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Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Miranda] #323191
11/12/13 11:42 PM
11/12/13 11:42 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: Smiling_Wife
My question to you is if you are so positive that he has been unfaithful to you why would you be furious if someone told you?


It would draw into question the justification for his post D-Day behavior. That would REALLY piss me off.

And if I knew, we'd have to talk about it. Blech.

Plus there is always the risk that I would obsess about the partner and use her perceived superior traits as a club with which to bludgeon my self esteem.

He was never home early in our marriage, and he has lived every other week in another city for the last seven years. He led and leads a whole separate life which has nothing to do with me. He could have had 50 affairs without me suspecting a thing.

Let's assume someone read for a while on the MB board, and thought "I really need to tell LadyGrey about the relationship her husband had with his admin in 2010," so they tell me.

How does that improve my life? It doesn't.

I may be "entitled" to know, but with the right to know comes the corresponding right to not know.

Originally Posted By: Miranda
I imagine it is because she doesn't feel like it is any of her business. She's just not invested in his sex life. It doesn't matter to her. Sort of like my husband doesn't really care how I format my documents in word.


Exactly. He's giving away something that means nothing to me -- may as well be a business card.

Originally Posted By: hold
I would think it is more along the lines of not wanting to be put in a position where a response is expected, when you would rather ignore the whole thing. For LdG, she is now put in a position of trying to decide how to respond. "I always suspected, that you for confirming it," said with a smile, and then changing the topic, would seem odd. Now LdG has to figure out a response that will make sense to the "informer". The informer cannot possibly know the entire backstory, because if they did, they would know that LdG did not want to be presented with this disclosure. So now LdG feels obliged to decide how much of the backstory to disclose. That is long and complex and not flattering to either LdG or her husband. All the while LdG is thinking "remind me again why I speak to you at all". Which isn't fair to the other person. Since LdG can understand why someone ignorant of her situation might feel compelled to disclose what they know. But understanding is not the same as agreeing.

All this inner conflict and annoyance and feelings of obligation to be civil while you are inwardly seething and I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO FEEL ANY OF THIS IF YOU WOULD HAVE JUST KEPT YOUR BIG MOUTH SHUT AND LEFT ME ALONE!


OMG, I never even thought about the human interaction that would be involved. If your conscience requires it, tell me but bring a gun so you can shoot me before I have to respond.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #323202
11/13/13 01:42 AM
11/13/13 01:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
I have become increasingly convinced that there is a whole subset of people out there who have confused "noble" with "nosy"

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323239
11/13/13 05:50 AM
11/13/13 05:50 AM
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SmilingWife Offline
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
I have become increasingly convinced that there is a whole subset of people out there who have confused "noble" with "nosy"


Or maybe they cannot conceive of a person who would not want to know. All I can think is how I would want to know. That whole do unto others concept ya know.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: SmilingWife] #323248
11/13/13 12:55 PM
11/13/13 12:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
If I knew someone didn't Want me to do unto them I wouldn't. Understand, I would want to know too. But this Don Quixote like obsession some people have with exposing all adultery - even that of strangers - is odd to me.

I would be hurt if my best friend knew my spouse was cheating and didn't tell me. But if some stranger told me...that'd just be disturbingly creepy.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323260
11/13/13 02:08 PM
11/13/13 02:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Vittoria Offline
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LdG, thank you for your responses. Time to post hasn't been in the cards the past few days, hopefully on the weekend. I didn't want you think I've dismissed our conversation. Lots of interesting stuff being discussed here.

might need to add 'and lots of other junk' to the thread title. lol


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323289
11/13/13 04:12 PM
11/13/13 04:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
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SmilingWife Offline
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
If I knew someone didn't Want me to do unto them I wouldn't. Understand, I would want to know too. But this Don Quixote like obsession some people have with exposing all adultery - even that of strangers - is odd to me.

I would be hurt if my best friend knew my spouse was cheating and didn't tell me. But if some stranger told me...that'd just be disturbingly creepy.


I am not likely to have absolute proof of a stranger's adultery. Even if I did I doubt I would expose. But honestly I wish anyone....a stranger or not....would have exposed to me.

You can't win with everyone all the time. All we can do is what we think is the right thing at any given time.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #323350
11/14/13 02:18 AM
11/14/13 02:18 AM
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holdingontoit Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
OMG, I never even thought about the human interaction that would be involved. If your conscience requires it, tell me but bring a gun so you can shoot me before I have to respond.


