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Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) #51633
01/15/11 05:41 PM
01/15/11 05:41 PM
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OurHouse Offline OP
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I copied these from Flick's blog for Belle in another forum. Believer thought they could be helpful here. Please feel free to post comments/additions/suggestions.

And thank you Flick, for posting these on your blog.

Extraordinary Precautions:

a) I am responsible to protect my wife at all times.
b) I will give full access of all my business records to my wife.
c) I will agree to give all passwords, account codes business and personal to my wife.
d) I will not put myself in an advice giver role with another woman, unless my wife is present and has given her prior approval.
e) I will defer to my wife as the advice giver when it involves another woman, unless she specifically calls on me.
f) I will not spend any time alone with another woman with out the approval of my wife.
g) I will not share my problems or concerns with another woman.
h) I will not share my infirmities with another woman.
i) I will openly share my daily schedule with my wife.
j) At any time she requests, I will trade cell phones with my wife for the time she deems necessary.
k) I will allow only men to provide individual counselling
l) I will always defer to my wife regarding any outside activity and will agree to eliminate any activity she feels is interfering in our relationship or the relationships of our children.
m) I will not travel out of town for business or personal reasons without making frequent contact with my wife AND her enthusiastic agreement.
n) When travelling without my wife, or a member of the church, I must stay at least 100 kilometres away from OW place of residence.
o) I will not go to the store where the OW and I used to work without my wife
p) If the OW makes contact with me I will immediately inform my wife and show her all text messages, emails etc.
q) If I start to have feelings for another woman, despite these precautions, I will immediately tell my wife.
r) I will return home after work and not stop off to visit people on the way home.
s) I will not install or operate messaging type programmes on the computer in my radio shack.
t) If at any time my wife desires it, I will enable GPS tracking of my cell phone.




Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #51657
01/15/11 06:52 PM
01/15/11 06:52 PM
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These are good. Also DH and I have an agreement that we will both be enthusiastic about each other's FB friends. No old flames, and if he feels uncomfortable about a friend, I will remove them.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #52706
01/17/11 03:20 PM
01/17/11 03:20 PM
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Almost two years ago, I shared this or a similar list with my FWH. He immediately used this list to create his own EPs. Thank the good Lord, that he believes in them and continues to abide by them.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: GoldenYears] #54732
01/20/11 06:41 AM
01/20/11 06:41 AM
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Lil Offline

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Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
Extraordinary Precautions to Avoid A Former Lover

To help you totally separate from your lover, and avoid the temptation to see him when you crave him the most, I suggest the following extraordinary precautions:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage.

Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

If you think your husband may divorce you or become violent when you are honest with him, I encourage you to be honest anyway, before you begin your plan for reconciliation. If he cannot accept the truth, no plan of reconciliation will work.

2. Account for Your Time.

Once you have established a willingness to be completely honest with your husband, then continue to be honest with him about all of your activities. Make sure he knows about everything you do throughout the day. Give him a complete schedule of your activities, and let him know which of those activities make you most tempted to contact your former lover. Try to avoid people and places that increase your craving to be with him.

3. Spend As Much of Your Time with Your Husband as Possible.

During withdrawal, there is not much your husband can do to deposit love units into your Love Bank. But it still makes sense for you to be together as much as possible. That's because the more you are with him, the less you will be tempted to contact your lover. Try to have lunch together, talk on the telephone several times a day, and be sure to spend evenings and weekends together.

In many cases, I have suggested that a husband and wife go on a three-week vacation together during the first few weeks of withdrawal, just to help the wayward spouse avoid contacting the former lover. I tell these couples not to expect too many love units to be deposited, but by getting away from the reminders of the lover, they find that such a vacation greatly reduces the time it takes for withdrawal. Besides, the distractions of a vacation can often compensate for the depression that accompanies withdrawal, and makes the experience much less painful.

Sometimes a wayward spouse feels like getting away from everyone during withdrawal, and going on the vacation alone. But it doesn't work. It's too tempting to call the lover, and in many cases the lover ends up joining the wayward spouse.

If you go with your husband on this vacation, you will not feel like being very romantic with him. He should expect very little from you, because you will be recovering from your addiction to your lover. It's only after the craving for your lover subsides, and your depression lifts that you will be able to give your husband the opportunity to deposit all the love units it takes for you to be in love with him again.

Of course, your husband must be very careful to avoid making matters worse by saying and doing anything that would upset you. Granted, he may not be very happy about your affair, but if he wants you to love him again, he must avoid withdrawing love units at all costs. He must be with you as much as possible, yet avoid anger, disrespect and demands, which are all Love Busters. He must also be careful to take your feelings into account whenever you make decisions.

If you slip, and contact your lover in spite of the extraordinary precautions you take, tell you husband about it immediately. Then, improve your extraordinary precautions to include the condition that caused the slip. Keep improving them until it becomes virtually impossible for you to contact your lover. A slip will set you back emotionally, but it does not mean that your recovery plan has been ruined. It simply needs an upgrade.

In many cases, I have encouraged couples to relocate to a different part of the country to avoid contact with a lover. It's a good example of an extraordinary precaution upgrade, when it became apparent that contact with a lover could not be avoided when living in the same city. It goes without saying that when lovers are fellow employees, a job change is absolutely essential to marital recovery. How is total separation from a former lover possible when you work together?

You asked if you should avoid using the internet, since it reminds you of your lover, and tempts you to contact him. I'm sure you can anticipate my answer. I suggest that you stay away from the internet until you are through withdrawal, and you have restored your love to your husband again. Then, I think it would be safe for you to return to it again.


Original article here


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #105686
05/13/11 10:39 PM
05/13/11 10:39 PM
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Flick Offline
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It has been some time since this topic was started and I thought it was time it got a bump to the top of the pile again.

EP's are a great tool for preserving your marriage, or to help rebuild it.

They are not a golden bullet that will guarantee instant success. Like all of the tools that are available to improve your marriage, this one works best in combination with others. A tradesman's tool box always contains more than one tool and it is the same with marriage tools.

So how do you prepare your own list of EPs??

Simple answer, you sit down and figure out what you need to do, or not do, to make your spouse feel completely safe in your marriage. If you have been doing a disappearing act, and been unable to sufficiently account for your time you could have an EP that says you will always be contactable. You could also have one that says you will carry a GPS type thing that will show where you are at all times.
The EPs do not all need to be so draconian.
In my case one of the EPs simply involved not going to a particular shop without my wife, not a big hardship.

