Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Blair), 2 guests, and 37 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.I declare myself MA's first official thread killer2
2.Am I still a doormat?2
3.Hearts Blessing1
4.Financial counselor says communication is key when mixing money and marriage - Grand Forks Herald0
5.Daughter says father made ominous threats if his wife sought a divorce - Portland Press Herald0
6.A Straight Spouse Of A Gay Husband Speaks Out0
7.Rise Above Past Relationship Failures - Psychology Today0
8.Toxic Relationship dynamics0
9.Ask Amy's very bad advice on affairs0
10.Women Who Don't Orgasm - Psychology Today0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Does anyone remember this story?3
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Things men want3
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation9
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! #19962
11/11/10 11:16 PM
11/11/10 11:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,883
Gateway to the West
N
Not2fun Offline OP
Member
Not2fun  Offline OP
Member
N
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,883
Gateway to the West
As NOT to thread jack elsewhere, let's discuss or learn POJA.....

Not

Ps....yes, I've only STARTED the thread as I'm running out the door.....if others don't beat me to it, I'll outline the basics later..... waves


" If you couldn't change your partner when you were together, you sure aren't going to now that you aren't together..." Words of the teacher of the court mandated parenting class...and the ONE thing that stuck out to me!!!
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: Not2fun] #19998
11/11/10 11:54 PM
11/11/10 11:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,090
soolee Offline
Member
soolee  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,090
Well..guess I'll put my .02 in.

POJA, or Policy of Joint Agreement as outlined on MB, is an agreement between spouses that says: Never do anything without enthusiastic agreement from your spouse (lest it create resentment, etc.) Negotiation is encouraged. If negotiation doesn't produce POJA, nothing is done.

It's discussed quite a bit in the LB book.

Is there a similar concept with DB? Just wondering.

If I remember right, Dr. H coaches the spouse who wants something to approach the other spouse with, "How would you feel about..." This tells the spouse that their opinion matters and spurs negotiation.



Me: 53
Him: 53
Together: 34 years
Married: 27 years

"Aspire to Inspire before you Expire" Author Unknown

Welcome to Marriage Advocates! Please click here to join the group: http://www.marriageadvocates.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/newuser
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: soolee] #20249
11/12/10 12:46 PM
11/12/10 12:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
Squeaky Tree Offline
Member
Squeaky Tree  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
I like to think about POJA all the time and I have got to a point where I feel guilty if I don't use it (even with the thing that about meals that OH mentioned in the other thread)....

the thing is with POJA that once you do practice it lots, you kind of don't need to use it, although you still do.... Having had the meal issue before, we might now agree that "i'll get that for tea, unless there is a special offer on, or, we will always have whatever is on offer"

Once you and your partner know you are looking to each other for their opinion on things you both begin to share more and POJA just happens rather than having to be really worked at, it just becomes habit....

Toook me a long time and I think I do get it.... there are still things that we are still working on: whether or not we see if Christianity is something ofr our family; but that is major, major stuff and can't be POJA'd overnight but we both respect each others opinions because we now share so so so many other trivial and slightly larger decisions....



Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: Squeaky Tree] #20254
11/12/10 01:05 PM
11/12/10 01:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,804
NewEveryDay Online
Advocate
NewEveryDay  Online
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,804
Quote:
If I go to the grocery store to buy items for a POJA'd dinner menu (we don't POJA the dinner menu, BTW, but perhaps many couples do) and I find flank steak on sale way cheaper than the tip roast and change the menu on the fly, is this going to violate the POJA? Lovebust my spouse?


I think POJA and RH go hand-in-hand. You get the steak, it's not at your souse's expense. You get home, and if bargain-hunting is big for you, then you share your happy find. Otherwise, you guys may not remember until it's on the table. Usually someone say, "This is great!" Confirmation that it wasn't at anyone's expense.


"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: NewEveryDay] #20743
11/12/10 11:00 PM
11/12/10 11:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 655
USA
Chris Offline
Member
Chris  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 655
USA
Yep...POJA...the good ole' POJA LOL!

