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Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #99118
04/27/11 07:37 PM
04/27/11 07:37 PM
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Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: 2long
Were Job's trials and tribulations not a Godsend?
I treasure the story of Job. My background as Christian led me to many studies of the Bible, many translations, many interpretations. Old Testament stuff wanders into all the Muslim, Judeo, Christain backgrounds, I guess. I have a lot of friends in all of them. By the way, I believe the story translates well into Hindu, Buddhist, Confucian understandings pretty well. Others, too. And I love Job.

Originally Posted By: 2long
I would definitely classify the experience as a Godsend, looking back on it and considering all the things I've learned from it. Yes, the old marriage ended. Thank goodness! It was a fairy-tale fantasy that needed replacement. It's sad that it 2k infidelity 2 be the impetus, but it did.
I sure hear and celebrate your story. Thanks for sharing it.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #99129
04/27/11 08:06 PM
04/27/11 08:06 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm reminded of a conversation I had a couple of times where the most honest apology I could muster was "I am sorry. I should have divorced you first", to which he replied, "no, you should have told me how unhappy you were," which of course I had, but not in a way that he heard me I guess.
I think it might be wonderful for all those who have learned, who have gone through the experience of adultery/divorce/splitting up to get their ideas together and share it with those who are on the way.

"Ok you wish I'd told you. In what way could I have spoken to you that you would have heard/listened to?"

"Ok, you were scared to tell me. Here's what you could have done to let me know how scared you were!"

"Ok, you kept your truth hidden from me. And I wasn't listening much. Well, duh. Now here's what I now think we could have done to break up this tragedy."

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The choices were what they were: (1) divorce, (2) affair, (3) continue as we were. I think I should have done (1), he thinks I should have done (3), and it may turn out that (2) was the only hope for the marriage.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Well, I think you did your best.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
There. I said it. Go ahead and stone me.
I thought stoning was illegal. Call the cops!

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
It just seems disingenuous to me for those affaired against spouses who seek or sought reconciliation to turn around and say "you should have divorced rather than have an affair" -- if divorce was an acceptable outcome to that person, presumably they would have divorced rather than try to recover the marriage.
Yep. Affaired-against people are confused too. Doofus. And then people support their doofusicity! Silly.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I've always wondered what they would say to a poster who showed up in my predicament BEFORE the affair: "Hi, I'm miserable, can't get my husbands attention or get him to counseling, but he REALLY doesn't want a divorce so I'm thinking of having an affair to blow up an intolerable situation-- should I file for a divorce he REALLY doesn't want or have an affair because continuing as we are is simply out of the question?"
Great question. I think MA could have an outreach to those newbies who are before the affair level or divorce level either on the stay-at-home side or the thinking-of-escape side. Hmm.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I suppose one response might be to tell him I was about to have an affair, but that didn't occur to me -- if you punish honesty, you are likely to get less of it and I don't think the person doing the punishing has standing to complain about what they then don't know.
Yeah. Punishing honesty! That's gonna work?!

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
For what it's worth, shifting my thinking from "I'm the bad/evil one and he is the good/virtuous one" to this model has shifted the way I think about myself and him, and started me on a path to thinking about considering maybe possibly someday relating to him in a healthier, more hones fashion.
Heck, I believe the Buddhists are specialists at this shift of thinking. Lots of Christians/Jews/and Muslims groups seem to have trouble.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
So thank you Al -- your stuff has made an enormous, positive difference in how this person lives in real life, outside the theoretical forums models of how things are suppose to work where self-loathing is covertly if not overtly encouraged by the word choices of those who dominate the message. Come to think of it, it probably isn't healthy for me to hang out somewhere where triggery words like "evil" and "infidel" are impossible to avoid. I wonder why that just now occurred to me.


You are welcome to anything I have learned. I think one of the jobs of older farts like me is to gather our wisdom, the stuff we've learned from making those painful mistakes, and share it.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #99152
04/27/11 08:40 PM
04/27/11 08:40 PM
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2long Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: 2long
Were Job's trials and tribulations not a Godsend?

-ol' 2long


2long is citing Job? The Whiteboard truly is a magical place....