Now it has just occurred to me that the meaning of Extraordinary Precautions may not be as clear as it could be. The word extraordinary is not (in my mind) a single word, it is two words EXTRA ORDINARY.
So the extra ordinary precautions are precautions that are EXTRA to the ORDINARY or to put it another way they are beyond being ordinary, that means they are special.

Finally I want to say that the EPs can be changed. As you get further and further into your new recovered marriage and circumstances change then the EPs can change. They can be removed, added to, relaxed or strengthened.
Yes they can seem like you are being grounded or restricted because of bad behaviour, and if you are being honest then that is exactly what is happening, but it is all for the best.


Been there, done that, wish I'd just stayed home.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Flick] #107220
05/17/11 05:18 PM
05/17/11 05:18 PM
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It's good to remember that you need to revisit these things as you get to different stages within recovery!

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Flick] #107414
05/17/11 10:23 PM
05/17/11 10:23 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: Flick

Yes they can seem like you are being grounded or restricted because of bad behaviour, and if you are being honest then that is exactly what is happening, but it is all for the best.


Nice to see someone call a spade a spade. Of COURSE some EP's are a mechanism for punishment and control. First time I have seen any one admit it though.

I'm curious what "for the best" means - who's best?


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107455
05/17/11 11:33 PM
05/17/11 11:33 PM
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silentlucidity Offline
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Quote:
who's best?


I would think it's best not for a WHO but for a WHAT...the marriage.

I have EP's. I have never cheated, but having been in a marriage where infidelity existed, it makes sense to me not to hedge my bets and err on the safe side. That's me. My fiance agrees, to an extent, and has seen how not having EPs causes our relationship harm, causes me harm, causes him harm.

My experience only. Learning from my own mistakes. EPs, to me, are about me caring for myself, and my SO...both, not one or the other. It's not about being caged, it's about protecting what I cherish. There are EPs I have in place that I don't even talk about. I just DO them.

If YOU are making your own list, who is punishing you?

Last edited by silentlucidity; 05/17/11 11:43 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #107523
05/18/11 02:31 AM
05/18/11 02:31 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
Quote:
who's best?


I would think it's best not for a WHO but for a WHAT...the marriage.

I have EP's. I have never cheated, but having been in a marriage where infidelity existed, it makes sense to me not to hedge my bets and err on the safe side. That's me. My fiance agrees, to an extent, and has seen how not having EPs causes our relationship harm, causes me harm, causes him harm.

My experience only. Learning from my own mistakes. EPs, to me, are about me caring for myself, and my SO...both, not one or the other. It's not about being caged, it's about protecting what I cherish. There are EPs I have in place that I don't even talk about. I just DO them.

If YOU are making your own list, who is punishing you?


I like the theory.

The fact is that EP's are routinely thrust upon the unfaithful spouse as a threat.

Fact and theory collide.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107544
05/18/11 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The fact is that EP's are routinely thrust upon the unfaithful spouse as a threat


At Marriage Advocates?

It's a theory in practice in my life.
We each have our own perspective.

I can't see how EPs could be used against me, if I'm the one who made the list, freely, choosing what to do to protect. These are MY choices. If one is coerced and somehow forced into EPs, I can't see how they have a chance to last. IMO, the person making the list has to care to protect themselves and their spouse.

Anything done half-heartedly will eventually fail, from my experience.






Last edited by silentlucidity; 05/18/11 03:00 AM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #107563
05/18/11 03:25 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The fact is that EP's are routinely thrust upon the unfaithful spouse as a threat


At Marriage Advocates?

It's a theory in practice in my life.
We each have our own perspective.

I can't see how EPs could be used against me, if I'm the one who made the list, freely, choosing what to do to protect. These are MY choices. If one is coerced and somehow forced into EPs, I can't see how they have a chance to last. IMO, the person making the list has to care to protect themselves and their spouse.

Anything done half-heartedly will eventually fail, from my experience.


I'm getting seriously annoyed with the disingenuous press that now it is Marriage Advocates, and all the stuff that came before goes "poof" so if someone brings up a concept that was shoved down our throats, well, didn't happen here, so what are you so twisted up about?

It is its own sort of gas lighting -- you KNOW what I am saying, but you gloss over it because it serves some purpose, for you, for the site, or who knows what.

Either that or I am nuts, and in typing that I started crying. Because maybe I am.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107584
05/18/11 04:26 AM
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LivingWell Offline
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I don't think you're nuts, LadyG. hug

I would like for anyone who needs to deal with anything affair-related to be able to do so......no matter what it is.

But when dealing with the aftermath of what I think is atrocious behavior from those at other sites, I would like to see it stated as such so that those who are not familiar with the other site(s) do not think that it happened here at MA.

My personal opinion is that there are posters here (not you, of course) who are intentionally trying to be confusing.....as opposed to being confused themselves.....so that others will think that MA was the cause instead of the the place where people are finding recovery and healing.

The only way I can think of to thwart those efforts is for it to be clearly stated that it didn't originate here even if we don't name the site(s) in which it did originate.

LadyG, I hope that you continue posting about these issues......so that you, and others who will come later from that other site, will recover in every way that you want to....and in every that you deserve, even if you don't think that you want to. smile


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LivingWell] #107627
05/18/11 08:43 AM
05/18/11 08:43 AM
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Lil Offline

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LadyGrey,

Flick is away for a few days - climbing 1103 steps to raise money for a charity he supports.

I did read out your concerns and comments. He'll reply when he gets back (I hope) In short he says:

"EP are to protect your marriage. I voluntarily gave up certain privileges in order to make my wife feel safe, and want to take the risk of recovery with me. Had I abused a privilege such as alcohol, medication, or the internet (porn) I would expect that until such time as I either proved I wouldn't abuse those privileges, or POJA'd WITH my DW for their restoration, that I would lose the right to them. Different addiction, same outcome."

As far as <place that will not be named> and EP's being given out as a form of punishment there, possibly. Frankly, I didn't need to punish my DH, he did a pretty good job of doing it himself. As time has gone on, I have noted he still does from time to time. Personally, as a FBW I am more interested in having a wonderful and recovered marriage, than a grovelling whipping boy under my thumb.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #107638
05/18/11 11:34 AM
05/18/11 11:34 AM
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
My EP's are still EP's. The things I did strictly out of panicked guilt or because someone legalistic told me to have fallen by the wayside. And I don't feel one bit badly about that. Just like my faith. I still believe in Jesus Christ, but I do have an occasional Margarita and my DD will be allowed to go to the prom.