See, I knew we were the same person inside, just wearing different genders on the outside. "I would obesees about the partner use their presumed superior traits as a club to bludgeon my own self-esteem" - check, exactly how I would react.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: holdingontoit] #324717
11/27/13 02:47 PM
11/27/13 02:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,219
Florida
Gladstone Offline
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Florida
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
OMG, I never even thought about the human interaction that would be involved. If your conscience requires it, tell me but bring a gun so you can shoot me before I have to respond.


See, I knew we were the same person inside, just wearing different genders on the outside.


Heh. Say, aren't you both lawyers? smile


**Formerly known as Cuthbert Calculus**

"There is enough sadness in life without having fellows like Gussie Fink-Nottle going about in sea boots."

Glad Tidings

Gladstone's Sucess Story
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Gladstone] #324725
11/27/13 03:29 PM
11/27/13 03:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 13,424
midwest
Miranda Offline
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I do believe they ARE, Gladstone.... fascinating


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: SmilingWife] #324780
11/27/13 11:13 PM
11/27/13 11:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Lil Offline

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Originally Posted By: SmilingWife
But honestly I wish anyone....a stranger or not....would have exposed to me.



Ditto. People knew (or suspected), but felt it wasnt their business. That meant I got to expereince the joys of having a loving husband turn into a cold man and no idea why.

I respect there are people who would rather not know their spouse is having an affair, and good to know that. However some of us would really like to know just what the bloody hell is going on so we can act accordingly.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #334521
02/08/14 04:08 AM
02/08/14 04:08 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lil
Originally Posted By: SmilingWife
But honestly I wish anyone....a stranger or not....would have exposed to me.



Ditto. People knew (or suspected), but felt it wasnt their business. That meant I got to expereince the joys of having a loving husband turn into a cold man and no idea why.

I respect there are people who would rather not know their spouse is having an affair, and good to know that. However some of us would really like to know just what the bloody hell is going on so we can act accordingly.


Lil, I think in general that those folks are in a less acute place.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #338764
03/11/14 09:32 AM
03/11/14 09:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Lil Offline

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Hmm?

Are you talking about the BA or tbe WS? and do you mean less engaged in the marriage, or less nutty smile


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #339425
03/13/14 01:19 PM
03/13/14 01:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Vittoria Offline
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Better late than never, right. Again, my apology for not getting back here sooner.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I had no idea that you lived with the "nothing going on" thing for so long. I had no idea that there were financial aspects to the affair. I had no idea you had to be a sleuth.

Our sitch wasn't unique, lying and using family finances to support an A are givens. The most important aspects I learned in the beginning about A's, was to not underestimate the depth of deceit by a WS, the lengths they would go to protect their A and how much harm they would allow to a M and family, emotionally and financially. Many of us here have read horror stories and many here have lived them, stories that seem so extreme yet they're true. It makes sense to arm yourself the best you can (#1 being get your head out of the sand asap to the possible degree of damage) to prevent further harm to yourself and the family.

Quote:
Maybe the power in the polygraph had less to do with the "truth" you were getting than the fact that you were committed to creating some boundaries.

Yeah, more so with the second go round of still wanting the test. The first round was simply seeking some truth. Remember, I was learning about boundaries, not an expert at all about enforcing (do we ever get to expert levels with this???). The second go round of the test, you're right, it was about committing further to that boundary, verifying the truth I had and less about new truths I considered less important, all in that order.

Quote:
I don't believe in the accuracy of polygraphs and was taught that they are pointless in law school. I revisited that issue here -- mainly because I was astonished that people were actively promoting passing a polygraph on MB as a requirement for reconciliation (yes, Dorothy, we have gone completely insane!)

It sounded crazy to me the first time I read it being suggested to someone else. It's not a tool I'd suggest lightly to use and it's not one I'd demean if a BS was considering one. If a BS decides to use this tool and follows through, unless they give the impression they are doing it vindictively, I would support them cuz I know how difficult the process is to wrap your head around. Aside from finding it unbelievable you are going to such lengths, you open yourself up to ridicule for resorting to a poly from anyone who has not been in your shoes.

Quote:
I view MB like East Berlin -- you can't actually talk to anyone there but maybe you can influence the thinking a bit. I feared that those that followed that advice might break up their families -- impacting their CHILDREN -- based upon questionable science.

LdG, it's not the test that breaks the family up and impacts the children, it's the deceit and thoughtlessness of an A. We got past the poly episode fairly quick. The A/ deceit, took much longer to heal from and that damage was far more devastating to our M and our family than any test could be.