Hey, I grew up as a Christian Scientist! And though I considered myself an atheist for many years, I prefer the term I made up a 2ple years ago - atheologist. Because I'm spiri2al, but I don't *do* religion.

smile

-ol' 2long

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #99171
04/27/11 09:11 PM
04/27/11 09:11 PM
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2long Offline
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I can resonate with so many of the things you said here, LG, and that's from 'the other side' of the Big Event:

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm reminded of a conversation I had a couple of times where the most honest apology I could muster was "I am sorry. I should have divorced you first", to which he replied, "no, you should have told me how unhappy you were," which of course I had, but not in a way that he heard me I guess.


My wife and I had the exact same conversation! Word for word, I kid you not. And it really did take me years 2 realize she was being honest with me about trying 2 tell me how unhappy she was. Of course, at the time, all I could think of as a response was "but you weren't honest, because you didn't tell me that you were ac2ally having an affair, only that you considered it." Didn't help the si2ation at all, not surprisingly.

Quote:
The choices were what they were: (1) divorce, (2) affair, (3) continue as we were. I think I should have done (1), he thinks I should have done (3), and it may turn out that (2) was the only hope for the marriage.


Again, I can agree now, with these choices (very similar 2 what my wife said), and the fact that, of those choices, 2 probably was the most effective, if not the most efficient. And so, if those choices are the only ones that she and you could conceive of at that particular time in your lives, that's what they are. Doesn't mean that now you can't find better choices. Same on my side of the coin. I could have responded rather than reacted (though I thought I was being very thoughtful, if mostly logical, with my reactions at the time). And, faced with a similar si2ation again, I know I'd respond in a healthier manner. ...of course, all the while, we've both grown older and wiser, so contemplating what we'd do if there's another affair is unproductive dwelling on ancient scenarios and giving them power over us that they don't warrant.

Reminding me of how I like 2 paraphrase something I got from Ekhart Tolle's "The Power of Now": The past and the fu2re don't exist, except in our memories and imaginations. Everything we plan, we plan now. Everything we do, we do now. And even every thing about our pasts, we worry about or remember fondly right now. Why not live in the now, rather than fret over past perceived wrongs and worry about a fu2re that hasn't happened?

Quote:
There. I said it. Go ahead and stone me.


I wouldn't dream of it.

Quote:
It just seems disingenuous to me for those affaired against spouses who seek or sought reconciliation to turn around and say "you should have divorced rather than have an affair" -- if divorce was an acceptable outcome to that person, presumably they would have divorced rather than try to recover the marriage.


Very good point.

Quote:
I've always wondered what they would say to a poster who showed up in my predicament BEFORE the affair: "Hi, I'm miserable, can't get my husbands attention or get him to counseling, but he REALLY doesn't want a divorce so I'm thinking of having an affair to blow up an intolerable situation-- should I file for a divorce he REALLY doesn't want or have an affair because continuing as we are is simply out of the question?"


I've ac2ally seen this exact scenario "play out" on MB many times over the 8 years I was a member there. I can't recall a single si2ation that didn't end just like most of the labeled-unrepentant WS threads. They were driven off within a 2ple days, usually. A more interesting treatment of such si2ations, if you like High Drama (I wish I didn't, but I still sometimes do), can be found here: [url=www.loveshack.org]Loveshack[/url] Wide ranges of opinions are tolerated there, as are vitriolic attacks (though it's not as bad as a lot of the stuff on MB, the language used can be a lot more colorful! shocked. I should probably stop posting there myself, because I will admit 2 still getting sucked in2 the drama at times when I post. I'm working on it. And I do still know a handful of old friends from there and refugees from MB that I still follow and sometimes invite here (via PM, they don't allow posting other forum links on their forum).

Quote:
I suppose one response might be to tell him I was about to have an affair, but that didn't occur to me -- if you punish honesty, you are likely to get less of it and I don't think the person doing the punishing has standing to complain about what they then don't know.


I used 2 punish my wife quite a bit for "choosing affair". Even sporadically as recently as a 2ple years ago. I insisted it wasn't punishing, but pointing out or highlighting consequences. But that was "educating". I certainly wasn't hearing what she was trying 2 tell me, and obviously not understanding her either.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Al
In the case of Infidelity I am guessing that there is an "escaping partner" and a "stay-at-home" partner.