It's actually a very very very fitting parallel in many ways. Because just like all the "rational" Christians I know are fine with that or at least know it's none of their business.....so are the "rational" marriage people. smile

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #107655
05/18/11 12:47 PM
05/18/11 12:47 PM
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OurHouse Offline OP
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I don't see EPs as a threat. I think at (the other place), they were portrayed as such...but once again, I think Harley's words were taken out of context there.

I see EPs as something the couple embraces in their marriage as a sign of respect for the marriage and the other partner. And I believe it goes both ways. I never cheated, but that doesn't mean I can disappear for hours on end and not tell my husband where I am...common courtesy dictates I let him know when I've been held up somewhere, or if plans change suddenly.

EPs should exist as part of any marriage, as a couple's investment in the marriage. The difference is that, when one spouse cheats, the other one doesn't feel safe for a time; there's a lack of trust and a fear it will happen again. So if the cheating spouse truly wants to make a go of it, he/she will allow the betrayed spouse to set the parameters for EPs. And those EPs should be things that help the BS feel safe in the marriage, NOT a hammer to swing over the WS' head.

LdG, it might be different in your marriage, but perhaps it is time to sit down with your husband and try to work out some POJA on this? Define how each of you perceives EPs and determine that each of you want to protect the marriage, and work from there?

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #107675
05/18/11 01:17 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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To be clear, my husband was uninterested in the concept of EPs. The two that I have are self imposed and I'm comfortable with them.

I don't view voluntary giving him my whereabouts or access to phone & email as EP's. To me, that's just being polite.

I was simply observing that I have seen EP's suggested that are to my mind clearly punitive in nature, like, for example, a post nuptial which I qillexplain when I get to that topic.

EPs are not a personal issue though.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/18/11 04:34 PM. Reason: I can't type on a phone.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107734
05/18/11 03:18 PM
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LadyGrey, I was serious about my question. If this is happening at Marriage Advocates, if EPs are being forced upon the unfaithful spouse, how is that going to work, in the end? I would love to go to those posts and point out how this tactic will fail the marriage, in the end.

I don't understand what seems like your hostility against a concept that you openly state YOU instituted in your marriage. I've seen you state over and over again how YOU chose them, yet you seem angry that others may choose to do it. I'm confused, is all.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #107768
05/18/11 04:20 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
LadyGrey, I was serious about my question. If this is happening at Marriage Advocates, if EPs are being forced upon the unfaithful spouse, how is that going to work, in the end? I would love to go to those posts and point out how this tactic will fail the marriage, in the end.


I have not seen that, nor have I seen a marriage recovered to the point that EP's become an issue.

As far as I know, at this time this is a theoretical discussion on MA. I anticipate that the list will be approximately the same.

Quote:
I don't understand what seems like your hostility against a concept that you openly state YOU instituted in your marriage. I've seen you state over and over again how YOU chose them, yet you seem angry that others may choose to do it. I'm confused, is all.


I can see how that could be confusing.

I am not hostile to the concept of consensual as opposed to coercive EPs. If someone is freely choosing a course of action, that is one thing. If they are coerced, badgered or emotionally blackmailed, that pisses me off.

So those things I choose to do fall into a different category in my mind than coercive, controlling behavior which can take many forms where the proferred tool is used to induce feelings of guilt and anxiety.

When you are playing a man down, you can't lose sight of the importance of defending your goal.

A hammer can drive a nail or bludgeon someone to death. The hammer is still a good tool to have.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/18/11 04:30 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #107798
05/18/11 05:18 PM
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Thanks for clearing that up, LadyGrey.

Quote:
If they are coerced, badgered or emotionally blackmailed, that pisses me off.


Even when we do choose something to help our marriage, our spouse, ourselves, it may not stick; coercion increases the likelihood of failure.

Quote:
controlling behavior which can take many forms where the proferred tool is used to induce feelings of guilt and anxiety.


For me, the more I did to try to change, the more distant my xh became. I have wondered if his guilt was eating him alive, and I was making things worse by trying so hard. I will never know, and I'm merely speculating, but the guilt served to harm us, not help. I don't know how to alleviate someone else's guilt, other than by not adding to it.



Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: silentlucidity] #108168
05/19/11 12:50 PM
05/19/11 12:50 PM
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I think EP's are brilliant.

After infidelity is discovered or confessed, both parties are whirling as to how to fix this, how do we get to where we want to be. A BS has absolutely no faith in what a WS says they will do and the WS realizes this. EP's offer actions, they are visible and measurable, things that a BS is more likely to see as a genuine attempt at protecting the M and the BS.

"I'm sorry, I won't hurt you again." ...... doesn't cut it in the case of adultery.
Protecting the BS and the M from further damage is critical in rebuilding a new and stronger M. EP's can help to do just that.

To a BS they offer a sense of willingness from the WS to do their part in protecting the M from further damage.
To a WS they offer a plan as to how they can do that.

EP's fall into requirements for R ..... NC with the AP and putting conditions in place to ensure this NC like changing cell phone #'s, email accounts.
Transparency/ honesty and eliminating independent behaviour are mandatory since the lack of these allowed the A to happen.

EP's are both common and specific. Common as in what I mentioned above and specific as to places or people that lent a hand for the A to begin and continue.
We added to our list that certain geographical areas are out of bounds unless we are with each other and there is a friend of my H's that he does not travel with alone.
Although my H wanted R, early on in this process he did see some of the EP's as punishment. His independent lifestyle was being infringed upon and he didn't like it.
As R progressed, his attitude shifted from his perception of loss to one of this is best for the M, best for Vitt, and the M outweighs my restrictions.
I know this cuz we've talked about it.

If the goal of the WS is R, EP's are viewed as a gesture towards R, part of making amends for the damage done and steps toward rebuilding the M.
Setting EPs out as requirements for R is essential for both spouses wanting R, I don't see it as coercive at all and I've never read about it anywhere as such. If my H would not have agreed to enforcing EP's, I would have been crazy out of mind about a continued A or a new one forming.

Like SL pointed out that she has her own EP's, so do I.

*edited to clarify more of what I meant in one sentence above*













26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #108174
05/19/11 01:05 PM
05/19/11 01:05 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: LdG
If they are coerced, badgered or emotionally blackmailed, that pisses me off.

This sounds like you have actually witnessed this, otherwise since you have adopted some EP's of your own what reason would you have to even mention this.

I strongly believe in EP's as a means of helping a BS to feel safe in a very unsafe situation. I believe they make a huge difference in recovering a M from adultery.

