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Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #38631
12/21/10 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Most people who move on or cheat have already decided that "where they are sucks" to a greater or lesser extent. And they've decided things are not going to get better. Unsafety sucks. Being overwhelmed a lot of the time sucks (Avoiders). Being left alone hanging a lot of the time sucks (Clingers). Lots of other things suck, too.
Quote:
By the way "suck" is a very high level technical term invented by some very high level psycho-professional. eek That's why I use the term. Cuts to the chase.
Needless to say people move away from where it sucks. They have the idea that the new place will suck less.
Describes my STBXH's thought process to a "t" frown. Don't know if there was infidelity involved, but at some point that's irrelevant.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #38753
12/21/10 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
"Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die."

That was the quote to which I was referring.


I didn't know that quote and I don't think I like it. Seems to me it is kind of like those pieces of advice to forgive people. Some I like and some not. Forgiving "too soon" seems to lead to trouble. Besides I think it wise to hold people responsible for what they do.

I imagine we will get into that in another topic.

Thanks for clarifying your message, OH.


Al, I would agree that the term Forgiveness is often used inappropriately.

I've heard the same thing you stated many times; "Forgiving 'too soon'." And it certainly can lead to trouble, but the problem may not be so much because of the forgiveness as it is with the person being forgiven and with a lack of understanding by the forgiver of what forgiveness is and when it's appropriate.

"Forgiving too soon" and "Forgiveness is the gift you give yourself" are two phrases that often raise my "alert level." If the focus is on self, the action (forgiving) is basically meaningless. It may give someone a little "warm fuzzy" feeling for a while, but the minute something happens to cause them to feel "not safe" they forget what forgiveness is, and the promises that they make when they choose to forgive someone for something they have done.

I look at forgiveness as primarily two things. First, it is a command concerning sin from God's perspective. To forgive as I have been forgiven is the operative thought.

Second, it is NOT a "blanket command" but is dependent upon an action by the one who is seeking forgiveness. To grant forgiveness without a "requirement" is to fool oneself, because forgiveness is not the same thing as expunging all consequences.

So, for example, when Jesus instructed us to forgive "seventy times seven times" it is because of the reality of sin. But the operative "trigger" for that granting of forgiveness is the repentance of the sinner. It our responsibility to forgive when repentance is present, even if the person later succumbs to more sin and has to again seek forgiveness.

But integrally tied to forgiveness are two other realities.

The first is that forgiveness does not remove all consequences of sin or the offense for which forgiveness is sought. Sometimes the consequences can be eliminated by choice of the forgiver and sometimes the consequences will be around for a while, perhaps even for the rest of one's life. Some things cannot be "undone," they can only be forgiven.

The second reality is that the person who is granting forgiveness is simultaneously promising that they will do some things related to the sin and the sinner.

"You promise:

1. I shall not use them against you in the future.

2. I shall not talk to others about them.

3. I shall not dwell on them myself.

Just as the only way to begin to feel right toward another is to begin to do right toward him, so the only way to feel properly toward another, and ultimately even to forget those wrongs that he has done to you, is to keep the threefold promise that you make when you say ‘I forgive you.' You see, you don't have to feel forgiving in order to grant forgiveness; you just have to forgive. " ( What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour? by Jay E. Adams)

These promises hold true for all instances of forgiving, but are especially essential when dealing with infidelity and the potential recovery of a marriage.

This sort of forgiving will play a big part in reestablishing trust as the "weapons" that both the faithful and the unfaithful spouse use, or may use, are laid down and "safety" is realized by choice, by conscious decision. It's not that consequences are done away with, it's that we learn to live with the consequences that may still be present from the original act of sin or offense.

They are a types of boundaries that are established, regardless of feelings. Obviously there are also many other boundaries that may need to be established in order for the goal of a recovered marriage to become a reality. They may include such things as places I can no longer go, people I can no longer see, things I can no longer do, etc. that would be detrimental to both the marriage and to self, as well as to our spouse. The boundaries will usually revolve around things I no longer allow myself to do to others and things I will no longer allow others to do to me, each with attendant consequences for violations of those boundaries.

As you said, it may be a topic for another thread, but proper forgiveness does seem to be an integral part of reestablishing trust.


