Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 12 guests, and 34 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
 Trending Topics(Posts)
1.How to deconstruct a marriage.0
2.I am Sick, I am Sad, and I am needing some support.0
3.SIHW is back and Dealing with issues....0
4.looking for some support0
5.Social Networking Sites and Infidelity0
6.Signs of Infidelity0
7.The Difference Between Cheating and Infidelity?0
8.Not really sure how to survive0
9.The Five Big Lies That Keep You From Changing0
10.Pregnant and getting put out of the house by my husband0
*By replies in last 2 weeks.
In The Media(Posts)
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Does anyone remember this story?3
Validation to find-win-win slutions2
Things men want3
These Are The Signs You're Dating A Narcissist3
Girlfriend's 'controlling' list of 22 rules for boyfriend goes viral: 'She sounds crazy'9
What Divorced Men Wish They Had Done Differently In Their Marriages7
Alienation of Affection / Criminal Conversation9
Would you pay your ex a 'break-up fee'? - BBC3
more >>
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #322390
11/08/13 06:31 AM
11/08/13 06:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Lil
I have been searching thru my main commputer this morning, and look what I found smile

Lil's Extraordinary Precautions

I will protect my husband at all times
I will practice the MB principals as stated by Dr. Harley
I will share all passwords, and account info with my husband.
I will make my cell phone available to my husband at any time
I will share my private feelings, thoughts, and concerns with my husband
I will share my schedule with my husband and discuss any changes with him.
I will not discuss my personal issues with any man besides my husband unless he gives his consent
I will not help/discuss another mans problems unless my husband gives his consent

I will not be alone with another man unless my husband approves.
I will not go out with another man unless my husband is present.
I will not have a male therapist or personal trainer unless my husband is present or there is an emergency and I am need of immediate assistance.
I will not participate in activities without my husband unless he approves enthusiastically.
I will never have any secrets from my husband - unless its his birthday or Christmas present.
I will not let anybody walk over me I will stand up for myself
I will not accept anything but Openness & Honesty
I will listen to my gut/instincts
I will wake up each morning and make a concentrated effort to be happy






Just recently, the bolded things have been a small issue for us. Its good to review this. Thanks for the bump Vit.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #322412
11/08/13 02:43 PM
11/08/13 02:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: Ldg
In my (unpopular) opinion, EP's should be mutual and address the fears of both spouses.


The part you have bracketed, 'unpopular', is simply not true for most if not all who see the value in EP's. The concern I see when you state it like this, that your opinion of EP's being mutual is not popular, indicates that the there is also another view which is more popular. And that would be that EP's are not mutual.

If you read through this thread again, you will see that EP's are absolutely mutual. EP's set out by the BS, the ones that are non-negotiable like NC, transparency, the WS has the choice to not accept them. Both spouses agreeing to attempt R, knowing what EP's are on the list (tweaked to their sitch) enter into this agreement on their own free will. I see that as mutual unless one of them has a gun to their head.

Recovery can't be forced on either party.



My sense from you is that you forced a whole lot of stuff on your husband with a punitive attitude.

My sense from you is that you are uncomfortable with that.

Few show up here with the "my way or the high way" MelodyLane attitude, but from what I can tell, that is your perpective.

I think that is a very valuable perspective to have. Not everyone is me, chafing like mad at all of it. Not everyone is like your husband, willing to take a polygraph and have you as his taskmaster where he reports to you and you monitor his every move and keystroke.

That doesn't make him better than me or vice versa. We are just different --I couldn't tolerate the life he leads, but if it works for y'all that is all that matters.

I can't imagine my brain telling my fingers to type out a response like the one above. It's nasty, beyond rude, disrespectful to folks who aren't involved in this conversation (my H for one and I'll speak to that in a sec.) and most of all it lends no hand to resolving anything.

I find your description of how you view my H's actions, more than a bit offensive. I don't doubt he'd view it in the same light and be very hurt for anyone seeing his actions the way you do. I felt hurt for him reading your words.

I have huge respect for the effort and commitment he put forth to rebuild what his A broke in our M. Reading your views on recovery confirms over and over what a precious gem of a man I have.

This conversation needs to be over on this thread so if you feel the need to rip one again, my suggestion would be to use the TD.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322514
11/08/13 08:39 PM
11/08/13 08:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
I'm sorry you were offended by my words. That was not my intent. My intent was to illustrate that there is a spectrum of unfaithful spouses, some of whom are willing to do whatever their spouses asks, some of whom are willing to do some stuff, and some of whom are willing to do very little.

I think it is dangerous to assume that an unfaithful spouse isn't committed to reconciliation based upon where they fall on that spectrum.

Some EP's may exacerbate pre-existing problems in the marriage. IMO the unfaithful spouse should refuse that particular EP. That refusal may be perceived as evidence that the spouse is not invested in recovery when it is nothing of the sort.

I think every marriage is different and what works for one would be a disaster in another. I'm not a fan of "you must do X Y & Z" in any context so had my husband been told to require those EP's, it would have harmed our marriage, not helped it.

Again, my apologies for offending you.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322595
11/09/13 04:41 AM
11/09/13 04:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: Ldg
In my (unpopular) opinion, EP's should be mutual and address the fears of both spouses.


The part you have bracketed, 'unpopular', is simply not true for most if not all who see the value in EP's. The concern I see when you state it like this, that your opinion of EP's being mutual is not popular, indicates that the there is also another view which is more popular. And that would be that EP's are not mutual.

If you read through this thread again, you will see that EP's are absolutely mutual. EP's set out by the BS, the ones that are non-negotiable like NC, transparency, the WS has the choice to not accept them. Both spouses agreeing to attempt R, knowing what EP's are on the list (tweaked to their sitch) enter into this agreement on their own free will. I see that as mutual unless one of them has a gun to their head.

Recovery can't be forced on either party.



My sense from you is that you forced a whole lot of stuff on your husband with a punitive attitude.

My sense from you is that you are uncomfortable with that.

Few show up here with the "my way or the high way" MelodyLane attitude, but from what I can tell, that is your perpective.

