25/12 11:33 PM
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You ate the fish you murdered!? eek

J/K

I am thinking of changing the name to that thread to something like being too entwined, since what I think is enmeshed, appears to not be what other do.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Lil] #211988
02/29/12 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
You ate the fish you murdered!? eek

J/K



Hi Lil,

Yep, floured it, flavored it with seasonings, fried it, flipped it over and split it (since it was our only catch that day). Once it quit floppin' around in the water behind our boat, it became merely food in my mind....weird, eh? dunno



On to other things....

The following was posted after an incident that happened at our Dave Ramsey class in the spring of 2010 as part of a "Healthy Habits" thread on MB. I'm thinking of starting a similar thread on the <<<Magnify Marriages>>> forum now that KT started a physical healthy habits thread. I thought I'd "park" it here as a segue to a solution to my own question that will affect our marital recovery: Spiritual Aspects

Originally Posted By: Ace #2372076 - 05/12/10 09:12 AM
Re: **Can HEALTHY HABIT$ Help Your Marriage Recover


******* Posted May 12, 2010 at MB (Recovery Forum) *******

Did any of you get my husband's mental-telepathic invitation to visit our living room Sunday night?

I had a meltdown and it wasnt pretty. He said I wish all your Marriage Builders friends were here" (I'm sure to hear the cr@p I was spewing) and I said that I wished they (you) were here, too.

The quick spigot on my love bank drained in one fell swoop and the ensuing emotional tidal wave swept me down Plan D Drive with a detour around Logical Lane into (job) Resignation Road, a dip into Home Sale Place and even a little stop on Suicide Street.

It started with a simple mis-speak on Saturday, followed by an exaggeration, then a stretched truth and finally an outright lie Sunday night at our Dave Ramsey class.

This has happened before but when Ive asked for clarification, he usually jumps up on A Avenue (Assessment, Acknowledgement of ownership, Apology, Amends, Acceptance of forgiveness).

Last night, however, he chose the D Division (Defensiveness, Denial, Diversion, Displaced blame) and it drove me down Plan D Drive. My choice, but a dead end, none-the-less.

It ended almost as simply as it started.

As I was contemplating where to start in my Plan D misery, he suddenly had an epiphany and climbed up to Spiritual Expressway, suddenly becoming a cool, calm, spiritual leader softly explaining how it appeared that the enemy was trying to drive us apart because we are on the verge of major breakthroughs in both our spiritual and financial challenges.

It was if he had regained his previous leadership he has maintained during most of our conflicts over the last 3 years. He apologized sincerely (like I had hoped he would before). As he calmly held out his hand, asking if I would pray with him, I squelched my pride, realizing that he had taken on the firm leadership role I had expected and wanted. And the best part was that I had not forced him into it; when I shut up he had transitioned all on his own!

I extended my hand still hidden deeply in the pocket of my robe, which made him grin. It must have turned up the corners of my mouth, too because he said Its so nice to see you smileI truly want you to be happy and I want to spend my entire life with you because I love you (or something like that.)

So we prayed ... and then (and now) we begin to move on..a little more scarred but a whole lot stronger, too.

**************

Being an emotional eater, trials such as this usually give me a feeling of entitlement and an ensuing eating binge. Fortunately that did not happen this time. I'd like to think that it's because I'm in better control but I'm guessing it was because it happened really fast ~~~ about an hour from "in love, to Plan D, to prayer and back to in love."

Now that our Financial Health is starting down the road to recovery and could take as many years to fix as it took to break, I realize how important our Spiritual Health is to our overall marital recovery, with or without financial health.

I'm embarassed to admit that I did not consider prayer one time in the midst of my meltdown. But I'm grateful that my husband did.

Why and how?

It appears that his Spiritual Habits are healthier than mine because of his choices. Fortunately this is something I can control by choosing to change myself......again. <sigh>

.............................................
###


We need to focus on the Spiritual aspect of our relationship....well, at least I do when these challenges come up.

I'd forgotten about this post but it's helping me now, nearly two years after I initially submitted it.

Ace



We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #244941
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Originally Posted By: Ace on Feb. 24, 2012
At the other place I started a thread asking if others ever have an experience I refer to as a "Quick Spigot Syndrome" because it involves a sudden drain of the entire love bank (or love bucket in my case) in one fell swoop.

My guess is because my FWH is on strike 5 and has been for over 5 years, this could be something only I have to deal with. I'll record it here for our annual MC session (whether we need it or not), usually around our anniversary time or the holidays. We were too busy to see MC during the holidays so I guess we'll wait for our summertime anniversary.



Since we didn't go to MC for our "marital tune-up" during the holidays, I'm glad I posted about this 4 months ago because I'd forgotten about it.

H suggested calling MC a couple weeks ago but we settled things ourselves. Not proud of the way it developed but in the end, it seems to have worked.

Had another "Quick Spigot Drain" episode which, when it happened in the past, I would have stopped talking and suggested we call MC.

Because H suggested it, my LB filled up again to where it seems to have taken care of itself....for now, at least.

It involved another perception indiscretion with H's health. He went to his doctor for an issue before telling me about it.

Why?

Because he said I would have yelled at him like I always do.

When I asked him for specifics, he could not recall one instance of my yelling at him for informing me of something related to health (or about anything for that matter), so he softened and apologized.

But not until after I had spent many agonizing moments searching my suddenly-shattered-memories (of what I perceived to be progress) trying to pinpoint something that may have perpetuated his accusations.

I thought I was making successful efforts at listening and acknowleding without judgements. <sigh>

He eventually admitted that I was/am doing much better and he's not sure why he gaslighted me.

He did offer to call MC in the midst but (here's the part I'm not proud of) I honestly said <at the moment> "why bother?"

Maybe that surprised him....I don't know.

I'm gonna have to dig to find out when the last time we saw MC was because I honestly do NOT remember but I think it's been over a year. So much for our "annual marital tune-up whether we need it or not."

Maybe we don't need it but I hope it's for the right reasons.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #245625
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I'm glad you were able to work things out. It must feel good to see the progress.

Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Lifechoice] #248425
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Thanks, LC.

Progress.

It's a word I use tentatively.


:::KNOCK ON WOOD:::

We may have turned a corner. One thing for sure is that something just happened that resulted in a different dance, so to speak.

In the past, if I accidentally found something that didnt make sense, I would usually freak out and jump to conclusions. I eventually progressed to where I asked H about it and THEN freaked out and jumped to conclusions.

As I posted on July 4th above, Ive progressed (or regressed, depending on your POV) to just becoming indifferent and not caring. H offered to call MC, the first time hes done that since the beginning of our recovery. That may be why our recovery seemed to stall.he quit doing his share and left it up to me to do the heavy lifiting..until our July 4th confrontation.

Heres what happened this week.

I accidentally logged into Hs email account and while there I decided to check his sent box. Two recent messages were to an online company that showed that 1) H had a secret credit card and 2) he had paid for what appeared to be the initial fee for a get-rich-quick scheme.again. (Im very wary of all too-good-to-be-true offers but H likes to check them out and has gotten us burned many times over the years. I decline all, but H was so intent on joining one about 20 years ago that he forged my name on the application. I found out when the company called to verify my date of birth.)

:::Sigh:::

Since H cheated 6 years ago, we have had a commitment to full disclosure of all financial dealings and Ive been working on my efforts to make it safe for H to tell me stuff that may be questionable. Sometimes Ive been successful but other times, not.

This week I had to wait a couple nights before asking H about the emails. I managed to keep my tone inquisitive and not accusatory as in the past. He immediately logged onto his account and said he had won a $100 gift card at work and signed up for a program everyone was doingbut he didnt know why he sent those messages without telling me.

In the past, I might have reacted badly but this time I accomplished 2 things:

I. I. Was. Silent.
II. I. Remained. Expressionless

H put away his Ipad and then came and sat beside me.

I kept my mouth shut and did not grimace one time.

H seemed remorseful and softly said, I am so sorry. I should have told you. I dont know why I didnt.

I said, Do I make it safe for you to tell me?

He said, Its not you, you have been great.its me.

I stayed silent and expressionless whereas in the past I might have pounded him (his term) and pressed him for answers.

He surprised me with I need your help to keep me accountable.

He said that it happened at a time when his work environment was so unstable that we had discussed updating his resume. This option caught him at a vulnerable time when he was afraid hed be looking for a job again and could not adequately provide for his family. The guys at work had said the online option was a sure thing and he was swayed by the thought of being able to create a semi-cu$hion if he was forced to resign like some of his co-workers did.

The last time this happened he had been fired and while looking online for another job, he found OW. I should be grateful that this time he merely used a contest prize to sign up for a fairly harmless online opportunity.

Fortunately, the work challenges were resolved rather quickly but unfortunately H forgot all about the online program and the money he wasted just to see what it was.

I hate that my first thoughts when I find something like this is what else is he not telling me or whats he lying about? I managed to suppress the inclination to ask and the desire to pound him into submission.

The dance steps that are changing relate to:
1. his remorsefulness,
2. his willingness to admit and own his errors,
3. his initialing the discussion to talk openly about solutions,
4. his desire to have me help him overcome his FOO issues with deceptiveness and
5. our mutual decision to help keep each other accountable every day.

I think Im getting a taste of what it might feel like to progress from being IN recovery to being recoverED.

Time will tell.

In the meantime, if anyone knows of an article about the progression from Recovery to RecoverED, please provide a link.

Thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #250248
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Ace, thanks for the snapshot in. I guess I had the idea that once you were in recovery, it was all sweetness and light from there. You keep me grounded, remind me that life still happens. I like how you two are treating one another as teammates to work through it together, viewing the behavior as the adversary, not one another. That's huge.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: NewEveryDay] #250272
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Recovering, recovered, semi-recovered, semi-recovering, almost recovered, almost, recovering, about to be recovered, about to be recovering... and on and on...

For me, as long as each partner is contributing to recovery...

all is as it should be!


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: believer] #251115
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Ace,

This is a fantastic update despite the new challenges. I'll look for an article about the "ed" in recovery smile

In the meantime...I am reading a book that both you and H should share together...it is life changing. In fact, there's a discussion group here talking about it "Leadership and Self Deception". Buy it.

((((((((ace)))))))))


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: star*fish] #251234
08/09/12 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: star*fish
In fact, there's a discussion group here talking about it "Leadership and Self Deception". Buy it.

((((((((ace)))))))))


Thanks for the suggestion and the hugz, Star. I tried to find the discussion on the Program, Forum and Book threads but could not. Could you provide a link? I'll look for the book.

Thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #251235
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It may be time to change the subtitle since it seems we may have stumbled upon some of the missing pieces.

Again, time will tell.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #251292
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May I ask, the kind of dance you do with your husband. How did you personally change yourself to stop this dance?



BW-34
WH-34
Married 10 years
DD-August 2010
Divorced May 10, 2012.
Kids - 7-D, 5-S, and 2 -D
Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #251296
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Hi Acey. The book Star mentioned is from the folks at Arbinger Institute, an organization (it seems to me) dedicated to helping people see themselves really clearly, as opposed to the prism we typically use to justify ourselves in ways great and small. Those folks inhabit a different plane...kinda like the Dalai Lama, to me, anyway.

I haven't seen a discussion on Leadership & Self Deception, but there's one on another one of their books, Anatomy of Peace, here.

All the books from this place lead to the reader's innermost places and encourage review.

I read Anatomy of Peace recently. It's focused on how we betray ourselves in ways great and small. How we "self deceive."

I've started "Bonds That Make Us Free," by C. Terry Warner, one of Arbinger's founders. It seems similar.


Last edited by right here waiting; 08/09/12 07:44 PM. Reason: add book name
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Praying4hubby] #251390
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Originally Posted By: Praying4hubby
May I ask, the kind of dance you do with your husband. How did you personally change yourself to stop this dance?



Thanks for asking, P4H,

I have no time now but will share more over the weekend. In the meantime, feel free to read the link attached to my sig line to see how dysfunctional we were and how far we've come.

Thanks,
Ace

P.S. Thanks for the tips, RHW. Will check into the info soon.


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Praying4hubby] #251587
08/11/12 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Praying4hubby
May I ask, the kind of dance you do with your husband. How did you personally change yourself to stop this dance?



1. After H's A, after our investing over a thousand dollars into a role-playing experience with a soft-MC (who knew nothing about affair recovery), and after multiple false recoveries, I took a long hard look at myself and where I was (as well as where I might be going). I didn't like what I saw.

2. That MC suggested reading Not Just Friends by Dr. Glass and I used that book to try to change my H. Not only did he NOT like it, it didn't work real well.....ahhhh, I mean, it didn't work at all.

3. After a 3rd false recovery, I went to the book store and found Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley and his daughter Dr. Chalmers and we started reading it together. Then we read His Needs, Her Needs....and while reading that, H secretly started playing his/OW's online game, trying to see if she was there and if he could resist her if he found her.

4. After the history button proved that we experienced what I later discovered was a 4th D-Day, I quit trying. Gave up. Told H to leave (actually, he said he'd leave and I said "fine.")

5. As related on my blog linked to the sig line, we were scheduled to leave on a 10 day vacation in a few hours and I gave in when H grovelled for another chance because I had told an elderly family friend that we would visit her and I couldn't bear the thought potential guilt if something happened to her before we were able to visit her again.

6. I gave H an ultimatum. 10 days....change (be truthful and stop anger) or we're done.

7. We read Love Busters by Dr. Harley in our hotel room during our 10 day vacation (except for 10 golden guys baseball games) and I realized that I was committing most, if not all of those love busters. (If I can find a LB book review on MA, I'll link it later.)

8. I discovered the MB web site from the books and started reading there regularly. One day, I stumbled onto the discussion forum and read about Chrisner's journey and was very impressed with a poster named Star*fish and the input she gave him. Plus, Chrisner was downright funny even in his pain.

9. A few weeks later, I registered on the MB forums to seek advice for how to rebuild trust after multiple false recoveries. It took several hours before a poster named Artor answered my original post but that was the beginning of my seeking help to change myself.

10. After discovering that I was a worse gaslighter and passive aggressive spouse than my H, I sought out the posters who seemed to be the toughest to help me change myself. Although she doesn't post here much now, one of the posters who helped me most was LovingAnyway, one of the founders/owners of this site.

In a nutshell, that's what I did. I also swallowed my pride often and admitted my errors and offered apologies and determined to show I was changing. Amazingly, my H began to do the same.

Regarding our "dance" I regularly vented to posters I "met" online via email and the one who helped me see how to change my dance was LifeChoice. She referred me to CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) concepts and those were helpful, too. I learned that we train others on how to treat us by having (or not having) boundaries that we choose to enforce (or not). That's a huge key that opened many doors for change in me and subsequently in my H's choosing to change, too.

There's much more I will possibly be able to add later but that's the start. Again, thanks for asking. It's good for me to re-think our journey and hopefully our experiences over the past 5 years will be helpful to others.

Ace

P.S. The best book from MB for marriage growth IMVHO is Fall in Love, Stay in Love by Dr. Harley.

Last edited by Ace; 08/11/12 03:39 PM. Reason: add link to FIL, SIL review on MA

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #252626
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Although she doesn't post here much now, one of the posters who helped me most was LovingAnyway, one of the founders/owners of this site.


She helped me a lot too. There were changes I needed to make and I was seeing them and working my side of the street. If XH had not been a seriel cheater I think our marriage could have survived.

The line that helped me most with LA was when she said in a post to me, 'I give up.' That stunned me...made me see that I was being stubborn to my own detriment.

Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: Ace] #252891
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Quote:
I hate that my first thoughts when I find something like this is what else is he not telling me or whats he lying about? I managed to suppress the inclination to ask and the desire to pound him into submission.


Good for you Ace! All we can do is hope someday our H's "get it" that even a small thing hidden is a big deal in terms of trust, but since we can only control our end of it, how we react is going to be the key.

Quote:
Regarding our "dance" I regularly vented to posters I "met" online via email and the one who helped me see how to change my dance was LifeChoice. She referred me to CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) concepts and those were helpful, too. I learned that we train others on how to treat us by having (or not having) boundaries that we choose to enforce (or not). That's a huge key that opened many doors for change in me and subsequently in my H's choosing to change, too.


So glad I decided to read here this morning because I was just thinking about dance steps and how occasionally I fall back to my old ones that aren't very helpful in my marriage.

It serves as a reminder that even though both Docp and I have changed our steps it is still possible to go back to doing things the old way. We both then need to regroup and work on getting it right again. I say that because that is what I saw you and your DH did in what you posted about the emails. When he fell back on his old ways, you reacted differently hence having him respond differently. For me, lately I find myself responding my old way to things he does.

