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Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #54007
01/19/11 02:50 AM
01/19/11 02:50 AM
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The Dark Side of the Moon
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Quote:
STBXH may have learned the skills of bullying or of acting like an alpha-male long ago, but he continued these behaviors because they worked for him when you were around.


This is what I've learned about myself. This is what I mean by the word "enabling". Without strict boundaries about enabling bullying behavior, I fed the cycle.


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #54114
01/19/11 06:44 AM
01/19/11 06:44 AM
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flowmom Offline
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
STBXH may have learned the skills of bullying or of acting like an alpha-male long ago, but he continued these behaviors because they worked for him when you were around.


This is what I've learned about myself. This is what I mean by the word "enabling". Without strict boundaries about enabling bullying behavior, I fed the cycle.
Yes, I am really mulling this over. I am doing babysteps with boundaries at this point.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Larry] #54227
01/19/11 04:30 PM
01/19/11 04:30 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Larry
Oh, I get it. It is breaking the habits of a very loooooong life that is the problem. Stop, look, listen helps. Unfortunately much of my IRL conversation is with women. A pause for thought is considered to be an opportunity for them to fill the void. Of course they all think I am a great conversationalist. grin


Oh, I decided to take the last 3 sentences as humor. At first I thought they were all samples of your MasterTalk. Good stuff.

I've found that different training as well as a lifelong habit can make learning this stuff more difficult. For example, ex-marines (particularly drill instructors) really really seem to take a long time.

The best process I think is a partner who lives with you and is empowered by you and of course themselves to regularly trigger your awareness. Give 'em a $1 every time they do. Useful rewarded phrases, "MasterTalk again, shithead!" "You and what army thinks that?" "Oh, I didn't see you bring your throne with you." "I gather you think God needs you to stand-in for Him!" "What are you God, again!" Since I think you, Larry, tend to joke about gender roles, "Are you really trying to ruin the reputation of all men?" "Easy, big boy, you're just speaking for yourself." "Let's see, you have the hairbrained idea that someone agrees with you!"

I've heard all of these and many more. For me the gentle, "Let's see if I got that right, you think that ....." works the best.

Going back to your posting, "Let's see if I got that right, you think that if you pause that all women will fill the void with chatter. Did I get that? Oh and you actually have the idea that some woman somewhere thinks of you as a brilliant conversationalist. Right?" This is fun.

Bless you, Larry.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AntigoneRisen] #54229
01/19/11 04:35 PM
01/19/11 04:35 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
This is what I mean by the word "enabling". Without strict boundaries about enabling bullying behavior, I feed the cycle.


Good learning.

Oh and I am not too comfortable with the word "enable." I tend to wonder who is enabling the enabler. Where does that start?

My general belief is that is has to stop, and luckily it can be stopped by either party.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #54262
01/19/11 05:18 PM
01/19/11 05:18 PM
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Dear Al:

Busted!

Quote:
Since I think you, Larry, tend to joke about gender roles,


It is fun and yet in my mind, serves a bit of useful purpose. Before I got into the more serious business of what we are doing here and elsewhere, I used to use humor to make a point. In fact, I stressed humor as a point by itself.

To either gender; "You're taking yourself so serious, you really need to find companionship with someone who has a sense of humor." I find myself poking fun at gender stereotypes as a way of not taking myself so seriously as much as anything else.

My own self styled way of doing business is to be "The voice of reason," which means that both sides of a controversial issue find me equally distasteful. grin

Larry


It's often the truth we hide from ourselves that causes the most damage in life.

My old email address no longer works.
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #54280
01/19/11 05:39 PM
01/19/11 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: Larry
Oh, I get it. It is breaking the habits of a very loooooong life that is the problem. Stop, look, listen helps. Unfortunately much of my IRL conversation is with women. A pause for thought is considered to be an opportunity for them to fill the void. Of course they all think I am a great conversationalist. grin


Oh, I decided to take the last 3 sentences as humor. At first I thought they were all samples of your MasterTalk. Good stuff.

I've found that different training as well as a lifelong habit can make learning this stuff more difficult. For example, ex-marines (particularly drill instructors) really really seem to take a long time.

The best process I think is a partner who lives with you and is empowered by you and of course themselves to regularly trigger your awareness. Give 'em a $1 every time they do. Useful rewarded phrases, "MasterTalk again, shithead!" "You and what army thinks that?" "Oh, I didn't see you bring your throne with you." "I gather you think God needs you to stand-in for Him!" "What are you God, again!" Since I think you, Larry, tend to joke about gender roles, "Are you really trying to ruin the reputation of all men?" "Easy, big boy, you're just speaking for yourself." "Let's see, you have the hairbrained idea that someone agrees with you!"