Quote:
I found no independent studies that confirmed accuracy beyond mere chance. And I LOOKED. And Medc presumably looked WAY harder than me, but not a one did we find. All of the studies that support the accuracy are sponsored by polygraphers. They just ARE. I didn't make that up.

I don't believe you made any of that up. I also read a lot, spoke to some people who had experience with polygraphs and who also helped me find a reputable polygraph tester. I believed there was enough accuracy for what I needed. On the flip side, a WS sponsors his/her own truths, the person who willingly and convincingly lied to your face day after day. At the time, the accuracy of my H was zero so the poly's accuracy was miles ahead that point.

Quote:
I can see, I think, using it as a tool to bring things to head. What I can't see is placing any merit in the report.

Yes, it can bring things to a head and cause a whole lot of conflict. It was that very conflict that led to squashing the elephant in the room which led to the steps leading to recovery. MaryEmma said she would take a poly if her H felt it would be helpful to him, just the offer to take one to relieve fear in her H shows more care and concern than what an actual test would confirm. Merit is measured in more than one form.

Quote:
Marriage can suck the life out of you. I had a friend who said my family put a vacuum cleaner hose in my ear and sucked the life out of me. FTR, I had to go back and edit that sentence several times to make it honest. It's shameful, really.
Divorce seemed like the Holy Grail -- someday, maybe -- or something I earned by suffering X amount, except X was never defined.

An unhealthy marriage will drain both spouses. It may be obvious in one spouse the damage being done and not so obvious in the other yet there is still hurt on both sides.
You mention yourself not defining X amount of suffering before D was earned. In my case during the unhealthy years, I looked at it as my H's job to realize the hurt he was doing and change the dynamic. Why couldn't HE see X amount of hurt, hear my X amount of hurt. Looking back now, that was backwards. It was my job to do something about my hurt other than become resentful and continually move my line up with tolerable hurt and continue to blame him for it. Blaming him was a way to avoid taking responsibility myself.

Originally Posted By: LadyG
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The test was initially offered up an opportunity to reassure me that I was safe from lies in the M regarding the OW. No brow beating, no demands. I was posting on MB at the time and brow beating/demands over this was NOT encouraged, very much frowned upon actually.

Well, that's astonishing. Are you sure? Browbeating, judging and demanding seem to be the three rails on which MB rides.

Yes, I'm sure on that. My vulnerability as a new BS put me in a spot of doing something I'd normally not do but I'd still had enough sense to rationalize out the pros and cons of what was posted to me. When you separate emotions from logistics (understanding A's help with this), goals and the means to them become more clear.

Originally Posted By: LadyG
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The second go-round re: poly was stated in the same manner but the focus was specific and life altering cuz it had to with me remaining in a M having doubts about the extent of what he'd disclosed.

What possible difference did it make? Why did you need to know?

You might have a hard time understanding this one cuz I know that honesty is not (or didn't use to be) high on your EN's list. It's #1 on mine and for as long as I can remember even before knowing about EN's. It's always been the most important. I needed to know my H was telling me a very important truth, was he even capable of that. If he wasn't able to give me one truth, what would make think anything that came out of his mouth was true. Envisioning a M of always looking over my shoulder, being afraid of the other shoe to drop, was less than appealing. I'd be miserable with growing resentment (btdt) and in turn be miserable to him and myself.

Quote:
I'm glad for y'all -- and I am being sincere.

I'll take your word on this, thank you.

Quote:
I wouldn't do it for a whole host of reasons, one of which is that what we have is so tenuous, it wouldn't survive me being hooked up to a machine being asked about orgasms.

Those types of questions weren't ever suggested to me by the forum or the tester and I don't remember reading suggestions like that on internet poly info. You figure out what truth is most important with guiding your decision to remain in the M, and go with it. It's not about how much can I humiliate my WS or make him squirm.

Originally Posted By: LadyG
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
It's all past history now. Could it have been solved a different way, I'm sure there are several ways to approach it in hindsight. It was what it was.

No doubt. Have no idea what that better way might have been but it seems to be always elusively out of reach.

The best scenario would have been a confession before d-day and that's second to no A. Elusively out of reach, as long as we learn from experiences, better ways become obvious and very reachable.