In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #38825
12/21/10 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Forgiving "too soon" seems to lead to trouble.


Yes, it does. Janis Spring calls this "cheap forgiveness", and it tends to enable behavior.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: Lil] #38881
12/21/10 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
I have been trying to explain the lizard to DH... not sure if he's getting it.

After reading this thread and the testicular stuff I see I am by nature an avoider, but because of the A have some very strong clinger tendencies.


Keep slugging away, Lildoggie. Should have seen me trying to explain the Lizard to my partner! Wow! Not easy. Tough for a Clinger to teach an Avoider anything, I think. Took lots of time and patience. In the meantime I used the concepts of the Lizard to help me in the tasks of "making her feel safe around me," and to "get the benifit of leaving while she was still with me."

Eventually the concepts of the Lizard and Reliable Membership became hers too. Afterall we were observing the same phenomena and even if we value things differently, the concept and experiences were useful in bringing us together. She reads my articles and says, "OK."

OH and while you are observing your Avoider nature, remember that everyone is both. It often becomes stable in a particular relationship. If I get over 80 units, I display avoider traits. If I get under 80, I start to display clinger traits. I wrote a bit more about this in an unfinished article called the Other Feelings for those of you who want to go deeper.

Keep figuring it out and applying it to your buddy, too.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: ForeverHers] #38888
12/21/10 10:00 PM
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Great to have you back here, ForeverHers. Thought I might have run you off.

By the way I like your name FH. The whole purpose of my life sometimes seems to help people be foreverbuddies of each other - all the long way through death.

Also I enjoy the familiar language that you use. Being raised Christian and having explored and ventured into many denominations, the words are so familiar -- familiar tends to comfort my Lizard.

I think the subject of Forgiveness is really really for another topic. But you never know when it will come up so I will share some here about it. First I don't think of forgiveness as an act - rather as a state of being. That's how I interpret Jesus. I think He was trying to teach that one does not forgive or not forgive - one tries to live a) in a state of knowing God's forgiveness and b) passing that on among each other.

I think the magic is in PreValidation (look up on my site) which is an attitude of forgiveness even before you connect with others - for both self and others.

Oh I'd better stop this. Back to Reliable Membership.

Enjoy.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #38938
12/22/10 12:39 AM
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I think letting go of resentment is different than forgiveness. I can refuse to forgive my ex for his lies to me, and what they cost me (especially since I don't feel genuine remorse from him), but I can at the same time choose to quit holding that resentment that keeps me from moving forward... hence I agree with the statment about resentment being like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.


Let me not be so vain to think I'm the sole author of my victories and and a victim of my defeats. -- ze frank
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: TACticGAL] #38996
12/22/10 02:58 AM
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Quote:
I think letting go of resentment is different than forgiveness. I can refuse to forgive my ex for his lies to me, and what they cost me (especially since I don't feel genuine remorse from him), but I can at the same time choose to quit holding that resentment that keeps me from moving forward... hence I agree with the statment about resentment being like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.


Yes, acceptance is important. Harboring resentment and hatred hurts you, and doesn't really affect the other person at all. Acceptance is an act of self-care and self-healing.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #39111
12/22/10 04:06 PM
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Al,

Oddly enough, I think that I switch from clinger to distancer fairly frequently. Although I am overall the clinger, in many situations I distance. I can think of many times I've run away just to get out of a tense situation when my lizard was not feeling safe, and felt the situation was beyond my influence.

Regards,
AR


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #39115
12/22/10 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Great to have you back here, ForeverHers. Thought I might have run you off.


On the contrary, Al, I have simply been reading the posts and responses, not wanting to potentially interfere with the process you seem to be establishing. I do disagree with some fundamental assumptions, but that is also why I have chosen to not interject my thoughts on any regular basis. I will respond to this post since I do think it touches on another fundamental issue, but then I'll probably just go on to other things.


Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
By the way I like your name FH. The whole purpose of my life sometimes seems to help people be foreverbuddies of each other - all the long way through death.


Thank you. It is a commitment statement, not of "buddies," but of my commitment to my vows, my marriage, my wife, and my God. It's a short recognition that there are more important things in life than "just me," and in the context of infidelity was my statement that regardless of the outcome of that crisis, some things are always forever regardless of circumstances. That was my "stand" regarding my wife regardless of her infidelity.


Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Also I enjoy the familiar language that you use. Being raised Christian and having explored and ventured into many denominations, the words are so familiar -- familiar tends to comfort my Lizard.


As do many people, but the "language" isn't necessarily intended to be soothing because words do have meaning. It certainly can be soothing, but the words come from the reality of, not just the "nice idea" of, God and Jesus Christ.


Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I think the subject of Forgiveness is really really for another topic. But you never know when it will come up so I will share some here about it. First I don't think of forgiveness as an act - rather as a state of being. That's how I interpret Jesus. I think He was trying to teach that one does not forgive or not forgive - one tries to live a) in a state of knowing God's forgiveness and b) passing that on among each other.


Forgiveness certainly can be, perhaps should be, a subject of another topic, and maybe I'll reproduce a thread that I had on another system from some 7+ years ago on the topic of "Forgive? Trust? Really?" You might find some of it interesting reading, or not.

I would agree that being a forgiver is a state of being, but forgiving is an act, a conscious choice to forgive. It is not, imho, merely a feeling or a state of being.

I would also have a different interpretation of what Jesus said about forgiveness and perhaps the best way to address that difference of opinion would be to "go to the source" and see what He actually said about forgiveness as an act and a choice, as well as a state of being.

As a state of being, this is what Jesus meant should be our "natural state," having received forgiveness for all of our own sins.

In Matthew 18 Jesus is talking to Peter about forgiveness. The custom of the time was that forgiving someone 3 times was considered to be a lot, and Peter thought that if he forgave 7 times, more than twice the "usual," he would be forgiving as God meant.

Jesus answered Peter in Matt. 18:22; "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." (NIV) The point that Jesus was making to Peter is about being a "forgiver," the state of being if you will, that there is no arbitrary limit wherein once it is met the person can "safely" no longer be a forgiver. The number, or phrase if you will, that Jesus used was so much larger than anything anyone of that day would consider so as to emphasize the continual requirement for forgiveness, and the attitude that someone should have as a forgiving person. Jesus went on in that parable of the Unmerciful Servant to illustrate the "state of being" that one should have. Jesus summed it up in verses 32-33: "Then the master called the servant in: 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I cancelled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?"

But being willing to forgive is not just a state of "being," it requires an action, which is the act of forgiving someone. Choose to be a forgiver and choose to actually forgive "as I have been forgiven" is what we are instructed by God to be and do.

Matthew 18:35 - "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." This verse "marries" the state of being and the action and precludes a simplistic sort of "I forgive you." It's not just a "feel good" thing, it must be a heartfelt choice, and one that includes the promises that I quoted earlier in the previous post. It is both a choice and a commitment.

In Mark 11:25-26 Jesus stated; "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Jesus is again speaking of the state of being a forgiver, but He is also stating that we cannot hold onto resentment and be a forgiver. That thought was embodied in the Lord's Prayer when Jesus said: "forgive us our debts (trespasses) as we forgive our debtors (other's trespasses against us)." It was further embodied in His plea to the Father as He paid the price for our sins; "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Jesus was not saying to the Father, "forgive everyone" just to feel good because forgiveness only comes from God and only according to His requirement for His granting forgiveness. God does require an action as a precursor to forgiveness, and that action is repentance that leads to acceptance of Jesus as one's personal Lord and Savior.

That is where forgiveness often "goes astray" in that not only can it be given "too soon," but it can also be confused with resentment. "Letting go" of resentment is something we need to do, and can be thought of as a form of forgiveness, but only in the sense of releasing that resentment to God because He is the judge concerning actual forgiveness of sin.

One cannot disconnect the state of being a forgiver from that act of forgiveness. In Luke 17:3-4 Jesus spoke about this: "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

In John 20:23 Jesus gave His instructions to His disciples concerning forgiveness: "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." That is not a call for "blanket forgiveness." It presumes the true need for repentance and seeking forgiveness as a result of that repentance. It is not that the disciples were not forgivers at heart, a state of being, but that forgiveness was a choice, and that choice was dependent upon the person seeking forgiveness. It was not intended to simply make them "feel good" that they had "forgiven" someone.

So being a forgiver is a state of being, but it's not enough. That is a starting point. One must also choose to forgive, to actually do the act of forgiveness with all it's attendant promises.



Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I think the magic is in PreValidation (look up on my site) which is an attitude of forgiveness even before you connect with others - for both self and others.

Oh I'd better stop this. Back to Reliable Membership.

Enjoy.


Al, thanks for the link to your site, I did enjoy reading the articles. I guess "magic" is in the eye of the beholder whether it's the pre-validation idea or whether it's God as Creator. No doubt substantive change in a person may look quite "magical."

From your PreValidation article:

"Once you see this iceberg metphor, you will probably realize that people are not capable of doing something that is not a result of all those molecules, all those components, in their iceberg. People are not capable of doing something that is not a result of all their stuff."

Two brief comments;
1) I would disagree that pre-validation is synonymous with forgiveness. It does seem to bear heavily on communication and discussion, even understanding, but it's not the same thing as forgiving someone for sins against you. AT least that's my humble opinion.

2) I agree with your iceberg metaphor as it relates to people in their natural, pre-forgiven by God, state. We are incapable of changing on our own without God's active participation in such a change. The idea here is that people naturally have a "heart of stone" and no human being can make that heart a "heart of flesh." But that is precisely what God does for believers when they accept Christ. That is, if you will, a "game changer" of very large magnitude. That is especially true with what you referred to as "the Wall of the Unconscious or Wall of the Unknown.

One way of looking at it is that God changes people at the level of desire. The "inclination of the heart," if you will.

But in general, I think the iceberg metaphor works well. Your conclusion; "People are not capable of doing something that is not a result of all their stuff" is also a good description of the basic nature of fallen human beings. It is the "stuff" that needs changing if there is to be a real change. God is very good at changing the "stuff" of which we are made, but we are not. "Alchemy" doesn't seem to work for humans because we lack the ability to truly create a new person from the old person.


In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #39117
12/22/10 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Although I am overall the clinger, in many situations I distance. I can think of many times I've run away just to get out of a tense situation when my lizard was not feeling safe, and felt the situation was beyond my influence.


A great example of the difference between the need for Reliable Membership and the functioning of the Lizard. Lizard panics and flees. Well, that is one it's tactics. It does this when it get's in its "head" that it is gonna die. The triggers for this thought are many. While we may think these reactions are "misunderstandings," the Lizard doesn't care.

One of the things that triggers the Lizard is mid-brain fear of not enough connection (loneliness) and of too much connection (overwhelm). That is the material for this topic. The Lizard supplies the reactivity, the mid-brain in this case provides the trigger.

Among the other things that trigger the Lizard are upper-brain functions: feeling unheard, feeling misunderstood/invalidated, feeling rejected or judged defective, feeling dominated, etc. But those are for future topics.

All these things go on in a human at once. I separate the functions out so that I can understand them and share them.

And bless you, AR. I believe the term "odd" is one we use on something/someone that is making sense right before we get to see that sense. Once we see their sense we stop thinking of them as "odd." This includes yourself.



Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #39122
12/22/10 04:43 PM
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Quote:
One of the things that triggers the Lizard is mid-brain fear of not enough connection (loneliness) and of too much connection (overwhelm).


I trigger from too much connection and connection/interaction of a negative type. This includes your list of higher brain activities, but that's a future topic...so I won't go into it.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #39220
12/22/10 07:37 PM
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Yup. You got it.

Let me share an example. My cortex really hates criticism or critical words. Depending on my mood, I can handle listening to these more easily or less easily. My Lizard is the "freaking" agency, but my cortex is the part that handles the words.

Let's say, and this is kind of real, I can listen to what I think are 5 criticisms-per-minute under most circumstances. Remember I don't like one, but can handle/be amused by more. That also means that if I get 6, normally I my Lizard will take over. If I am a bit tired, hungry, etc. I may only handle 2 before things get too much for my cortex and my Lizard freaks quicker. In both case the "criticisms" are seen by my cortex as negative inputs. The difference in reaction is the issue of "what now is too much, too often." And the Lizard is the reacting agency - "I'm gonna die." Tis very very logical to me, now that I can see the interplay of these components.

Also this understanding, this model, makes it much easier to craft functional and specific solutions to these situations.