I've heard all of these and many more. For me the gentle, "Let's see if I got that right, you think that ....." works the best.

Going back to your posting, "Let's see if I got that right, you think that if you pause that all women will fill the void with chatter. Did I get that? Oh and you actually have the idea that some woman somewhere thinks of you as a brilliant conversationalist. Right?" This is fun.

Bless you, Larry.


if I tried ANY of the above with My H it would dissolve into anger and a very very bad fight. Easier to just walk away when he acts like a jerk. Safer too.

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #54354
01/19/11 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Going back to your posting, "Let's see if I got that right, you think that if you pause that all women will fill the void with chatter. Did I get that? Oh and you actually have the idea that some woman somewhere thinks of you as a brilliant conversationalist. Right?" This is fun.
LOL. I really like this way of boundary-setting around gender-related Mastertalk.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Larry] #54360
01/19/11 07:27 PM
01/19/11 07:27 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Larry
My own self styled way of doing business

I forgot to mention that another group of people who seem to have trouble with MasterTalk and also with dropping the position of Master are ex-managers in business.

If I approached my wife as she were a business situation, she might consider 2nd Amendment Remedies. Nope, not a good idee!

Originally Posted By: Larry
is to be "The voice of reason," which means that both sides of a controversial issue find me equally distasteful. grin

Yeah, I tried that. Have you studied that courtroom situation where the judge is often the most hated person in the court? No one is happy.

Good luck.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy] #54363
01/19/11 07:31 PM
01/19/11 07:31 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: SisteReed
If I tried ANY of the above with My H it would dissolve into anger and a very very bad fight. Easier to just walk away when he acts like a jerk. Safer too.

Yep them choices are tough. Seems to me that if you go for "easier or safer," then you are going for "enabling." What to do?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #55309
01/21/11 03:38 AM
01/21/11 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: Edmond Dantes
Originally Posted By: flowmom
Still, STBXH didn't actually have good boundary skills and I think that's partly why he relied on bullying and punishing with me. I believe he could have found more connecting ways of keeping himself safe and soothing his lizard.


I recognize a lot of myself in this comment. I'd be interested in any thoughts anyone had about how to enhance personal boundary skills so I wasn't so inclined to get defensive and then get righteous.
Forgot to reply to this. Al has two great boundary articles on his site...one for individuals and one for couples. I am working on boundary skills too. I will need a lot of practice and it frustrates me when I can't do it "elegantly".


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #55312
01/21/11 03:40 AM
01/21/11 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: SisteReed
If I tried ANY of the above with My H it would dissolve into anger and a very very bad fight. Easier to just walk away when he acts like a jerk. Safer too.

Yep them choices are tough. Seems to me that if you go for "easier or safer," then you are going for "enabling." What to do?
Al, is this an example of you adopting a "friend" posture to someone who is communicating from a "slave" posture? SisteReed, I hope you don't mind my asking...


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #55376
01/21/11 05:41 AM
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A situation that I've experienced quite a bit is someone using MasterTalk in discussing something they're upset about, and wanting Validation from me. It often devolves into me setting a boundary about the MasterTalk ("there's another way to look at it", "I can see the other person's POV, etc.) but the person is left not feeling heard or understood or in STBXH's case, I think he felt actively undermined. He hated that I tended to play the "devil's advocate", but I didn't do it to invalidate him.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: flowmom] #55381
01/21/11 06:03 AM
01/21/11 06:03 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
Al, is this an example of you adopting a "friend" posture to someone who is communicating from a "slave" posture?


Sure good questions. I think I start off in Friend/Friend. I'm not sure whether I was responding to the sound of Slave or the sound of Passive/Master. One or t'other.

I do think it is tough to decide to go for "enabling" or for "safety and easy." That's often the choice.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: flowmom] #55383
01/21/11 06:09 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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I am used to most people using validation to mean some kind of approval, or agreement, or blessing. I define it as a much more tight action that has the effect of making people feel understood. And when people feel understood, they often feel approved of or blessed.

I think understanding of necessity gets rid of the need for agreement. Undermined. I think I would like to understand what that "guy" means by feeling undermined. And Validate it.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #55385
01/21/11 06:15 AM
01/21/11 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I am used to most people using validation to mean some kind of approval, or agreement, or blessing. I define it as a much more tight action that has the effect of making people feel understood. And when people feel understood, they often feel approved of or blessed.

I think understanding of necessity gets rid of the need for agreement. Undermined. I think I would like to understand what that "guy" means by feeling undermined. And Validate it.
Thanks that helps.