I'd really hate to think that a WS reading this thread would get the impression that EP's are not essential or helpful to R.
LdG, if you could provide some examples where you've seen this happen, we could then figure out how those EP's could be presented in a better fashion.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #108191
05/19/11 02:39 PM
05/19/11 02:39 PM
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Let's back up and look at EPs in a different light for a minute.

The term Extraordinary Precautions suggests two things at its root if we separate it from infidelity and our personal experiences. It appears to be something beyond ordinary, that is, more than what is typical, "normal" or considered standard by most. It also suggests measures being taken as a form of protection from something.

Since I seem to be full of analogies, I of course have one for this...

When the average automobile traveled across the roadways at speeds approaching 15 miles per hour, accidents were rare. Yet in the year that Ohio had two paved roadways that intersected at one point and there were two cars owned and operated by residents of the state, those two cars collided at that intersection. Neither driver was seriously injured and since cars in those days cost hundreds of dollars rather than thousands, the monetary cost was minimal by today's standards.

As speeds increased and racing began to push the limits of both the drivers and the machines, accidents became more common and injury or death became a very real possibility. At first simple helmets were used and soon became mandatory in various forms of racing. The speeds continued to increase and injury became more likely in an accident and soon people were being ejected from their cars at fairly high rates of speed. The helmet was no longer sufficient to protect the drivers and so before long seat belts became common practice.

Today, in our average street cars, we have seat belts, crumple zones that absorb the energy of a crash and things like air bags to protect the driver from impacts against the steering column in the event of a crash. At just 55 MPH into a solid obstruction with little to no yield of its own, the force on the driver is about equal to launching yourself off of an eight story building and landing face first on the pavement below, about 8 Gs.

Now back to those race cars...

Even with efforts to slow them down by limiting engine displacement, intake area, down-force and the like, speeds at Indianapolis are likely to be around 200 MPH or higher. Because of the way these cars are designed, the drivers will not lift from the gas pedal in the corners and will be running wide open throttle all the way around the track. Any reduction in speed will be simply the result of tire slip angle as the cars go through the corners. Seat belts won't help much when you hit the wall at 230 miles per hour.

So helmets and seat belts have become custom molded racing seats, carbon fiber tubs meant to prevent penetration into the driver compartment, helmets that will withstand a 20mm round at 100 yards with little more damage than scuffing the finish. All of these things have evolved over time and the record shows that as more safety precautions have come to pass, safety for race car drivers has improved and seldom does a driver die any more and accidents that seem impossible to survive actually result in the driver walking away under his own power once the pieces stop flying and what's left of the car has stopped careening along the pavement.

For years, a device was available that prevented the driver's head from leaving his body or snapping his neck in a head on crash. Remember that 8 Gs from a 55 MPH crash? At 190 MPH the head of a driver inside its 6 pound helmet can weigh several thousand pounds for an instant as the car thuds to a stop. This is what killed Dale Earnhardt at Daytona a few years ago.

Suddenly, everyone was talking about the HANS (Head and Neck Support) device. As safe as cars had been to race for so many years, that one instance of all events leading to a single crash showed the drivers, the sanctioning bodies, the designers, owners and everyone involved that something more was required. The HANS device was available the day DE died. In fact, some of the drivers in the race and at least one involved in the crash that took his life were wearing the device.

Drivers knew of the HANS device before it became mandatory. Most tried it. They found it to be too restrictive. It limited their ability to rotate their head to see what was around them, made it harder to enter and exit the car, took longer to get strapped in and longer to get out in case of a fire, which is the biggest fear for most drivers, being trapped with no way to get out as the car turns into an inferno. Today, they have no choice. The device is mandated in most forms of racing where speeds exceed about 140 MPH.

Other things have been done as well since that day in Daytona. The concrete and steel walls at most high speed tracks have been replaced by a double wall with blocks of foam in between to absorb the energy of the impact when a car hits the barrier. This causes the energy to be expended in crushing the foam instead of being transmitted to the driver. Deceleration occurs over a longer period of time and so the force delivered to the driver is reduced.

For years, few people wore seat belts when they drove on the streets. Too restrictive, they would say. Or they had stories to relate in which people they knew or more likely FoaFs (friend of a friend) would have died if they had been wearing one. Even now, many refuse to wear them. They are uncomfortable for most, take time to fool with when in a hurry and are a general pain in the butt...

And they save hundreds of lives every year.

As weaknesses in the safety equipment have been exposed, usually by way of a serious accident that left someone seriously injured, disabled or dead, racing has become safer than ever before because safety measures beyond the typical, normal, day to day safety equipment used in cars for the street have been put into place. Accidents seldom result in injury or death but even now racing is a dangerous sport. Most people can't drive 230 MPH and so never get the chance. For those who do it for a living, its the extraordinary precautions that keep them alive.

Once we know of a weakness in our own safety precautions we have to face the fact that we need to enact something more to keep us safe. For drivers, all the things available for protection do them no good unless they use them. The driver pulls his belts tight. He buckles his helmet into place. He wears several layers of fire retardant clothing including extra socks, long underwear, gloves and a hood inside a car where temperatures in mid-summer can approach 150 degrees F. It's uncomfortable, annoying, slows you down and is a real pain in the butt...

It isn't just marriages wracked by an affair that need EPs. We all need to put them into place in our every day lives. Most people might be able to go to work every day and not end up sleeping with their secretary. If a guy sleeps with his secretary, the typical protocols to prevent that clearly aren't enough. In order to prevent himself from crossing that line, he might need to do more than what the average guy would do. He needs to do something extraordinary.

EPs aren't things imposed upon us by our spouse. Those are restrictions and while right after an affair has been divulged some of that is going to happen, that isn't what EPs are about. EPs are not ways we give our spouse to control us, they are ways we return the control to ourselves. They are things we do beyond what our friends are doing in order to prevent us from crossing that line. They need to be based on identified weaknesses and must eliminate or protect against situations in which those weaknesses are exposed.

Frank Pittman talks about driving along in his vintage Jaguar. It pulls to the left a bit, but all it requires to overcome is a gentle resting of the hand on the wheel. Relaxing that grip or losing sight of having to keep that hand in place could result in finding himself in oncoming traffic with deadly results for himself or others. Losing concentration is all that it takes to have an accident and when we lose sight of our own limitations, weaknesses and fail to identify changes in those things we can accidentally rip our family apart.

