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Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434494
03/26/18 02:06 PM
03/26/18 02:06 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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I feel so much pressure I am having trouble concentrating. Mrs H's 4 hour MRI on Friday. Responding to the firm about their promotion offer. Trying to fund Mrs H and DD's road trip in May. Trying to fund Mrs H coming with me on the business trip in June. Her car radio broke. My car has the check engine light on. Argh.

I know Mrs H is stressed out by the mass behind her eye. And I know how much she loves travel and how fantasizing about future travel is the best medicine for her. But when I am struggling to deal with the high price of flights from the US to the country where my work trip goes, and then she says "hey, don't cheap out and only take me there, I want to spend the second weekend of the trip someplace different." Well, that pushes my stress beyond the breaking point. Last night she said she wasn't going to join me. Outwardly I expressed unhappiness. But inwardly I was thinking that might be best. Less cost. Less stress. Just have my work trip be a work trip. it is not as if she has not traveled a huge amount over the past 2 years since the cancer ended. We just got back from CA and OR. She is driving from TX to CA with DD. We are going to TX for a football game in August. She is planning to go to OR with her mother to visit DS in October. Rough life, huh?

And SFB, I know I should have her increase the withholding. I am glad I got her up to $2000 for 2017 from zero the year before. Now I need to give her a new W-4 for 2018 and get her to $5000.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434505
03/26/18 05:47 PM
03/26/18 05:47 PM
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What would make you enthusiastic about bringing her? Updating the tax form? Taking more hours at work? Eating out less? Something else?


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434514
03/26/18 11:32 PM
03/26/18 11:32 PM
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Increase her withholding just like you plan to do.

What would help alleviate the concern? Can Mrs. Hold pick up some extra hours to help pay for the trips?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434519
03/27/18 12:24 AM
03/27/18 12:24 AM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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NED: I don't know if there is anything that would make me enthusiastic. Once the airplane ticket to country #1 went above $1500 (my internal mental budget for her airfare and our meals and entertainment combined), and the combined 3 city ticket went above $2000, I became UNenthusiastic about turning this trip into a vacation. Plus making a 5 day one country business trip into a 9 day two country vacation? With Mrs Hold wanting to do guided tours or costly attraction activities in both places? Mrs Hold is probably correct that she should not go, because I am going to be anxious and stressed about every dollar we spend. No fun to be with. Let her do the road trip in May with DD and they will have a great time together. Money better spent that spending a week with me being a grouchy Grinch.

I had a nice time last month together in CA and OR. I had a nice time with her in NY last Saturday. I expect to have a nice time with her in TX when we go to visit DD in April. But the travel budget is out of control. Not sure I can get enthusiastic about stretching it to cover her joining me in June. Eye mass or no eye mass, the budget is not unlimited. We are talking thousands of dollars extra for her to go. She makes $10 an hour. She already works 7 days a week. She worked over 2000 hours last year - full time hours for her part time job with no benefits. I can't be enthusiastic about asking her to work more hours to cover this. Even if she wants to, I would not feel good about it. I know, invalidating and infantilizing her. Still, I would feel bad. Dumb to do a trip I know is going to create friction rather than good feelings.

Would it help if she "traded" me the trip for increasing her withholding? Not sure it would. Her income costs us $8,000 in taxes. I am enthusiastic about covering maybe $3,000 of that. So she needs to move up from $2000 to $5000 of withholding. If she moved all the way up to $8000, would I feel enthusiastic about her joining me? No, I don't think so. I am glad I posted here and glad to ponder these issues. Don't think I got to a place she will like. But at least I considered new perspectives.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434526
03/27/18 02:20 AM
03/27/18 02:20 AM
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Hold last year or so it was Europe, I think the answer was you would rather find ways for her to not go, so this response was an improvement?

Outside of this trip, do you want her to be happy? Do you still derive pleasure in seeing her not get what she wants?


