Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 1 guest and 18 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.How to deconstruct a marriage.0
2.I am Sick, I am Sad, and I am needing some support.0
3.SIHW is back and Dealing with issues....0
4.looking for some support0
5.Social Networking Sites and Infidelity0
6.Signs of Infidelity0
7.The Difference Between Cheating and Infidelity?0
8.Not really sure how to survive0
9.The Five Big Lies That Keep You From Changing0
10.Pregnant and getting put out of the house by my husband0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Does anyone remember this story?3
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Things men want3
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation9
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: wiser_now] #387828
06/30/15 04:03 PM
06/30/15 04:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,681
Carolina Blue Heaven
P
peppermint Offline
Member
peppermint  Offline
Member
P
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,681
Carolina Blue Heaven
POJA is a like a lovely fantasy. It sounds so good, and you might get a little taste of it working when it's a win-win situation (should we vacation in Hawaii or Bermuda). How often dies that even happen. In the times you need POJA the most it doesn't work.

Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: peppermint] #387848
06/30/15 06:04 PM
06/30/15 06:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,072
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
Board of Directors
Mark1952  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,072
SW Chicago 'burbs
The failure of POJA is because it isn't about agreement. It is about not doing anything without agreement.

The point is not to agree to do something one of you has no intention of doing, it is supposed to prevent you from doing things your spouse doesn't want to happen.

Most situations where it is considered a failure have to do with a power struggle with no possibility of resolution with either position prevailing. We both know that we are right. A or B, with no other possible outcome. But the majority of conflicts don't actually have only two possible outcomes. Where the failure happens is in deciding a winner and a loser without ever looking at the problem in any way other than the way it is first presented. We don't really negotiate with each other; we state our preferred outcomes and resist any discussion.

For POJA to even have a viable application, both spouses must implement it unilaterally. You can't hold each other hostage to a way of living life unless you both follow it.

In any conflict between spouses, any resolution that permits one to gain benefit at the expense of the other, diminishes the bond and connection between the two. POJA is not supposed to get you a win. It is supposed to keep you from hurting each other by doing whatever you want, even though you know your spouse will be hurt by your actions. It is supposed to keep you from destroying your relationship over snow tires, a bass boat, new shoes or what color to paint the bedroom.

Most of the time one of you doesn't even care one way or another about what the other might want to do but if you don't agree, POJA is designed to keep you from having your way and your relationship paying the price.

BTW, if you have ever countered with an opinion that is the opposite of what your spouse wanted, you have been the person who is getting the default results. If he or she does it anyway, or if you do, it is not that POJA failed but that one of you did not follow it.

See also: Gottman re: Stonewalling

You both have to be willing to negotiate and both must be willing to examine options outside of your beginning opposite views or you aren't actually following POJA. You might want agreement but only if you get your way and that ends any possible resolution other than where you began.

LG, you might have had POJA in mind, but he had no intention of negotiating a solution. You can declare yourself the loser or you can look for more compelling argument for your position.

In real negotiations, the first stated position is the place to start, not the end game.Honest and civil discussion, maybe multiple times, is how you reach agreement. Until then there is no agreement and that ain't POJA. POJA requires agreement. Not reaching one is a failure of negotiation and not of the policy though it might be a failure to apply the policy to the conflict at hand.


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Mark1952] #388426
07/07/15 02:07 PM
07/07/15 02:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
The failure of POJA is because it isn't about agreement. It is about not doing anything without agreement.

The point is not to agree to do something one of you has no intention of doing, it is supposed to prevent you from doing things your spouse doesn't want to happen.

Most situations where it is considered a failure have to do with a power struggle with no possibility of resolution with either position prevailing. We both know that we are right. A or B, with no other possible outcome. But the majority of conflicts don't actually have only two possible outcomes. Where the failure happens is in deciding a winner and a loser without ever looking at the problem in any way other than the way it is first presented. We don't really negotiate with each other; we state our preferred outcomes and resist any discussion.

For POJA to even have a viable application, both spouses must implement it unilaterally. You can't hold each other hostage to a way of living life unless you both follow it.