Last week in our little hamlet, a mother was on her way home with two of her children. One, a 7 month old was strapped into a car seat in the center of the SUV. Her 4 year old was strapped into a booster in the back seat of the vehicle. She was less than 4 blocks from home when she lost concentration for a moment. She might have been distracted by the kids or the radio or something else in her life. She was wearing her seat belt. She had air bags. She was driving one of the safer vehicles available today. When she turned in front of the tractor trailer headed East bound on US 6, the impact crushed her SUV against a light pole as if it were an empty beer can being stomped on by a 240 pound linebacker.

Neighbors rescued her children from the car before EMS even got there. One of them described making eye contact with her in the rear view mirror, covering her child's eyes with his hand and watching her breath her last breath. The paper said she died instantly. It was really more like a minute or two after the crash. She was using all the typical, normal, day to day safety equipment available to everyone. She just forgot to see if anyone was coming before trying top make a left turn.

The stop light where it happened has been there less than two years. When her house was built, it was out in the country. Today it is surrounded by businesses, schools, many more houses and probably 100 times the traffic. What was once safe enough just doesn't work any more.

Sometimes typical and normal precautions are not enough. Sometimes we have to do more than what everyone else does (if everyone else is jumping off the roof, does that mean you should?) Once we know where our limitations and weaknesses are, it is the extra stuff we do beyond what everyone else does that keeps us from having that accident.

If you drive 200 MPH you need more than seat belts and air bags to stay safe. If your situation places you at risk in ways others are not, you need to do things they might never have to consider. The reality is, most of them will have a wreck one day themselves. Accidents don't require choices to occur, simply momentary lapses in concentration and it doesn't even have to be your own lapse. Once you identify a weakness you need to protect it, just like you might protect a sore arm or leg.

Mark


mark1952.ma@gmail.com

I Was Thinking...

The secret to having a good marriage is to understand that marriage must be total, it must be permanent, and it must be equal.-- Frank Pittman
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mark1952] #108234
05/19/11 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I'd really hate to think that a WS reading this thread would get the impression that EP's are not essential or helpful to R.


I certainly didn't mean to suggest this -- I believe EP's are essential for both spouses, and different EP's serve each spouse.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
LdG, if you could provide some examples where you've seen this happen


My life.

Quote:
we could then figure out how those EP's could be presented in a better fashion.


I think this is the challenge. Certainly, for me I had a hard time getting past the punitive tone. VERY hard time. I also had a hard time getting past the idea that my autonomy was going to be restricted. VERY hard time.

Once I understood that I was making the choice to do things differently in the future, I was able to embrace the concept -- I was pre-deciding how I was going to handle certain fact patterns before they ever came up.

So, for example, one of MY EP's is that I will not be alone with a member of the opposite sex within a certain age range, period, not even a 5 minute car ride. When a fact pattern presented that had that element, I had already decided how to handle it and declined to participate. There was no decision tree -- or, more accurately, the tree had one branch, and that was "no".

I love my EP's -- all two of them -- because they keep my husband, my marriage, and myself safe from my own worst self.

However, my husband doesn't like the "never be alone with a member of the opposite sex" EP, and got pretty upset when I told him about it. My IC and I worked out that he felt threatened by it -- that he sees it as I have so little self control and respect for him that I have to go to extremes to keep myself from hooking up.

So you see, they can be misinterpreted or misunderstood. It was not my intent to harm my husband by adopting that EP -- it was my intent to make him feel safe and keep us safe -- yet he was frightened by it.

Part of my problem as I sit here today is that I went a little overboard on the making him feel safe thing. It may be that the sacrifices I have made over the last 10 months -- and make no mistake, I feel them as sacrifices -- will inure to our benefit over the long term as they created a safe space in which my husband can heal. I may look back and think "wow, that REALLY sucked, but boy am I glad I did it." That is my hope.

I do think though that to the extent EP's restrict or eliminate contact with third parties (not the AP of course) that it is incumbent upon the faithful spouse to fill the gap by providing conversation and social interaction, or being open to the unfaithful spouse engaging in activities to find new friends. That has a big issue for me -- I ended several close friendships in an effort to make him feel safe, and feel somewhat emotionally blackmailed from trying to make new friendships. We don't have couple friends anymore. And I don't make friends easily -- I've always been one who had two or maybe three close friends. It has been very lonely.

That said, our life has been seriously weird for about four years -- hopefully we can approach something resembling normalcy over the next year or so. My big challenge at this point is to make him feel safe when he is traveling as he will begin doing in the next month or so. The only thing I have come up with that I haven't already done is to put ALL of my stuff on my ICal so he can look and say "oh, she's getting her hair cut -- that's why her car is at that address and she isn't answering the phone."

Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Once you identify a weakness you need to protect it, just like you might protect a sore arm or leg.


Exactly. It's like text messaging and driving -- everyone thinks they are the exception as far as I can tell. They think they are better drivers or since they don't do it very often it is safe or they have texted so much they aren't really dividing their attention (remember, I have a 22 and 20 year old so I've heard it all).

A driver who has never had a wreck may just decide not to text and drive. A driver who has had a wreck may need to keep the phone in the back seat or trunk to ensure they don't succumb to the temptation - to indulge in "just this once -- I'm at a red light" thinking. Sure keeping the phone in the trunk might be a pain, but it protects the person and the other drivers from the worst impulses of the texting driver.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 05/19/11 04:31 PM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #108307
05/19/11 06:40 PM
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The EP's that have been suggested to me in places other than MA that had behind them the motive of helping my M were wonderful.

The recent "and yet you display such a wayward mindset....interesting" illuminating remark I received at another site (and yes, I paraphrased)....was not helpful, or appreciated. Not will it be repeated because I will not allow it.

If one would like a WS to learn, then one must learn to be a teacher and not an XXX.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #108392
05/19/11 08:56 PM
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When Flick wrote his Ep's, they were based mainly on those of a FWH from MB. We talked about and tweaked them to suit our situation. For the first 12 months or so we adhered pretty firmly to them. I think I used them as a way of judging just how serious he was about protecting me.

I wrote some EP's for myself and told him. He indicated he not only did not want to see them, he was not interested in them. I did not cheat, ergo I didnt need EP's. I thought the idea was crazy then, still do in fact. While I might not need a written down list, I think it is good for each spouse to have some way of gauging - even subconsciously - that things are not quite right.

BTW I asked Flick the other night if he wanted to see them and he again said no. He even agreed the 100% level of trust he has in me is dangerous. Sometimes I feel somewhat uncared for by that level of disinterest.

Last edited by lildoggie; 05/20/11 01:05 AM. Reason: daughters computer couldnt spell

AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #108506
05/20/11 12:56 AM
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I've been thinking about this subject all afternoon.