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434545
03/27/18 01:14 PM
03/27/18 01:14 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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NED: I do want her to be happy. Get what she wants? Very difficult for me to separate that from cost. I love it when she enjoys her job. I love to hear stories about how one of the members really appreciates her warm smile. I love it when she sees friends for a walk or to have a cup of tea. Do I want her to get all the foreign travel she desires? Much more complicated question for me. I get very anxious when she pressures me to spend more than I feel comfortable spending. It is like PTSD. I get flooded. Very tough for me to have a calm rational discussion of how long we should go, where, what to do, etc. I realize it is unrealistic as we are two different people, but I want her to react as if what I am offering is enough, instead of constantly pushing for more. Her pushing for more makes me feel like it will never be enough (just as I am sure she felt back when I was pushing for more sex). At that point I don't want to do a trip with her at all. Yes, the irony does not escape me.

But that is the point. I have taken sex off the table because it is so triggering for her. Yet she does not take "pressuring Hold to spend more" off the table. So when I feel pushed too far and devalued and taken for granted, yes, I enjoy telling her "no, you can't have that". Phew. Hard to type that.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434546
03/27/18 01:21 PM
03/27/18 01:21 PM
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Miranda Offline
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Wow

That is SO parallel to how my husband and function and how I feel concerning the "sex paradox"

It's crazy.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434559
03/27/18 04:12 PM
03/27/18 04:12 PM
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Specifically, do you want to make her happy, in ways that are not at your expense? I think it would soften the blow to say, you really wanted this trip in Europe to be just business and veg out alone for a week, but that you want her to be happy, and what can I do to make you happy here. Like that day together you had sounded beautiful, to have some of those to look forward to may make the same deposits. If that's what you want.

Quote
I want her to react as if what I am offering is enough, instead of constantly pushing for more.

You know everybody feels that way, right? But it is good news when your wife tells you there is something you can do that makes her happy, the same way it's good news when you tell her what she can do that makes you happy. Isn't that what relationships are about, extraordinary care?

I get you that y'all have this power struggle issue where the heels are dug in. But it really moved me what Miranda said yesterday about freedom coming in many forms, not just the obvious ones. Maybe you can find other ways to be happy together regardless of whether the rope ever gets dropped on the main issue.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: NewEveryDay] #434564
03/27/18 05:44 PM
03/27/18 05:44 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Specifically, do you want to make her happy, in ways that are not at your expense? I think it would soften the blow to say, you really wanted this trip in Europe to be just business and veg out alone for a week, but that you want her to be happy, and what can I do to make you happy here. Like that day together you had sounded beautiful, to have some of those to look forward to may make the same deposits. If that's what you want.


Yes, if it does not come at my expense, I want her to be happy. Mostly I want her to want to stay married to me. Happy helps with that.

Quote
Quote
I want her to react as if what I am offering is enough, instead of constantly pushing for more.

You know everybody feels that way, right?


The difference is that I have given up for pushing to get what I want. I HAVE allowed her to only provide what she feels like offering. I do not push for more of what I want from her. I just want her to show me the same courtesy. Maybe what I am offering is NOT enough for her. Then she can leave. Not what I want. But no, I am not interested in providing more. If she needs more to be happy, then she will not be happy. I hope that is not the case. But I recognize it might be.

Quote
But it is good news when your wife tells you there is something you can do that makes her happy, the same way it's good news when you tell her what she can do that makes you happy. Isn't that what relationships are about, extraordinary care?


I see it differently. She tells me something that would make her happy (long trip to multiple countries), but I can NOT do it (because I don't have enough money). That does not make me feel honored that she shared her needs with me. That makes me feel inadequate and a failure. I realize that is inside my head. But after all these years, she is not oblivious to that reality. She does not present the extra days of vacation as a fond wish or dream that she likes to fantasize about but realizes isn't going to happen in the near future. She presents it as a minimum standard for her to enjoy the trip, and questions why I have not already pressed the "book it" button on the web page. If I know I cannot meet the minimum requirement for her to be happy, I would rather not do it at all.