I think that is a very valuable perspective to have. Not everyone is me, chafing like mad at all of it. Not everyone is like your husband, willing to take a polygraph and have you as his taskmaster where he reports to you and you monitor his every move and keystroke.

That doesn't make him better than me or vice versa. We are just different --I couldn't tolerate the life he leads, but if it works for y'all that is all that matters.

I can't imagine my brain telling my fingers to type out a response like the one above. It's nasty, beyond rude, disrespectful to folks who aren't involved in this conversation (my H for one and I'll speak to that in a sec.) and most of all it lends no hand to resolving anything.

I find your description of how you view my H's actions, more than a bit offensive. I don't doubt he'd view it in the same light and be very hurt for anyone seeing his actions the way you do. I felt hurt for him reading your words.

I have huge respect for the effort and commitment he put forth to rebuild what his A broke in our M. Reading your views on recovery confirms over and over what a precious gem of a man I have.

This conversation needs to be over on this thread so if you feel the need to rip one again, my suggestion would be to use the TD.



Sometimes-- not always-- but sometimes when stuff really pisses you off you might want to look at whether there is a truth there you don't want to look at.

I do not subscribe to the theory that that is always the case. Sometimes people are just jerks or syncophants.

My sense is that there is truth in what I said that you don't want to look at.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #322604
11/09/13 01:29 PM
11/09/13 01:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm sorry you were offended by my words. That was not my intent.

I'll be forthright here, cuz that's what I feel we both are, I don't trust this statement. You're not a stupid woman, LdG, in fact I think you are pretty intelligent. You chose your words carefully to make it personal.


Quote:
My intent was to illustrate that there is a spectrum of unfaithful spouses, some of whom are willing to do whatever their spouses asks, some of whom are willing to do some stuff, and some of whom are willing to do very little.

I think it is dangerous to assume that an unfaithful spouse isn't committed to reconciliation based upon where they fall on that spectrum.

Some EP's may exacerbate pre-existing problems in the marriage. IMO the unfaithful spouse should refuse that particular EP. That refusal may be perceived as evidence that the spouse is not invested in recovery when it is nothing of the sort.

I think every marriage is different and what works for one would be a disaster in another. I'm not a fan of "you must do X Y & Z" in any context so had my husband been told to require those EP's, it would have harmed our marriage, not helped it.


The above is a great post despite the fact that I don't support all of it. This is one that is soooo workable to me to discuss and hash out the why's and what if's. This is one I would have enjoyed discussing with you, not only cuz of your thoughts on the subject but how you articulated it. There was no crap.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322605
11/09/13 01:35 PM
11/09/13 01:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted By: LdG
Sometimes-- not always-- but sometimes when stuff really pisses you off you might want to look at whether there is a truth there you don't want to look at.

I do not subscribe to the theory that that is always the case. Sometimes people are just jerks or syncophants.

My sense is that there is truth in what I said that you don't want to look at.

Sure, I'm open to talking about this. Start a thread and let me know where it is unless you think it can be tied to EP's, I'm fine with it being here.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) #322676
11/09/13 08:49 PM
11/09/13 08:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
wiser_now Offline
Member
wiser_now  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
My friend's husband had an affair two years ago. They are struggling in their recovery.

I asked her, not for the first time, if he understands why he had an affair.

He says he doesn't know.

She has made guesses, which she shares: she tells me about her illness at the time, how she was too racked with pain to pay attention to him, how her weight gain from the medications made her unattractive to him, and also mentions his triggers because his first wife died and he was afraid she would, too. In short, she points to everything she did "wrong" but not to him.

So my question now becomes: If an unfaithful spouse cannot tell you why they cheated, how can they know they will never do it again?

So, what do you think?

PS: There is much more to this story, as there always is... and frankly, I find her husband to be disingenuous and creepy. But it really brought up this notion that one would need to know what to avoid if something in particular caused the cheating. That's why I began this thread - to discuss it.


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322683
11/09/13 09:40 PM
11/09/13 09:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
wiser_now Offline
Member
wiser_now  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,611
I wrote something that came up because of a friend of mine... CLICK HERE

Now I'm wondering if it should be in this thread? Mods, if you stumble across this, maybe move it over here?

How can someone have EPs if they don't even know what caused them to stumble in the first place?


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: wiser_now] #322688
11/09/13 10:12 PM
11/09/13 10:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,010
star*fish Offline
Board of Directors
star*fish  Offline
Board of Directors
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,010
I don't think this is unusual. Sometimes it takes the WS a while before they really "know" why they cheatedespecially when the situation is complicated like the one you've described. However, I do agree that part of the recovery process is the exploration of the all of the contributing factors.

There are a couple of reasons that it's important, including the one you mention about being able to prevent future infidelity. Its also important because understanding "why" is a huge part of the process to re-establish safety for the BS. After all.both partners have some changes to make and neither will really know what's important without understanding. The WS will have to take extra-ordinary precautions. The BS will want to know what puts the most stress on the marriage, and when things are most likely to unravel. I believe the inability to understand why delays or can even derail recovery, especially for the BS. Recovery is still possible, but it's much harder.

Still, I know there are many WS who never really knowor tellthe real reasons why. Some people are just not good communicators or seem out of touch or uncomfortable with their own feelings. That doesn't mean they don't feel remorseonly that they may have trouble expressing it. Shame and guilt can also make communication difficult at first.

That doesn't mean future problems can't be addressed if all of the necessary safeguards are put in place. Besides the mandatory no contact with the OP, the article I wrote about "22 ways to keep from cheating on your spouse", was written in collaboration with WS's who were willing to share the big and small things that got them in trouble and started their slide down the slippery slope. Then I compared those things to other lists from other experts and made sure I wasn't missing anything important. Even if a spouse doesn't yet know, or has talked about, why they cheatedif they follow those guidelines, they can avoid the temptation of affairs in the future.

I was not satisfied with "I don't know". It happened to be a deal breaker for me. But even though we talked about it right after discovery, full understanding actually took years.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: star*fish] #322720
11/10/13 01:52 AM
11/10/13 01:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Ive made some assumptions over the years as to why my husband cheated - some I facilitated, most his own stuff. He's made a couple of comments in that time that gave me a little insight.