For what it's worth, shifting my thinking from "I'm the bad/evil one and he is the good/virtuous one" to this model has shifted the way I think about myself and him, and started me on a path to thinking about considering maybe possibly someday relating to him in a healthier, more hones fashiont. I don't actually DO that you understand, but I do have the mental conversations which is way ahead of where I was six months ago.


Me 2! (2 my wife, that is).

Quote:
I am officially bored with infidelity-- can't seem to gin up that self-loathing the way I used to. I don't think infidelity is particularly relevant to my life anymore, and I'm turning my attention to learning healthy relationship skills.


Me 2, and Al's stuff is a refreshingly new and improved way 2 take a whack at that, in my view.

And yes, I'm getting tired of infidelity as a discussion topic, 2. Or, maybe better stated, I'm tired of the sophomoric manner in which it's often discussed. I'm open 2 discussing it as an adult, with the goal of gaining more wisdom if that's possible.

Quote:
Come to think of it, it probably isn't healthy for me to hang out somewhere where triggery words like "evil" and "infidel" are impossible to avoid. I wonder why that just now occurred to me.



I remember priding myself over the years in my ability (really not all that many instances, but maybe a dozen or so) 2 treat an active wayward with what I thought was respect. I didn't label people, only actions. I seldom used the word "evil", even when labeling actions, but I probably did still use it. It used 2 be possible 2 reach out somewhat 2 active waywards on MB without driving them away immediately. At least for a few days.

But now that I think about it, I probably could have done a lot better even in the cases where I believe I was helpful 2 the OP. And that has me thinking about ways I might improve my approach 2 newbies on loveshack. ...would be good practice for me (like I view the religion/validation thread in TD).

...though I have a lot of cool work tasks 2 attend 2 that I SHOULD attend 2! wink but I won't let go completely of this great growth 2l I've found here.

Thanks again, Al!

-ol' 2long

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #100124
04/29/11 06:15 PM
04/29/11 06:15 PM
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Telly Offline
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Al et al,

I just wanted to say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread, and seeing how people are changing their thinking about themselves, their choices, and those of others even in this short time.

Along those same lines, I wanted to say thank you to Al for posting this:

Quote:
This reminds me of learning about "guilt". I have come to see guilt as an issue of time travel - as a bit crazy. Yesterday I did something, because I thought that was the right thing to do. Later in the evening I learned something that showed me what I had done was not the right thing to do. Today I feel guilty for having done that thing - I kick myself cus I did something where I should have known better. But I couldn't have known better. I may feel sad that I did what I did, but that sadness only based on having learned something later. To feel guilty I have to take today's knowledge and put it into yesterday's event. Voila - time travel.


I often feel an unreasonable and almost unaccountable amount of guilt for things that happened years and years ago. Things no one else judges me for, or probably even remembers for that matter. Things I feel I have done.

(For example: I still feel a terrible stab of pain when I remember playing a chasing game with my brother when his finger got stuck in the door that I was closing--his cries of pain can still reverberate through my mine at times. That happened at least 30 years ago).

Your words are very helpful and soothing to me. I skimmed them the first time I read them and thought "yes, that's probably something I should think more about", but then today I was re-reading the last few pages of this thread, and the idea of having done something I thought was the right thing to do was very comforting.

2Long's post was also very helpful about the concept of "now". Because I am exhausted. And I felt a thousand things pressing on me that I "should" do, including going to check on my husband who has been being quite crabby. Instead, I am now considering what I WANT to do. How do I want to spend this moment of "now". Not how "should" I spend it.

Getting rid of unnecessary should's and shame must make life feel so much easier...

So thanks everyone.


Married 13 years
D10
D5
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: ForeverHers] #100140
04/29/11 06:56 PM
04/29/11 06:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
So I'm confused by the meaning behind the word "Best" as you are using it here.
I hope I am clearer now. Thanks for asking.
Thanks for attempting to answer and clarify, but I'm probably even more confused now, as I related in previous responses above.
Well, I can try. It all seems clear to me, but it has taken years of "mental gestation." I recall hearing that talking to Albert Einstein was fairly frustrating because he would hear what you were saying and simultaneously try to put your thought into his theories/understandings. Maybe your confusion is not in hearing or understanding me, but in trying to figure out how my words fit into your understanding of the world. Good luck. Take your time.

Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
By the way, is this a pretty heavy topic for you?
Heavy topic? Not sure what you mean by that.
By "heavy" I mean something that contains lots of perhaps emotional triggers/importance for you.

Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Did you experience an affair in a couple nearby? I have certainly seen 100s and 100s.
Yes, Al, both in couples I know and in my own marriage. Why do you ask?
Well, I ask simply to get to know you better. Whenever I think someone is pretty invested in a topic, I look toward them to connect with the "person" who has what looks like a heavy investment. My question is just a way of trying to connect.

Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
As a spiritual project I took on the task of at least PreValidating each person. I think it is the act of PreValidation that leads me to refer to "his best" or "her best" or "best according to my faith" or "best according to my dad" etc. etc.

Okay, I prevalidate in "assigning" intrinsic worth to each individual, not to their actions. Is there something different that you had in mind?
Yep. I see PreValidating as an attitude, and any action that displays the attitude, that people make sense (are congruent) even before they tell you about. I do not see PreValidation as having anything to do with "intrinsic value." I focus on actions, which includes feelings and thoughts as being types of actions.

Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
If judgments are always fine, but you are supposed to keep judgments out of PreValidating and Validating someone, I am trying to figure out just what you are saying here.
You might still be trying to grasp what I am saying. I think it valuable to keep my judgments out of the process of validating someone else. And I think it very desireable to validate and PreValidate other people's judgments.


Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
If judgments are always fine, if they are based on ownership ("according to whom") and if they are without ownership THEN they are "MasterTalk, invalidating, and usually a waste of time, then what do you think is the huge "fuss" when someone says, "according to God" (the whom) "because that is being judgmental?
Ah this could be cool. I think the problem is maybe here. Whose understanding of God are you referring to? As a mere mortal, I cannot speak for God. I can seek to understand God and I can share all the different understandings I have had of God over my life. I can be open to other people's interpretations of God. I usually am. But I firmly I cannot (Warning, warning. Dangerous word to follow!) arrogate to myself speaking for God.

Mind you I've shared about a pastor friend of mine who tried to speak with personal ownership from the pulpit and told me that it just didn't fit. He reverted to MasterTalk from the pulpit and dialogue everywhere else.

When someone says, "according to God", (by the way all this topic is I think called Attribution Theory), I happily attribute that understanding of God to the speaker. "So believe such and such is according to God. Great."

In a way, I think whatever I say is owned by me. Whatever you say is owned by you. My point in focusing on MasterTalk is that in most cases it seems to me necessary to be explicit about ownership to avoid fighting. I think marriage conflict is commonly resolved by avoiding or at least happily dealing with MasterTalk.

Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
If ownership of a judgment is provided, THEN there can't be any MasterTalk, invalidating, or wasting of time seems to be what you said here.
Well, I think that get's tricky and can involve gossip. I can say that "Jane believes this." or "Michael told me this about you." Ownership may seem to be applied to Jane or Michael, but really both sentences belong to the speaker. "I believe Jane believes this." or "I recall Michael saying this about you." In a real way I believe that Jane and Michael are not involved at all.

I have intense beliefs about God's position. They've formed over many years, much life, much reading. I can share those beliefs. But again, I do not(dangerous word to follow!) arrogate to my self the right to speak for God.

Hope this helps. Sorry to take so long to get to the end of your message.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Telly] #100145
04/29/11 07:05 PM
04/29/11 07:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Telly
I often feel an unreasonable and almost unaccountable amount of guilt for things that happened years and years ago. Things no one else judges me for, or probably even remembers for that matter. Things I feel I have done.
Yup. Me too. One of my mentors said simply, "Yes, always be open to learning. But whatever else, just try not to feel guilty."

I do recall that "guilt" is just one form of "fear". I think being "curious" and PreValidating yourself back then and forgiving yourself back then are useful to help the learning.

Thanks, Telly, for joining in.