By the way, I know that you're not fond of acronyms like STBXH. But I have to call him something right? Just as you refer to Sandra as your "wife" at times (meaning she plays that role in your life), so does "that guy" play a role in my life...unfortunately that role doesn't have an easy term. Socially I would just refer to him by his first name but I don't here to protect his anonymity.


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: flowmom] #55392
01/21/11 06:34 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Actually I don't mind STBHX. Its the labels that seem to shame or diminish "the other" that I find unfortunate.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #55942
01/22/11 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Actually I don't mind STBHX. Its the labels that seem to shame or diminish "the other" that I find unfortunate.


I agree. I don't really like dehumanizing terms. I must admit that I'm guilty of it in two circumstances (two people).


Critical Thinking: The Other National Deficit

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: flowmom] #55945
01/22/11 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: flowmom
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: SisteReed
If I tried ANY of the above with My H it would dissolve into anger and a very very bad fight. Easier to just walk away when he acts like a jerk. Safer too.

Yep them choices are tough. Seems to me that if you go for "easier or safer," then you are going for "enabling." What to do?
Al, is this an example of you adopting a "friend" posture to someone who is communicating from a "slave" posture? SisteReed, I hope you don't mind my asking...

Dont mind - i think i choose to enable over the other because my lizzie has learned the other is VERY DANGEROUS to her. safer to tuck tail and hid. Last time she stood her ground she got choked out until she lost consciousness.

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Amadahy] #66306
02/07/11 03:33 PM
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I just reread Validation - the Skill and the Art. If I'm understanding this correctly, then some people tend to allow other people's view of them to replace their own view of themselves. That this is a symptom of codependency, and that the person can start to feel they've lost themselves, that the other is trying to stick them in a box that doesn't fit. And that either the cause or effect of this is that you don't like yourself, because you aren't allowing yourself to be...you are being someone else's view of you. Your worth is dependent on what someone else thinks of you. Self-esteem comes from knowing who you are, not who other people think you are.

My self-esteem was really low five years ago - I had lost myself in my STBXH and allowed myself to believe his model of me. In the last two-three years I've made a real effort to validate myself, to learn who I am and what my values are and act on those instead of others' expectations of me, and my self-esteem has returned to a healthy level. By doing that, I think I broke the rules of the enmeshment between me and STBXH. I wouldn't allow him to define me anymore, yet he was still allowing me to define him.

I wonder if he felt a strong loss of control and power...because he didn't know how to define himself on his own, and he had no say in defining me and how I looked at him anymore. In the year before he left he became very critical of me, deliberately putting me down, etc....actions that in the past lowered my self-esteem and thus gave him more control over me, over my viewpoint of me. But this time I refused to let his view of me affect me. I called him on his poor behavior, but at the same time I was overly critical of him in other ways.... He couldn't regain his power and may have felt like he was losing even more of himself, because now my viewpoint of him was more negative than before (or else I wouldn't have been critical). He told me not long after he left that he didn't like the man he was becoming, and I wonder if it was really that he disliked the man he saw reflected.

If I'm understanding our dynamics now, then what I should have done in the past was validate him rather than get defensive. I should have validated his perceptions of me - "You experienced me doing this as a message that ....")

I've been pretty focused on displaying my changes to him, but I'm thinking that this might be another form of pushing/control to him, that instead I should focus on validating any and every personal tidbit I get from him.


Current spouse: Night. D10, D9, S7

About me

You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

http://www.divorcedmomfinances.com
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: CajunRose] #66354
02/07/11 05:48 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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I think you got it! These factors (Boundaries surrounding your SELF, while not attacking the other's SELF, both seeing each other really - Validation and setting the pace) all interact all the time.

I think this is hard to teach cuz you have to learn it all, but can only focus on one learning issue at a time. Thank God, there is only so much to learn.

Oh, I watch little kids saying, "I don't like that." and parents saying "Yes you do!" all the time. And now I see this as a kind of subtle child abuse - telling, bullying, the kid to give up their own selves (their own reality) and adopting what the parent/caretaker tells them is reality. Terrible stuff.

Then as a person starts to defend their boundaries they often get so strong that their partner's boundaries collapse. My defending myself often becomes your experience of me attacking you. I sense I am lost whenever my partner loses her boundaries. Tis working through the familiar Master/Slave way of relating and seeking Friend/Friend.

Congratulations for digging into this, CajunRose.