Now adays I just dont think about it. I dont like revisiting it, nor does he. It happened, it sucked, we moved on and made a new marriage that doesnt suck. If it happenes again I will go forward guilt free because I know I did my bit.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322724
11/10/13 03:13 AM
11/10/13 03:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm sorry you were offended by my words. That was not my intent.

I'll be forthright here, cuz that's what I feel we both are, I don't trust this statement. You're not a stupid woman, LdG, in fact I think you are pretty intelligent. You chose your words carefully to make it personal.


Of course it was personal. It doesn't follow that it was meant to be offensive.

I have a vision of your marriage based upon the way you post here. I have zero outside data. Based upon what you have posted, your husband agreed to everything you required, including the polygraph, GPS and keylogger. As far as I can tell, you have never let up on any of that stuff.

The posts from you that I read here seem to be very focused on setting the bar high and EP's. I suspect that you have used those concepts in a punitive manner in your marriage because you are a little too strident.

I was pleased to see you say that your husband is a "gem" because that was the first positive comment -- or really any comment -- I have read from you about your husband. You talk about yourself rarely, you talk about EP's and the bar a lot, and you talk about your husband almost never.

I think you are still madder than hell about what he did to you. Don't blame you a bit.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #322732
11/10/13 07:07 AM
11/10/13 07:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
Mary Emma Offline
Member
Mary Emma  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
Victoria, i understand what you are saying. The person cheated really, really broke the marriage and if they want back in they are going to have to agree to the terms set by the betrayed spouse. The cheater is free to agree to accept or reject the terms.


LG, i almost always agree with you but this i think i see it q bit differently. EPs are not punitive, they do several things. First and foremost give the betrayed spouse some safety, secondly, the show they truly care about their betrayed spouse but finally, wisely to not wind up in the same situation again.

Years back i wrote online if my marriage continued the way it was i could someday consider an affair. I wrote than a few times. I felt very ignored and felt my husband was mean. I felt trapped with children and not enough money to separate if i wanted to. Never ever cheated or anything never, never inappropriate. Ever. My hubby reads those posts and they still hurt him to this day. I am more than willing to do anything it takes to make him feel safe and understood. Recently, i had several conference calls in one day and missed his call and it worried him ( because we are having a difficult time in the marriage).

I told him, i will sign up for a lie detector test, i will make a point to keep the phone near by so i don't miss his cell phone call. heck i am willing to have myself taped with Skype. He found all of it unnecessary. But if you love someone and you have hurt them, it would make sense to me to be willing to do what ever you can to help them feel better. I think EPs are just exactly that, IMHO.


If they have to be forced upon someone one than perhaps there is still trouble in the relationship.


I can not imagine it ever even being a burden or punishment. Of course this is just my opinion.





Last edited by Mary Emma; 11/10/13 07:19 AM.

Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mary Emma] #322734
11/10/13 07:13 AM
11/10/13 07:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
Mary Emma Offline
Member
Mary Emma  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
Now this whole issue of forgiveness, i would love a thread to discuss that. I think the terms is overused and has different meanings for many.


I, personally, am not a fan of forgiveness. I am a fan of healing and i think forgiveness it at the end of the healing not the first step. I think somethings are not to be forgiven but instead resolved and learned from.

This blanket absolution actually seems crazy to me.

Why is it acceptable to never forgive someone who killed someone you love or beat and raped you, etc. but a spouse that has hurt you to the core forgiveness is brought up as almost mandatory.

I am referring specifically to experiences pertaining to me. I really, really am a fan of earned forgiveness.


Last edited by Mary Emma; 11/10/13 07:17 AM.

Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mary Emma] #322738
11/10/13 01:06 PM
11/10/13 01:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
Member
herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
Quote:
I think it is dangerous to assume that an unfaithful spouse isn't committed to reconciliation based upon where they fall on that spectrum.


I think the above can be taken to an extreme, but I have to say I understand it as well.

I remember there being a woman who cheated while making a CD of her singing. She had been a vocal performer. As part of Just Compensation and EP's she stopped singing/performing. After several years of recovery, transparency, trust being restored, etc. she wanted to sing in a church choir. A choir. A church choir is a group that meets all together - usually from 30 to maybe in the hundreds - for an hour or so each week and practices music to sing on Sundays. All together, no one on one. It is not even like a worship team, which is a very small group that meets for a longer time. She was RAILED for being wayward. When I tried to explain thinking maybe some people didn't understand how ridiculous it was to think someone could carry on an affair while spending an hour a week with 50 other people....I was railed for having "wayward thinking."

I'm sorry, that was idiotic.

As for this "breaking the marraige" thing...

An A breaks vows. An A breaks trust. n a breaks hearts. An A is a terrible, immoral choice that is the responsibility of the one who makes it.

But there ARE times (sorry, there ARE no matter whose emotions want to rail otherwise)....there ARE times when the A was not the only thing that broke the marriage. In fact, in some cases - like mine - the A is not the first thing to break the marriage.

Does that mean that I am not 100% responsible for my choice to cheat? NO. No it does not mean that. I was 100% responsible for my choice to cheat, and nothing that H did or did not do excuses or justifies that choice. It was wrong. I wanted to make that clear for anyone who has selective reading comprehension.

But yes.....there IS a spectrum. Because I was thin when I had my A and exercising, h asked me to stop. I stopped exercising and watching my diet (he didn't like it when he knew I was counting calories), even when the meds caused me to gain 75 pounds, even when my BP creeped up and my knees hurt. Even when I cried and tried to fake sickness on church directory picture day because I hated what I saw in the mirror.

Now people who are so hardened by THEIR situation will read that, and with out a flicker of human empathy or compassion say, "Well fatty, you should have thought of that before you cheated."

Bullcrap. EP's to only exercise with HIM, EP's not to diet, EP's like that are reasonable. Putting my health at risk and emotionally crippling me was NOT a reasonable take on EP's. Period. I am finally healthy again, but I have permanent physical repercussions of being overmedicated and overweight.