Learning that was ROUGH...but after awhile it became second nature.



ChrisInNOVA2@yahoo.com
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: Not2fun] #20758
11/12/10 11:21 PM
11/12/10 11:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
AntigoneRisen Offline
Board of Directors
AntigoneRisen  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,611
The Dark Side of the Moon
Quote:
As NOT to thread jack elsewhere, let's discuss or learn POJA.....


I like the concept. The problem, although not the fault of anyone, nor a flaw in the design, is that it - like everything else - can be misused to control.

In my marriage, I worked my butt off with the POJA. I adhered to the results. He didn't, and didn't submit what he wanted to do to the POJA process at all. The result: anything I wanted to do was modified to be acceptable to him, and he did anything he wanted to whether or not it was acceptable to me.



Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: AntigoneRisen] #21009
11/13/10 03:20 PM
11/13/10 03:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
wiser_now Offline
Member
wiser_now  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
I LOVE the POJA - even when I had a H who refused to even entertain the idea of it, let alone follow it.

Here's why: It just makes sense to me.

I'd like to bring up one key time when I think it shines: When you can't agree. What that means is ~~ if it's doubtful, don't do it.

So, when you're looking at a big decision in particular - if you both can't enthusiastically agree - don't do it.

Not to say there haven't been slips along the way in my marriage, where we do use it. My H once applied for a loan without talking to me about it first, and you can bet he heard about that! That was not the fault of the POJA, though. Just human error.

I can see what AR is saying, too. My ex used it to control by not agreeing - therefore stopping the process. See, says he, we can't agree so now you can't do it, can you? (He might was well have added: Nah, nah, nah with his fingers in his ears and his tongue sticking out)...


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: wiser_now] #23217
11/17/10 06:48 PM
11/17/10 06:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,565
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,565
New Zealand
Ah POJA, a stumbling block in early recovery, a blessing for us now smile

We had the normal discussions about it to start "Can't I even buy a pie at the dairy without your permission?!?" What if this, what if that....

The supermarket exercise was really good for us. Helped raise points like what if DH wants product x and I dont actually care either way, is that poja?

Once we got the hang of it, we POJA'd some stuff in advance... taking the supermarket idea of meat on special, yes buy it, save money today. DD14 falls over in town and rips her shorts - yes buy some new ones immediately! DH forgot his lunch - yes, go buy a pie smile

Small purchases under $100, yes, up to personal digression. Thats one purchase under $100 a day thanks, not 5 smile

Bigger objects - yeah still an issue for us. I have a hideous green bathroom that will be staying a hideous green bathroom for some time because we have yet to of come to a POJA on it. Status quo might be ugly, but at least we're not fighting about it.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: Lil] #23304
11/17/10 07:49 PM
11/17/10 07:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 260
serendipitous Offline
Member
serendipitous  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 260
We've not yet had a real problem with POJA but we've always tended to agree on a lot of things anyway.

I thought my H's IB would hinder us doing POJA but since he's stopped all that, it sort of happens naturally and we don't even realise we're doing it now.

I think, IMVHO, that IB has to go and you have to be working as a team for POJA to work properly.


The sun never says to the earth "you owe me"
Look what happens with a love like that.
It lights up the whole sky.
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: serendipitous] #23568
11/18/10 12:39 AM
11/18/10 12:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 915
K
kilted_thrower Offline
Member
kilted_thrower  Offline
Member
K
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 915
I like POJA. My wife and I have been using it for awhile before we knew it was termed "POJA". We used the "Hey...is it cool if I/do you mind if we/how do you feel about" wording to most of the stuff we do.


Some people are just wired for success. I had no choice when it came to being great. I just am great. --K. Powers

Somebody may beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it. --Prefontaine



Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: Not2fun] #445675
05/27/21 02:42 AM
05/27/21 02:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,565
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,565
New Zealand
Bump


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: Lil] #445677
05/28/21 11:49 PM
05/28/21 11:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,219
Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline
Board of Directors
Fiddler  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,219
Monterey, CA
Like many of the things on MB, it's a concept that does have some good elements, but has pitfalls, especially when implemented as expressed
Quote
Never do anything without enthusiastic agreement from your spouse (lest it create resentment, etc.) Negotiation is encouraged. If negotiation doesn't produce POJA, nothing is done.