  1. Lizard freaks? You manage to give it reliably caring/nurturing behaviors until it relaxes.
  2. Lizard tense (not freakin'] because of excessive (often impatient pushing) or insufficient or unreliable contact? Give it space/time. Be predictive to it. Give it more contact.
  3. Lizard tense (not freakin') because of higher level triggers, then create good boundary skills. Oh and if Lizard freaks, use step 1, til it works, then step 2 if necessary til it works, then step 3.

    Heres a list of some of the higher level triggers:
    • people interrupting you,
    • misunderstanding you,
    • disrespecting you,
    • threatening when you show that you are different,
    • people theatening you cuz you don't want to be obedient,
    • people telling you who you are, defining you,
    • people mistaking who you are and judging their fantasy of who you are,
    • people blaming you or anyone,
    • people trying to get you to be responsible for their troubles, etc.

Ah, not bad. How's that? Keep them examples of Lizard and Reliable Membership examples coming.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #39255
12/22/10 08:51 PM
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So let's say you have a spouse prone to AOs (angry outbursts)...a lizard behavior for sure. How does one go about calming his lizard to divert the AO? Or does one calm their own lizard (by taking it on a walk OUT of the room), instead?

Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: OurHouse] #39265
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Quote:
How does one go about calming his lizard to divert the AO?


I think the point is that you can't calm someone else's lizard once it's been triggered, at least not by contact. One cannot reason with a lizard. The lizard has no reason. At the point of an angry outburst, it is best to remove yourself from the situation until it calms down...and before your lizard takes over and reacts in kind.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #39269
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Let's say, and this is kind of real, I can listen to what I think are 5 criticisms-per-minute under most circumstances. Remember I don't like one, but can handle/be amused by more. That also means that if I get 6, normally I my Lizard will take over. If I am a bit tired, hungry, etc. I may only handle 2 before things get too much for my cortex and my Lizard freaks quicker.


Not only do I have a sliding scale for mood, but I have a sliding scale depending upon the source and the expression of the criticism. For instance, if a stranger criticizes me, no matter how badly, my lizard barely cares. If my partner criticizes me I can handle it only to a point. That point is a function of how the criticism is expressed, my mood, and the subject matter.

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle


Heres a list of some of the higher level triggers:
  • people interrupting you,
  • misunderstanding you,
  • disrespecting you,
  • threatening when you show that you are different,
  • people theatening you cuz you don't want to be obedient,
  • people telling you who you are, defining you,
  • people mistaking who you are and judging their fantasy of who you are,
  • people blaming you or anyone,
  • people trying to get you to be responsible for their troubles, etc.

Ah, not bad. How's that? Keep them examples of Lizard and Reliable Membership examples coming.


Pretty good, especially the coping/handling behaviors. I've bolded the higher level triggers that hit me hardest, and italicized the ones that trigger (but to a lesser degree). None of them are left without an indicator, though.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: OurHouse] #39291
12/22/10 10:46 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Worst things I think you can do are a) be silent, withdrawn while he pursues his AO, or b) give in, try to placate him or divert him, or c) have an AO back at him. All I think are foolish.

I think of AOs as simple temper tantrums. Sure they are Lizard behavior, but have morphed into a "successful" tool for the user. And it turns out I found these are easy to fix. I am with AR on this. Basically you generously claps almost instantly give your partner a TimeOut . Name the length of time and go!!!. Let his Lizard discover that the result of an AO will be loneliness. Since his AO has some reason behind it, respect the reason but do not tolerate the AO. Let him select a more successful skill than AO.

A TimeOut is a powerful akill, part of the issues of Reliable Membership. If you have Clinging and Avoiding issues or AO's, get good at the skill of TimeOuts.

By the way, I think this advice is simple, direct and I believe in it completely. But it does seem hard to do. :santa:


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #39427
12/23/10 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Basically you generously claps almost instantly give your partner a TimeOut . Name the length of time and go!!!. Let his Lizard discover that the result of an AO will be loneliness.


At some point I suggested to my sister that she try a timeout with her H when he has an angry outburst. She later told me that she felt that it was a positive choice for her when she tried it. She has done a lot of therapy and personal development over the years, but she was almost tearful when she said to me "no one ever told me that it was OK to walk away from someone who is having an [AO] before" and she was grateful that I had "given her permission" to do that. No one ever told me that either and it wasn't until I started learning about boundaries recently that I encountered that idea.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: flowmom] #40427
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Quote:
Let his Lizard discover that the result of an AO will be loneliness.