THAT was not a result of an A. THAT was a result of militant legalistic paranoia.

I spent a lot of years revising any thought that someone who has no room for any opinions other than their own might deem "unworthy." THAT was dishonest, and isn't it DISHONESTY that is one of the root problems in an affair? How sad that in an effort to be "unwayward enough," I actually had to retain some wayward habits. Pathetic.

I understand now more about my vulnerabilities, my blindness to the deceitful wayward thinking I had, and the steps that led to my A more than I ever did in 20009, 2010, 2011.....times when lots of people would have given me the FWW gold star, mainly because of how judgmentally mean I was to other FWS's who weren't exactly like me.

Behavorism is great for pets and potty training. Recovery needs to go deeper than that for someone to TRULY recover from having an A.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 11/10/13 01:08 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #322744
11/10/13 04:10 PM
11/10/13 04:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
Mary Emma Offline
Member
Mary Emma  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,592
See, now, i think you not exercising would not be an EP. The fact that he asked that is disturbing to me. That is a bad thing to ask of someone else, IMHO.

Now if you had an affair and the gym was involved in some way i would understand the desire for you to exercise at home.


Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mary Emma] #322751
11/10/13 05:58 PM
11/10/13 05:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
Member
herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
Yes, if a gym was the birthplace (or had any relevance at all really) to an A, then I think a no-gym-membership policy would make sense.

If I had an A with my singing partner, then no performing with someone of the opposite sex would make sense.

If I met my AP at work or the A was work-related, then workplace exposure and job change would make sense.

Honestly, I think some things that are called "EP"'s are not really EP's at all. "EP" is just the cover someone uses for making sure someone else suffers for as long as possible and is cut off from as much of the world as possible.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #322764
11/10/13 08:45 PM
11/10/13 08:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 37
T
Teejay Offline
Member
Teejay  Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 37
Quote:
If an unfaithful spouse cannot tell you why they cheated, how can they know they will never do it again?

So, what do you think?


There is not one unfaithful spouse in the entire world who "cannot" say why they cheated.

If they don't say why, it can be for a number of reasons, none of which is "cannot". It is simply "won't". Some of them may be unselfish, however, most of them are self-protective more than spouse-protective.

And, like Dr. Phil so aptly says, "you can't change what you don't acknowledge". So, if no "why" is forthcoming from the WS, the greatest likelihood is that he/she WILL cheat again.

Several of those reasons may be:

1) the unfaithful spouse wants to protect the feelings of his/her BS;

2) the unfaithful spouse does not want to "own" his/her actions nor repent of them;

3) the unfaithful spouse wants to ameliorate the repercussions of his/her affair by pretending that there is "no cause" for his/her actions; giving rise to "something bigger than themselves" being "in control" of them;

I think "EPs" are entirely appropriate for both partners BEFORE any affair happens.

Both my wife and I are victims of past affairs of our spouses. We told each other prior to our marriage that our policy is "one strike, you're out". There will be no counseling, no pastors, no reading on websites, no self-help books, it will be GET OUT and STAY OUT FOREVER with divorce actions being filed on the business day following the affair discovery. There will be no reconciliation, not now, not ever.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Teejay] #322781
11/11/13 12:36 AM
11/11/13 12:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Ready? This is very, very long.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I have a vision of your marriage based upon the way you post here. I have zero outside data. Based upon what you have posted, your husband agreed to everything you required, including the polygraph, GPS and keylogger. As far as I can tell, you have never let up on any of that stuff.

I'll give you as much info (no problem with that) as I'm comfortable with sharing on a public internet forum.

First, there was no GPS. It was irrelevant in our sitch. Since H refused to admit to an A or anything inappropriate with OW despite being confronted with sweetheart texts between the two of them, which I happened to come across while waiting for a call to come back on his phone, I installed a keylogger on the comp. I had no idea what I was dealing with, ongoing A, financial impact (found letters from OW thanking him for gifts she'd received via postal mail). That aspect, that tool, it's done, there hasn't been monitoring for contact or a second A for years. We're 5yrs. out from d-day. I'd be concerned myself if I was still monitoring him like that.

Now the polygraph, I know you find this tool offensive so maybe if I give more detail around it (I've posted about this before on MA, feeling like a broken record right now) you might understand the choices I was faced with and my reason for using it. Or not. Like you, I researched this test before I considered it. The best I could with my novice researching ability, anyway. I fully understood the moment I spoke of it to H, I was committed to saying what I meant and meaning what I say.

After 4mos. of him telling me OW was 'just a friend', refusing to return to MC after 2 sessions which btw he'd been more than open to at the start (until the MC started asking uncomfortable questions about his friendship with OW) and some good friends of both his and mine encouraged/supported him to be truthful, he stuck to the just friends story. Knowing I could not remain in a M being lied to about this, I booked a polygraph hoping he'd be willing but knowing if he wasn't, I had my answer for the future. Backstory bit: he had agreed to a poly during this 4mos. stint although I don't believe he ever thought there would really be one, neither did I at the time of that conversation.

Understand at this point I saw my options as D or staying in the M which meant shutting up and enduring the growing resentment towards him. That's not what I see as a healthy M. We'd been married 20yrs. and I was doing everything I could to avoid divorce. Life was hell, I was crazed and he was stressed to the max, you could see it physically in him.

The test was initially offered up an opportunity to reassure me that I was safe from lies in the M regarding the OW. No brow beating, no demands. I was posting on MB at the time and brow beating/demands over this was NOT encouraged, very much frowned upon actually. After a whole bunch of conflict re: poly, he confessed to an A and some details. Remember the level of deceit I was dealing with, 6yr. A, 6yrs. of leading a double life. It wasn't in my best interest to believe he'd confessed to everything since some things still didn't add up. I decided I still needed the test done and he thought he'd avoided that need with his admission.

The second go-round re: poly was stated in the same manner but the focus was specific and life altering cuz it had to with me remaining in a M having doubts about the extent of what he'd disclosed. The exact wording, I can't remember that time although I remember the concept. He followed through with doing the poly after some wretched soul searching days. He didn't jump for joy, wasn't an eager beaver (far from it), yet he did it. He didn't have to, like me he had the choice to walk away from the M. And, I've never heard a spiteful comment from him about it. The last time we spoke of it was when you asked me to ask him something about it and I did. That was quite awhile ago.
It's all past history now. Could it have been solved a different way, I'm sure there are several ways to approach it in hindsight. It was what it was.