I see a distinction between things the unfaithful spouse does in the immediate aftermath of the affair, things that the unfaithful spouse does going forward and things the unfaithful spouse needs to do internally.

The first category includes transparency and accountability giving the faithful spouse the needed data to know the affair is over and no contact is in place and being maintained. I view those as more short term measures presumably at some point the need to be able to account for your time on an hourly basis, be mindful of leaving your cell phone on the kitchen counter or having it with you every minute, GPS tracking, etc. will dissipate. While the unfaithful spouse should be willing to do those things, the need for them should decline over time. Who wants to monitor their spouse's every movement for the rest of their life? And let me assure you, we don't want to be monitored.

I would call those Interim Measures. I have no idea what a reasonable time frame for those measures might be.

The second category includes changes in behavior that the unfaithful spouse commits to for life, like never being alone with a member of the opposite sex. While changes in circumstance might require reevaluating that commitment for example, were I to start practicing law again, I would have to be alone with members of the opposite sex and there is simply no getting around that the presumption would be that the unfaithful spouse will continue with that commitment in the absence of an agreement to the contrary.

I would call those Extraordinary Precautions.

The third category includes things the unfaithful spouse needs to change and heal within themselves. For example, I am guilty of occasional bouts of self-loathing and deep depression, both of which make me more vulnerable to seeking relief in an affair, and make my husband nervous. Part of my commitment is to heal those parts of me so that I am a safer spouse for my husband, and being extra vigilant about my boundaries when I am feeling that way.

I would call those Internal Precautions.

Thought I would throw that out there for the group to chew on.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #108643
05/20/11 11:37 AM
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I think your thoughts there are fab. I'd never thought of maybe having "interim measures", although J didn't get that I need EPs and now that I see your H's reasoning I can see that he may have had the same issue.

Soon after I set out my EPs wish were a mixture of your EPs and interim measures I was helped to realise that I needed internal measures too.

My original EPs did wonders for my self esteem anyway, it felt good being so honest and trustworthy and open after all the deceit.

But actually for recovering a marriage properly it is those internal measures that need special attention and I think a year on these become the most valuable.



Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Squeaky Tree] #109669
05/22/11 10:05 PM
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I haven't had time to get back to this thread, I want to and I will at some point. I think it's a great thread. smile


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #113617
05/30/11 08:34 PM
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I agree that EPs are for everyone based on individual weaknesses.

When we counseled with Steve Harley, he cautioned me to be open to backing off the constant monitoring of email by a year out in recovery. Once we got into a real recovery, I found that at a certain point I was not being served well by too much monitoring. I accepted that I could not control any of my H's behavior but I could begin to control my own.

I think that for the rest of my life I will need passwords and the ability to do random checks. However, I do them rarely and reluctantly now, because obsessing isn't healthy for me.


Chrysalis
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Chrysalis] #113682
05/30/11 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Chrysalis


When we counseled with Steve Harley, he cautioned me to be open to backing off the constant monitoring of email by a year out in recovery.


I think it would be helpful to both spouses to add some time parameters, adaptable to the specifics of the situation. It would be nice to know that there is an end, regardless of when it might be, which of course assume there will be an end when there may very well not be.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #113685
05/30/11 11:09 PM
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There are some precautions that I will have forever. They are just going to be part of my life. Some things I was very militant about, I have relaxed, and not just because I think it has been long enough since 2006. Even H - for a long time - thought some of my "paranoias" were extreme. Legalism has never been one of his favorite things, but in the aftermath of the A it was necessary.

There is a tendency I think, for some personalities, to try to think out every eventuality and guard against every conceivable scenario on the planet. This is how guidelines for modesty, etc. become so extreme in religious circles.

H informed me awhile back that my laptop has no "spyware" stuff on it. I just assumed it did because....I assumed it did. It hasn't changed what I do with my computer.....I haven't suddenly begun visiting porn sites and singing up with 14 aliases on 18 dating sites or camming myself.....

In some ways maybe it is a moot point....but you know, I would think the ideal would be doing the right thing.....because it is the right thing and not because you might get caught.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #130117
07/04/11 01:45 PM
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Came across this on another thread. I think it fits well here, thanks FH for these good thoughts.

Originally Posted By: FH
Until someone is well into Recovery, it would seem to me to be the prudent thing to do to restrict, even eliminate, some activites simply because the Trust Factor takes a long time to reestablish. The thought here is that Trust can be defined in a marital situation as being able to accurately predict what your spouse will, or wont, do in a given situation even if you are not present. Given that infidelity destroyed all trust, and certainly the ability to accurately predict what your spouse would do when you werent around, it seems that permission to go is not necessarily an indication that Trust has been reestablished. It may reflect other things, but usually the Faithful Spouse will endure the solo time away, hoping for the best, but will likely be mentally fixated on the what ifs during the time apart and until such time as the spouse can give believable reassurances that nothing untoward happened.

Its asking a lot for a Wayward Spouse to ask for, or demand, time away to party without the Betrayed Spouse under the auspices of Recovery from Infidelity. To a certain extent, it is a denial of consequences of adultery, despite being forgiven for the act itself.

Ive always thought that Recovery from Infidelity means that there are going to be some things that you used to be able to do that you cannot, or certainly should not, do anymore. Places you cant go, people you cant be with, things you cant watch, etc. In some respects it is part of the no contact package that extends beyond just the affair partner in particular.

When well into Recovery, or when Recovered, there may be more things that can be done "solo," because Trust will have been reestablished.




26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #204990
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bumped for Crush


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #204993
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I see that some Sprint phones are made with a GPS tracker, which costs $10. a month. That way someone can see that you are where you say you are all day.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #248631
07/23/12 03:21 AM
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I have been searching thru my main commputer this morning, and look what I found smile

Lil's Extraordinary Precautions

I will protect my husband at all times
I will practice the MB principals as stated by Dr. Harley
I will share all passwords, and account info with my husband.
I will make my cell phone available to my husband at any time
I will share my private feelings, thoughts, and concerns with my husband
I will share my schedule with my husband and discuss any changes with him.
I will not discuss my personal issues with any man besides my husband unless he gives his consent
I will not help/discuss another mans problems unless my husband gives his consent
I will not be alone with another man unless my husband approves.
I will not go out with another man unless my husband is present.
I will not have a male therapist or personal trainer unless my husband is present or there is an emergency and I am need of immediate assistance.
I will not participate in activities without my husband unless he approves enthusiastically.
I will never have any secrets from my husband - unless its his birthday or Christmas present.
I will not let anybody walk over me I will stand up for myself
I will not accept anything but Openness & Honesty
I will listen to my gut/instincts
I will wake up each morning and make a concentrated effort to be happy






AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #248694
07/23/12 01:24 PM
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Lil, I am printing these out because I love how they protect both M and self. smile

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #248828
07/24/12 01:13 AM
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Write some for yourself and post them here....