Early on in changing the steps I remember it being very frustrating when I changed my steps and he didn't respond the way I wanted him to smile. Now that we have been at this a while he knows the drill. What I have found lately is it's me falling back on some of my old ways of reacting to things he does and I need to work on my dance steps again. The nice thing is being able to recognize the unhealthy steps, acknowledge them to him and get it right next time.

Re: *** "Quick Spigot" Strikes Again*** [Re: star*fish] #252892
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Originally Posted By: star*fish
In the meantime...I am reading a book that both you and H should share together...it is life changing. In fact, there's a discussion group here talking about it "Leadership and Self Deception". Buy it.


I think I need to read this too. My library has it in print and ebook formats. I will be downloading it today.

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Praying4hubby] #255877
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Originally Posted By: Praying4hubby
May I ask, the kind of dance you do with your husband. How did you personally change yourself to stop this dance?



Hi P4H,

I just read your update on your thread and appreciate your asking about our dance. Hope you saw that I replied, even if it was on a subsequent page.

Hey SW and LC,

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to you both.

"I give up" are stunning words to absorb, SW and they were useful in helping my then-soon-to-be-X choose to change.

LC, how's the dance going? I'm going to look for the Leadership & Self Deception book soon. Did you download and read it yet?

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #260034
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55/4600

Got an Amazon gift card so I'm looking forward to ordering the Leadership & Self-deception book. Anyone else in the process of reading it?

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #261052
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B just posted an article from the Surviving Infidelity website entitled The Life Boat which gave me a new "Ah Hah" moment.

I've been told that many doubt my story which I've shared on MB and here on MA. Since it's the truth, I don't really care if it seems unbelievable since we get to live it when many never get to experience recovery.

At times, I wonder how we ever got started on the road to recovery given our rocky history and the massive self-irritants (my own made-up term to describe the level of passive-aggressiveness and gas-lighting) in which we were both engaged.

How did we endure the past 6 years without anti-depressants, group therapy or professional intervention?

Two, now 3 resources: MB, MC, MA...in that order.

First, though, the Life Boat illustration revealed one major reason our scenario was different from most garden-variety betrayals.....well, actually there are two reasons:

H's betrayal was emotionally charged but the sexual aspect was limited to the non-physical-contact kind. They only engaged in e-sex and phone sex and never met each other in person because we live across the country from OW/OWH.

Secondly, my mindset was unlike most betrayed spouses. Like the scripture (Romans 4:17) says "call things which be not as though they were," I was hoping my H would cheat so I would have a justifiable reason to dump him.

Honestly, I'm not sure I could have taken the challenge to fight to recover our family had my then-WH physically consummated his fantasy with OW. My guess is that OW used that fact to deny she was a cheater to her BH. I'll never know and I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I am curious to know if they are still together. Shortly after we began recovery, my H said OW was probably already cheating with some other guy. At the time, that unsolicited comment was of some comfort.

So how does this "Ah Hah" moment affect our recovery?

It provides part of a missing piece, one explanation of how I've been able to endure without taking anti-depressants. If I had been blindsided by betrayal news that I neither expected nor wanted, my mindset would have been far different. At times, I'm embarrassed to say that H's E/PA was wanted but it was far from expected.

It also gave (and still gives) me a source of confidence that allowed me to issue an ultimatum that has produced positive results so far. The fact that my H knows I can AND WILL follow through makes our ultimatum successful. IMVHO, poor planning and lack of perceived potential or determination to follow through will doom an ultimatum.

***

On a related note, a good memory is usually an asset....except when it comes to overcoming triggers. Many moons ago in another world, my friend ohmy_marie suggested that I reclaim those triggers instead of trying to forget them. The idea as I understood it was to re-experience triggers from a different perspective. Marie and others said that the new memories of formerly bad reminders will overshadow the trigger so it can be reclaimed.

Tomorrow is the date of the Broadway production of the soundtrack CD that OW sent to then-WH which he never cared to open. In fact I sent it back to OW in the delayed exposure packet to OWH over 5 and a half years ago.

I've heard that the show is one of the best and I'm looking forward to seeing it with DD-30-something. Neither she nor H have any idea how difficult this process is but I'm looking forward to it nonetheless.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #262458
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Had another mini-breakthrough in our recovery. This deals with the "need-to-know WHY?" issues which are often unanswerable.

H got a call from a friend we haven't heard from in years $eeking help. I suggested we contact the friend's wife who we discovered had D'd the friend several years ago because he wouldn't quit lying amongst other reasons.

I asked H what finally convinced him to quit lying, hoping he might be able to relate to this friend but not expecting he would have an answer.

But he did!

He said, "I just realized that you and kids were more important than my need to lie so I quit lying."

He also said that when I made it safe for him to tell the truth (by not going nutzo every time), it made it easier.

The difficult part for me was whenever he screwed up (and I discovered it before he admitted it), I bit my tongue when he finally got around to confessing and apologizing.

By my confessing and apologizing when I messed up, H and I were (and are) increasingly able to remain intimate and in harmony....for most of the time.


Regarding the triggers from the musical we attended 2 weeks ago, things were fine. DD and I had a great time. I still don't like the title and some of the themes but the production was exceptional and well received. Now I have new memories of the event and can listen to the soundtrack without any pain. YEA!


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #263144
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Hi acey

Great to hear this update, you do have a strange and wonderful story and I love how you keep moving together.

How are the healthy habits? (if that isn't a TJ)


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Squeaky Tree] #263163
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Originally Posted By: Squeaky Tree

How are the healthy habits? (if that isn't a TJ)


Thanks for asking, ST and your question fits in with some new pieces in our recovery that were not a part of it when I started this thread.

I can't share specifics on a public forum but if anyone else is interested, let me know and I'll include you when I PM health challenge details to ST tomorrow.

Acey


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #263175
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my helth chalenges mean i have to use a wreles keybrd but battries are dead. sorry my one finger blindd typing sucks...will get datteries and post tonite

Last edited by Ace; 11/04/12 02:51 PM. Reason: 60/5055
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #265607
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Originally Posted By: Ace
my helth chalenges mean i have to use a wreles keybrd but battries are dead. sorry my one finger blindd typing sucks...will get datteries and post tonite


Sorry I forgot to return as promised.

I did find something that relates to our recovery.

Originally Posted By: Ace on the MB recovery forum in August 2007

Ace_in_bucket Member (Reged: Jan 14 2007 ~ Posts: 1373
Re: *****TRIALS and SMILES***** Epiphanies produce insights with new "AHAH!" moments #3289988 - Fri Aug 10 2007 07:17 AM


Gotta post these epiphanies before I forget them. (If that happens, I guess they wouldn't have actually been epiphanies, would they???? )

MC said:


Quote:


"Own it, state your fear"

"Choose which path you want to take"

"Quit holding your husband hostage to the past."





He said I did a good job owning my fears (lawn incident).

Then FWH said he often got discouraged when I triggered and seemed to just give up.

Actually, when I misperceived his "lack of proper reaction" (or he did NOT react like I EXPECTED him to) I would keep trying to get the "proper reaction" by increasing my 'ugliness'.....and just blame it on 'a trigger'.

Last week, (before the lawn incident) I actually said things that even I could not believe came out of my mouth. We had a 'discussion' about a family matter that H seemed to minimize (in my eyes) and when I asked him nicely about it (or so I thought), he got defensive, sarcastic and short with me...~~~~>trigger<~~~~~like last summer when he was still connected to that OW but doing and saying all the right things to me.

I said "Just get it over with....go ahead, reconnect with her so I don't have to wonder anymore."

FWH said that it hurts him when I do that and he slides back into thinking that nothing he ever does will ever be good enough....that my bar of approval is too high.

MC did not flinch.

He merely said, "Picture a pool of sewage, a scummy, broiling, gunky mass....

That's what your A has created...

...Her trigger is like a stick, stirring up the gassy sediment on the bottom....which then has to erupt on the top in a stinky, foul bubble that permeates the air.

Has to happen....it's inevitable.

So ya do the same thing you do with any other unpleasant odor.....excuse yourself, wave it away and it hope it dissapates quickly. It will go away harmlessly.....eventually....if you quit stirring."


Epiphany #1: QUIT STIRRING THE SEWAGE AFTER OFF-GASSING.

MC said I may off-gas (sounds gross but it's true) for the rest of our marriage.....should decrease with time but could happen. I will try to off-gas on MB...right here on this thread. Even if no one reads it, at least I'll get the hot stinky air out so there's less to stir with Mr. Romance. (And if ya do read it and I deserve tubing, I trust you will care enough to tube me. )

Epiphany #2: QUIT HOLDING FWH HOSTAGE TO THE PAST.

If I want a better future, I need to quit referring to the past. I think I got it, LA! Mr. Romance giggled and chuckled at my attempts to twist my usual 'negative warnings' into 'positive projections'. AAAAANNNNDDDD, he is now making an effort to change things about his reactions, too.

Epiphany #3: CHOOSE MY PATH OF PREFERENCE:

I decide my future....even if the foundation was set without my approval. If I don't want the results of the past, I (and only I) choose not to go there.

Epiphany #4: REINVENT MY LIFE TO PURSUE MY PASSIONS AND USE THEM TO INSPIRE OTHER PEOPLE.

My passions involve becoming a godly woman, wife & mother; using my gifts to my potential; leaving a legacy of love.

Specifically, marriage, media, financial literacy education.

I've had a vision of being out of debt even when we reached (?) 6 figures. Then I've seen us using this 'miracle' to inspire others. By the end of summer, (yikes only 3 weeks) I'm praying I'll have something to report on this vision.

In the meantime, I've started a GQII thread AFFAIR$ $UCK, hoping to help lurkers visualize what their fleeting moments of pleasure may actually produce in the big picture BEFORE they take the "A" train to "Betrayedville" and end up in financial h@\\.

Also...that thread will give us off-ga$$ers a chance to stir our pot$ here on MB instead of with our spouses.

MC/FWH decided together that we will see MC in 6 weeks (not 2 or 4.....gasp!). I just realized that that impulsive 'gasp' was an act of clinging to the past.

Fear.

Check that statement. I'll try again:

I am grateful and honored that my FWH and I are growing so strong in our love for each other that we get to fly with our new wings for 6 whole weeks without MC's net.

Ace
August 10, 2007, one year after D-Day #3

*****

This list of epiphanies was something I vaguely recalled in our early recovery and I'm happy that I found it accidentally so I could add it to this collection of missing pieces that are falling into place.


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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #276230
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Yea! I've been challenged on the peer counseling forum thread. I'm moving my response to my own recovery thread so as not to TJ Lil's and FH's discussion thread....again.


Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
Originally Posted By: Ace

I vowed to love my husband but that love dwindled over the years to the point that I wanted him to cheat so I had a justifiable reason to divorce him. Justifiable by whose measures? The Bible.


I would disagree with this. What appears to have been happening is an attempt to USE the Bible to mean something different than what it says. That sort of thing is done frequently by some people who want to "justify" their actions while ignoring what the Bible says "in toto." It is, in effect, taking a verse out of the context of the entirety of Scripture to "make it say what I want it to say." It is just another form of attempting to blame someone else for our actions, our wants and desires, so that we can "feel better" when the "deed is done" and we are divorced.

In short, like most things, it's just looking for a "viable" excuse to rationalize and justify behaviors we are choosing or have already chosen.

Of course, if someone is not a believer, anything the "Bible says" would be unimportant anyway, so these comments are by necessity restricted to those who profess to be believers.


This may be true in many aspects of our case. H's lying, gas lighting and passive aggressive behaviors were more than I could handle after decades of trying everything to get help. H would go with me to MC but do the opposite of what he said after we left the session. We read books, listened to tapes, watched videos, did MC, IC, attended retreats, (and advances), marriage workshops, marriage conferences and marriage classes. Ironically, it was at a huge one-day marriage seminar that H's condescending attitude and emotional abuse became overwhelming and I gave up. I secretly began to get my ducks in a row to start over in my early 50's.

Two years later, H cheated and we had massive withdrawal to deal with which led to 3 subsequent false recoveries over the next 6 months. After reading Surviving an Affair by W. Harley, I found the MB web site and subsequently the discussion forums.

After posting on MB, I learned that I, too, had been passive aggressive and I needed to change.

Once I starting changing, H became inspired to make choices to change, too. We both had been waiting for the other to change, and, like FH said, justifying our own behaviors we had already chosen. We also blamed each other for the resulting dysfunction. What a viscous cycle.

This is a never-ending journey but I look forward to learning more and more as we go. Thanks for your challenging input, FH.

Ace


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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #277235
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Anytime, Ace, especially if you find it helpful to you.


In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

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Ace how did you change to address your husbands passive aggressiveness? What I read on this is they have the maturity level of a teenager so trying to reason with them and get them to care for you is difficult unless you give them something first. Did you have to give into your husbands demands, independent behavior and selfishness over a time period before he turned himself around? How does one change themselves around this kind of wayward when it is emotionally exhausting to the spouse? It can make sane person turn to drinking to deal with this kind of cruelty.

Last edited by Praying4hubby; 02/03/13 04:49 PM.

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Divorced May 10, 2012.
Kids - 7-D, 5-S, and 2 -D
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Praying4hubby] #277968
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Originally Posted By: Praying4hubby
Ace how did you change to address your husbands passive aggressiveness? What I read on this is they have the maturity level of a teenager so trying to reason with them and get them to care for you is difficult unless you give them something first. Did you have to give into your husbands demands, independent behavior and selfishness over a time period before he turned himself around? How does one change themselves around this kind of wayward when it is emotionally exhausting to the spouse? It can make sane person turn to drinking to deal with this kind of cruelty.


Hi P4H,

To answer your first question, "I didn't." I changed to make my self a better person, NOT to address my H's PA behaviors.

He noticed.

He liked the changes in me.

Then he chose to change.

Will reply more later but that's the difference.


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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #277969
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Originally Posted By: Ace


Hi P4H,

To answer your first question, "I didn't." I changed to make my self a better person, NOT to address my H's PA behaviors.

He noticed.

He liked the changes in me.

Then he chose to change.

Will reply more later but that's the difference.


I'd be very interested to know more about this as well, since this is something I am definitely dealing with. What did you change about you first? How did this progress? Did you get much "pushback" when you changed things that affected him?


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
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Originally Posted By: Praying4hubby
Ace how did you change to address your husbands passive aggressiveness? What I read on this is they have the maturity level of a teenager so trying to reason with them and get them to care for you is difficult unless you give them something first. Did you have to give into your husbands demands, independent behavior and selfishness over a time period before he turned himself around?


I'm not Ace, but I hope it's ok if I jump in here. I would think "giving in to their demands, IB and selfishness" would be the exact *wrong* thing to do. I would advocate firm boundaries, giving respect but expecting to be treated with respect. If you don't respect yourself and expect to be respected, others won't respect you and they won't feel attracted to you.


42.
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Miranda] #278275
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Originally Posted By: Miranda
What did you change about you first? How did this progress? Did you get much "pushback" when you changed things that affected him?


Hi Miranda,

So sorry so pressed for time. Hopefully I'll be able to write more over the weekend.

The first thing I changed about ME was that I realized that I needed help and sought it.

The second thing I changed was that I listened to (and did NOT discredit) the things I was hearing from the folks from whom I had requested help. (I force-ably had to strike the word "....but..." from my vocabulary during this process.)

Jayne's response to P4H answers another part of my changes. The concept of boundaries to protect myself were new to me. That was an important step.

As far as pushback, I didn't notice it as much because my motivation was to change for me, not change "for him." I became a better person in other aspects of my life that did or didn't involve him.

As far as the progression, it's ongoing. It is a lifetime change that is a journey, not a destination. That mindset was very helpful in our seeking success.

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #278278
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Originally Posted By: Ace


Hi Miranda,

So sorry so pressed for time. Hopefully I'll be able to write more over the weekend.

The first thing I changed about ME was that I realized that I needed help and sought it.

The second thing I changed was that I listened to (and did NOT discredit) the things I was hearing from the folks from whom I had requested help. (I force-ably had to strike the word "....but..." from my vocabulary during this process.)

Jayne's response to P4H answers another part of my changes. The concept of boundaries to protect myself were new to me. That was an important step.

As far as pushback, I didn't notice it as much because my motivation was to change for me, not change "for him." I became a better person in other aspects of my life that did or didn't involve him.

As far as the progression, it's ongoing. It is a lifetime change that is a journey, not a destination. That mindset was very helpful in our seeking success.


No worries about the quick reply. All information is good information.

It sounds like I am on the right road. I'm not doing what I'm doing for him. I might be doing it for us a bit, but mostly because I cannot be healthy for ME with the way things are now. And a healthier me, brings a better us.

Otherwise, it sounds like I need to just keep on keepin on.