Quote:
The posts from you that I read here seem to be very focused on setting the bar high and EP's. I suspect that you have used those concepts in a punitive manner in your marriage because you are a little too strident.

I can see how you get the impression that I'm strident with recovery (high bar, EP's), although I'm not so sure strident is the most accurate word. Your word, your opinion. Loud voice, maybe sometimes, obnoxious, not that I'm aware of. The last couple of days I've been thinking about what is it about LdG that gets me so wound up, so cranked and more so than anyone else on this forum. You are one of very few people in my life (real and online) that bring out the worst in me. I've figured it out, I'm passionate about recovery, the whole process is dear to me. I'm thinking it's the same degree for you with autonomy for example, maybe, you write very strongly about it and you want to protect it all cost. What you write at times, undermines A's and recovery and in turn undermines the pain and effort it takes to get to a good M. I've traced it back to that. Btw, I'm NOT trying to piss you off.

Setting the bar high, right now I'd be divorced or in a M fuming with resentment and mistrust towards my H had I not enforced a boundary of honesty. That's a high bar and one of the hardest things I did cuz the consequence of a boundary being ignored doesn't only affect the one the boundary is directed to. In some way it affects both people. Once we were in recovery, I was faced with another high bar decision and for the life of me I can't remember the details of that one. I felt we needed more support and the result was doing a marital support weekend.

I'm passionate about recovery, it is that painful and difficult. The hopelessness that you'll ever have a happy day again, a day without thinking about the A, it seems life will forever be a big black hole. You can't imagine ever being able to trust your spouse again or the feeling of being on constant high alert ever fading. The learning and putting to practice you do as a couple and individually, it's exhausting and frustrating. You're learning about boundaries, that's easy. Enforcing them, huge learning curve. And, you're dealing with all of this while emotions are still reeling on both sides. When I read of BS's going in circles and posting their fears and the fear of even mentioning let alone using EP's with their spouse, I feel sick for them cuz I know it doesn't have to be that way for them.

Then it gets a bit better. And then a bit better again until one day you wake up and life is good. That day was 2-3yrs. ago, for me. I believe in recovery, I wish everyone who wanted a chance at R got it and recovered their M despite how painful it is. I look back over the first years of R and I can't believe we made it. I also can't dwell on that time cuz it's that painful. At this time thinking about it, d-day was instant death, recovery was like a slow death. Until it got better.

For us, we didn't know intuitively how to recover from this A. But, we had a recipe (MB) to follow and it got us through. A huge part of that recipe included using EP's. I would never have known how to articulate or ask for such precautions without sounding needy and whiny and my H wouldn't have known how to help alleviate my fears. That was his concern, knowing what to do. I wrote some other stuff on this thread about EP's so I'm not going to repeat it, this whole post is long enough.

Is autonomy lost, sure, and it's heavier on the WS side for a period of time. That changes as the M is rebuilt. The question is whether or not the investment is worth the change in mindset and lifestyle and it goes for both spouses.
My H goes on 'guys only' trips and I'm good with it, he doesn't check in with me on a regular basis yet he does frequently (as I do with him) and it's cuz he wants to. Lots of things that started as an EP's have now become regular thoughtful gestures.
EP's along with other ingredients in the recipe were like a life line when we felt like we were sinking.

Quote:
I was pleased to see you say that your husband is a "gem" because that was the first positive comment -- or really any comment -- I have read from you about your husband. You talk about yourself rarely, you talk about EP's and the bar a lot, and you talk about your husband almost never.

There's enough info/drama about us on the internet from me posting during our 4mos. saga than what I'm comfortable with now. As I was typing out the details surrounding the polygraph, I didn't have a good feeling inside (no idea if anyone can relate to this). It was a portrait of a horrible person and that's not my H. I didn't like shining him in that light to people who don't know what he's like now. Why write about things that conger up lousy memories of hurt. The recovery process is different, there's a blessed ending for the work and pain.
I'm good with posting as I do, sharing what I do. If we need help to sort out any junk that we can't manage on our own, we have resources and we use them.

Just because I don't post about him or much about myself, does not mean there must be issues. The fact that there are little to no threads started here by myself does not mean I must not know how to start them.

Quote:
I think you are still madder than hell about what he did to you. Don't blame you a bit.

I've thought about this. I'm not anymore, not for a long time and it's cuz I don't think about it anymore unless of course I'm talking about it like I am now. Even at this moment, yeah, I'm sad for what we went through. Madder than hell, I'm not feeling that emotion at this moment.

You say you wouldn't blame me if I was. After 5yrs. still married and madder than hell, you can blame me for my own misery but I wouldn't expect you to support blame on my H at this point.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322836
11/11/13 02:47 PM
11/11/13 02:47 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,344
O
ohmy_marie Offline
Member
ohmy_marie  Offline
Member
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,344
Originally Posted By: vittoria
Why write about things that conger up lousy memories of hurt. The recovery process is different, there's a blessed ending for the work and pain.


ah, vit ... thanks for sharing! as to what you've shared in the past (I don't read that other site), i'm sure it was driven from a place within yourself that needed comforting. it's all a learning process, right?

congrats on your recovery!


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #323077
11/12/13 05:18 AM
11/12/13 05:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
L
LadyGrey Offline
Professional Attorney
LadyGrey  Offline
Professional Attorney
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,657
Thank you Vittoria for your thoughtful, measured, honest response to me. I have, over the years, come to respect you a great deal for your ability to reflect before reacting. I'm getting better at it, but I have a long way to go.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I have a vision of your marriage based upon the way you post here. I have zero outside data. Based upon what you have posted, your husband agreed to everything you required, including the polygraph, GPS and keylogger. As far as I can tell, you have never let up on any of that stuff.


Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I'll give you as much info (no problem with that) as I'm comfortable with sharing on a public internet forum.