P.S. You might consider PreValidating yourself with what seems like "unreasonable" or "unaccountable" amount of guilt. Might be worth figuring out why that amount of "fear/guilt" is reasonable and accountable for you. Just a thought.

Last edited by AlTurtle; 04/29/11 07:09 PM. Reason: Added PS

Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #138872
07/24/11 12:30 PM
07/24/11 12:30 PM
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Manup Offline
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I struggle with validation, i try to apply it, but I believe it still comes across in clunky type of way.. though it has to be said, it does seem to calm my wife down some as we wade through the custody process.

This is a video on validation i found, always looking for perspectives on validation, as i think this is a skill that will serve me well for the rest of my life, just a pity to be learning it now so late in life,

http://motivationalspeaker1.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/validate-someone-today/

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Manup] #139374
07/25/11 11:42 PM
07/25/11 11:42 PM
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Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline
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This is a thoroughly enjoyable video - thank you!

My only issues is that it is not about what I consider "validation" but rather about "affirmation." Although parking garages don't "affirm" but "validate," so it wouldn't work as well.

Affirmations are valuable, and the feel-good story in the video demonstrates why. However, notice the subtext about how dependent many of the people became on him, and how angry they got when he didn't give it to them. That's one of the differences between validation and affirmation to me. The affirmations put a band-aid on what was hurting them, but didn't get to the root. It left them wanting (and perhaps needing) more.

For me, validating is about accepting where the person is in this moment, which could be experiencing difficult or painful feelings.

I'm wondering what feels "clunky" about when it is attempted with your wife. Unlike the video, you're probably not trying to get her to smile. I'm guessing that the calmness comes from her recognizing that you are making an effort to connect with what she is expressing, and acknowledging that effort does go a long way. It does feel uncomfortable and unnatural at first - since most of us are not taught about it or how to do it.

Keep at it - it may be too late to save this marriage, but will pay richly in all relationships, including the post-D one with her.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #139490
07/26/11 11:08 AM
07/26/11 11:08 AM
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Manup Offline
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Yes I enjoyed the video , reaslly well made and agree girl had an incredible smile!

I'm just so awkward with the validation skills, coming from a mastertalk background as I am. We only communicate by email. I work to respond to her emails by using validation, but I find recently she ignores the validation components,and attributes everything as a demand.

Good advice I will keep at it, my kids responnd well to it, just probably too late with my wife. I think her anger is so strong, that she just shields everything I say.

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Manup] #139570
07/26/11 04:13 PM
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Fiddler Offline
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Keep working at it - regardless of what happens with your marriage, the skills are invaluable.

It's really difficult via e-mail, since the nonverbal elements of validation are so important. More is conveyed by a tone of voice that signals acceptance of the other person.

I'm wondering if it might be possible to respond to an e-mail from her with only validation statements.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Manup] #139579
07/26/11 05:24 PM
07/26/11 05:24 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Edmond Dantes Offline
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[quote

Good advice I will keep at it, my kids responnd well to it, just probably too late with my wife. I think her anger is so strong, that she just shields everything I say. [/quote]

MU, I imagine your situation is different than mine but if my experience helps at all you might consider that you are in very early days.

My wife was very angry with me for over a year. Full shields up, dismissive and seemingly skeptical of everything I said and did. Only two months ago did she tell me that she didn't let her anger go until she realised she was holding me responsible for where she was in her life and how much that disempowered her. Before that I also got a lot of my own previous mastertalk thrown back at me.

Since then we have made big strides in the last few weeks re-establishing a friendship, she contacts me almost everyday and she seems to be mirroring more and more of my improved friend based form of communication.

I suspect her anger reflects how strong her connection to you remains. Perhaps if you continue to focus on improving your skills and cultivating patience, she may work her way through her stuff and you'll start to notice some improvements in the way she relates to you.

I wish you well. I remember how awful the bad times were but also how much I learned and grew from them. I hope it will be similar for you.


Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Edmond Dantes] #139614
07/26/11 07:05 PM
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Manup Offline
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Hey Edmond

Thankyou for the words of support, I have to constantly keep my own mastertalk in check and not lash out and I must admit thats a struggle in the face of her blast furnace responses. They seem engineered to provoke angry responses. I am slowly learning patience, for me its a tough hard lesson, with no positive results so far, just all of us stressed out over the acrimony.