Oh, and remember to forgive yourself, validate your self, when you run into memories of doing "awful" things - things that seemed right at the time.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #73701
02/24/11 12:47 AM
02/24/11 12:47 AM
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Al, your iceberg model reminds me very much of the Johari window model. Is there a history behind that? I think the perceptions of reality being touched upon in this discussion are very apt.

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #73836
02/24/11 06:52 AM
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Regarding defensiveness, I love what Byron Katie says:

"Defence is the first act of war."


we: me44 + my husband Pookie :9: + S9 + D6
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: GingerSnap] #74321
02/25/11 05:29 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: GingerSnap
Al, your iceberg model reminds me very much of the Johari window model. Is there a history behind that? I think the perceptions of reality being touched upon in this discussion are very apt.


You will probably find more than enough about my history of these thoughts in my paper on Boundaries for Individuals and in my paper on Validation: The Skill and Art. The part in the Boundaries paper is that about Thinking Boundaries.

Actually I was not introduced to the Johari Window material during my studies. Heard about it later. Seems to me it is often used for lots of differing things that lend themselves to two dimensions. The Icebergs came from my thinking about double-multi-dimensional active mental models operating simultaneously. Damn, that is a mouthful. And the Icebergs are a fun teaching model.

If you feel inclined to dig into that topic check out the chapter on Mental Models in The Art of Awareness by J. S. Bois


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #74463
02/25/11 06:59 PM
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This is quite a lot of material! I so appreciate the depth of thought, the amount of work in putting together difficult concepts, and especially the attitude with which it is presented. Thank you!

There's certainly a lot to process here an a lot of terms with which I am unfamiliar. However, so far every term and concept has resonated very closely with what my understanding is, so perhaps it is a matter of translating one set of terms into another. Not having read everything, I hope it is okay to nevertheless share some observations.

I very much appreciate the concept of "Prevalidation" and believe that it is the precursor to all else, and probably the most important. For me, it is simply an attitude of acceptance of both myself and the other person, even (especially!) in the face of a disagreement or of seeing things differently. I believe that everything else flows from this fundamental principle. Or perhaps more accurately, attitude. I find it to be remarkably liberating and empowering, which is ironic to me because my previous patterns (one of which was to make myself right and the other person wrong) were precisely to try to keep myself in a position of power. It was of course a false sense of power.

I'm not sure if this is gone into, but for me getting in touch with ineffective strategies involved learning the childhood patterns from which they arose as survival mechanisms. The more I can care for my own inner child, the more I am able to stay in my own heart and maintain the attitude of acceptance of both myself and the other person. In other words, my experience has been that it starts with accepting myself - and recognizing that I can only accept the other person to the extent that I accept myself.

When it comes to the particulars of validation in actual conversations, there have been a number of patterns that are more and less effective.

One is to always use the pronoun "you" when validating, never "I."

The second is to never ask a question as a question. If something is said that is unclear or that I do wish more understanding of, it is much more effective to phrase it as a statement (again keeping the "I" out).


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #74729
02/26/11 04:57 AM
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Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Good for you. It took me many years of being baffled about this topic to figure out a solution that was simple and practical.

PreValidation emerged from many discussions I had with a great (and deceased) psychologist from New York City. We were pondering the mental set we used when a new client was in the waiting room and we were prepping for their walking thru the door. Turned out that we both created a mind set that whatever trouble they were into, it made sense for them to be in that trouble and they were coming into our room first of all to tell us their story. Sure they wanted help with getting out of their trouble spot, but first they wanted someone to listen and understand them. Thus we were both preparing to hear a fascinating and original story from a soul that was living through that story and who wanted our help. The phrase we came up with was, "We know they make sense, and they are about to tell us all about it."

Years later with Sandra I became aware of this same phenomenon. Whatever action she had done, it made sense for her to do it. I could firmly take that position and look forward to her telling me about her sense - whenever she got around to telling me about it.

What my friend and I had done I believe was to get rid of judgemental thinking from our mind set. We replaced it with curiosity and appreciation. Our clients did not have to prove to us that they made sense. We had already accepted that. All they had to do was share their sense. And our mind set, expressed in our behavior, seemed to make it easy and safe for our clients to rapidly develop a level of candour that became very useful and I believe profoundly therapeutic.

I think the need to feel understood and to get clues that the person in front of you wants to understand you is probably universal. How often do people say, "Do I make sense?" or "Does that sound sensible?" or "You know?" All this seems to me a deep need to being affirmed in their current state of thinking. Oh, people want to change and improve. I think that is built into the Lizard functions and so is very deep. But I think the learn best when their past actions are understood as making sense - especially by themselves. I think it is awesome to be able to say, "I always did what I thought was best, at any moment."


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
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