First, there was no GPS. It was irrelevant in our sitch. Since H refused to admit to an A or anything inappropriate with OW despite being confronted with sweetheart texts between the two of them, which I happened to come across while waiting for a call to come back on his phone, I installed a keylogger on the comp. I had no idea what I was dealing with, ongoing A, financial impact (found letters from OW thanking him for gifts she'd received via postal mail). That aspect, that tool, it's done, there hasn't been monitoring for contact or a second A for years. We're 5yrs. out from d-day. I'd be concerned myself if I was still monitoring him like that.


I had no idea that you lived with the "nothing going on" thing for so long. I had no idea that there were financial aspects to the affair. I had no idea you had to be a sleuth.

My husband said after maybe three weeks based upon texts he read on my phone (I really suck at this stuff) "are you having an affair?" Well, yes, sort of, but it isn't physical, which, of course, it was.

I even said out loud at one of our few MC sessions, "of course it was physical" when I meant to say, "of course it wasn't physical." I almost started laughing when neither of them seemed to notice -- and, frankly, I don't think my husband did.

I really suck at this stuff.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Now the polygraph, I know you find this tool offensive so maybe if I give more detail around it (I've posted about this before on MA, feeling like a broken record right now) you might understand the choices I was faced with and my reason for using it. Or not. Like you, I researched this test before I considered it. The best I could with my novice researching ability, anyway. I fully understood the moment I spoke of it to H, I was committed to saying what I meant and meaning what I say.


Maybe the power in the polygraph had less to do with the "truth" you were getting than the fact that you were committed to creating some boundaries.

I don't believe in the accuracy of polygraphs and was taught that they are pointless in law school. I revisited that issue here -- mainly because I was astonished that people were actively promoting passing a polygraph on MB as a requirement for reconciliation (yes, Dorothy, we have gone completely insane!) I view MB like East Berlin -- you can't actually talk to anyone there but maybe you can influence the thinking a bit. I feared that those that followed that advice might break up their families -- impacting their CHILDREN -- based upon questionable science., I found no independent studies that confirmed accuracy beyond mere chance. And I LOOKED. And Medc presumably looked WAY harder than me, but not a one did we find. All of the studies that support the accuracy are sponsored by polygraphers. They just ARE. I didn't make that up.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
After 4mos. of him telling me OW was 'just a friend', refusing to return to MC after 2 sessions which btw he'd been more than open to at the start (until the MC started asking uncomfortable questions about his friendship with OW) and some good friends of both his and mine encouraged/supported him to be truthful, he stuck to the just friends story. Knowing I could not remain in a M being lied to about this, I booked a polygraph hoping he'd be willing but knowing if he wasn't, I had my answer for the future. Backstory bit: he had agreed to a poly during this 4mos. stint although I don't believe he ever thought there would really be one, neither did I at the time of that conversation.


I can see, I think, using it as a tool to bring things to head. What I can't see is placing any merit in the report.

In researching the issue, I of course looked at about 15 websites of what were, based upon my research, top flight polygraphers who dealt with infidelity.

Most if not all of them said either one or both of the following: (1) do not come to see me until you have had intensive marriage counseling and your marriage counselor has recommended a polygraph, and/or (2) I will not do the test unless there is a marriage counselor to whom I report -- in other words, y'all don't get the report.

Those folks I might trust to the extent I could trust the process.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Understand at this point I saw my options as D or staying in the M which meant shutting up and enduring the growing resentment towards him. That's not what I see as a healthy M. We'd been married 20yrs. and I was doing everything I could to avoid divorce. Life was hell, I was crazed and he was stressed to the max, you could see it physically in him.


Marriage can suck the life out of you. I had a friend who said my family put a vacuum cleaner hose in my ear and sucked the life out of me. FTR, I had to go back and edit that sentence several times to make it honest. It's shameful, really.

Divorce seemed like the Holy Grail -- someday, maybe -- or something I earned by suffering X amount, except X was never defined.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The test was initially offered up an opportunity to reassure me that I was safe from lies in the M regarding the OW. No brow beating, no demands. I was posting on MB at the time and brow beating/demands over this was NOT encouraged, very much frowned upon actually.


Well, that's astonishing. Are you sure? Browbeating, judging and demanding seem to be the three rails on which MB rides.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
After a whole bunch of conflict re: poly, he confessed to an A and some details. Remember the level of deceit I was dealing with, 6yr. A, 6yrs. of leading a double life. It wasn't in my best interest to believe he'd confessed to everything since some things still didn't add up. I decided I still needed the test done and he thought he'd avoided that need with his admission


I had no idea you were dealing with that sort of long term relationship. .

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The second go-round re: poly was stated in the same manner but the focus was specific and life altering cuz it had to with me remaining in a M having doubts about the extent of what he'd disclosed.


What possible difference did it make? Why did you need to know?

I have zero doubt that my husband has cheated on me. He is too beautiful and too powerful and too rich and ran in a crowd that was very entitled for a very long time with lots of women provided on private planes, etc.

I don't want to know.

If anyone told me I would be FURIOUS.

That has not one thing to do with my life.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The exact wording, I can't remember that time although I remember the concept. He followed through with doing the poly after some wretched soul searching days. He didn't jump for joy, wasn't an eager beaver (far from it), yet he did it. He didn't have to, like me he had the choice to walk away from the M. And, I've never heard a spiteful comment from him about it. The last time we spoke of it was when you asked me to ask him something about it and I did. That was quite awhile ago.


I'm glad for y'all -- and I am being sincere.

I wouldn't do it for a whole host of reasons, one of which is that what we have is so tenuous, it wouldn't survive me being hooked up to a machine being asked about orgasms.

Hell, *I* wouldn't survive being hooked up to a machine being asked about orgasms.

I'd rather shoot myself.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
It's all past history now. Could it have been solved a different way, I'm sure there are several ways to approach it in hindsight. It was what it was.


No doubt. Have no idea what that better way might have been but it seems to be always elusively out of reach.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The posts from you that I read here seem to be very focused on setting the bar high and EP's. I suspect that you have used those concepts in a punitive manner in your marriage because you are a little too strident.


Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I can see how you get the impression that I'm strident with recovery (high bar, EP's), although I'm not so sure strident is the most accurate word. Your word, your opinion. Loud voice, maybe sometimes, obnoxious, not that I'm aware of. The last couple of days I've been thinking about what is it about LdG that gets me so wound up, so cranked and more so than anyone else on this forum. You are one of very few people in my life (real and online) that bring out the worst in me. I've figured it out, I'm passionate about recovery, the whole process is dear to me. I'm thinking it's the same degree for you with autonomy for example, maybe, you write very strongly about it and you want to protect it all cost.


Yes that is exactly right.

My IC said, "turn on your 'Find my iPhone' and show him how to use it so he can see where you are." And I would have had to show him how to use it.

No, absolutely not.

My IC said, "sit down next to him one night, show him what your posting and talk to him about it."

No, absolutely not.

My IC said, "give him all your passwords to everything."

OK, fine. FINE.

Who actually knows all their passwords? I made a token effort. Hell, if I had to list all of my passwords today, it would take hours to retrieve them.

My husband used the info he got to control me.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
What you write at times, undermines A's and recovery and in turn undermines the pain and effort it takes to get to a good M. I've traced it back to that. Btw, I'm NOT trying to piss you off.


Well, that's good because if you were trying to piss me off, you failed. smile

I don't think you meant "undermines" A's but what is it that I do that you perceive is inconsistent with supporting recovery and marriage?

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Setting the bar high, right now I'd be divorced or in a M fuming with resentment and mistrust towards my H had I not enforced a boundary of honesty. That's a high bar and one of the hardest things I did cuz the consequence of a boundary being ignored doesn't only affect the one the boundary is directed to. In some way it affects both people.


I think there is a corresponding boundary of not punishing your spouse for honesty.

And honestly, I don't thing we will ever get there because he gets SO MAD when I express anything that could be remotely labeled at critical.

SO MAD.

Perhaps I should have set a high bar, but I wasn't exactly in a position to do so, right?

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Once we were in recovery, I was faced with another high bar decision and for the life of me I can't remember the details of that one. I felt we needed more support and the result was doing a marital support weekend.[/quote[

I'm a big believer in outside help through crisis situations.

I spent thirty minutes last Sunday morning laying in bed with my husband talking him out of going to see our marriage counselor.

I'm a big believer in outside help through crisis situations for other people.

[quote=Vittoria]I'm passionate about recovery, it is that painful and difficult. The hopelessness that you'll ever have a happy day again, a day without thinking about the A, it seems life will forever be a big black hole. You can't imagine ever being able to trust your spouse again or the feeling of being on constant high alert ever fading. The learning and putting to practice you do as a couple and individually, it's exhausting and frustrating. You're learning about boundaries, that's easy. Enforcing them, huge learning curve. And, you're dealing with all of this while emotions are still reeling on both sides. When I read of BS's going in circles and posting their fears and the fear of even mentioning let alone using EP's with their spouse, I feel sick for them cuz I know it doesn't have to be that way for them.


I think at the end of the day that the unfaithful spouse has to adopt their own EP's as deciding that is who they are.

I'll never have another affair because my EP's keep me safe from my worst self. I've talked to my daughter and her very serious boyfriend about all of this (he's taken to it like a duck to water -- "hey, you told me not to let anyone get near her!) They know about the affair.

I'll talk to my boys in due time.

I don't for one second believe that poor boundaries cause affairs.

I do believe that poor boundaries allow affairs.

Don't ever allow yourself to be in a position where an affair is an option and you won't have and affair, regardless of how incredibly miserable you are. You can be incredibly miserable for decades ( I KNOW) without having an affair.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Then it gets a bit better. And then a bit better again until one day you wake up and life is good. That day was 2-3yrs. ago, for me. I believe in recovery, I wish everyone who wanted a chance at R got it and recovered their M despite how painful it is. I look back over the first years of R and I can't believe we made it. I also can't dwell on that time cuz it's that painful. At this time thinking about it, d-day was instant death, recovery was like a slow death. Until it got better.


Dwelling on painful times is, well, painful.

I have a whole bunch of stuff from which to recover, and after about a billion hours of therapy I developed a highly sophisticated, color coded balloon system.

Sadly, I haven't seen a better approach.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
For us, we didn't know intuitively how to recover from this A. But, we had a recipe (MB) to follow and it got us through. A huge part of that recipe included using EP's. I would never have known how to articulate or ask for such precautions without sounding needy and whiny and my H wouldn't have known how to help alleviate my fears. That was his concern, knowing what to do. I wrote some other stuff on this thread about EP's so I'm not going to repeat it, this whole post is long enough.


I think EP's are extremely important.

I wrote on the EP thread a year or so ago about how some EP's are immediate, some EP's are internal and some EP's are for life.

For example, making sure my husband knew where I was and monitoring my communication (OUCH) for a while was an immediate EP meant to alleviate his fears in the first few months. Being proactive about dealing with my depression is an internal EP, and not having OS friendships is for life.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Is autonomy lost, sure, and it's heavier on the WS side for a period of time. That changes as the M is rebuilt. The question is whether or not the investment is worth the change in mindset and lifestyle and it goes for both spouses.


It was not my experience that it went for both spouses. I'm 100% clear that nothing in his life changed. He still travels for work every other week and had since 2006. He still hunts through the winter months at his lease. He still places a huge priority on skiing.

It has not been my experience that that changes as the marriage is rebuilt.

You know the only thing that has changed Vitt? The ONLY thing that changed? He stopped blowing up at me.

That is it. And it actually happened last March 9 at my father's 86th birthday party and if you missed the posts on that, since deleted, that SUCKED.

It won the "This sucks for 2013 Family Situation Award".

I'm kind of proud.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #323103
11/12/13 01:57 PM
11/12/13 01:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
Member
herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
Quote:
I wrote on the EP thread a year or so ago about how some EP's are immediate, some EP's are internal and some EP's are for life.