I like the idea of EP's for both spouses, and I guess I had some half formed, never set down ones pre A, but written down is best. Easier to refer back to.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #248994
07/24/12 08:00 PM
07/24/12 08:00 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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I wonder if there is a distinction between those actions taken to assure the faithful spouse that the affair is over and those actions taken to protect the marriage from a future affair.

I was thinking back to some things I did in the beginning that I don't do anymore like take my cell phone out of my purse and leave it readily accessible on the kitchen counter or leave my email open at all times.

I see some things -- like never being alone with a man to whom I am not related -- as forever and some things--like texting a picture of a really ugly $1200 shoe to reassure him I was at the mall like I said I was -- are more temporary.

I don't much like the term "extraordinary" precautions as it suggests that they are not necessarily part of an "ordinary" marriage but I'm guessing that the term is fixed.

I suppose I would expect transparency from my husband if I wanted to look at his cell phone or computer, but I certainly don't expect him to not be alone with a woman so for me, mutuality is not required. My husband isn't a fan of the concept though so we have never really talked about it.

I'm rambling -- recreating the spreadsheets is SO tedious.

1. I won't be alone with a member of the opposite sex between the ages of ___ and ____ (whatever works for you).

2. I won't discuss my marriage with a member of the opposite sex.

3. I won't discuss my marriage with anyone unless I have first discussed the matter with my spouse.

4. I won't tolerate anyone at any time bad mouthing my husband.

My break is over.....


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #249177
07/25/12 04:09 PM
07/25/12 04:09 PM
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My pastor used to say that always imagine your spouse was beside you and listening and watching your actions. That worked for me.

I guess my husband was sleeping through those sermons.


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: believer] #249195
07/25/12 06:38 PM
07/25/12 06:38 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: LdG
I don't much like the term "extraordinary" precautions as it suggests that they are not necessarily part of an "ordinary" marriage but I'm guessing that the term is fixed.

One of my H's boundaries which we both discussed and agreed upon was that he would not travel into the area where OW was. Another was that his cell # be changed for NC reasons.

These are not cautionary measures that a couple whose M has not been slammed by infidelity would likely even consider discussing or implementing. That's how I see the word 'extraordinary' fitting into M's affected by infidelity. An added layer of protection against further harm and I see it beneficial for both spouses, not only the BS.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #249292
07/26/12 03:50 AM
07/26/12 03:50 AM
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Ordinary or extraordinary, I dont know if the name really means much beyond driving home the point that we need to do things to protect our marriage.

DH is up the mountain skiing today. its his habit to ring and text me during the day. Nothing special, just rejoicing in a particulary fast run, comments on people he sees, jokes and flirting.

This morning his phone failed to charge on the drive, laving him with 20% battery. He chose to ring me and tell me he would be switching the phone off for the day to preserve it and would ring me when he was on his way home.

He didnt have to do it, I certainly have never asked him to, but I was touched by the thoughtfulness. To be honest, I'm not sure I would have thought to do it myself. So yes in one way he was protecting our marriage by being totally transparent, and in another he was showing he cares for my by keeping me in the loop. Both factors improve our M.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #249323
07/26/12 08:17 AM
07/26/12 08:17 AM
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After band the other night i quite fancied going to the pub with them (some always go, I only tend to go in the hols). I went to phone J to check it was OK (thinking of him wanting to get to bed for work and also because of my history with music involved), one of the guys said "you have to ask him?"

....and I thought, no I don't have to ask him. It must just be that EPs and the thoughtfulness that comes with them and is behind them just becomes part of who you are.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Squeaky Tree] #249373
07/26/12 04:23 PM
07/26/12 04:23 PM
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Surface of the sun
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Quote:
....and I thought, no I don't have to ask him. It must just be that EPs and the thoughtfulness that comes with them and is behind them just becomes part of who you are.


My husband does this, and he has not dealt firsthand with infidelity, but he knows I have. I am ALWAYS grateful to him for the thoughtfulness of it all. ALWAYS. I always know where he is, what he's doing...he sends me photos and texts throughout the day. Yesterday, he picked his son up and went up into the mountains for a quick hike. He sent me pics of his son climbing around on the rocks, just because.

It's not required. I'm not his keeper. He cares. I'll take it. He's actually better at EP's than I am by a small margin. My EPs are what I choose, his are what he chooses. No demands were made.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Squeaky Tree] #249456
07/27/12 02:51 AM
07/27/12 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: Squeaky Tree
After band the other night i quite fancied going to the pub with them (some always go, I only tend to go in the hols). I went to phone J to check it was OK (thinking of him wanting to get to bed for work and also because of my history with music involved), one of the guys said "you have to ask him?"

....and I thought, no I don't have to ask him. It must just be that EPs and the thoughtfulness that comes with them and is behind them just becomes part of who you are.
And who wouldn't want to be married to someone who shows that much consideration?

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #249558
07/27/12 11:15 PM
07/27/12 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
I have been searching thru my main commputer this morning, and look what I found smile

Lil's Extraordinary Precautions

I will protect my husband at all times
I will practice the MB principals as stated by Dr. Harley
I will share all passwords, and account info with my husband.
I will make my cell phone available to my husband at any time
I will share my private feelings, thoughts, and concerns with my husband
I will share my schedule with my husband and discuss any changes with him.
I will not discuss my personal issues with any man besides my husband unless he gives his consent
I will not help/discuss another mans problems unless my husband gives his consent
I will not be alone with another man unless my husband approves.
I will not go out with another man unless my husband is present.
I will not have a male therapist or personal trainer unless my husband is present or there is an emergency and I am need of immediate assistance.
I will not participate in activities without my husband unless he approves enthusiastically.
I will never have any secrets from my husband - unless its his birthday or Christmas present.
I will not let anybody walk over me I will stand up for myself
I will not accept anything but Openness & Honesty
I will listen to my gut/instincts
I will wake up each morning and make a concentrated effort to be happy






I wish my W did even half of these things.. Is this what R is suppose to look like?

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: honeybadger22] #249560
07/27/12 11:27 PM
07/27/12 11:27 PM
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Depends on how far in recovery you are, what your marriage is like, and what the 2 people in the marriage do.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #249586
07/28/12 03:27 AM
07/28/12 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey


I don't much like the term "extraordinary" precautions as it suggests that they are not necessarily part of an "ordinary" marriage but I'm guessing that the term is fixed.