That sounds like things are improving for you, I was wondering how you were, as hadnt seen you post for a few weeks here. It must be heartening for you and it is great to hear.



Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #140010
07/27/11 09:05 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: fddlr3
It's really difficult via e-mail, since the nonverbal elements of validation are so important. More is conveyed by a tone of voice that signals acceptance of the other person. I'm wondering if it might be possible to respond to an e-mail from her with only validation statements.

So, just a gentle reminder. What you are speaking of and doing, fddlr3, is not validation as I see it. I titled this topic "Secret of Validation" because some many years ago I rejected part of what I see is the way you go about it.

I have no problem with you posting anywhere, including here, with your thoughts. I think your contribution is consistently very very good. I like you. And so consider this a Welcome message, please.

I am amused by the people who say they don't like your contributions/style - therapist forsooth! I PreValidate them.

I know we have called it Validation-Al and Validation-fddlr3. And that is fine by me. I just remind you that I believe you miss "my secret of validation."


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #140204
07/28/11 03:16 PM
07/28/11 03:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,219
Monterey, CA
Fiddler Offline
Board of Directors
Fiddler  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,219
Monterey, CA
I am very interested in hearing more about what you see the differences might be, and particularly your thoughts about what is being missed.


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #140512
07/29/11 05:41 AM
07/29/11 05:41 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
M
Manup Offline
Member
Manup  Offline
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M
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
... just when I thought I understood what validation was

I prefix my comments in my emails to my wife with , I think, or I believe and remove the You in the sentences. I only ever talk from my point of view in terms of whatI am doing. It's never about her. My aim is to validate and ultimately make her feel safer.

What I find though, its like she wipes the first part of the sentence off, ignoring the validation piece and turns it into reading it as a demand. Therefore the validation becomes ineffective. Is this something that happens, is it that Im lousy at validation,,,, do you just hang in there, and keep going regardless of the responses.

I seem to moving her further away from safety.

Re: Topic 4: "The Secret of Validation" - Building Trust [Re: Manup] #140619
07/29/11 04:28 PM
07/29/11 04:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
AlTurtle Offline OP
Retired Therapist
AlTurtle  Offline OP
Retired Therapist
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
Northwest Washington State, US...
Originally Posted By: Manup
... just when I thought I understood what validation was
Tis quite a learning process. Lots of surprising twists and turns learning to validate well and easily.

Originally Posted By: Manup
I prefix my comments in my emails to my wife with , I think, or I believe and remove the You in the sentences. I only ever talk from my point of view in terms of whatI am doing. It's never about her. My aim is to validate and ultimately make her feel safer. What I find though, its like she wipes the first part of the sentence off, ignoring the validation piece and turns it into reading it as a demand. Therefore the validation becomes ineffective. Is this something that happens, is it that Im lousy at validation,,,, do you just hang in there, and keep going regardless of the responses.
I found the same thing. For me it happened even in face to face conversation. That old "remove the 'I think that'" is very familiar. Just because you insert a boundary phrase doesn't mean your partner has good boundaries. Some people are so used to feeling attacked that they can turn an attempt to validate them into a full out case of defense.

So you have to back up, PreValidate them, and find out how to "share" without them running in fear. I dropped all "you messages". Then I dropped all "I think that you" messages. Then I dropped any message that had an observation on them. "I noticed you feeling sad." I dropped all "theories about them." I even dropped asking questions for quite a while. What seemed to be at the core was their fear of being "seen" at all. So I dropped back to only sharing about myself and inviting/pulling them with very light mirroring. My frequent pulling statement was something like, "If you ever have an idea why you do that, I'm interested."

Much of the trouble came from a) my intensity of curiosity and b) my impatience. Would come across as pushing - me a big time clinger. I could, if I let myself go, ask hundreds too many questions.

Fddlr3's type of validation would not work at all. Much too "invasive," "interpretive," "analytical."

PreValidation always worked with the lite mirroring.

Originally Posted By: Manup
I seem to moving her further away from safety.
Just gotta get more accurate. Patience my friend.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
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