Taken to this extreme, from my perspective it is an unhealthy enmeshment.

Now, I do agree that in any conflict negotiation is crucial. It is also important to have an outcome that does not represent a compromise of either partner's needs. In practice, however, it seems to be mostly applied to particular positions rather than needs. There are almost always many different alternatives that address the needs, while typically only one that addresses a particular position. By focusing the negotiation on needs rather that positions, it is far more likely to arrive at a mutually satisfactory outcome - i.e. one that addresses the needs of both without compromise. And if one's need in the area in question is 100% addressed, there is no reason not to be "enthusiastic."

It seems not uncommon that one spouse is not on board with it. To that, there is an empowering approach I espouse called an Impact Statement. But that is another topic altogether.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: PR: The INs and OUTs of POJA!!!!! [Re: Not2fun] #445679
05/29/21 06:00 AM
05/29/21 06:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,072
SW Chicago 'burbs
Mark1952 Offline
Board of Directors
Mark1952  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,072
SW Chicago 'burbs
POJA isn't really a negotiating tool and can't resolve conflicts. It's intended to be a a way to avoid taking actions that lead to resentment and is meant to prevent one sided compromise. You get what you want and I get what I don't want, even if I get to be selfish at a later date.

Couples tend to seek compromise by trading something one wants in exchange for the other getting something in return. The problem is that it seldom actually works that way in real life. What actually happens is that one ends up being hurt while the other "wins." Even if the reverse takes place later, the score might be even but both have been hurt or have sacrificed something and resentment is the typical result.

When both are working from the same dynamic, not wanting to win at the other's expense and so damaging the relationship, then POJA can be applied to find a win-win answer to the question at hand. If either would rather win than avoid hurting the other, then POJA has zero chance of success.

What it can do is really little more than reminding both to avoid Independent Behavior. IB isn't doing things by yourself or on your own and it isn't simply failing to check in with each other before doing everything. It is rather doing things as if it doesn't affect your spouse or more often, as if your spouse doesn't matter. If POJA is too restrictive it's likely the relationship is already in trouble. If one is controlling or must win at the expense of the other, there are probably other things that are broken.

It helps to remember the context in which POJA was developed, that is, affair proofing the marriage. In that context it is supposed to prevent either spouse from doing things in secret that make an affair more likely (secretive double life sort of things.) It isn't designed to negotiate what car to buy but if you buy a car on your own and your spouse hates the car, you probably need to look at why you thought that was a good idea in the first place.

Compromise isn't a bad thing if both get something, which is the heart of seeking win-win. If both spouses are only seeking self gratification, it's because the relationship is already damaged (or never really built up.)

Again, context matters in Harley's model. His premise is that when we feel connected and satisfied with the state of the marriage, we negotiate in good faith and want our spouse to be happy. If we are dissatisfied but still connected, we are unwilling to give in because we only want our own satisfaction. The worst case is no longer feeling connected because then the second you feel connected, you want more to be satisfied. Harley's terms are Intimacy(connected and satisfied), Conflict (connected by dissatisfied) and withdrawal (Disconnected) POJA really only works in Intimacy when you feel connected and want to make your spouse happy. It's a way to stay that way instead of a path to getting there.


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman

Moderated by  Fiddler 

Newest Members
Love_Smacked, starfire, JoyfulMimi, bruers, shattered72
2048 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
Hearts Blessing2
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
63 Marriage Facts1
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Updates Divorce Stats4
no more rainbow members?9
BR - The Art of War - Sun Tzu5
Questions & Answers About Marriage---responses from 7-10 year old kids4
seeing new members on mobile version5
Return of the Goddess31
Community Information
2048Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8500Topics
463368Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.020s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 3.2320 MB (Peak: 3.4653 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2021-09-17 09:25:44 UTC