Thanks for sharing and any further details or specifics about what you did when, or pitfalls you encountered is totally welcomed.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Miranda] #278280
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Miranda, you are a true inspiration. Thanks for investing yourself in the MA community. We are gaining as much from you as you say you're gaining from us.

Off to work!

Hugz,
Ace

PS How's it going, P4H? Also, thanks for the input Jayne.


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #278286
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Miranda, you are a true inspiration. Thanks for investing yourself in the MA community. We are gaining as much from you as you say you're gaining from us.

Off to work!

Hugz,
Ace

PS How's it going, P4H? Also, thanks for the input Jayne.


D'awww. Thanks Ace. blush


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Miranda] #279032
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Quote:
D'awww. Thanks Ace. blush

Hi Miranda,

You're welcome. I skimmed your thread and don't have much to add to all the fine advice you're already getting.

I said I would write more here on the weekend....and I will....as soon as I remember what else I had to say blushing




Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #281818
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I like that Ace - removing "but" something we all have to go through at some stage in our lives grin

I remember Mark commenting on my bits (ROFL) buts! on several occasions

I really should rephrase all of that, but it amuses me muchly as it is grin and y'know what I mean


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Squeaky Tree] #281843
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Originally Posted By: Squeaky Tree
I like that Ace - removing "but" something we all have to go through at some stage in our lives grin

I remember Mark commenting on my bits (ROFL) buts! on several occasions

I really should rephrase all of that, but it amuses me muchly as it is grin and y'know what I mean


Nahhh...don't rephrase it. Most of us would like to remove more of our buts (and butts) in our journey down "Recovery Road" and the general road of life.


Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #301026
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Sorry its taken me so long to update this thread. I just found another missing piece.

We had a bit of a struggle a couple months ago when my H wanted to sign up for a clinical trial for an experimental drug. I asked him to check with his doctor who said to go for it if he is OK with the risks. It took a couple days but H finally brought home the paperwork detailing the risks. Ugh.they were horrible including a high risk of developing cancer, kidney damage, insomnia and other bad things and there were no guarantees. Plus hed have to log everything and drive to evaluations every week. And, there was a one in three chance that he might have a placebo instead of the experimental drug. To me, that would have been the best thing but why waste all the time, energy, gas and hassle with so many unknowns?

I suggested he ask his GP to see a specialist first because there may be things he can try that have already proven to be effective with little or few side effects. He agreed but it was more of a defeated "You don't think I can make my own decisions." I suggested he call tough MC because I sensed his defensiveness and he said he would. So far he has not.

Instead he changed his attitude to one of gratefulness to me for caring enough to say something (to help him see the value in cancelling the clinical trial) so I'm OK with that. He recently saw a specialist who may have helped fix his medical issues using all natural treatments!

I needed to make an adjustment in my condescending tone. It took me a bit to realize it but once I did, it set us on a different (more healthy) direction.

We just passed another noteworthy anniversary and our 7th year after D-Day marker is coming up soon. Looks like we are on the road to recovery, I hope.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #301043
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apparently I get a "tone" too, Ace.

How did you get rid of it?


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Miranda] #301059
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Originally Posted By: Miranda
apparently I get a "tone" too, Ace.

How did you get rid of it?


Quick answer is I have NOT gotten rid of it totally but I can recognize it easier now that I hear the results (H's becoming defeated and defensive). Then I am quick to apologize in as civil caring tone as I can muster. Once I started doing that, H realized that my words might have meaning. They did in this case and he changed his thoughts....and then thanked me for it.

I do want to tell our MC sometime. We're becoming more able to overcome these things on our own but we've been at it for 7 years (after 32 years of the opposite).

Hope that helps. Remember it's different with each couple but that's what's working (notice present ongoing tense) for us. I don't think we'll ever arrive totally. It's a marathon, not a race and the finish line is a process as well.

Ace


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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #301075
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Originally Posted By: Ace
...a high risk of developing cancer, kidney damage, insomnia and other bad things and there were no guarantees.

Hi Acey. waves

Whoa! I'd have to be at death's door to consider fixing it with something with those hazards, and I'd probably have freaked if my H announced such a thing. So, so glad Mr. Ace has found a natural alternative treatment. Hope it gets the job done.

I know what you mean about a condescending tone. I slip into that sometimes. Not my best moments... Do you think that there's (at least) one partner in every marriage who shifts into that mode? I do, based on observing the marriages in my life...

Quote:
We just passed another noteworthy anniversary and our 7th year after D-Day marker is coming up soon. Looks like we are on the road to recovery, I hope.


Oh, Ace, of course you are! You guys have been working this for so long and in so many ways.

Mr. RHW said something to me during our recovery that really set me back on my heels, and I'm going to pass it to you, in case it resonates. We'd been on the recovery roller coaster that first year or so, working the MB plan, and making progress. But I was still anxious; still freaked from the whole A nightmare; hadn't yet regained equilibrium. H gently pointed out that we needed to relax a little and appreciate the ground we'd gained instead of always focusing on how much further we had to go.

I had to admit he was right, and from that point, I dialed it down a few notches. Most of the time, anyway.

Don't you think it's safe to say at this point that you and Mr. Ace are going to make it?

Hugs to you both!

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: right here waiting] #301168
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting

Don't you think it's safe to say at this point that you and Mr. Ace are going to make it?

Hugs to you both!


Hugz back atcha, RHW.

It seems like we'll make it until I start doubting because of some trigger issue that sneaks into my realm of consciousness.

Today it happened when I was trying to find a "husband Father's Day" card. The sentiments are great but I found myself making exceptions to statements like "You're so smart and so committed and of such high integrity and honesty - - - (except when you cheated on me....") crazy

He likes funny cards anyhow (or sports cards) so amazingly I found a cool baseball card with a short sporty verse.

<sigh>

I like your "dialing it down a notch" suggestion. We HAVE come a long way and I'll refocus on those accomplishments and accompanying joyous memories, past, present and future.

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #301173
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Oh, I hear you about choosing greeting cards. I stuff a lot of birthday, anniversary, Valentine's Day cards back into their slots when the inscription hits a nerve. And it still happens, nearly 7 years post D-Day.

Truth is, though, that I had the same reaction to those things before H's affair! He wasn't exactly ringing my chimes then, either. Of course, back then I didn't know how much worse it was gonna get... Didn't mushy greeting cards make you roll your eyes before your D-Day?

Surely I can't have been the only one doing that waaay before the affair.

Heck, It could have been an early warning sign that we were vulnerable.

Originally Posted By: Ace
It seems like we'll make it until I start doubting because of some trigger issue that sneaks into my realm of consciousness.


Maybe it would help when the trigger hits to search your memory for the tenor of your recent interactions. Most of the time, I'll bet you'll get positive memories to counter the trigger. When that doesn't happen--time to ramp up your game! shocked

I'm going to try that myself. I've got to go find a Father's Day card and an anniversary card this month!

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: right here waiting] #301235
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting

Maybe it would help when the trigger hits to search your memory for the tenor of your recent interactions. Most of the time, I'll bet you'll get positive memories to counter the trigger. When that doesn't happen--time to ramp up your game! shocked

I'm going to try that myself. I've got to go find a Father's Day card and an anniversary card this month!


Glad to hear it's not just me with card verses. Yes, it was tough before the A but I didn't have to rule out honesty....well, at least I didn't KNOW it all that time. AFter D-Day 1, I discovered he'd been lying for decades.

Even thought you two have the same D-Day as we do (7 years ago), we have a few differences in our sitches (one being I was hoping he'd cheat so I could dump him). I'm sure there are a few more but gotta get to work now so it will have to wait til later.

Thanks,
Ace

P.S. Happy Anniversary! claps You are a few years ahead of us in that category, plus you're both retired.
nod <- That's me, green with envy that you're able to retire. We could retire but we wouldn't have a life (or a place to live...or a car...or...LOL)

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #301306
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Yes, that's one difference, Ace. After years of trying to carry his part and mine, I gave up and accepted conventional wisdom: the honeymoon's over. Adapted and took satisfaction in what I did have--great kids, good friends, satisfying work. He involved himself in none of it, but he didn't leave, either. Looking back, he was probably immobilized by depression till a big marker birthday loomed. Then he blew with a vengeance I couldn't have imagined.

How did your H play it while you were hoping for your get-out-of-M-free card?

PS~About retirement. I can see how it could be a marriage ender if the partners haven't made peace with each other. I hate that it took the awful pain of an affair demolishing our lives, but without what we did afterwards, I doubt we'd be happy together today. You will be able to say the same when your time comes, young'un. nod

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: right here waiting] #301445
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting


How did your H play it while you were hoping for your get-out-of-M-free card?


Ironically, my decision to give up happened after we got into a huge fight over.....


.....


.....


.....

Click to reveal..
where to sit to have our picnic boxed lunch at a......



.....



wait for it again.....


.....



.....



Click to reveal..
...Full day Marriage Workshop sponsored by Campus Crusaders founder (can't remember his name but it might be Bill something)


After that day, I started a secret bank account and started chucking away small amounts of cash from my side jobs (writing and working with a regional publication).

Then I immersed myself in my work projects, some of which involved contact with my AEA partners ("Almost" Emotional Affair) but I told H about those contacts and he didn't even care.

He lied to me about a work project and when it backfired he got fired and I almost felt sorry for him. Otherwise, that would have been a good time to dump him.

I guess I still cared a little (or I didn't want the guilt associated with hittin' the guy while he was down) so I helped him start to get back on his feet by strongly suggesting he contact a guy he had coached with previously and who now had a facility where H could teach pitching lessons to school kids evenings and weekends. The guy had seen my H's story in the media (his firing had made ugly headlines) but he approached my H for the real story and subsequently invited him to work with him.

We seldom saw each other which was fine with me. Unfortunately, that same facility (since closed) is where he was able to secretly contact OW ...and the rest is history.

To answer your question in MB terms, my H didn't get much attention from me (I did bring his dinner down to the facility occasionally) so that may have made him vulnerable to OW when she was nice to him when they played an online game.

I'll have to comment on your retirement PS later cuz...


...uhhh...


Click to reveal..
I've gotta get to work!
crazy


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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #301508
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See, that's the cool part about being retired. grin

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: right here waiting] #302108
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting

PS~About retirement. I can see how it could be a marriage ender if the partners haven't made peace with each other. I hate that it took the awful pain of an affair demolishing our lives, but without what we did afterwards, I doubt we'd be happy together today. You will be able to say the same when your time comes, young'un. nod


I've been collecting all kinds of articles on retirement...how to plan so you don't "run out of money" before you "run out of life".... how to know when you're NOT ready to retire....how to keep from killing your spouse when you find yourself feeling suffocated in retirement. I think it might be good to have a "how to retire with your spouse and live to tell about it" type of thread on the <<<Magnify Marriage>>> forum.

What would you post if you were to start such a thread, RHW? Mr. RHW? Anyone who is retired and proud of it?

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #302177
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Heck, we're not deep enough into it to have anything useful to post yet. (And in any event, Mr. RHW would sooner put hot coals in his eyes than post!)

I do promise to post any insights on the subject if and when I get 'em, though.

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: right here waiting] #302191
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting
Heck, we're not deep enough into it to have anything useful to post yet. (And in any event, Mr. RHW would sooner put hot coals in his eyes than post!)

I do promise to post any insights on the subject if and when I get 'em, though.

Does this mean you are still in the Honeymoon phase?

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Rich57] #302242
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Originally Posted By: Rich57

Does this mean you are still in the Honeymoon phase?


laugh1 ROFL laugh


Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #302246
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Originally Posted By: Rich57

Does this mean you are still in the Honeymoon phase?


eek

God, no! That would be like having to redo adolescence! No thanks.

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We've been 1/2 retired ever since Daryl and I first got together. When I was working and going to school and raising kids, having him free 24/7 was a godsend in so many ways.

Then when I scaled back and just worked ONE job and nothing else, with the kids grown and gone, it took some adjustment. And we still suffer some, from him wanting my "help" with every little thing (read he wants my company all the time)

When I retire and we are both home full time, ... ::shudders:: I can't imagine what that will be like. Thank goodness I'm around 20 years from there.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Miranda] #302437
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Originally Posted By: Miranda


When I retire and we are both home full time, ... ::shudders:: I can't imagine what that will be like. Thank goodness I'm around 20 years from there.


HOKAY, Miranda. You've outlined your next project (if you're ambitious enough to tackle it): Magnify your Marriage so much that you both want to spend time with each other.

As you say, you've got 20 years to work on it! smile

Something happened at work today that makes me want to speed up our retirement timeline to 2 years, not 7.

I.
Can't.
Wait!!!!

I'm calling our planner tomorrow to set up an appointment. Maybe I'll start the "retirement" thread myself.



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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #302443
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Just found this from US News & World Reports on 4 ways to calculate your retirement number. Thought I'd park a link here since I don't have time to start the new thread:

"4 Ways to Calculate Your Retirement Number" - US News article by Financial Blogger Rob Berger

I wish I had this interest in finding out retirement info when I was in my 30's and 40's and had time to "grow our dough."

cry

Last edited by Ace; 06/18/13 05:37 AM.
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #302464
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Originally Posted By: Miranda


When I retire and we are both home full time, ... ::shudders:: I can't imagine what that will be like. Thank goodness I'm around 20 years from there.


HOKAY, Miranda. You've outlined your next project (if you're ambitious enough to tackle it): Magnify your Marriage so much that you both want to spend time with each other.

As you say, you've got 20 years to work on it! smile



Ace, that is absolutely an unintended consequence of the work we've been doing, imo. The better I get at setting boundaries and owning only my own stuff, and allowing myself to be well and truly seen, the more enjoyable time spent together becomes.

I think it is reasonable that within 20 years that retirement will look pretty good. I just hadn't thought about it that way.

Thanks!


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Miranda] #302909
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Originally Posted By: Miranda

I think it is reasonable that within 20 years that retirement will look pretty good. I just hadn't thought about it that way.

Thanks!


You're welcome.
Always glad to provoke different thought processes. I know your detachment...still working to overcome it, too but really making progress.

I actually went to the web site of our pension source (had no idea until a few years ago either of us even had a pension and how that meant we had a "stipend for life") and started day-dreaming. I can begin to see H and I actually having fun together 24/7 now. A.m.a.z.i.n.g!!!!

I may not be around for a week or so...huge event at work.

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #303249
06/22/13 05:04 PM
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Acey:

I have worked out *our* retirement plan to age 82/85 for Flamingo and me.

I have the income we expect to make from now until then.

And then I have the expenses of living until then.

I think spreadsheets are terrific.

Flamingo will be able to retire in 2 years, with a pension, so, we can survive without her working.

And I expect to do this stuff till I am 72. It is not phyically demanding...only mentally. And I can back down how big or small my business is.

I can use the same template to create many different scenarios. I can sell the house and we can move, or she can continue working, or I can retire at 62, not 72, or if I get hit by a meteorite.. What happens then?

Lots of assumptions. And any plan for 30 years is full of them. I go conservative on the income and the investment returns, and aggressive with increases in energy costs, medicals and insurance and taxes. Cover myself two ways there.

And we can always be more frugal...

SFB


Finding an ethical way to deal with pain, fear, disappointment etc..is part of the experience of becoming a stronger person...one who is driven by compassion instead of compulsion...ie I have a legitimate reason to be stressed out right now...however, my response to it will determine how others percieve me, and myself. (quoting Star*Fish)
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: SFB] #303263
06/22/13 06:50 PM
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Rich57 Offline
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Originally Posted By: SFB
Acey:

I have worked out *our* retirement plan to age 82/85 for Flamingo and me.

I have the income we expect to make from now until then.

And then I have the expenses of living until then.

I think spreadsheets are terrific.

Flamingo will be able to retire in 2 years, with a pension, so, we can survive without her working.

And I expect to do this stuff till I am 72. It is not phyically demanding...only mentally. And I can back down how big or small my business is.

I can use the same template to create many different scenarios. I can sell the house and we can move, or she can continue working, or I can retire at 62, not 72, or if I get hit by a meteorite.. What happens then?

Lots of assumptions. And any plan for 30 years is full of them. I go conservative on the income and the investment returns, and aggressive with increases in energy costs, medicals and insurance and taxes. Cover myself two ways there.

And we can always be more frugal...

SFB

Hmmm we got you through YOUR life crisis.

Now if Flamingo doesn't have one your planning will be OK.

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Rich57] #303290
06/22/13 09:52 PM
06/22/13 09:52 PM
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Ace Offline OP
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Awww Rich.
Originally Posted By: Rich57

Now if Flamingo doesn't have one your planning will be OK.


We all have life crises (or is it crisis's?), planning or not.