Al, are there any lizards who either don't mind or have become indifferent to loneliness?


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #40429
12/26/10 04:55 PM
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I either need to get better at the Time Out, or it's not the right strategy. He gets angrier. It's best when he gets angry enough to leave the room...because I *don't* follow him (as he does to me when I calmly announce I'm leaving the room, the house, etc., as he follows me around telling me I don't get to control the conversation).

If I say something and he gets mad, he will often utter a sarcastic comment, or try to argue with me or pick me apart/pick apart what I'm saying. Either is followed by his stomping out of the room before I have a chance to reply.

Quite honestly, I prefer this. Even though it's really bad behavior, it lets me be in peace.

Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #40497
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Al, are there any lizards who either don't mind or have become indifferent to loneliness?


Dear AR,

As far as I know, all humans posess Lizards and all Lizards like to be alone. One thought I have is that when you see a person moving toward quiet, aloneness or indifference, you are watching a human who is dominated by their Lizard - at that moment. I think it is the mid-brain which supplies the desire/need for connection and it will do this whenever the Lizard is calmed down. If you see them withdraw and they appear calm, I suggest that their calm appearance is just Freezing or Submitting.

Oh, Timeouts. If your Lizard needs a quiet timeout, and you don't get it, I think your Lizard starts to mistrust you. Take it for a walk. Do not let your partner follow you. Do let them know how long before you will either reconnect or allow reconnection.

And my wife reminded me, "Avoiders often experience contact as conflict."


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: OurHouse] #40499
12/26/10 08:16 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: OurHouse
I either need to get better at the Time Out, or it's not the right strategy. He gets angrier.


Of course he does. That's why you are taking a TimeOut.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #40772
12/27/10 03:38 PM
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This is fantastic, in reading this I have realised I have tamed to a certain degree my own lizard.. I have a very panicky one, I always used to jest that my H couldnt see past his own nose and I could see the consequences of a single action for the next fifty years.. The result being that whilst H was admiring his own nose, I was getting in a right panic about not being heard, listened too or him realising how this single action filled me with fear!

Well last year my worst fear happened.. My darling H of nearly 25yrs left me, my lizard went into melt down. Thanks to some very dear DB friends I managed to retrain my lizard, yes it does have its moments when I need to kick it into touch and tell it to behave grin But the upshot was my avoiding husband came home!

Hence the next bit about avoiders and clingers which reading today has opened my eyes to what we are, I am a serial clinger and H a serial avoider.. I was so bad that I would fill any space without words with my own, I hated the very sound of silence between us.. NO MORE! I let him have his space, I leave gaps in the talking, felt very weird at first but gradually after his own verbal time out he begins to fill them.. Im no longer scared of time on my own, I get busy GAL and fill them for myself so fill doubley filled when my H fills my needs too!

AL you have put into words and logic what happened to me and I cant wait to carry on reading

Thank you

Rabbit

Last edited by lost rabbit; 12/27/10 03:39 PM.

Once was lost but now found and happily married!

The story
http://www.marriageadvocates.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/34625/Where_do_I_go

Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: lost rabbit] #40793
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Congratulations, Rabbit. I imagine your Lizard feels a whole bunch better just having an idea of what is going on for you and for him. Go 4 it.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #40800
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Quote:
And my wife reminded me, "Avoiders often experience contact as conflict."


When an avoider is in a conflict situation, they usually experience contact as conflict.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 2: "Stop chasing your partner away!" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #40974
12/27/10 10:11 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
And my wife reminded me, "Avoiders often experience contact as conflict."


When an avoider is in a conflict situation, they usually experience contact as conflict.


Sandra's thought is that for some Avoiders "just contact," any kind, is often taken as conflict. Thus they often need non-contact, alone-time, to feel at peace. She would say that sometimes an Avoider would start feel in-conflict 30 minutes before the next contact happens. She showed me that a salesperson walking toward her on the beach in Mexico was a "source of conflict" while 100 feet away. Stunned me. For me learning to be a source of Peace and Safety to her was quite a challenge, but doable. Really taught me a whole lot about Lizards.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
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