Quote:
My IC said, "turn on your 'Find my iPhone' and show him how to use it so he can see where you are." And I would have had to show him how to use it.
No, absolutely not.
My IC said, "sit down next to him one night, show him what your posting and talk to him about it."
No, absolutely not.
My IC said, "give him all your passwords to everything."
OK, fine. FINE.
Who actually knows all their passwords? I made a token effort. Hell, if I had to list all of my passwords today, it would take hours to retrieve them.
My husband used the info he got to control me.

It sounds like your IC understood transparency measures to put in place in early recovery. It's not hard to see the resistance you put up against these measures with how you've written it out. From a BS viewpoint, your interest was more in protecting yourself than relieving your H of fear and ongoing secrecy. That's the purpose of transparency in early recovery, avoiding incidents that fuel more fear/anger/mistrust. I don't know if your H used the info to control you or if he used it to control a part of his life he'd realized was so out of control and in turn you viewed it as controlling you. When independent behaviour goes from 100% to zero (or feels like it) and honesty and transparency is supposed to go from zero to 100%, I get how those drastic 'supposed to happen' transitions can be insulting. From a BS viewpoint, resistance to those transitions scream 'unsafe and dangerous'.

Quote:
I don't think you meant "undermines" A's but what is it that I do that you perceive is inconsistent with supporting recovery and marriage?

I've thought about the impression I get from some things you write and undermine is the word I come up with. I could go through your posts over the past several years and find examples but what would that prove since I'm not so sure at times you realize what you're saying is undermining aspects of A's. You believe what you think, doesn't mean it's correct or respectful towards someone who spouse had an A. All I can do is ask that you consider not all BS's are like your H (or how I perceive your view of him). Consider asking yourself when you argue for WS's rights in R (aside from physical safety), is any of it at the expense of the BS? Does any of it justify the WS's thinking for having an A or is it solely theirs to own despite how crappy the M was?
Recovery (more so early R) has to be about the BS, it just does if the BS is going to want to continue on with R. Does a WS need to be made to feel like scum, no, I believe they do that quite well to themselves but the privileges they had before d-day, need drastic reeling in. As recovery progresses and healing happens, things change, mindsets of both spouses change for the better and a M of mutual respect unfolds. But, you gotta get through the lousy phases of early recovery, first.
Even if you can't imagine the pain and destruction a BS feels, consider having the appreciation for it.

Quote:
I think there is a corresponding boundary of not punishing your spouse for honesty.
And honestly, I don't thing we will ever get there because he gets SO MAD when I express anything that could be remotely labeled at critical.
SO MAD.
Perhaps I should have set a high bar, but I wasn't exactly in a position to do so, right?

I'm not sure what timeline you're talking about here, initially post d-day or the present, it seems like both. My little rant above about early R suggests that no, you weren't in a position to set any bar. Remember I also said as R progresses, this changes. While things may not have changed in your situation, a R where both spouses are on board, dynamics change, eventually. I agree with the boundary of not punishing your spouse for honesty. Post d-day and early R (let's say a year or so) we still had our fair share of rough moments where I'm sure my H could have felt punished for his honesty although he said nothing.

Quote:

I do believe that poor boundaries allow affairs.

Don't ever allow yourself to be in a position where an affair is an option and you won't have and affair, regardless of how incredibly miserable you are. You can be incredibly miserable for decades ( I KNOW) without having an affair.

Agree poor boundaries allow affairs to begin, it doesn't stop there, I don't think. When a mindset of deserving happiness for example, shifts from fixing issues in the M to seeking happiness from someone outside the M, an A becomes an option when the opportunity arises. People can't live in a gated life forever, there will always be opportunities. Heck, internet forums are opportunities for someone who rarely leaves home.

Quote:
I have a whole bunch of stuff from which to recover, and after about a billion hours of therapy I developed a highly sophisticated, color coded balloon system.

Sadly, I haven't seen a better approach.

I'm not sure tons of therapy would've helped me get anywhere more quickly. Basically, some junk I had to toss into the garbage. The past is the past, some of which I had control over and some not.
Recognizing my own role helped. While my H was in his A, I'd started working through how we got to such an unhappy state in our M. I went backwards with events one by one cuz I couldn't pin point when it started. I looked at things he'd done and then looked at the fact that with each crappy thing, I did have a choice with how I reacted. I couldn't beat myself up for choosing how I reacted (sometimes this choice was as simple as staying in the M) cuz that's all I was capable of at the time. By the time d-day came, I'd already started looking at my own junk and I was determined not to fall back into old habits.
From there it was recognizing how I coped and this was the hardest. It's that looking in the mirror and knowing what a jerk I could be even when I didn't want to. For as hard as my mirror looking was, accepting my part was like a weight lifted off. Doesn't make sense, does it. You'd think I'd feel better believing I had no responsibility for the state of our M. It wasn't that way for me with what I was processing. Maybe it had to with taking back control despite viewing myself in a negative light. Not sure.