I wish our planning could produce permanent results. Of course, a pre-planned life would be boring, wouldn't it?

Click to reveal..
Not for me! I'd love to be able to write my life and have it (all good and no bad) come true!


Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: SFB] #304491
06/30/13 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: SFB
Acey:

I have worked out *our* retirement plan to age 82/85 for Flamingo and me.

I have the income we expect to make from now until then.

And then I have the expenses of living until then.

I think spreadsheets are terrific.

Flamingo will be able to retire in 2 years, with a pension, so, we can survive without her working.

And I expect to do this stuff till I am 72. It is not phyically demanding...only mentally. And I can back down how big or small my business is.

I can use the same template to create many different scenarios. I can sell the house and we can move, or she can continue working, or I can retire at 62, not 72, or if I get hit by a meteorite.. What happens then?

Lots of assumptions. And any plan for 30 years is full of them. I go conservative on the income and the investment returns, and aggressive with increases in energy costs, medicals and insurance and taxes. Cover myself two ways there.

And we can always be more frugal...

SFB


Great post, SFB. As I mentioned above and on your "What would you do?" thread on the OT forum, I'm working (in my mind only for now) on a new thread for the <<<MAgnify MArriages>>> Forum on how retirement decisions may (or may not) affect marriages.

In your professional opinion, what column titles and sub-titles should be included in a comprehensive "retirement planning" spreadsheet?

Ace

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #305433
07/10/13 02:00 PM
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Quote:
In your professional opinion, what column titles and sub-titles should be included in a comprehensive "retirement planning" spreadsheet?


golf lessons
tennis lessons
bar supplies
beach supplies
flip flop fund

grin


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: ohmy_marie] #308050
07/26/13 07:19 AM
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I've been meaning to combine my stories (Prequel Screenplay, Saga Chapters, Poetry Odes) into one place so I've finally done it. Now my sig line should link directly to this post, I hope. Thanks to AR for showing me how to cut and paste between forums while keeping bolds, italics, colors and other markings intact. I've posted the steps on the Tech forum.

Here's much of our story posted 5-6 years ago on MB and more recently on MA. At the bottom is a link to my recovery thread with the updates on our recent 3 years. I hope it provides inspiration for at least one couple struggling with decades of dysfunction and looking for hope to change the status quo.

Thanks in advance for reading,
Ace

###

I posted the following on MA in 2010:

Mr. romAnCE: The Prequel

It's been over 4 years since the season (Spring/Easter, 2006) when my husband's affair began somewhat innocently from online game chatter. The triggers have subsided and I don't recall the specific time-line but I will post it later even though I didn't want to look it up.

Why?

Because I now want to focus on the future, not the past. In posting this Prequel (and eventually subsequent chapters), I'll be able to move on....I hope.

Although it's been over 4 years since the affair started, the conditions that set the stage for it began much earlier---about 33 years give or take a few.

Setting the stage - interesting concept. This Prequel describing the woeful condition of our pre-affair marriage could be staged, possibly as a horror play or film.

I've never written a screenplay (and don't want to take time to learn how now) but if I did a rough draft, the outline might look something like this:

*******

CAST OF CHARACTERS:

Male Lead Character: (MLC)
Female Lead Character: (FLC)


INTRODUCTION: Voice OS
(off screen)

"FLC was a very active student who had crushes on boys but never had a boyfriend. She was into cheerleading, sports, church, student leadership and social causes and her volunteer work kept her extremely busy. But she wondered what it might be like to have a boyfriend and often envied her friends who did. She began to feel 'left behind' when many of her high school and college friends got married before she had even one meaningful relationship. She filled the void with romantic books, movies and fantasies, grateful that her vow to save sex for marriage would be easier to keep."

"MLC was a triple-sport high school jock who thought that his athletic prowess entitled him to all life had to offer. He was offered multi-sports full-ride college scholarships and recruited by professional MLB scouts but he decided to stay in college, trying to increase his value and subsequent pro-sport signing bonus. He suffered an injury during a crucial time and the bottom fell out of his pro-sports dreams. After nursing his shattered ego with wild parties, illicit sex, drugs and alcohol (resulting in legal challenges), he had a life-changing experience that gave him a new perspective on his future."

SCENE ONE: College in Anytown, USA

* On a snowy path, MLC sees tiny FLC walking alone towards him and his huge jock friends.
* He picks her up and swings her around, flinging books, purse and papers all over.
* FLC screams at him, calling him the wrong name so he dumps her in the snow bank while his friends chortle.
* MLC and FLC take a class together and he offers to walk her to lunch which leads to many intriguing conversations.
* FLC discovers that in spite of his wilder days, MLC now seems to have all 3 of her life-partner qualifications:

xx1) Love God and have a desire to help people.
xx2) Don't smoke, drink, gamble, cuss or chew (or hang out repeatedly with those who do).
xx3) Play the guitar or piano and sing to her.

* MLC invites FLC to his off-campus neighbor's Bible study.
* Note on door says Bible study cancelled so they drive away to have their own study.
* MLC claims to have a vision of FLC involved in sports ministry with him as his wife.
* FLC agrees to his 'proposal' because of her fear of being left behind and becoming an 'old maid.'
* MLC and FLC are married the next year but many aspects of their love-less relationship fuel her resentments.

SCENE TWO: Small Town USA

* MLC's inability to land a local full-time job builds FLC's resentment when they have to move before she graduates.
* MLC and FLC engage in youth and sports ministries but passive aggressive behaviors and marital competition inhibits them.
* Resentment grows even after they start a family due to increased financial challenges and communication issues.

SCENE THREE: Big City USA (different scene, same resentment)

* MLC's propensity to misrepresent the truth leads to job terminations, multiple moves and financial devastation.
* FLC chooses commuting over a new job, eventually gaining 80 pounds eating fast food to stay awake while driving.
* MLC's entitlement combined with FLC's resentment sets the stage for a major breakdown in the marriage.

xx Cut to FLASHBACK WITH B&W overlays:

xx1) MLC accepted new job independently even though FLC and children did NOT want to move.
xx2) MLC forged FLC's name on business document because she did NOT want to participate.
xx3) MLC repeatedly engaged in online ‘get rich quick' schemes but hid them from FLC.
xx4) MLC secretly set up a business and bank account with another woman which lost money.
xx5) MLC once pulled a knife in the midst of a heated argument with FLC.

xx FLASHBACK sequence fades to blackscreen

SCENE FOUR: Virtual Reality via Cyberspace

* FLC continues to seek help via marriage books, tapes, CD's workshops, seminars, and finally an all day conference.
* At the conference, MLC and FLC get into a fight and FLC decides to quit all efforts to fix the marriage after decades of trying.
* FLC begins to seek a way to biblically justify getting out of the marriage.
* MLC finds OW while playing online games when supposedly job hunting.
* DD discovers MLC's intimate emails to OW and with DS they both confront their father.
* FLC is gleeful after MLC confesses his infidelity because it gives her the biblically-justified reason she needs to get out.
* MLC agrees to an uncontested Plan D but within minutes DS challenges his parents to fight for their family first.
* MLC seeks another chance so FLC sets the stage with a very high bar that she does not think MLC will be able to meet.

xxSPECIAL EFFECTS to appear as if a fantasy with subtitles:

xx1) Be open and honest in everything.
xx2) Be responsible, respectful, remorseful and romantic.
xx3) When MLC fails at the above, sincerely apologize to FLC with the intent to change.

xx FANTASY SCENE brightens to FLC appearing hopeful

* FLC feels like she has nothing to lose except time and MLC begins to prove that he is committed to following through.

SCENE FIVE: Grand Finale

* MLC realizes that he wants to stay married to FLC so he begins to climb over her high bar.
* MLC makes appointments for MC and appears to want to change.
* FLC forgives MLC prematurely because he seems to become so responsible, respectful, remorseful (and especially romantic) that she thinks he has totally changed overnight.
* Neither MLC nor FLC understand about withdrawal from the addiction of the infidelity high. They suffer 2 more D-days.
* MLC is too weak to resist and goes further underground, setting up new email accounts to reconnect with OW.
* After 4 D-days, FLC decides to give up but MLC begs for another chance to prove his intent on their 10 day vacation.

SCENE SIX: Ongoing Conclusion

With the help of a new (old) marriage counselor and Marriage Builder concepts, MLC and FLC begin the road to recovery with MLC becoming FLC's Mr. Romance that has lead to a honeymoon high for over 3 years and continues today.

The Beginning

*******

I am now sharing this condensed version of The Prequel because e-friends have told me that reading what we've overcome is now giving them new hope. I sincerely pray that others will benefit, too.

As I began to change myself, many of my H's annoying habits that used to bug me began to affect me less. I no longer care when he forgets to put fabric softener in the dryer, or forgets to run the hot water before turning on the dishwasher, or forgets to dry the shower alleviating water spots, or replaces the TP from the bottom instead of the top or puts the seat down or folds the towels widthwise instead of lengthwise so they're easier to put on the rack. I'm just grateful that he is making the effort to work WITH me instead of AGAINST me (and I with him) in our marriage recovery. When he remembers trivial things it's a bonus.

I am now able to focus on the big picture of our relationship and marriage and emphasize the things that truly matter.

* Spiritual Foundation
* Core Values
* World View
* Commitment to Recovery
* Dedication to Marriage & Family
* Long Term Vision and Goals
* Effort to Make a Difference in the Lives of Others
* Retirement Planning focused on Service and Joy

Thank you for reading. I'm wishing you well on this ongoing journey of personal or marital recovery. Comments or questions welcome via post or PM.

Blessings,
Ace

****************************************************************


Here's a glimpse of the sordid A timeline:

EA 4/06 to 11/06 Same OW online, phone, mail, video including phone and online virtual sexual exchanges

DD #1 Jun. 30 DD27 discovered emails, w/DS25 confronted H who confessed EA to me.

Forgave Jul. 1 I thought I was being a good Christian by forgiving him immediately.

DD #2 Jul. 10 Found new secret emails. I knew nothing about WS fog and withdrawal.

Began reading "Not 'Just Friends'" Jul. 10 MC suggested it but also said DON'T expose to OPS.

DD #3 Aug. 10 Found draft/delete acct. H says "we're 'just friends', we quit having phone sex."

Emailed NC Aug. 10 H wrote NC letter, we hit 'send' together but OW thought I wrote it.

I befriended OW Tried to make her promise to say "No" to WH, then tell me if/when he broke NC.

Tested OW w/fake email She told me/him "no" but didn't tell me about the fake 'attempt'.

Told WH about fake test To my dismay, his response surprised and disappointed me.

Stopped contact w/OW Aug. 30 Found out later that BS fog has withdrawal from OP, too.

Found SAA and HNHN 10/06 H & I continued reading MB books w/nightly Bible reading/prayer times.

OW area code on caller ID 10/06 Wondered if OWH knew about A and might be coming after WH.

DD #4 Nov. 10 WH lied about online "just checking to see if I can resist OW" activities.

Told WH to leave Decided to give up, cancel upcoming vacation, sell house and start over @ 53. WH picked up his piddly gym bag to leave. Like before, he expected me to change my mind.

WH fog began lifting I let him go but he turned at the door, begging for strike 5 and our vacation.

10 Day vacation Nov. 10-20, 2006 Together 24/7 w/ no LB's...saw hope that he might be changing.

I re-contacted OW Nov. 30 Wanted her to tell me if WH tried to reconnect. She would not at first.

WH Handwritten NC Dec. 10 WH's idea to write it but my idea to include HNHN to help OW.

Stopped MC Dec. 10 H said MB books helped us more than MC but I was wary

Discovered MB Forums during holidays - Registered to get MB help rebuilding trust January 14, 2007.

TJ'd newbie thread 1/20 Discovered need for delayed exposure to OPS for many reasons.

Emailed MB staff seeking OPS exposure info Jan. 21 Dr. Harley answered, suggested radio show.

Called MB radio Jan. 31 Dr./Mrs. Harley said delayed OPS exposure is conditionally optional.

Exposed Feb. 10 Called OPS and sent copies of OW's handwritten love notes but OPS did not reply.

Final contact w/OW Feb. 18, 2007 OW clung to WH via my emails. She denies she lies; not my problem.

H lied (job) Feb. 20 I sought previous MC we intially avoided due to MC/H's 20+ year friendship.

Passive/agressiveness During weekly MC, we learned these ingrained habits partially led to our detached marriage.

Mar-Apr. 2007 400 mile (4 weeks) Separation MC/MB helped us survive long distance fears, triggers & LB's...details of how this developed coming.

****

Thanks for reading. More details to come in Chapters 1-7 below.


***************************************************************



Sat. May 19 2007 09:25 AM From the Marriage Builders "Romantic Experiences" forum:

Mr. romAnCE Saga

Synopsis of chapters 1-5

At SaturnRising's suggestion, I am briefly highlighting chapters 1-5 for those who may not have read the entire saga or the abbreviated version on the Romantic Experiences forum. (I pulled chapters 2-4 to preserve our identification.) I have emailed the missing chapters to those who have asked but as Saturn indicated, many don't email due to personal boundaries, which I totally respect. I may reinstate them after we are sufficiently recovered so that it does not matter if friends/family identify us; most likely they will already know.

Chapter 1:

I was an active HS and college student who occasionally dated and had crushes on guys but never had a boyfriend. My self image gradually diminished as "friend-boys" always seemed to view me like a "little sister" instead of girlfriend potential. It seemed like my "self-imposed vow of chastity until marriage" would be easy to uphold.

Chapter 2:

I had only 3 thoughts of what I desired in a boyfriend/husband: 1) Love God and have a desire to help people. 2) Don't smoke, drink, gamble, cuss or chew (or hang out with those who do) 3) play the guitar or piano and sing to me. (Pretty shallow, but that was it! If I had had the knowledge MB offered, the list would have been much different.) In my sophomore year, a tall campus stud threw me over his shoulder, showing off in front of his jock-friends, but when I pounded on his back and called him the wrong name, he dumped me in the snow bank. The following semester, we had a class together and I discovered he had most of the above attributes.

Chapter 3:

We started walking to lunch together after that class. I enjoyed the attention but many things about him repelled me. But it was nice to start to entertain thoughts of a relationship with a guy who did NOT view me as a "little sister." We began going to an off-campus church together. One day when we went out for a Bible study, he said "God told me to marry you." Although I did not love him, I reluctantly said "OK" because at age 19 and after what felt like numerous rejections, I was afraid of being left behind alone.

Chapter 4:

Our nebulous beginnings led to 32 years of detachment which involved multiple moves, horrendous commutes and financial devastation, his job terminations, my massive weight gain (and increased snoring and separate bedrooms for 2 years). We were so detached that H successfully hid a serious health condition (and ER visit) from me and the other time he was hospitalized, I did not even visit, but checked to make sure the life insurance was paid up.

After 31 years and 2 kids, I honestly looked for a reason to just get out and start over. I actually felt relieved on D-Day #1 that I finally had my justification in God's eyes to leave my husband. But one thing stopped me so I decided to give it one last try, or so I thought. My H suggested MC with a counselor we had seen previously but he then lied during every session so, after 2 more D-Days we quit MC.

I gave up on D-Day #4 and agreed that my WH should leave. I decided to follow through with my thoughts to sell the house and start over with the equity. During the previous 3 D-Days, when he said he should go, I agreed but then changed my mind, telling him I needed to keep him around for SF. But as he got to the door Nov. 10, 2006 I was determined to let him go.

Although I did not realize it at the time, his fog began lifting almost instantly and he turned around at the door and begged me for another chance. When I agreed to give him one more strike, he saw me in a different light. Gradually, not only did my husband forsake the OW fantasy (actually became repulsed by the thoughts of her......said she was ugly, boring and a worst liar than him b/c she was/is still in denial and most likely has found another guy to cheat with), he now seems to be indifferent towards her. And that is fine with me BECAUSE......

Chapter #5:

.......that Mr. LUSTY AFFAIR has morphed into the man of my dreams, MY MR. ROMANCE, who I now have fallen passionately in love with because he appears to be everything I ever wanted in a man, at least it seems so for now...and I know that time will tell...but we're enjoying the ride together along the way.

Here's what I've noticed:

Mr. LUSTY AFFAIR (Mr. Liar, Mr. Untrusworthy, Mr. Selfishness, Mr. Thoughtless, Mr. Yah, Mr. Abusive, Mr. Fone Fornicator, Mr. Anti-apology, Mr. Insensitive and Mr. Reprehensible) has demonstrated that he is becoming MR. ROMANCE, which often seems too good to be true.