In any conflict between spouses, any resolution that permits one to gain benefit at the expense of the other, diminishes the bond and connection between the two. POJA is not supposed to get you a win. It is supposed to keep you from hurting each other by doing whatever you want, even though you know your spouse will be hurt by your actions. It is supposed to keep you from destroying your relationship over snow tires, a bass boat, new shoes or what color to paint the bedroom.

Most of the time one of you doesn't even care one way or another about what the other might want to do but if you don't agree, POJA is designed to keep you from having your way and your relationship paying the price.

BTW, if you have ever countered with an opinion that is the opposite of what your spouse wanted, you have been the person who is getting the default results. If he or she does it anyway, or if you do, it is not that POJA failed but that one of you did not follow it.

See also: Gottman re: Stonewalling

You both have to be willing to negotiate and both must be willing to examine options outside of your beginning opposite views or you aren't actually following POJA. You might want agreement but only if you get your way and that ends any possible resolution other than where you began.

LG, you might have had POJA in mind, but he had no intention of negotiating a solution. You can declare yourself the loser or you can look for more compelling argument for your position.

In real negotiations, the first stated position is the place to start, not the end game.Honest and civil discussion, maybe multiple times, is how you reach agreement. Until then there is no agreement and that ain't POJA. POJA requires agreement. Not reaching one is a failure of negotiation and not of the policy though it might be a failure to apply the policy to the conflict at hand.


This indicates the existence of a valid process, the failure being in the people engaging in the process.

Other posters have indicated a lack of faith in the process itself. I tend to agree with them.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Chrysalis] #388430
07/07/15 02:34 PM
07/07/15 02:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
S
SmilingWife Offline
Global Moderator
SmilingWife  Offline
Global Moderator
S
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
Originally Posted By: Chrysalis
POJA assumes good faith negotiation between two parties who decline to engage in power struggle. Which is why it is very difficult to make work. Because so often, somebody either isn't in good faith or can't let go of the power struggle.


Yes and that sums it up.

I have never been a fan of POJA......I am glad I can say that out loud now! smile

Last edited by SmilingWife; 07/07/15 02:35 PM.
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: SmilingWife] #388552
07/08/15 12:48 AM
07/08/15 12:48 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,680
B
Blair Offline
Member
Blair  Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,680
I have only witnessed POJA to support stonewalling or backing up another person's choice by the "do nothing" argument. It might work for some people, but I have never seen it happen.

Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Blair] #400005
11/30/15 02:47 PM
11/30/15 02:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,052
holdingontoit Offline
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,052
I am with Pep. POJA is a fabulous theory that rarely "works" with hot button issues.

It is like the "solution" I frequently propose for libido mismatches that is great in theory but I have never seen a couple actually implement: trade weeks. If a couple had the ability to "trade weeks", they wouldn't have such a severe problem dealing with their mismatch. If they can't resolve the mismatch, inevitably one wont be willing to trade weeks.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Blair] #400440
12/02/15 08:54 PM
12/02/15 08:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Originally Posted By: Blair
I have only witnessed POJA to support stonewalling or backing up another person's choice by the "do nothing" argument. It might work for some people, but I have never seen it happen.


I agree. It doesn't work unless both parties enter into the negotiation in good faith and are willing to abide by the agreed upon outcome. Which, if you have that, they are probably already doing some version of the POJA anyway.

More often than not, I've seen it used as a tool to control.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: AntigoneRisen] #401415
12/13/15 03:55 AM
12/13/15 03:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,806
NewEveryDay Offline
Advocate
NewEveryDay  Offline
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,806
AR, it's not just you today, just a consistent theme, that folks who come here to recover their marriages are too frequently just here learning how to accept the unacceptable, or as another poster phrases it learning to like the taste of shinola sandwiches. And here we are today in Magnifying Marriages thread. I would love it if we could promote tools here to make good marriages great. That's what I thought we were here to do. Tools like POJA get slammed here though again and again.

Quote:
It doesn't work unless both parties enter into the negotiation in good faith


So now mutual good will towards one's spouse is not something we can assume anymore? Have we sank to that level? Are things that awful?

Here? In a place where our common goal is to be where you can go and get support in making your marriage a great one?

I feel like the girl in this song Here.



So tell them I'll be here
Right next to the boy who's throwin' up
Cause he can't take what's in his cup no more


So why do we just commiserate, yes, what's in your cup is awful, I had that too, it was awful for me too.