Yes, just like our decades-long sex fight. I have wised up and stopped asking her for sex. I wish she would stop asking me for things I cannot afford. I know she never will (or at least not likely she will do so before she hands me divorce papers). That is what makes this depressing.

And no, she doesn't see it as good news when I tell her what she can do to make me happy. Because she can't do that, either. Well, to be honest, at this point I don't think there is anything she can do that would make me happy. And she knows it. And that is depressing to her. Fair and balanced. Just like I like it.

Quote
I get you that y'all have this power struggle issue where the heels are dug in. But it really moved me what Miranda said yesterday about freedom coming in many forms, not just the obvious ones. Maybe you can find other ways to be happy together regardless of whether the rope ever gets dropped on the main issue.


We find ways to be happy together while at home on the weekends. We go out to eat. We go hiking. We go to movies and concerts and shows. We go shopping. We talk about the kids. I like being around her most of the time. It is when we start talking about big ticket items for the house (renovate the kitchen) or expensive vacations that we come into conflict and my PTSD gets triggered. I recognize that most people to not give in to defeatism as easily as I do. I realize she will continue to press for things she wants, and objectively that is a psychologically healthier behavior than my defeatism. But having given up on ever getting what I want, it burns me when she keeps pushing and pushing me to spend lots of money we don't have for things that she wants.

What I want on the money side is to scale back our spending and pay off our huge credit card debts. I want to pay down the huge student loan we took out for DD 3 years ago. I want us to live within our means so that maybe someday when I am too old to work we don't have as many bills to pay as we do now. Mostly what I want to do is scream, but I don't think screaming at her lines up well with my wanting her to be happy and stay married to me.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434568
03/27/18 06:24 PM
03/27/18 06:24 PM
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Hold, I agree with NED it is healthy for marriage mates to be able to ask for what we want/need. There is a limit though. I assume she is fully aware of how deeply in debt you are and how much these vacations cost. I do think though that you send mixed messages. You go in debt for things that most of us would not consider necessities....but balk at what she wants. To her these are the same thing. I think it is way past time for a very frank discussion about the budget including the vacationing budget, including visits to the kids. Since your dd is graduating soon (this year or next?) this is a good time to make it VERY clear what the budget has to be.

Until then, just tell her....we can't do X if we do Y. One or the other. For instance, the trip with your dd or the trip with you abroad.

I don't like this part of Mrs. Hold, but I do think it is on you to be consistent with the budget,

I also don't think she is anywhere near divorcing you.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434569
03/27/18 06:35 PM
03/27/18 06:35 PM
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Quote
Maybe what I am offering is NOT enough for her. Then she can leave.

I think this attitude is worth questioning. If you made your DD waffles for breakfast, and she said Dad thanks, you know what else I like is blueberry syrup, would you get all mad and next time buy more maple? Or would you get blueberry next time?

Quote
I don't think there is anything she can do that would make me happy....What I want on the money side is to scale back our spending and pay off our huge credit card debts. I want to pay down the huge student loan we took out for DD 3 years ago. I want us to live within our means so that maybe someday when I am too old to work we don't have as many bills to pay as we do now.

This sounds like a great start. You deserve to be happy.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434584
03/27/18 08:32 PM
03/27/18 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I know she never will (or at least not likely she will do so before she hands me divorce papers).
That is what makes this depressing.

This sounds so much like my former Jewish American Princess.
That story did not end well.

Sorry to add to the downer post with my observation but I am just following along.

I hope you do not follow in my footsteps and I thought you were over the worst of it.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: NewEveryDay] #434591
03/27/18 11:29 PM
03/27/18 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
You deserve to be happy.


Yes, you DO deserve to have peace and happiness.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434592
03/27/18 11:38 PM
03/27/18 11:38 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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I am way past being able to compromise or negotiate or ask for what I want. I can't have what I wanted. Now I just want her not to divorce me.