He is REMORSEFUL, RESPECTFUL and REFOCUSED
He is OBEDIENT to the OMNIPOTENT ONE
He is MOTIVATED to MEND our MARRIAGE
He is AFFECTIONATE, APOLOGETIC and ATTENTIVE
He is NICE in a NATURAL, NON-RESISTENT way
He is COOPERATIVE, CONSIDERATE, COMMUNICATIVE & seems COMPLETELY COMMITTED to me
He is EMOTIONALLY ENGAGED and EAGER to ENCOURAGE me EVERY EVENING (and every day for the rest of our lives)

Time will tell the extent of this transformation and I realize we will have our ups and downs. But my MR. ROMANCE is claiming that he will prove to me (and anyone who wants to challenge the notion) that our HONEYMOON HIGH can be sustained for the rest of our lives. What adventure could be more romantic than that?

************************************** X X X X X **************************************

Since finding MB forums around the holidays I've wondered how and why we stayed together in misery for 32+ years. He 'stuck' he says, because he loves me. I stayed, I guess because God "put us together," to avoid being alone, for the kids' sake, because I like SF and because it seemed easier to stay and suffer than to leave. (A little passive/aggressiveness? More about that in Chapter 7.) Plus, suffering in seeming silence was easier than having to expose our failures to everyone. (There are no divorces in my immediate family and only one in his.)

Chapter 6: HOW I ENDURED 30+ years of ILYBINILWY 'existence' that resulted in my H's E/PA.

I learned from the MSN article WHY YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE SEX TO CHEAT that although it wasn't pretty, it revealed to me HOW I was able to endure our volatile, passionless, "merely existing as roommates (with SF)" sham of a marriage for so long.


As mentioned, my marriage requirement bar was as low as my self image was when that BMOC hopped over it after dumping me in the snow bank, sitting by me in class and then walking me to lunch. Remember, I only had 3 ideas of qualities I desired in a boyfriend/husband:

#1) LOVE GOD AND WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE'S LIVES. He said he saw a vision of us in sports ministry together which became a reality we've continued over the years. We've done other youth and church ministries, domestic and international mission trips, and been involved with a home church wherever we moved. (Now we have intensified our seeking to read, study and pray together, every day or night, to become more like Christ and to share His love and our experiences with others.)

#2) NOT SMOKE, DRINK, CUSS, GAMBLE OR CHEW OR HANG WITH THE FOLKS THAT DO. As far as I know, he still abstains from all, not just because I threatened to break our engagement twice, but because he developed new habits that stuck and he doesn't want any of those vices to be a part of our lives either...which is quite a witness to the coaches, athletes and parents who he is involved with as a player, coach and professional pitching instructor.

#3) PLAY THE GUITAR OR PIANO AND SING TO ME. During our early days, he often brought his guitar over and sang with my dorm mates. In fact, he wrote a song for me and sang it while playing his guitar as I walked up the aisle at our wedding (in a highly unusual place that had such a long aisle that he forgot all 4 verses so he just repeated the 1st one over and over). After one of our many house moves, his guitar got lost so he quit playing and singing and refused to resume even when I found his guitar and had it restrung.

***

As I already mentioned, getting married for fear of being left behind alone is the wrong reason. But like Mark and others pointed out oon my original thread, God still could and did bless our marriage and I give Him all the glory and credit for our survival and transition.

It was and is not easy, nor is it something I would encourage others to attempt. I share this now because of what I've learned from a variety of sources, especially MB, which may help others seemingly caught in a trap of what feels like a loveless marriage to find solutions like we have.

SO WHAT DID I DO TO SURVIVE 32+ YEARS OF ILYBINILWY?

The MSN article "You Don't Have to Have Sex to Cheat" illuminated one of the "coping tactics" I utilized to endure all those years. In a nutshell, I engaged in "AEAs" to meet my missing emotional needs.

Because I realize it's rare if it even exists, I conjured up the term AEA which means "Almost Emotional Affair." As I understand the definitions of EA and PA, an EA is an attachment of emotions which could include virtual (but not physical) sex. A PA includes inappropriate physical touching including intercourse. Here's how this relates to us:

EMOTIONAL NEEDS MET .....ONE WAY OR THE OTHER

Over the years, through the course of my work day and evenings and week-ends, I experienced more admiration, affection, conversation, family commitment, domestic support, recreational companionship and often even financial support from other sources than from my husband.

I thought Openness and Honesty were important to me but obviously it was low on both our lists. My physical appearance and my health went to heck when my depression justified my gaining 80+ pounds.

But we had great SF, even through my menopausal phase, which is amazing as I look back. I know we are the exception, but it is true that we both enjoyed SF without emotional attachment, even when I was morbidly obese and after menopause. That in itself is a miracle of sorts although some may consider it a curse.

Most of my emotional needs were met by many other men (and women) but my SF needs were met by my husband. Like I've said on other threads, I tried for nearly 30 years to seek a solution for the erosion in our relationship through books, tapes, videos, CDs, IC, MC, seminars, workshops, group sessions and church-sponsored get-aways. But I gave up just before our 30th anniversary when we got into a huge fight....at a marriage conference!

That day, I told my husband that I was through trying to "fix us" and that I would never suggest another marriage solution ever again. Thus, we detached even further and when he became lonely, instead of telling me about his needs, he engaged in a 4-7* month EA (including virtual sex via phone, email, PO mailed items and video) with a woman he met playing online games when he was supposedly looking for work after being fired.

I was busy working 3 jobs, helping care for his frail mother and bringing dinner down to his part-time job site, occasionally interrupting his OW fantasy email/phone sessions. I should have suspected many times, but we seldom talked so we never fought and he seemed to like the isolation he chose. Thus it became easy for him to revel in his fantasy of lying and hiding things just for the adventure of getting away with it.

*(4 months - first emailed NC message OW thought was from me. It was 7 months when WH fog began lifting and we sent OW my husband's handwritten NC note with a copy of His Needs, Her Needs.)

CATCH AND RELEASE ....NOT JUST A FISHING PHRASE

After being caught 4 times (June to Nov. 2006), my husband chose to change...he released his choice for fog. I agreed to change, too but I realized we both needed outside help. I found SAA, HNHN, LB, and FIL,LIL in the fall but I did not realize MB had a discussion forum until around Christmas 2006.

I lurked for a couple weeks before posting to ask for help rebuilding trust, wondering if it only took time. Most posters said yes, but after just one week on MB, I got 2x4ed regarding my misperception of exposure to OPS, which, I soon discovered, was what I needed to do in order FOR ME to begin rebuilding trust in my soon-to-be-FORMER-wayward husband. (Sidenote: This worked for us but may not be appropriate for all couples in similar situations.)

A poster who helped me tremendously called me a poet
so I coined the following in her honor:

We exposed, OW lied,
(and the OWH never replied)
but it really makes no difference
because at least I tried!

(Sidenote: Mom to A & Z ~ aka "MAZ" ~ I hope you find your way here to MA soon.)


RECOVERY AND DISCOVERY ROAD IS ROCKY BUT REWARDING

We are now on the road to recovery AND discovery of an even better relationship, but I've often speculated why and how we were/are still together after such extended misery. Now, because of MB and the myriad of e-friends who have helped me and us, I'm beginning to discover some of the answers.

SO HOW COULD I QUALIFY MY EA AS AN 'ALMOST EA?'

#1. It was never a secret. I told my H about all my conversations with others regarding our difficult relationship and marriage and he was actually glad I could talk to others so I didn't have to bug him. Sounds bizarre, I know, but it happened often and helped me endure.

I have an aversion to hiding things that might be detrimental when revealed. As a child, when playing "hide and go seek" or "cowboys and Indians," I always wanted to get caught first because I couldn't stand the suspense of hiding.

Even today I can't cheat on our taxes, I'm quick to apologize even if I'm not sure if one is warranted, and I'll do anything to resolve conflict as soon as possible. (My H was the opposite but we are making great strides using Biblical principles and all the MB policies as we learn to apply them.)

#2. Whenever I began entertaining inappropriate thoughts of other men I had shared emotional challenges with, I would somehow sabotage that relationship. I did, however, encourage some of the professional singers I worked with to leave singing voicemails or sing to me over the phone. But I always told my H and he said he was glad they did it so he didn't have to sing to me.

#3 My SF needs were being met at home, so I never fantasized about sex with any other man. I did wonder what it might be like to be passionately IN LOVE with someone who was also IN LOVE with me. I watched romantic comedies and read Christian romance novels to get my romance fantasy fix in a seemingly harmless way. I helped my friends with their relationships; not that I was any expert....but it gave me significance in trying to make a difference by being a good listener if nothing else.

*****

FOLLOW MB PRINCIPLES AND AVOID THE AGONY OF DECEIT

Like PrincessMeggy, I would never recommend what I did to survive, but it bought time...30+ years and although it was backwards, often wrong and usually late, it worked to our advantage eventually and now we're reaping the rewards.

After nearly 33 years together (now almost 37), I am beginning to find out what it feels like to be passionately in love with someone who feels the same about me. While I am not thankful for my husband's affair, I am grateful for the wake-up call it represented in our lives. And I marvel at what appears to be a miracle in the changes he has and continues to make in becoming the man of my dreams, MY MR. ROMANCE, a person I hate to leave in the morning, and whom I eagerly anticipate seeing in the evenings and on weekends.

He says he will do anything to help me heal and so far he is following through. As we continue to make healthy choices, redirect as needed, and own our stuff (thanks LA), we will not only survive, but we intend to thrive so we can help others become alive in their marriages.

Thank God it is a life-long continuous journey, (staying happily married), and with God's help, the bumps in the road to recovery will not hinder our determination to succeed, not just for ourselves, but so that we can be a blessing to others along the way.

.......................................* * * * *...............................

Chapter 7: SEPARATION EVENTUALLY BRINGS US CLOSER TOGETHER

(NOTE to clarify: After D-Day #3, my H agreed to tell me when/if he ever received any contact from OW via snailmail, email or voicemail. Then he said he would let me delete or erase it or burn it with him. After his third strike, I wanted to give him ways to prove he was trustworthy and I ignorantly thought that his passing these tests would help me build my trust in him.)

In 2007, just as we began our 4th month of trust re-building after D-Day #4, and I was experiencing a new wave of "it happened a year ago" triggers, we were faced with a 4 week separation of 400 miles.

I'll share what happened before, during and after this separation in the form of a faux letter to the OW:

"DEAR OW,

I pretended I WAS YOU to test my WH via VOICE mail, E mail and SNAIL mail AND GUESS WHAT???????"

He PASSED 3 out of 4 TESTS. (And the one he 'failed' was only because I didn't set it up right.)

TEST #1: At first I freaked when I got a call at work from a number I did not know with your area code from across the country. It was from a fledgling actor who, after discussing the business at hand, agreed 'to play a practical joke' by calling my WH to leave a 'just saying "Hi" from a friend' voice mail. I wanted to see if he would tell me about it before erasing it.

TEST #2: I set up a fake email account similar to yours and sent him a "Please pray for me" message to see if he would tell me about it before deleting it.

TEST #3: I put a 2007 pocket calendar in one of your envelopes (w/obscured postmark) from a love letter you sent him (yeah, he gave them all to me). I also included a stamped envelope addressed to my office in case he refused it and tried to return it to you after I dropped it off at his part-time job.

TEST #4: Actually, a family member set up this test inadvertently over a year before you decided to respond to his "let's be friends since we can talk so easily we must be soul mates" messages and ended up having multiple phone fornication (and email sex) sessions, and pledging your lives to each other as soon as he left me and you could get rid of your husband who you claim is morbidly obese, has health issues and does not meet your sexual needs.

PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIORS we never realized we had until the week before Test #4

My husband and I are now learning from our new/old MC that our passive/aggressive behaviors played a huge part in the detachment of our 32 year marriage that contributed to his affair with you. And, just like a glutton about to binge one last time before having gastric surgery, I will not hold back if my passive/aggressive voice tells you about the 4th test.

Over a year ago, I agreed to help a family member after surgery 400 miles away. I had no idea it would be scheduled 4 months after the 4th Devastation Day of my husband's affair with you. You may dispute that date (just like you dispute that it was an 'affair' because you did not physically fornicate), but D-Day #3 occurred when you were on vacation 6 months ago.

During the following weeks, I tried to be your friend, just like I did after D-Day #1 when you wanted to apologize to me personally after my husband called to tell you he'd been caught. The day after D-Day #1, you promised to do anything to help us recover our marriage, BUT you willingly answered his secret new email account, betraying me within 24 hours of that pledge. I should have known then what liars you both were, but I tried to exercise good Christian forgiveness and you both rewarded me with 6 more weeks of secret exchanges. (The MC we saw at that time said we should just 'trust God' that you would confess to your husband or that he would confront you, and that neither of us should contact you for any reason. That MC knew nothing about withdrawal or WW fog.)

I EVEN TESTED YOU TO TRY TO REBUILD MY TRUST IN MY WH

During late August, 2006 after D-Day #3, when I was still trying to get you to say you would #1) refuse to reconnect with my H and #2) tell me about it if he tried again, I pretended to be my husband and used one of the secret accounts he set up ----yeah, he gave me all the passwords----to send you a fake email. While I was glad you said "No, do you know how much this would hurt Ace?" you only passed the first part of the test. I waited 3 hours and you never did inform me of that fake message like I had begged you to do after D-Day #1, but I let it go.

I believe I know why you would not promise to tell me if/when my husband tried to reconnect with you. You were probably still holding out hope that he would still follow through with your mutual pledges to look each other up when your husband and I were out of the picture. You thought I was trying to be his mother by spying on his every move and trying to hold him accountable. And before Test #4 as well as today, you still may be secretly hoping I fail.

I GAVE UP FAKE TESTS, REALIZING HOW COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE THEY WERE BY FOCUSING ON YOU, NOT MY HUSBAND

Actually, I "failed" and let go on Nov. 10, 2006, D-Day #4, when my husband lied about playing those same online games, trying to see if he could resist you if you were online, too. It was the night before our vacation. I agreed that he should go away....to live in his truck or wherever...but when he turned at the door and begged for another chance, I gave in. We used the next 10 days together 24/7 as a one-last-chance to prove to me that he wanted to change. We actually had the best time in our marriage up to that point and it's only gotten better since then.

But as we've learned from the MB program, (which I told you about when I enclosed a copy of "His Needs, Her Needs" with my husband's handwritten NC letter), the fear returns in the form of triggers, painful reminders of your illicit exchanges prompted or "triggered" by some associated item or memory.

A 4 WEEK TEST OF A 400 MILE SEPARATION 4 MONTHS AFTER D-DAY #4

I followed through with my pledge to be gone 4 weeks (which ended up being 5 weeks away from my job), trusting that faith in God for our marriage was real or it wasn't.

Was it difficult? Hardest thing I've ever done. The area was so remote that I had no cell phone, no voice mail, one channel TV and very limited on-line access (dial-up when it worked). One of my biggest fears was that if I could not get online, and if you were lurking and noticed that I disappeared from this forum, it might possibly signal that I was gone so that you might try to reconnect with my husband or respond if he secretly tried to contact you.

Was I paranoid? Yup! Did I trigger often? Every time I went into his voice mail, just like he allowed my calls to do when he was on the phone with you and many other times.

Was it worth it? Yes, for the family member and for the growth of my relationship with my husband who drove the 800 miles to visit me every weekend. He also began telling me in advance (on the land line with no voice mail) why/when he would not be available on his cell phone. We continued our nightly reading HNHN, Bible study and prayer times the entire 4 weeks via land line. And we even conducted our weekly marriage counseling sessions via speaker phone.

WE BOTH ARE NOW PASSING OUR TEST OF RECOVERING OUR MARRIAGE

My husband has apparently become indifferent towards you and I am approaching that same status. In fact, he expected me to trigger yesterday (a year after you reconnected after he first tried to break off your affair after 3 weeks according to your emails) but I didn't remember an unrelated incident until he showed concern.

And he has become my MR. ROMANCE, buying me flowers, setting up dates and spending ALL of his leisure time with me, telling me he'll do anything to help me heal and following through for the past 6 months.

In closing, there's a thread on the MB forums about bashing the OP (other person). My H wanted to bash you when I tried to be your friend. He called you a worse liar than him because you were/are still in denial and he figured you might be already cheating with another guy.

I've learned from these boards that if I wanted to, the best way to bash you might be to focus all energies on our relationship, not you or the triggers you represent. If our marriage recovery (and apparent discovery of an even better relationship) constitutes "bashing the OP," then I am guilty, too. But I'm also thankful that you are now becoming a 'nothing' in our lives.

Only God can convict you but you will have to choose to denounce your denial, repent, and get right with your husband, with your family and with God.

Ace


***

Originally Posted By: Ace on MA in 2010
It's been over 4 years since our 4th D-Day Nov. 10 2006.

As mentioned, we've had numerous ups and downs on our recovery rollercoaster.