Instead of asking "What are you going to do to replace it already?!"

I love this place so much and it makes me so sad that we can't do more to create lasting happiness for people who sound like they would like that.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: NewEveryDay] #401421
12/13/15 05:41 AM
12/13/15 05:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,680
B
Blair Offline
Member
Blair  Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,680
The main problem is that it takes two people willing to work on a solution to cultivate a relationship and help a solution actually happen. A lot of spouses aren't willing to make that kind of effort to negotiate and work together to find something that both partners find acceptable.

Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: wiser_now] #401439
12/13/15 04:06 PM
12/13/15 04:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
S
SmilingWife Offline
Global Moderator
SmilingWife  Offline
Global Moderator
S
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
Originally Posted By: wiser_now
I always loved the POJA... in theory. It works with my second husband but rarely did it work with my first husband (for the kinds of reasons LG mentioned.)

Like, when our children needed braces and their dad said no, he didn't get braces and they'll live without getting them, I just marched my kids to the orthodontist and got the darned things. No POJA, nor permission requested. Just did it. Felt good. LOL


Reminds me of my friend whose husband went from of my faith to rabid atheist after they has been married 4 years and had two kids. One day soon after his big announcement their two year old dd cut her own hair. My friend wanted to take her to the hair salon to straighten it up....and it would be a short cut bcause the child had taken a big chunk out. He didn't want her to. And then he pulled the 'I think God would want you to obey your husband'. She looks him dead in the eyes and said, "what God?"

Then she took her dd for a haircut.

They are divorcd now btw.

POJA.....I think it has a legalistic feel to it which I don't like. Dh and I do quite well with this concept....bcause overall we are in agreement with how to live our life.

But when it comes to things like not letting a spouse see their FOO, or telling a spouse to abandon their faith, or cut a toddler s hair, well at that point there is such conflict POJA is dead in the water. Basic respect needs to return for any hope.

Last edited by SmilingWife; 12/13/15 05:20 PM.
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: SmilingWife] #401441
12/13/15 04:23 PM
12/13/15 04:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,681
Carolina Blue Heaven
P
peppermint Offline
Member
peppermint  Offline
Member
P
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,681
Carolina Blue Heaven
It doesn't have to be preached as POJA either. Posters here are constantly discussing how to compromise and work through disagreements. We are always discussing finding something that both partners can live with.

And yes, that usually does mean settling for less than you both really want. The idea that you don't do it unless both partners are enthusiastic about it realistically means that very little, if anything, gets done.

Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: peppermint] #401443
12/13/15 05:23 PM
12/13/15 05:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
S
SmilingWife Offline
Global Moderator
SmilingWife  Offline
Global Moderator
S
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
Originally Posted By: peppermint
It doesn't have to be preached as POJA either. Posters here are constantly discussing how to compromise and work through disagreements. We are always discussing finding something that both partners can live with.

And yes, that usually does mean settling for less than you both really want. The idea that you don't do it unless both partners are enthusiastic about it realistically means that very little, if anything, gets done.


Exactly Pep. I dislike the word enthusiastic . And I dislike how compromise is seen as failure. Resentful compromise is a failure but agreeing to eat Chinese once in a while bcause your spouse loves it, doesn't need to be resentful or enthusiastic. Just life. Give a little, take a little. Work to make each other happy.

Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: NewEveryDay] #401937
12/17/15 11:18 PM
12/17/15 11:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Quote:
So now mutual good will towards one's spouse is not something we can assume anymore? Have we sank to that level? Are things that awful?


It's not something I've ever been able to assume. And most marriages that are in trouble do not have mutual goodwill. For those who have a power struggle dynamic in their marriages, the POJA is fraught with difficulties, and I wouldn't recommend it at all.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: AntigoneRisen] #402079
12/20/15 05:23 PM
12/20/15 05:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,806
NewEveryDay Offline
Advocate
NewEveryDay  Offline
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,806
I am so grateful that we got our guest speaker this week. I had felt like we had gone from problem-solving to settling for the muck. But now I have new hope.

All this stuff is SO solvable.

AR, I understand why you wouldn't recommend it when you don't see good will. I still would, like stop the gas leak. While addressing the lack of goodwill


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: NewEveryDay] #402090
12/20/15 11:30 PM
12/20/15 11:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
L
LivingWell Offline
Member
LivingWell  Offline
Member
L
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,222
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
I am so grateful that we got our guest speaker this week. I had felt like we had gone from problem-solving to settling for the muck. But now I have new hope.