For example, making sure my husband knew where I was and monitoring my communication (OUCH) for a while was an immediate EP meant to alleviate his fears in the first few months. Being proactive about dealing with my depression is an internal EP, and not having OS friendships is for life.


I think this is brilliant. And wise and logical. And that really is why the whole "don't sing in the choir ever again" thing was so....weird to me. And, in my own situation, "make yourself fat, depressed and unhealthy because you were thin when you cheated" thing makes absolutely no sense to me either.

Living in the BALANCE is the hardest thing and most scary thing in life. Micromanagerial legalism is easy because, well, basically you don't have to worry about a prisoner in chains escaping. The cut and run approach is easy because you can just walk way AND convince yourself that you were perfect and you just had a "bad picker."

The hardest thing to do is learn to live in a way that BOTH spouses can have a romantic, safe, and fulfilling marriage even if one of the spouses really screwed up in the past. And let's just be honest....this third option is not REALLY what some people want.

I wanted to add this:

When it comes to recovery from an A (whether it be personally or martially), I no longer believe it has anything to do with "can't." Human beings are capable of accomplishing unimaginable things in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. I do not believe in can't. I believe in won't. If a marriage is limping along years later where spouses are perpetually either punishing or being punished, it is because that is what they are allowing, choosing, and/or wanting. A WS who WANTS to become faithful can. A BH who WANTS to forgive and let go of the past (notice I did not say forget, I said let go)can. A couple who WANTS to move forward is fully able to do so. If someone is still periodically polygraphing and keylogging their FWS spouse who has been faithful and transparent for years....it is because they WANT to. If a FWS is still cowering around corners while their BS uses the long past A as a club, it is because they are choosing to stay there. And because the BS LIKES that club.

We choose what we do, and when we want something - truly want something - we move heaven and earth to get it, and if we can't, we move on. Once a couple has been honest, there is remorse (which yes, I DO think is necessary), EP's in the categories LG described have been implemented, and new patterns have formed....there is only one reason for a FWS too keep cowering and a BS to keep playing the A trump card:

One or both of them wants it that way. If I were a BS or FWS in that kind of marriage, I'd be looking in the mirror to see which part of it I was choosing and why.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 11/12/13 02:08 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323123
11/12/13 04:22 PM
11/12/13 04:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121
S
SmilingWife Offline
Global Moderator
SmilingWife  Offline
Global Moderator
S
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,121


Lady Grey said, I have zero doubt that my husband has cheated on me. He is too beautiful and too powerful and too rich and ran in a crowd that was very entitled for a very long time with lots of women provided on private planes, etc.

I don't want to know.

If anyone told me I would be FURIOUS.

That has not one thing to do with my life. >>>

This is one of the saddest things I have ever read from you. It does not fit my idea of the sort of person you are.

One of my goals in life is to be authentic and in turn I want those closest to me to be authentic. It is the reason I could not continue my marriage because it became painfully clear he had lived a double life to the extent that he didn't even know who he was.

I guess if you and I were friends IRL I would be aware that you don't want to know that your husband has cheated on you.....but I don't know how I could have knowledge of such a betrayal and not tell.

My question to you is if you are so positive that he has been unfaithful to you why would you be furious if someone told you?

Last edited by SmilingWife; 11/12/13 04:22 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: SmilingWife] #323125
11/12/13 04:29 PM
11/12/13 04:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 13,424
midwest
Miranda Offline
Global Moderator
Miranda  Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 13,424
midwest
I imagine it is because she doesn't feel like it is any of her business. She's just not invested in his sex life. It doesn't matter to her. Sort of like my husband doesn't really care how I format my documents in word.

I get that, if it is indeed how she feels. I pretty much feel that way too. The only difference for me is that I insist that I not ever be lied to. Do what you will, but don't lie to me to do it.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Miranda] #323161
11/12/13 08:23 PM
11/12/13 08:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,052
holdingontoit Offline
Global Moderator
holdingontoit  Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,052
I would think it is more along the lines of not wanting to be put in a position where a response is expected, when you would rather ignore the whole thing. For LdG, she is now put in a position of trying to decide how to respond. "I always suspected, that you for confirming it," said with a smile, and then changing the topic, would seem odd. Now LdG has to figure out a response that will make sense to the "informer". The informer cannot possibly know the entire backstory, because if they did, they would know that LdG did not want to be presented with this disclosure. So now LdG feels obliged to decide how much of the backstory to disclose. That is long and complex and not flattering to either LdG or her husband. All the while LdG is thinking "remind me again why I speak to you at all". Which isn't fair to the other person. Since LdG can understand why someone ignorant of her situation might feel compelled to disclose what they know. But understanding is not the same as agreeing.

All this inner conflict and annoyance and feelings of obligation to be civil while you are inwardly seething and I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO FEEL ANY OF THIS IF YOU WOULD HAVE JUST KEPT YOUR BIG MOUTH SHUT AND LEFT ME ALONE!

Does that explain why someone might be furious?


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: holdingontoit] #323170
11/12/13 09:06 PM
11/12/13 09:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
Member
herfuturesbright  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
I would want to know BUT I completely understand lg too. And I gotta say, if someone KNEW I didn't want to know and told me anyway I would be royally peeved at their gall to impose THEIR mores on MY life.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 11/12/13 09:12 PM.
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Chrysalis, Fiddler 

Newest Members
Love_Smacked, starfire, JoyfulMimi, bruers, shattered72
2048 Registered Users
Latest Topics(Posts)
Hearts Blessing4
Woman urges NC lawmakers to end child marriage: For her it was a ‘life sentence’3
63 Marriage Facts1
COVID-19 and the Increased Likelihood of Affairs3
Updates Divorce Stats4
no more rainbow members?9
BR - The Art of War - Sun Tzu5
Questions & Answers About Marriage---responses from 7-10 year old kids4
seeing new members on mobile version5
Return of the Goddess31
Community Information
2048Members
1Penalty Box
6Suspended

42

Forums
8500Topics
463377Posts
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.028s Queries: 14 (0.006s) Memory: 3.4500 MB (Peak: 3.8920 MB) Zlib enabled in php.ini Server Time: 2021-10-28 01:45:36 UTC