Here's a poem I wrote about the first anniversary near melt-down a year later.

BEYOND the BEFORE
(In Spite of the Asinine Alien)

By Ace
11~14~07

Here I sit.
A year has gone by.
That asinine alien refused to just die.

I left on vacation...
...no time for MB.
That alien returned to my husband and me.

It brought with it selfishness...
...anger and pride...
and ambushed my H as we went for a ride.

It felt like regression...
...just like D-day 4...
...back when I gave up and then showed H the door.

Some false expectations...
...a selfish demand...
...propelled the exchange which then got out of hand.

It stirred up more love busters.
Mean things were said.
It's scary what aliens can do to your head.

Our MC was gone...
...and I'd been off MB.
We sought God's assistance, HE's never failed me.

The power of prayer...
...and time to discuss...
...revealed just what forces had overcome us.

Eventually coolness...
...and logic prevailed.
We soon learned some causes for why we derailed.

He seemed so defensive...
...and I gave up hope, but
together we clawed up that slippery slope.

My H was so broken...
...he shared such remorse.
But I owned my part for what got us off course.

And as tears were flowing...
...I'm sorry was said...
...and soon an idea came for this new thread.

Beyond the Before...
...our marriage improves...
...in spite of that asinine alien's moves.

And NO, I'm not thankful
for my husband's A...
...despite it our marriage is better today.

Our MC says broken bones
take time to mend...
...but scar tissue makes them more strong in the end.

So now that our marriage
has suffered the scars...
...from asinine alien attacks on what's ours...

...we're learning to recognize
alien wiles...
...and building more passion in spite of its trials.

We're getting resilient,
and loving much more.
Thank God for our marriage Beyond the Before.

*******

(Part two)

I TRIED and I TRUSTED; He LIED, then got BUSTED!

By Ace
12~9~07

While I was here needing
to find my true role,
my DH was seeking
to curb my control.

Subconsciously first,
then a chance to defy
evolved to a blatant
and self-serving lie.

That Alien returned
saying "she'll never know"
and one little lie soon
just started to grow....

....it multiplied, mutated,
took on more steam....
that Alien concocted
a fraudelent scheme.

For 4 days it simmered
while DH was trusted....
...one innocent phone call...
and DH was busted.

I asked him again
so that he could come clean...
but he told more lies
in a tone that seemed mean.

I turned to my journal
creating a vent....
...for MC and 2 friends
and after I sent....

...that venting epistle,
I felt so much better...
...it's quite therapeutic
to just write a letter.

The rest of the weekend
went really quite well...
...DH was respectful
and cautious as .... ...heck.

But after the weekend,
we saw our MC....
...he blasted my DH
but spoke quietly....

MC said the one thing
H needs is, in short....
...to just tell the truth,
or at least 'self-report!'

It's been a whole year
and there'll be many more...
...as we fight these battles
to win the whole war...

We can beat that alien
who still tries to score...
...by giving us head-aches
and age-lines galore...

...But as we succeed
and each other adore...
...Our marriage gets BETTER
than B'YOND the BEFORE!

THE END (or the beginning....)


I posted the following on MA in 2011.

How Gut Busting helped me avoid Love Busting

Have you ever had to bite your tongue to try to keep from love busting?

Recently, my H and I had a conflict that we overcame in the most unconventional way. The MB program basic concepts were the foundation for how we succeeded.

***

To recap the basic Marriage Builders basic concepts, the Love Bank account balances of each spouse holds the marital keys to happiness. Love Busters decrease LB balances.

Inherited or learned behavior patterns are instincts and habits respectively. These determine the level of love felt by spouses because they cause deposits or withdrawals from their Love Banks.

Love Busters are repeated behaviors that cause unhappiness. The most common Love Busters are Selfish Demands (SD), Disrespectful Judgments (DJ), Angry Outbursts (AO), Annoying Habits (AH), Independent Behaviors (IB) and Dishonesty. Continued love busting behaviors deplete the Love Bank accounts and results in spouses decreasing their love for each other.

Love Banks can be filled and re-filled by spouses knowing and acting to fill emotional needs (ENs). The most popular ENs are Affection, Sexual Fulfillment (SF), Conversation, Recreational Companionship (RC), Openness and Honesty (OH), Attractive Spouse (AS), Financial Support (FS), Domestic Support (DS), Family Commitment (FC) and Admiration. My top five are in blue and my H's top five are in red. Shared top five ENs are in purple.

My top EN is Openness and Honesty but O&H is was last on my H's list, which is one of the reasons his boundaries allowed him to have an A.

I have an additional EN in the form of my H being a Spiritual Leader in our family. When he takes the lead, I feel care for and protected. When he is weak and I am forced to take the Spiritual Lead, I feel insecure and vulnerable. This could be as simple as saying "Let's pray first" when we have a marital conflict or seemingly insurmountable challenge.

The Marriage Builder program describes the 2 SIDES of PERSONALITY: Giver and Taker

There are 3 STATES of MIND in the marriage: Intimacy, Conflict and Withdrawal
There are 3 POLICIES of CARE to protect the marriage: Undivided Attention, Radical Honesty, Joint Agreement

There are 4 guidelines for SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATION: Set Ground Rules, Identify Problems, Brainstorm Ideas, Choose Solutions that meet the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA)

I've taken the above from pages 210 to 210 of the book Fall in Love Stay in Love written by Marriage Builders founder Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.

***

So where does Gut Busting fit into the MB plans?

Click to reveal..
.......shocked No Where crazy


For me, however, it spontaneously helped me control my Love Busting inclination during a recent conflict and we were able to successfully resolve it so that we could remain in the marital state of intimacy.

Did it work? Yes

Do I recommend this technique for other couples to use when in conflict? NO!

Now that I've laid the basics, I'll be back to recap what happened yesterday and how "Gut Busting" actually helped me/us overcome a huge marital challenge that led to an emergency MC session. Hopefully, this will be a "one-and-done" experience. blush

Thanks for reading,
Ace

I posted the following on MA in 2011:

As mentioned in my previous post, my H and I had a conflict due to misperceptions and misunderstandings. I hesitated to address my personal concerns because I feared that H would become defeated and feel like he would never be able to measure up to my expectations.

From what I've learned, I knew that if I did not share my thoughts, I would develop resentment and inadvertantly sabotage our progress in our recovery.

When my H got home and we sat down to dinner, he dropped a bomb on me and I started to react with anger. But I got control and calmly explained what I was feeling, especially my fears that H would become defensive.

As he began to defend his position, my irritation started to rise.

But instead of biting my lip .....

..... I bit down on a:

Click to reveal..
.......burger....a turkey burger (or burgerS to be exact).


I tried to stifle my anger but while getting condiments out of their containers, I accidentally squeezed nearly a quarter cup of mayo on my burger. Instead of scraping the excess off, I dug a tablespoon into the relish and slathered that on my turkey burger, too.

H's eyes got wide and he asked me what I was doing. I calmly told him I was fixing my burger.

I reached into the jar and brought out a handful of pickles which I piled on top of the mayo/relish mix. I added lettuce to the melted cheese and even though it was on a thin bun, my turkey burger was the biggest, sloppiest, gooeyist burger I've ever made!

H began saying things that frustrated me, but instead of biting my tongue, I bit into my burger. crazy

I stayed calm on the outside even if I was burning on the inside. But just when I felt like saying something I knew I would regret later, I took another juicy bite out of my burger.

After I finished my first burger, I started the second one (I had made 2 for H but he could only eat one). Every bite took quite a while to chew and even longer time to wipe around my mouth. This bought time for me to try to keep my cool...it's hard to have an angry outburst while chewing a burger.

I think I shocked H....without even saying a word.

Just as I was down to the last bite (of my 2nd burger), H finally realized that what I was sharing made alot of sense. He leaned back and said, "Y'know, last night and this morning things were fuzzy but now that I think about it, you're right in all aspects. I was wrong and I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you and I'm glad you took the time to share what you were feeling. Can you forgive me?"

It's amazing how quickly my animosity dissapates when my efforts are validated. My anger decreased immediately an I accepted his apology and offered one of my own.

Our state of minds went from conflict back to intimacy instead of withdrawal like we had experienced for so many years.

Obviously the one huge drawback to this Gut Bust instead of Love Bust exercise was that I was so full that I could hardly move. TMI Warning:
Click to reveal..
smirk I briefly considered ipecac but discarded that idea quickly. smirk


Although I do NOT recommend this method for resolution, I'm glad we were able to overcome our challenge, even if it possibly took my shocking indulgence to jolt my H into clarity from the fuzziness he had been experiencing. Maybe...maybe not.

And the process continues....

Ace

I posted the following on MA in 2011:

It's been awhile since I've posted on my own blog.

I've been posting on Marie's Blog and commiserated with her feeling like she was an island and initially proud of it....until...

I shared that I was the same way but it got lonely after awhile. Then I began to hope and pray for a way out of my M because I based my loneliness on the fact that my H was impossible to change and I resented him and all the years I thought I had wasted. I needed a justifiable way out of our M but I didn't think anyone else would want him.

I posted the following on Marie's thread but moved it here now that she posted there.

Originally Posted By: Ace on MA in 2011
After I got my wish and my H cheated, I was in a state of exhilaration until our 20-something son begged us to try to fight for our family before we Plan D'd.

I know I've said this before but it was after I gave up what I thought I had that I got what I was seeking.

I gave up being an island and an isthmus to intimacy with my husband (mainland) suddenly began to develop, almost on its own.

Does that may any sense to anyone? If so, please explain it to me! crazy

Ace


Coincidentally, I just finished reading James Dobson's book Love Must be Tough and I think I've figured it out.

Originally Posted By: fddlr3
Makes total sense to me. Love to hear what you've figured out.


Thanks, Fiddler. I may have posted some of this previously but other epiphanies have recently arisen.

The Island, the Isthmus and Intimacy

On page 209 of James Dobson's Love Must be Tough, the author quotes from a previous book entitled What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women. I'll quote it later but what he said was evident in what happened to us.

For much of the first 30+ years of our marriage I felt trapped with no escape unless my H cheated, but I honestly thought that NO ONE would want him. I disrespected him by emotionally disconnecting and secretly planned to go it alone once I had a justifiable reason.

When he cheated in June 2006, I had my reason.

On D-Day #1, then-WH agreed to a quick D and offered to give me everything except his truck.

I was oddly euphoric.......until DS (20-something) tearfully challenged us to first fight for our family like we had taught them to do when faced with a challenge. His older sister refused to speak to her father but told me (in then-WH's presence) that she recalled our pastor saying that the best gift a father could ever give his children was to love, honor and cherish their mother.

Even if I had what some would call the wrong motivation, I agreed to try to fight to save what I had been trying to escape. By doing so, I inadvertantly gave then-WH the opportunity to give both adult kids the gift about which our pastor spoke decades before.

Then-WH appeared to follow through with my high bar requirements, making MC appointments for both of us, giving me access to his email account and seemingly being transparent.

After 2 false recoveries (uncovered without intentional snooping), I inadvertantly discovered evidence that then-WH was lying about attempting to contact OW just a few hours before we were scheduled to fly out for a 10 day sports vacation. That was November, 2006.

I gave up and agreed that then-WH should leave in his truck. He started to leave but when he reached the door, then-WH begged for strike #5.

I had previously decided to use the 10 days to get the house ready for sale, take the proceeds (while we still had equity) and start over in my early 50's. (I didn't know it at the time but my DD-20-something had decided that if we split, she would move back home to help me with the mortgage payments so we could keep the house in the family.)

So why didn't I follow through?

To understand my reasons, a little history is in order:

During the previous summer, my H had been highly recruited to pitch for a top level senior baseball all-star team (overhand hardball) which was defending its first World championship at a tournament across the country from where we live.

Then-WH really wanted to go but didn't want to go without me. I, however, refused to buy airline tickets until a few days before, not knowing if we would still be together. (By then only single seats were available which created another interesting aspect relevant to our sitch.)

My main motivation for going was to visit an elderly family friend who lived near where the tournament was held and could no longer travel. For years I had wanted to visit this friend but I did not call her to see if she was up to having visitors until the morning of the day we were supposed to leave. She was ecstatic to hear from me and said she'd make lunch reservations for us.

After I agreed that then-WH should leave and he headed for the door, I prepared in my mind to not go on vacation so I could prepare to sell the house and start over like I had previously decided. But a huge burden of guilt overtook me when I realized that I would have to call this elderly friend to cancel the lunch date she was so eager to share. I also realized that if something happened to her before we got to see her again, I would never forgive myself for cancelling our trip.

At that point in my thought process, then-WH turned at the door and asked, begged, groveled for another chance. It was pathetic but because it would lessen my guilt about seeing my family friend, I reluctantly agreed to go. By then, we only had 2 hours until we were to be at the airport.

Continued below:

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #308051
07/26/13 07:28 AM
07/26/13 07:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,542
Ace Offline OP
Advocate
Ace  Offline OP
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,542
Continued from above post:

We sat in middle seats of different rows (the only seats left due to my delay in making reservations). The guy in the window seat (who was in a similar profession as me) struck up a conversation which made the cross country flight seem amazingly short. It also gave me confidence that I would be fine if I was to start over, plus it made then-WH see me in a different light.

He saw me without him and combined with the events of the previous 12 hours, that was an entirely different experience for both of us.

When I read James Dobson's words, "We crave that which we can't attain, but we disrespect that which we can't escape," I realized that in our case, the latter part set the stage for the former part of that quote. I've never thought of that before.

An isthmus began developing to connect my island (decision to go on alone) to the mainland (intimacy with my soon-to-become-FWH) when respect was restored and I no longer wanted to escape.

How did respect begin to be restored?

In the wee early morning of D-Day #4, I gave my then-WH an ultimatum: If he could refrain from all love busters (we had been reading MB books) for the entire 10 days of our sports vacation, I would re-consider my plans to D. If he slipped, as long as he self-reported and apologized sincerely, it'd be OK. He only slipped once towards the end of the week when the pressure of the tournament was mounting but we were able to discuss it and both apologized for our parts.

We both saw and appreciated new aspects in our relationship and our respect for one another began to grow when we returned home. (It helped that his teammates also respected him by saying that because of his contribution, we maintained the World Championship title.)

That elderly friend has no idea that she played a role in our marriage but we make the effort to visit her every year we go (plus, we've won the title every year except 1 and that's debatable another time, another place).

By seeking OW for so long, H appeared to be someone who I might need to fight to attain and thus I began to crave him and our M more.

By my having a long conversation with the man sitting next to me our our cross-country flight, my H may have seen me in a similar light.

It never ceases to amaze me how we can think we know all this stuff but in reality, knowing more only reveals how much more we actually have to learn.

Edited to Add: Here is a link to the first post of this recovery thread Acey's Missing Pieces. Recovery is a very long process, a marathon more than a sprint, but hopefully we'll keep moving forward.

Thanks for reading,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #308052
07/26/13 07:29 AM
07/26/13 07:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,542
Ace Offline OP
Advocate
Ace  Offline OP
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,542
Originally Posted By: ohmy_marie
Quote:
In your professional opinion, what column titles and sub-titles should be included in a comprehensive "retirement planning" spreadsheet?


golf lessons
tennis lessons
bar supplies
beach supplies
flip flop fund

grin



hi marie....you funny lady sans capital letters!

sorry i've not replied sooner.

i finally remembered it was this thread when i started talking about retirement planning and i appreciate your suggestions. cool highfive whistle

if anyone else has ideas for how to plan for retirement, please post them on the new thread I just started in the CZ called ^^^Financial Literacy^^^ How to Make/Keep/Give Away Money.

Thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #331840
01/19/14 05:11 PM
01/19/14 05:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,542
Ace Offline OP
Advocate
Ace  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,542
hi marie waves

hard to believe it's been nearly 6 months since i replied to your post.

now, here i am again, replying to a post you put on Jayne's thread on the <<<MAgnify Marriages>>> forum called In Praise of our Spouses.

our recovery continues and continues to amaze me.

out of the blue, my H invited me to dinner friday night but because i already had dinner half done, we went out last night (saturday) instead.

we had all kinds of complications that might have put a damper on the evening in the past, but the fact that we did it anyway and stayed in emotional intimacy shows how far we've come.