Originally Posted By: LdG
Originally Posted By: Vitt
Is autonomy lost, sure, and it's heavier on the WS side for a period of time. That changes as the M is rebuilt. The question is whether or not the investment is worth the change in mindset and lifestyle and it goes for both spouses.


It was not my experience that it went for both spouses. I'm 100% clear that nothing in his life changed. He still travels for work every other week and had since 2006. He still hunts through the winter months at his lease. He still places a huge priority on skiing.

It has not been my experience that that changes as the marriage is rebuilt.

Where R and a better M is the goal for both spouses, the BS loses independence too. I did a lot of stuff on my own, a lot. Now all of a sudden, we're having to spend time with each other, I'm having to ask him about all sorts of stuff which before I just went ahead and did or made a decision about something on my own. It was a big adjustment for me.

Quote:
You know the only thing that has changed Vitt? The ONLY thing that changed? He stopped blowing up at me.

That is it. And it actually happened last March 9 at my father's 86th birthday party and if you missed the posts on that, since deleted, that SUCKED.

It won the "This sucks for 2013 Family Situation Award".

I'm kind of proud.

You have options, LdG.

Last edited by Lil; 03/14/14 07:39 AM. Reason: Edited at OP's request

26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #339428
03/13/14 01:31 PM
03/13/14 01:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
Squeaky Tree Offline
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Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
I wish you were around more Vitt, you have explained beautifully the way you feel about the poly and the benefit it was to your marriage.

J too has lost that freedom (or was it a constraint?) of doing our own think that we had before the A. We look to each other all the time now to amke sure we are not trampling on eahc other and so that we know the other cares about each others schedule.

Transparency has some real benefits and I am pleased for the difference in my M.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Squeaky Tree] #339432
03/13/14 01:52 PM
03/13/14 01:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Vittoria Offline
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You are such a sweetie, ST, thank you.
I feel like we've also found the balance between our/mine/H's time.

Transparency having benefits, you put that a good way.

xxx


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Squeaky Tree] #339437
03/13/14 02:08 PM
03/13/14 02:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Ace Offline
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Originally Posted By: Squeaky Tree
I wish you were around more Vitt, you have explained beautifully the way you feel about the poly and the benefit it was to your marriage.


I've missed you, too, V. Glad you're able to pop in now and then. Hope it can be more of "now" than "then" soon.

I appreciated your journey via the polygraph route. I am one of the few blessed ones who mentioned it to my H (after I learned about them on MB) and he quickly said "sign me up, anytime, any place and I'll do it."

That (and something else he said earlier) gave me the foundation I needed to begin rebuilding trust. The other thing he had done was on D-Day one when he admitted that he had made earlier attempts to cheat about which I would have never known. Also, we were seeing our tough MC at the time, (after the highly-trained and most expensive MC proved he knew nothing about overcoming infidelity).

I think it's the "thought of the poly" more than the actual test itself that could prove to be more telling and produce more truth. Like LdG says, the test is not reliable anyway.

Again, great to see you, V and thanks for your insights.

Ace

Last edited by Ace; 03/13/14 02:10 PM. Reason: To note that this was my 2801st post and I did not even notice 2800! My OCD (for x5's) is waning!!!

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Ace] #339627
03/14/14 12:32 AM
03/14/14 12:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
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Vittoria  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted By: Ace
I appreciated your journey via the polygraph route. I am one of the few blessed ones who mentioned it to my H (after I learned about them on MB) and he quickly said "sign me up, anytime, any place and I'll do it."

Oh Ace, yes, how blessed we were. What a time, huh.
The way your H was so willing, yes, says a mitt full about what you already knew from the info he gave.

Quote:
The other thing he had done was on D-Day one when he admitted that he had made earlier attempts to cheat about which I would have never known.

This makes a big difference too. If WS's would only realize it's so much better to come clean with all of it at one time. Kind of like smack me once hard rather than 100 mediocre smacks.

Always good to see you too! Thanks Ace.
xx


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #445528
05/20/21 07:31 AM
05/20/21 07:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,569
New Zealand
Bump


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


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