I am exceptionally consistent. I say yes to her until I can't. Then I say no. And I lash out at her for asking for more than I can provide. it is a dysfunctional system. But it is the system I prefer. It keeps me trapped here. Trapped here is where I wish to stay.

They offered me a promotion at work. They cannot understand why I turned it down. They said it would lead to pay raises down the road. They said I am looking at this with too short a time horizon. That I am leaving money on the table. Funny, they think I am trying to maximize my income. You might think I would want to maximize my income, seeing as how frequently I complain about our debts and not having enough money. I do not. I don't want to get out of debt. I want to stay in debt and wallow in my discomfort and throw a giant pity party that causes my wife to lose all desire and respect for me.

I am exactly where I wish to be. Exactly where I feel more comfortable.

Last edited by holdingontoit; 03/27/18 11:39 PM.

Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434610
03/28/18 12:36 PM
03/28/18 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
They said it would lead to pay raises down the road.
They said I am looking at this with too short a time horizon.
That I am leaving money on the table.


How long would this take?
You are not a spring chicken.

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434626
03/28/18 04:11 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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Rich: Exactly. I had tried to avoid admitting how old I am. They have a mandatory demotion policy at age 65. I explained that if I took the 1 step promotion now, by the time I could expect the 2nd step, it would just about be time to start transitioning me to demotion mode. So there would be precious few years for me at step 2 to be worth taking the pay cut in the interim.

As it happens, I currently occupy the position that they demote you to when you reach age 65. But those who were formerly senior and get demoted have a much worse deal than I currently have. My plan was to stay here and keep my good deal until I reach age 67 and qualify for full SS benefits. That seemed better than getting a no raise promotion, and then maybe a few years of slightly higher income (but with substantial pressure, risk and liability), and then getting demoted to a deal worse than what I have now.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434627
03/28/18 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Rich: Exactly. I had tried to avoid admitting how old I am. They have a mandatory demotion policy at age 65. I explained that if I took the 1 step promotion now, by the time I could expect the 2nd step, it would just about be time to start transitioning me to demotion mode. So there would be precious few years for me at step 2 to be worth taking the pay cut in the interim.

As it happens, I currently occupy the position that they demote you to when you reach age 65. But those who were formerly senior and get demoted have a much worse deal than I currently have. My plan was to stay here and keep my good deal until I reach age 67 and qualify for full SS benefits. That seemed better than getting a no raise promotion, and then maybe a few years of slightly higher income (but with substantial pressure, risk and liability), and then getting demoted to a deal worse than what I have now.



Your reasoning is sound to me.

Are they going to let you stay where you are?

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434628
03/28/18 04:22 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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I hope so. We just have to spin a tale of how the senior executive who pushed for my promotion found a way to keep me happy that is even better for the company. I am confident that my fevered imagination can come up with a suitable cover story.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434648
03/28/18 09:59 PM
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I like your angle. Hoping it goes well for you. Fingers crossed!

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434700
03/30/18 12:49 PM
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holdingontoit Offline OP
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Mrs H in the MRI this morning for 4 hours. Just dropped her off. Let us all pray it is infection or thyroid imbalance and not metastasis. Good weekend for praying.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434701
03/30/18 02:35 PM
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Hold

It is a good weekend for prayer. The "superbowl" for our people. So I will join you in it. I've had a lot of mine answered as of late, so I have a lot of good juju going. I'm going to throw it ALL your way today. Every last scrap of it.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434711
03/30/18 09:43 PM
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Yes Hold I'm praying too pray


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434725
03/31/18 05:25 AM
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Me too, Hold. Sending happy thoughts!

Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434731
03/31/18 05:21 PM
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Easter prayers from a long way away heading your direction


You have brains in your head
You have feet in your shoes
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own and you know what you know
And YOU are the one who'll decide where you go
Dr Seuss
Re: Am I still a doormat? [Re: holdingontoit] #434764
04/02/18 12:49 PM
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Seems we may get good news on Wednesday. Most likely a thyroid disorder and not cancer. Phew. Thanks for all the warm wishes.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
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