NeverGuessed posted a restaurant web site on the Financial Literacy thread that lists eateries all over the nation that offer gift certs at heavily discounted prices. i bought a new visa gift card just to buy one of these certs (see the new "Rant" thread lil posted on the OT forum about the new card requiring to be registered online before being used).

because it was late and i didn't have time to register the gift card, we opted to use a valid gift card for a local restaurant that we both like. when we got there, however, we discovered they were running a special of 2 full meals for $29.99 which was good and bad....good because we would only use part of the gift card but bad because everyone and their mothers were waiting in line.

the hostess said the wait would be 40-45 minutes. eek

in the past, H would say, "no way, let's go somewhere else."

last night, however, he shrugged "OK" and we sat down to wait, together. later he said that he wanted to give me a break, not have to cook dinner, and just spend time together. that's why he didn't mind waiting.

i didn't know that so after a few minutes i commented that the mall where i needed to get something was across the arterial, but i argued with myself in the same breath that i didn't want to have to find a new parking place.

he turned to me and said that if i wanted to go - only take about 20 minutes ordinarily - i could go and he'd wait at the restaurant and would call me if our name was called early.

but, i had forgotten my phone.... and keys.

he gave me his keys and said it was OK for me to go and he'd just wait.

i left with a hoard of cars jockeying for my parking space.

i found what i needed unexpectedly on sale and when i got back, the car directly in front of the restaurant was pulling out just as I needed a place to park.

by then, guests in the waiting room were spilling out onto the outdoor patio and H and i had to share the same chair. he would have never done that in the past....fortunately i'm a little smaller than i used to be.

we didn't have to wait long to be seated and our dinner (including appetizers, biscuits, salad, entree and drink) was served quickly.

neither of us could finish our entrees so we have lunch today, too.

h asked me if i enjoyed the evening as he pulled into our driveway and parked our car where he normally parks his truck, which is in the shop.

i said, "yeah, it was great but is there a reason you're not putting the car in the garage?"

in the past, he might have become defensive but this time he just smiled, pushed the garage door opener, and sheepishly said, "Nope, just habit."

all in all, it was a delightful evening. the best part was it was all his idea, i didn't insist on making prior reservations like i would usually do. it worked out just fine....even better than fine.

again, thanks for asking.

acey


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #331843
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awww, that's a nice story! glad you two enjoyed yourselves!


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as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: ohmy_marie] #331862
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That is a nice story. I love that you felt that you could ask about popping out and that he didn't get all stressed and stroppy about the time together not being time together because you buggered off.

It sounds like a happy chilled out couple who feel comfortable and secure with each other. smile


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Squeaky Tree] #332852
01/26/14 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Squeaky Tree
It sounds like a happy chilled out couple who feel comfortable and secure with each other. smile


Hi ST, waves

You're right, we are able to chill out with each other but TMI:
Click to reveal..
things can still get pretty sizzling, too! wink


Sorry I missed your kind comment earlier. I was posting to a Newbie and thought I'd better make sure my link worked after I related that parts of our stories are similar. I didn't see your reply until now.

Thanks,
Acey


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #403568
01/16/16 11:46 PM
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Whooooah....it's nearly been 2 years since I posted to this recovery thread.

Soooooo...why are we not recoverED yet?

Many reasons....but the most recent is because of something H did 2 summers ago involving a guy who offered H an international opportunity that he considered taking. Not only did he NOT tell me about it but he hid the emails and when I discovered them, he erased them and gaslighted me.

If it had not been 2 weeks before the surprise milestone anniversary celebration DD and DS were hosting for us (with 150 RSVPs, rented hall, etc), I would have been out the door.

Finally, when he was cornered, he admitted his deeds, owned his stuff, humbly asked for my forgiveness and said he'd make an MC appt. to find out why he reverted to his old ways and get help with fixing it/killing such inclinations for good. He's followed through ever since as far as I know. (And we had a wonderful anniversary celebration that summer.)

So what happened today?

The same international guy called H, said he's in town and wanted to meet H for lunch. I jokingly said "don't let him talk you into anything" as he left and he didn't laugh as he walked out the door.

I triggered.

AAAAAAARGHHHHHH! eek

It's been nearly 10 years since H's EA and I see there's a thread debating the damage comparisons of PAs and EAs. Sometimes I think that the betrayal without the emotional attachment to a strange woman H never even met in person might be easier to overcome. Or not. Maybe I'll mosey over to that thread to get some insights.

Thanks for any thoughts you may have on how to eliminate triggers, if that is even possible.

And thanks for these forums we often don't need....until we do.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #403578
01/17/16 07:19 AM
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So what's the attraction from your H to this guy? I mean seriously does your H have STML (short term memory loss)?

I'm glad to hear from you but not happy about your circumstances. We r here 4 u. Ok?

Hugz,
Orchid

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Orchid2] #403580
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Aw, Ace, I'm sorry you've hit a rough patch. Things were going so well... confused

Have you had a chance to discuss H's meeting with this guy? Might be time for that once-a-year meeting with the "tough" MC, even if the calendar says it isn't time yet...

((((Ace))))

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Orchid2] #403592
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2
So what's the attraction from your H to this guy? I mean seriously does your H have STML (short term memory loss)?

I'm glad to hear from you but not happy about your circumstances. We r here 4 u. Ok?

Hugz,
Orchid


There's no real attraction....he's just a friend H helped out years ago and the guy has become very successful in international commerce and wanted to share his success with H.

Thanks for your support. I'll reply to RHW with more details for you both.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: right here waiting] #403593
01/17/16 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting


Have you had a chance to discuss H's meeting with this guy? Might be time for that once-a-year meeting with the "tough" MC, even if the calendar says it isn't time yet...

((((Ace))))

Hi RHW,

Thanks for the support. Actually we haven't seen tough MC since that summer so it will be 2 years this summer. After he helped us once a week initially----we'd usually get into a fight in the car after MC---he said we could cut down to once every 2 weeks, once a month, once every other month and eventually "once a year tune-up whether we needed it or not."

Yesterday's incident was my mis-perception but provides insight into what often happens when pre-conceived notions are allowed to run-amok.

You know why H didn't laugh---which triggered me into thinking he was possibly up to something nefarious---when he walked out the door to meet this friend?

He didn't hear me say what I thought was a joke.

When he got home, he said he told the friend that all his business options would take far more time and effort to get licensed and approved in the US and that he was not interested. Period.

The guy had helped H with many referrals years ago and H, a commission-only rep has been grateful over the years. He helped his friend with projects needing ELL services and they've been friends ever since. I've met him...nice guy but with a very aggressive entrepreneurial spirit. Combined with H's natural tendencies towards impulsiveness, the two together would be explosive----and not in a good way.

Anyhow, it gave me something to post about now that MA has our 1700th official member - Welcome momnurse! Not sure if she's posted yet but thought I'd mention her.

Again, thanks!
Ace

Edited to add: I just noticed that this is my 3100th post. In 5 and a half years, I have as many posts on MA as I had my entire first year on MB! Also, I just realized that it's been 9 years this weekend since Lifechoice and I both joined MB, unbeknownst to each other, BTW. Hey LC, are you out there? waves

Last edited by Ace; 01/17/16 03:51 PM. Reason: not sure if orange/brown is an OK color for member usage.....please revise for me if needed.

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #403600
01/17/16 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ace


Edited to add: I just noticed that this is my 3100th post. In 5 and a half years, I have as many posts on MA as I had my entire first year on MB! Also, I just realized that it's been 9 years this weekend since Lifechoice and I both joined MB, unbeknownst to each other, BTW. Hey LC, are you out there? waves


Looks like you caught my attention, lol...I got an email notification that you had posted on your thread. I didn't even remember I had notifications set up. Guess it's a good thing or I would have never seen this. I guess I should look to see what other threads I have on my "watch list"

Wow, 9 years? Guess that makes my A 12 years ago and a distant memory that I don't like to think about. Definitely don't want to think about the crazy train I caught a ride on.

It sounds like your DH did the right thing to tell the guy he isn't interested. I am sorry he still chooses to keep things from you and it makes you trigger. My thought on it is, if he hasn't changed that piece of the puzzle by now, he probably isn't going to.

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Lifechoice] #403609
01/18/16 02:08 AM
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Hi Acey! waves

Hey, LC! Like old times, dontchya know?


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #403615
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Glad that episode ended well, Ace, but there could be another. Like LC said, if he hasn't changed that habit by now, he isn't likely to.

Let's flip it over... What might you do to change your reaction to it?
Maybe that's a tall order; maybe it's not. Wanna get a convo going on that?

Last edited by right here waiting; 01/18/16 04:30 AM.
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: right here waiting] #403631
01/18/16 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: right here waiting
Glad that episode ended well, Ace, but there could be another. Like LC said, if he hasn't changed that habit by now, he isn't likely to.

Let's flip it over... What might you do to change your reaction to it?
Maybe that's a tall order; maybe it's not. Wanna get a convo going on that?


I think we should get a convo going about this Ace smile

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Mark1952] #403632
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Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Hi Acey! waves

Hey, LC! Like old times, dontchya know?



Yep you betcha, just like old times smile

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Lifechoice] #403640
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Originally Posted By: Lifechoice


I think we should get a convo going about this Ace smile
Maybe we should see how long she will go before breaking that 3100 deal.


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Mark1952] #403812
01/21/16 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Originally Posted By: Lifechoice


I think we should get a convo going about this Ace smile
Maybe we should see how long she will go before breaking that 3100 deal.


Hmmm, looks like it's going to be a while, lol

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Lifechoice] #403825
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3101...... dance2 3101..... dance2 3101...... dance2

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Orchid2] #404155
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Ace,

I took up your offer to read your incredible story, you have certainly earned your Angel Wings after all that you and your husband have been through together. angel

Appreciate your honest insight to your marriage and the affair, both the positive and counter productive behavior, it really gave me a little perspective on my own marriage..... and a little hope to get me through the rough days .

(I think Orchid is looking forward to your next post) yahoo


"No matter what path you take when recovering from infidelity, the road will be twisted and rocky" Attempting recovery Jan2016
DDay Jan2015, M26yrs DD23 DS19 DD17 DS15
http://www.healingafteraffairs-bloomington.info/infidelity/trauma-of-infidelity.html
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Roxanne] #404357
02/01/16 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Roxanne
Ace,

I took up your offer to read your incredible story, you have certainly earned your Angel Wings after all that you and your husband have been through together. angel

Appreciate your honest insight to your marriage and the affair, both the positive and counter productive behavior, it really gave me a little perspective on my own marriage..... and a little hope to get me through the rough days .

(I think Orchid is looking forward to your next post) yahoo


Thanks for your response, Roxanne. I read the first two pages of your thread and skimmed the rest. You have a much more difficult road ahead of you. I'll try to finish your thread this week and post some thoughts.

Thanks to all who posted to this thread. Sure I'm open to a convo but it might have to be after our MC session (once-a-year-tuneup-whether we need it or not) and most likely via email, PM or possibly in the Carport.

Thanks for caring and sorry for my delay and for this drive-by and run post.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #405729
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Hey Ace

Just catching up here on your thread.

Don't have much to add other than my support too.

Its funny that I have been on MA for about 5 years too.
When I started I was 57 now I just turned 62.(Hence Rich57)

Just from a mans perspective as we get older lots of things don't work as well.
So I can only ask what parts of your husband besides hearing are not working so well?
I hope he gets it together and wish you both well! smile smile smile

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Rich57] #406304
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Originally Posted By: Rich57
Hey Ace

Just catching up here on your thread.

Don't have much to add other than my support too.

Its funny that I have been on MA for about 5 years too.
When I started I was 57 now I just turned 62.(Hence Rich57)

Just from a mans perspective as we get older lots of things don't work as well.
So I can only ask what parts of your husband besides hearing are not working so well?
I hope he gets it together and wish you both well! smile smile smile


Thanks for your support, Rich. Hard to believe it's been 5 years. I remember taking a challenge you posed in the "book review" section---back then the review threads were separate---and I bit. In fact, I spent alot of time trying to answer those questions honestly.

I just saw where the author of that "Solo Partner" book, Phil Deluca actually registered as a member here on MA. It's been over a year since he posted on your thread but it's cool that he was/is here.

Thanks for your post Rich. Thanks also for your interest in our M. We had a few challenges but things are working better and better every day. We haven't had our MC tune-up yet but we will soon.

Acre


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #408960
05/09/16 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Acre


Jeez, I can't even spell my own name correctly. I forgot my original password and then lost the one the mods gave me for temporary use and was too embarrassed to ask for another one. blush

Found it today, lurked briefly, saw where Vibrissa had posted "HI Vibs!" and just found my temporary password. dance

Happy Mothers Day to all!

Ace

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #409005
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Hope you had a Happy Mother's Day, Ace.

You do realize that losing/forgetting those passwords is nature's way of telling you to visit us more often, right??


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Miranda] #409370
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Originally Posted By: Miranda
Hope you had a Happy Mother's Day, Ace.

You do realize that losing/forgetting those passwords is nature's way of telling you to visit us more often, right??


Thanks so much Miranda. We had a wonderful Mother's Day.

As for my prolonged absence, it's been an experiment of sorts to see if staying away from marriage forums will help us progress towards recovery more effectively. You'd think that after 10 years the bad memories would be replaced by new ones and the old triggers would fade away. It is happening....gradually.....but it's been a slow slog.

Actually I am grateful for having a fairly good memory, except in overcoming the effects of the A and multiple false recoveries. It's the repeated D-Days that make it doubly difficult to rebuild trust. I do realize that the blind trust we once had is gone forever.

Again, thanks for you kind words, Miranda. Hope everyone's well.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

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Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #409373
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The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #409375
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Thanks so much Miranda. We had a wonderful Mother's Day.

As for my prolonged absence, it's been an experiment of sorts to see if staying away from marriage forums will help us progress towards recovery more effectively. You'd think that after 10 years the bad memories would be replaced by new ones and the old triggers would fade away. It is happening....gradually.....but it's been a slow slog.

Actually I am grateful for having a fairly good memory, except in overcoming the effects of the A and multiple false recoveries. It's the repeated D-Days that make it doubly difficult to rebuild trust. I do realize that the blind trust we once had is gone forever.....


Recovery does indeed teach us a lot. Btw, those memories (bad ones) may never go away but their impact should lessen with time.

In reality it should never go away, otherwise we may be vulnerable to it's bad effects and can't protect ourselves or help others. I recall a rather unwise former friend demanding I 'forgive my father and go to his A wedding'. Well on that note and a few others, that friend ended a long time friendship. Sad but true and it's not something I regretted nor forgotten. If she ever is able to not be so stupid, our friendship can be repaired but she crossed a hard boundary I had and evidently friendship with my father is more important to her. That's her choice.

So life goes on with us accepting choices and making choices. Hopefully smarter ones as times goes on, hopefully. wink

Recovery does take time so don't feel like you are taking too long. I'm over 15 years past d/d and it still hurts. The double whammy with dealing with my father's A and his subsequent campaign of hurt is ongoing so I have used my experiences to protect myself going forward because believe it or not, I have 'stupid / ignorant relatives and family friends/acquaintances' who don't realize they have been duped to support an A something in their world they claim they abhor.

Consider this life experience as a valuable tool moving forward. I never wanted to experience it but if I had to suffer, as I did then I'm going to make sure I pull some 'lemonade' out so there will be a benefit, even if it is at a great loss. I am not about to give the victory to the WS side of the moon.

Take care,
Orchid

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Orchid2] #410111
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Originally Posted By: Orchid2

Consider this life experience as a valuable tool moving forward. I never wanted to experience it but if I had to suffer, as I did then I'm going to make sure I pull some 'lemonade' out so there will be a benefit, even if it is at a great loss. I am not about to give the victory to the WS side of the moon.


Thanks for your kind words, Orchid.

You're right in that there are some unintended consequences, as well as a few thinly disguised benefits of any of life's challenges.

How we move onward and forward is what's most important. That's one of the many reasons I'm grateful for MA. We have a place to learn and grow with others who have similar---or not so similar---experiences.

Again, thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Mark1952] #410112
05/28/16 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark1952


dance2 yahoo dance Rock 'n roll!


Hi Mark,

Thanks for strummin' on by.

Acey waves


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #410465
06/03/16 01:04 PM
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Acey, good to see you! How has it been? Is less exposure to the fresh pain of new folks here helping to put the painful memories back in perspective?

For me it helps a lot being around this positive momentum the folks here have, rebuilding. But maybe you're more internally motivated than externally motivated?


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: NewEveryDay] #410536
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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Acey, good to see you! How has it been? Is less exposure to the fresh pain of new folks here helping to put the painful memories back in perspective?


Hi NED,

Thanks for your reply.

How has it been? It's been an adventure. I think my withdrawal from constant exposure to the fresh pain has actually been helpful for two entirely unrelated reasons:

1. I'm so focused and busy at work that my overcoming my addiction to help forums (having to check in every day and often being late for work during the height of my addiction) has helped me be more effective at work. This, in turn, has helped because it refocuses my energy on my husband, family, church, sports, and other interests and away from my triggers and PTSD that have been affecting me/us for the past 10 years.