I'm very grateful, too, NED. It gets tiring reading so many being advised to divorce before even knowing a whole lot about the situation. If someone was ready to divorce, I can't imagine them coming to a marriage advocacy site to get pwrmission feom a bunch of strangers. I'm hopeful that some of the knowledge and wisdom that our guest speaker contributed might also reach those who insult the spouses of some of our members and who seem to attempt to bully a member into joining them in their view, and reach them in a way that might help them identify things that could be hindering them in their own situations.

Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Vibrissa] #445537
05/20/21 09:10 AM
05/20/21 09:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Bump


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Vibrissa] #445619
05/23/21 06:20 PM
05/23/21 06:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Ace Online
Advocate
Ace  Online
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
I have never posted to this thread and I think I know why.

I can't always agree with the use of the word "enthusiastically" in the verbiage.

We tried this when we were at the MB Weekend. In theory, it sounds good.

Always agree or don't.

Don't what?

Don't agree?

Don't do it?

Yes, both.

But that means that the foot-dragger always wins, right? I've always been the cautious one. I've agreed with DH on some things reluctantly, often just to stretch away from being overly concerned about everything. But "enthusiastically???"

NOT.

Hey, anyone heard from "Not To Fun?" That just made me thing of her.
(Not only am I extra cautious but I'm also easily distracted. smile


Last edited by Ace; 05/23/21 06:23 PM. Reason: to change emoticons since some don't appear to be transfering

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Vibrissa] #445623
05/23/21 11:12 PM
05/23/21 11:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Shes getting married in the not to far future...

Flick and I could never get as far as enthusiastic, we are not that type of people. But we still POJA. It's more ' do I hates it? No. Does it worry me? No. Can I live with it it? Yes. I have no particular objection '


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Lil] #445629
05/24/21 04:57 AM
05/24/21 04:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Ace Online
Advocate
Ace  Online
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Originally Posted by Lil
Shes getting married in the not to far future...


Is Not Too Fun one of the 4 you've been in touch with over the years? Hope she joins us here.

Just curious, Lil....in my time zone (Pacific Daylight Time,) I show your last post on this thread as logging inn at 4:12 PM on Sunday, May 23, 2021.

What day and time would that have been when you posted it?


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Vibrissa] #445633
05/24/21 06:00 AM
05/24/21 06:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Its monday, not sure what time it was tho. Somewhere between 11am and 3 pm

Right now its monday night, and 6pm


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: Vibrissa] #445634
05/24/21 12:59 PM
05/24/21 12:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,010
star*fish Offline
Board of Directors
star*fish  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,010
The POJA done right makes a world of difference in a marriage. And "enthusiasm" is kind of a weird word to describe what the goal actually is. The key is to create a win-win situation. Win-win in this situation means that both of you get your needs met and neither of you caves. If one of the people is compromising, sacrificing, or agreeing to something that only makes their spouse happy---then it isn't a POJA. Foot-dragging, stonewalling, procrastination---all undermine the basic precept.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: The Policy of Joint Agreement [Re: star*fish] #445636
05/24/21 02:56 PM
05/24/21 02:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Ace Online
Advocate
Ace  Online
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Originally Posted by star*fish
If one of the people is compromising, sacrificing, or agreeing to something that only makes their spouse happy---then it isn't a POJA. Foot-dragging, stonewalling, procrastination---all undermine the basic precept.


Hi Star,

Thanks for your reply. Obviously we don't understand the POJA process.

I've put my details on my thread in the Carport.

Thanks,
Ace


We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Fiddler 

Newest Members
Love_Smacked, starfire, JoyfulMimi, bruers, shattered72
2048 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
Hearts Blessing4
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
63 Marriage Facts1
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Updates Divorce Stats4
no more rainbow members?9
BR - The Art of War - Sun Tzu5
Questions & Answers About Marriage---responses from 7-10 year old kids4
seeing new members on mobile version5
Return of the Goddess31
Community Information
2048Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8500Topics
463376Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.025s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 3.3446 MB (Peak: 3.6919 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2021-10-20 09:47:54 UTC