2. We are beginning the countdown towards "retirement" transitions which includes creating goals and ideas for the future. The "A stuff" is moving gradually to 'past history' and I can look towards my involvement with help forums as something I'd like to do regularly when our time commitment changes. The "A Stuff" is slowly morphing into life experiences that may give me/us additional avenues to do something I'll post on my other resurrected thread.

Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
For me it helps a lot being around this positive momentum the folks here have, rebuilding. But maybe you're more internally motivated than externally motivated?


If experimenting with avoidance therapy (taking a break from help forums) means I'm internally motivated then you're probably right. As you and a few others know, I haven't broken any relationships with our 'help-forum' friends my H and I have met IRL during this 'adventure.' So maybe I'm somewhat externally motivated as well.

At any rate, I think I'll answer part of your question on my other thread where private statements are somewhat protected from personal identification.

Thanks, NED. Looking forward to seeing you again this fall.

Acey


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #410585
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Originally Posted By: Ace


As for my prolonged absence, it's been an experiment of sorts to see if staying away from marriage forums will help us progress towards recovery more effectively. You'd think that after 10 years the bad memories would be replaced by new ones and the old triggers would fade away. It is happening....gradually.....but it's been a slow slog.



I completely understand your thought here. I don't check in at MA very often, I find I don't like the way it makes me feel to read anything A related. My original plan was to help people move toward recovery and as time has gone on I find it's best I stay away from the subject smile

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Lifechoice] #410600
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Hi LC! waves

Interesting how time has changed your perspective. I'm so glad you signed up for MB the same weekend I did, January 14-15, 2007. You were way down the recovery road at the time but your insights from a different view helped so many of us BS's understand things that had previously eluded us.

In fact, I seldom perceive you as a former WS. I think that getting together IRL with you and DocP is one of the major reasons.

Thanks for posting.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #410683
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Originally Posted By: Ace
Hi LC! waves

Interesting how time has changed your perspective. I'm so glad you signed up for MB the same weekend I did, January 14-15, 2007. You were way down the recovery road at the time but your insights from a different view helped so many of us BS's understand things that had previously eluded us.



Geez, hard to believe it was that long ago that we met up on MB.

Quote:
In fact, I seldom perceive you as a former WS. I think that getting together IRL with you and DocP is one of the major reasons.


Thanks Ace. I like to think I am very far away from the person I was back when I had my A smile

Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Lifechoice] #410837
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Originally Posted By: Lifechoice


Thanks Ace. I like to think I am very far away from the person I was back when I had my A smile



My H is a totally different person than before he had his A. I think it (the bad choice to be selfish) creates a dose of humble-pie that eventually comes back to haunt a person. For him, it was so out of character---as it is for many---that he can't believe he did what he did. At the time, the fog of excitement, secrecy, adventure, and fantasy clouded his judgement temporarily.

In my book both you, LC and my H ARE different people....better than before.

Thanks for venturing back to MA in spite of the bad feelings it may conjure up from the past.

Hopefully, being here and sharing our past errors and current experiences will make us all better people for the future.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: *** "A Migration of the Missing Pieces" *** [Re: Ace] #424807
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NOTE: It's been nearly a year since I posted this on StormVictim's thread in answer to his questions. Sorry, SV but it looks like I killed your R-thread with my long post. crying I'll move it over here since it's been over a year since I've posted on my own recovery thread. I'll be back to compare our current status with what I described last June.

Again, if you're still around, I apologize SV. Feel free to kill my R-Thread if ya want. blush

Originally Posted By: StormVictim
#411429 - Sat Jun 25 2016 09:06 AM Re: Wading Ashore [Re: Ace]
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Originally Posted By: StormVictim


But your note confuses me - and since ignorance is NEVER ultimately bliss, such confusion generates concern. Are you implying that you found your recovery being hindered by continued participation on threads such as MA?

<snip>

So, (and not knowing you at all, this is a truly intrusive question) approximately where in Mark's checklist would you say you and your husband were when you felt it advisable to take a break from actively posting here? And were you satisfied by the change in your marital situation for doing so?



Hi SV,

Again, I apologize for my delay in addressing your thoughts and questions.

Regarding your question about taking a break from online posting and how it affected our recovery.

I took an earlier break briefly from another forum (MB) after one week of posting (January 2007) when I got blasted for questioning Delayed Exposure. I allegedly misquoted a veteran poster who I thought had stated that there are times when delayed exposure might be advisable but such late action could be worse than letting "dead dogs lie" or however that saying goes.

I was off the forums for 2 weeks, researching more on the subject of Delayed Exposure to the other woman's husband. It had been 6 months and I had had what I thought was verifiable NC. My confidence came from my husband telling the site owner and his wife on their radio show that "he would do anything to help me heal" and he was consistently following up his pledge with actions.

In that instance, I took a break due to my own concern for what I was and was not learning. Instead of participating in the firestorm I apparently had caused and possibly getting more confused, I went to the source information and avoided the 'discussion' for 2 weeks.

Interestingly enough, the answer I got was that I should expose to OWH if it would help me heal. If it was for revenge or any other reason, the fact that it might backfire would not be worth the risk. I was advised to tell the OW that if she didn't tell her H what she had done, then I would do it myself.

My situation was very different from most BS's. I was actively trying to be the OW's friend, thinking she would not betray me any longer if she liked me. I had a severe case of what many call Betrayed Spouse fog. I think we have a BS Fog thread on MA.

This happened in January, 2007. Taking a 2 week break helped my marriage at that time because I could keep a focus on what an "expert" said I should do. It also helped when I decided that delayed exposure would help me avoid feeling paranoid about what OW's H might or might not do if he discovered what my H and his W had been doing at a later time over which I may or may not have control.

I took that possibility off the table by exposing to OWH myself, even after 6 months of verifiable NC. I called him first to verify his work address and then sent a packet of photo copies of OW's handwritten notes to my H and their emails about them wanting to get together IRL.

Keep in mind, my H and OW never met one time in person and obviously never had physical intercourse. But they did engage in phone sex so from that perspective, theirs was both a physical and emotional affair or what I call a P/EA. From my experience, emotional interactions can sink extremely deep roots into the infidelity addictions of vulnerable spouses. Quite possibly, those roots wreak more havoc than the quick thrill of a ONS with no emotional attraction IMVHO. That's from what I've read and heard from those who have experienced both.

Did my posting on an online marriage forum help or hinder our marriage and at what step were we on Mark's list?

My guess is that we were around Step #4 at the time. However Step #5, relating to triggers and Step #6--- allowing things to fester by avoiding what could be controversial topics---were also issues for me/us.

I began relying on my postings,--- first on MB in 2007 and then here on MA once we started it in 2010---for my self-recovery goals. Thus I developed an addiction to posting that progressed for 7 years. I knew I needed to change something when I realized that I did not feel like we were recovered after all those years. So I wondered if there might be a possible correlation between my reading and posting about infidelity issues and my inability to progress to where I felt like we were recovered. My husband feels like we are recovered because he has an uncanny ability to forget everything unrelated to sports. But he is sensitive enough to my needs so that he supports me in whatever I think will help me and US as a couple.

There is no question that posting helped us progress in recovery for those 7 years. I was not sure if it hindered our achieving the status of being recoverED but I was willing to find out. In order to do so, however, I knew I would have to break my posting addiction and subsequent withdrawal symptoms that we all know (and love) so well. NOT! blush

In the fall of 2014 my work load changed so drastically that I had very little time to take care of my personal life, our marriage and family, and my job, let alone continue daily reading/posting on an anonymous online forum that continuously reminded me of things I was trying to forget. I was also trying to work on an intense "10 year piles to files" project that I was nearing completion on when DDay 1 exploded and everything got randomly shoved back into several dozen un-labeled boxes. About the same time, some issues developed on MA but I had no time to seek clarification after my brief inquiry led to another question.

I melded all four events (needing to break my posting addiction, increase in work commitment, my piles to files project and my question about MA) to use as motivation to attempt to break my posting addiction. Thus, with zero fanfare I quietly disappeared from all MA forums. Fortunately not many noticed or if they did, I didn't see anything publicly the few times I lurked...and only a few said anything privately. Thus I was able to break the posting addiction I had started over 9 years ago. (In January 2017 it will have been 10 years since I registered and began posting on MB.)

I do appreciate those who called or emailed me during my absence.

In answer to your question about where our marriage is today and if posting or not posting helped or hurt us.

Here are my thoughts in no particular order:

1. Posting helped our marriage by giving me an outlet to vent in a safe space. I have an excellent memory, which is a double edged sword when trying to forget bad images. Even when everything seemed great, my continued posting often brought out issues that others could challenge and thus, possibly help me avoid potential land-mines down the road.

2. I knew that my addiction to posting might possibly be worse than my H's 6 month EA combined with the previous 3+ decades of my willingness to tolerate a sub par relationship and marriage. This was something I needed to do for myself if I expected him to continue changing, too. (More about that later.)

3. I realized that I needed to break my own habits and addictive posting inclination cold turkey. I did not say anything on the forums about where I was going. I just took a break. I occasionally emailed and even met with a few MA friends to update them on our progress but because of the four issues mentioned previously, I had little time to dwell on what I was missing by ceasing posting temporarily and decreasing reading about other's infidelity issues for over a year.

This may not work for others but it's what helped me. We may have been at Step #10 at one time but eventually may have regressed back to Step #5 relating to triggers because of my excellent memory for things I'm trying to forget. Go figure.

In spite of that, I would say that our marriage is much better today for several reasons which I will detail on my own recovery thread soon. (I promise to relearn how to link but in the meantime it's called "Ace's Missing Pieces" on this same Recovery Forum.)

In conclusion, I think that my 2 years of initial posting on MB really helped us on our recovery journey tremendously. Fortunately, I had many veteran MB posters reach out to help me via email when I could no longer post safely there. That's one of the reasons that I and others badgered the eventual founders to create MA in the fall of 2010.

I hope both you, SV and SK will use MA to give advice and get help in ways you may not realize you need until way down the road. And if, after 7 years, you feel like you may need a break to reach the fullest status in achieving a recoverED marriage, I hope you'll find a way to do whatever you need.

In the meantime, I hope you'll both continue to share your stories, seek help for the many challenges ahead---yes there will be more I'm sorry to say---and continue to grow together, using your experiences to help others who find themselves on this un-intended (or for some, initially unknowingly deliberate) journey.

I'm guessing that you two have increased your chances at success because you are both seeking help with changing yourselves, here on MA and elsewhere. My H will most likely never post on a discussion forum for anything, not even for sports. I don't fault him....he's just different. Anytime we need to seek help from our tough MC, however, he's willing to make the appointments so I can't complain.

Again, we appreciate your being here on MA and thanks for asking about our status. I've only glanced at SK's thread (could not read any of it while I only occasionally lurked) but I've been impressed with what you both seem to have accomplished in a relatively short period of time. May you continue to recover your marriage and rebuild it to an even better place than it was before the A-bomb nearly blew it all to smithereens.

Thanks for reading and Best wishes,

Ace

P.S. Sorry to put such a long reply on your recovery thread, SV. Let me know if you prefer that I move/link part of it to my own recovery thread.




We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #443123
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It's taken 13 years but I think we've found the missing pieces. I am confident that we have recovered our marriage and have begun building an even better one than we had before.

Thanks to all who helped us on this tumultuous journey. I'll post more on a protected forum.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #443124
06/07/19 07:43 AM
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O
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HI
That's good news, Ace.

Very happy for you and your family. smile

All the best,
Orchid


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #443125
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Acey that’s awesome you both have done the work and both deserve to reap the rewards!


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #443132
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Taa—Daaaaahhhh! Very happy for you both!

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #443135
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We're on the road celebrating a milestone anniversary so no more time. I just posted on the other forum as promised but will be back here soon.

Thanks for your care and concern.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Orchid2] #443233
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Originally Posted by Orchid2
That's good news, Ace.

Very happy for you and your family. smile

All the best,
Orchid


Thanks, Orchid.

Appreciate all your support over the years beginning at the other place.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: NewEveryDay] #443234
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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Acey that’s awesome you both have done the work and both deserve to reap the rewards!


Hi Neddy,

Y'know, it seems like we did all the work for all these years but couldn't really accomplish our goals until 'life took a turn' and interfered. Don't wish this on anyone ever (life challenges) but am happy with the results.

Hope to see you and others in Florida in November.

Acey


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: right here waiting] #443236
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Originally Posted by right here waiting
Taa—Daaaaahhhh! Very happy for you both!


Hi RHW,

Thanks for your continuously supportive sentiments. It's always been baffling to me how you and I could have one of the same DDays (discovered on one of the few times you posted at the other place) but you and your H seemed to achieve the "state of recoverED" so much sooner than we did.

I guess the most important thing is that we persevered until we GOT HERE. The journey is now a fading memory....unless it's helpful for others down the road.

Like Neddy, we hope to see you and H in Florida this fall.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #443561
07/13/19 08:46 PM
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I am so happy for you Ace!

Your post forced my out of retirement, lol...I had no idea what my login info was and I feel like I forgot how to post but here I am to congratulate you! lol

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Lifechoice] #443564
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Originally Posted by Lifechoice
I am so happy for you Ace!

Your post forced my out of retirement, lol...I had no idea what my login info was and I feel like I forgot how to post but here I am to congratulate you! lol



Hey LC,

I posted on my "request for help" thread in another forum back in the Fall of 2018 when we were having a major health crisis. Soooooo much has happened. You and others played a huge role. I don't think we'd be together today if it wasn't for that other unnamed forum....not just because of the posts but because of the cyber acquaintances who reached out and became IRL (in real life) friends.

Looks like we're headed back to Florida in Nov. I'm still hoping we can have a mini informal MA gathering part 2. We had a fun time in 2016 with NED, LA, RHW and their significant others and DH/me. Orchid joined us by sending a Care Package of Hawaiian goodies which we opened while Facetiming her from the beach. It'd be fun if you and DocP could join us.

Welcome back....don't stay away so long. ---I know, I know...I've been gone years at a time, too. Had to contact the mods for how to log in cuz I forgot both my password and login name.

Again, thanks for all your help and good wishes.

Ace

PS Just checked and this is my 3330th post! My OCD for multiples of 5 still strikes occasionally.

PPS I just got an invitation to take a Marriageadvocates Survey because I'm a special guest. I deleted it but then realized it might be legitimate. Anyone know?


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #444865
03/20/20 03:50 AM
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Hey, Hi! waves

If you're still on line Miranda and Neddie, glad to see you are/were logged in. Hope you're doing well.

We're doing OK. I've posted an update on another forum.

Take care,
Ace


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #444868
03/20/20 01:59 PM
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I’m in and out pretty much daily for a hot second.

I’m doing pretty good. Working like a 3 legged sheep dog in a storm but I’m up for it! Hope you’re doing ok too!


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Miranda] #444879
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Originally Posted by Miranda
Working like a 3 legged sheep dog in a storm but I’m up for it!


Hi Miranda,

Hope you're still able to work. I am, too, but mandated to stay at home because I'm old. foggy

The amazing thing is that IT equipped my work desktop with net-motion and VPN and I got to take it home!

How's everyone else doing?

Ace


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Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #444881
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It doesn’t get much more essential than medical laboratory science. I’ll be working for the duration. Harder and longer as the days go on.

I envy folks who can work from home a little bit.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: Ace] #444889
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Hi Ace and Miranda smile

Glad to see that you're both well.

Miranda, what a blessing you are to us! Thank you for all that you have done that brought you to this point and for all that you will do because of it. smile

Ace, I hear ya about the old thing. Before we were required to stay home, my grandson got sick (thankfully it was the flu!) on the day that he was scheduled to spend the night at my house. He called me to tell me that he wouldn't be coming because I'm old and he was protecting me. lol

Stay safe and be well.

Re: ***Acey's Missing Pieces ~ Our Recovery Saga*** [Re: LivingWell] #444897
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Originally Posted by LivingWell
Hi Ace and Miranda smile

Glad to see that you're both well.

Miranda, what a blessing you are to us! Thank you for all that you have done that brought you to this point and for all that you will do because of it. smile

Ace, I hear ya about the old thing. Before we were required to stay home, my grandson got sick (thankfully it was the flu!) on the day that he was scheduled to spend the night at my house. He called me to tell me that he wouldn't be coming because I'm old and he was protecting me. lol

Stay safe and be well.


Hey ELLE DUB,

So glad to hear from you. Not sure if I still have your number but I might give you a call sometime.

Thanks for all your hard work and commitment, Miranda. We owe all our medical workers on the front lines and in the back labs huge {{{{virtual hugs}}}} and gold stars. yflag (Couldn't find gold stars so a gold flag will have to do.)

Keep up the great work.

Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story