Yes, that's right. They are not 'extra', they are part of normal boundaries in a marriage when both care for each other. Writing them down like these examples is no more than writing down your goals or New Years Resolutions. Written goals are more likely to be held to. If they are only in my head I could go out and if an opportunity comes thinks "It doesnt matter what I do, the wifes at home...", which is what leads to lying and cheating.

The basic problem is that the world has a basic lack of respect for itself, and each other.

Extraordinary does sounds better. Nobody is going to google 'ordinary precautions'.

The only thing I think is extraordinary is that we (marriage forum participants) are among the only ones with EP's.


Been there, done that, wish I'd just stayed home.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Flick] #259882
10/05/12 03:15 PM
10/05/12 03:15 PM
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Lil Offline

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Bump


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #322370
11/08/13 01:49 AM
11/08/13 01:49 AM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ldg
In my (unpopular) opinion, EP's should be mutual and address the fears of both spouses.


The part you have bracketed, 'unpopular', is simply not true for most if not all who see the value in EP's. The concern I see when you state it like this, that your opinion of EP's being mutual is not popular, indicates that the there is also another view which is more popular. And that would be that EP's are not mutual.

If you read through this thread again, you will see that EP's are absolutely mutual. EP's set out by the BS, the ones that are non-negotiable like NC, transparency, the WS has the choice to not accept them. Both spouses agreeing to attempt R, knowing what EP's are on the list (tweaked to their sitch) enter into this agreement on their own free will. I see that as mutual unless one of them has a gun to their head.

Recovery can't be forced on either party.



26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322386
11/08/13 04:34 AM
11/08/13 04:34 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: Ldg
In my (unpopular) opinion, EP's should be mutual and address the fears of both spouses.


The part you have bracketed, 'unpopular', is simply not true for most if not all who see the value in EP's. The concern I see when you state it like this, that your opinion of EP's being mutual is not popular, indicates that the there is also another view which is more popular. And that would be that EP's are not mutual.

If you read through this thread again, you will see that EP's are absolutely mutual. EP's set out by the BS, the ones that are non-negotiable like NC, transparency, the WS has the choice to not accept them. Both spouses agreeing to attempt R, knowing what EP's are on the list (tweaked to their sitch) enter into this agreement on their own free will. I see that as mutual unless one of them has a gun to their head.

Recovery can't be forced on either party.



My sense from you is that you forced a whole lot of stuff on your husband with a punitive attitude.

My sense from you is that you are uncomfortable with that.

Few show up here with the "my way or the high way" MelodyLane attitude, but from what I can tell, that is your perpective.

I think that is a very valuable perspective to have. Not everyone is me, chafing like mad at all of it. Not everyone is like your husband, willing to take a polygraph and have you as his taskmaster where he reports to you and you monitor his every move and keystroke.

That doesn't make him better than me or vice versa. We are just different --I couldn't tolerate the life he leads, but if it works for y'all that is all that matters.

Last edited by LadyGrey; 11/08/13 04:39 AM.

Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #322390
11/08/13 06:31 AM
11/08/13 06:31 AM
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Lil Offline

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Originally Posted By: Lil
I have been searching thru my main commputer this morning, and look what I found smile

Lil's Extraordinary Precautions

I will protect my husband at all times
I will practice the MB principals as stated by Dr. Harley
I will share all passwords, and account info with my husband.
I will make my cell phone available to my husband at any time
I will share my private feelings, thoughts, and concerns with my husband
I will share my schedule with my husband and discuss any changes with him.
I will not discuss my personal issues with any man besides my husband unless he gives his consent
I will not help/discuss another mans problems unless my husband gives his consent

I will not be alone with another man unless my husband approves.
I will not go out with another man unless my husband is present.
I will not have a male therapist or personal trainer unless my husband is present or there is an emergency and I am need of immediate assistance.
I will not participate in activities without my husband unless he approves enthusiastically.
I will never have any secrets from my husband - unless its his birthday or Christmas present.
I will not let anybody walk over me I will stand up for myself
I will not accept anything but Openness & Honesty
I will listen to my gut/instincts
I will wake up each morning and make a concentrated effort to be happy






Just recently, the bolded things have been a small issue for us. Its good to review this. Thanks for the bump Vit.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #322412
11/08/13 02:43 PM
11/08/13 02:43 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: Ldg
In my (unpopular) opinion, EP's should be mutual and address the fears of both spouses.


The part you have bracketed, 'unpopular', is simply not true for most if not all who see the value in EP's. The concern I see when you state it like this, that your opinion of EP's being mutual is not popular, indicates that the there is also another view which is more popular. And that would be that EP's are not mutual.

If you read through this thread again, you will see that EP's are absolutely mutual. EP's set out by the BS, the ones that are non-negotiable like NC, transparency, the WS has the choice to not accept them. Both spouses agreeing to attempt R, knowing what EP's are on the list (tweaked to their sitch) enter into this agreement on their own free will. I see that as mutual unless one of them has a gun to their head.

Recovery can't be forced on either party.



My sense from you is that you forced a whole lot of stuff on your husband with a punitive attitude.

My sense from you is that you are uncomfortable with that.

Few show up here with the "my way or the high way" MelodyLane attitude, but from what I can tell, that is your perpective.

I think that is a very valuable perspective to have. Not everyone is me, chafing like mad at all of it. Not everyone is like your husband, willing to take a polygraph and have you as his taskmaster where he reports to you and you monitor his every move and keystroke.

That doesn't make him better than me or vice versa. We are just different --I couldn't tolerate the life he leads, but if it works for y'all that is all that matters.

I can't imagine my brain telling my fingers to type out a response like the one above. It's nasty, beyond rude, disrespectful to folks who aren't involved in this conversation (my H for one and I'll speak to that in a sec.) and most of all it lends no hand to resolving anything.

I find your description of how you view my H's actions, more than a bit offensive. I don't doubt he'd view it in the same light and be very hurt for anyone seeing his actions the way you do. I felt hurt for him reading your words.

I have huge respect for the effort and commitment he put forth to rebuild what his A broke in our M. Reading your views on recovery confirms over and over what a precious gem of a man I have.

This conversation needs to be over on this thread so if you feel the need to rip one again, my suggestion would be to use the TD.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322514
11/08/13 08:39 PM
11/08/13 08:39 PM
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LadyGrey Offline
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I'm sorry you were offended by my words. That was not my intent. My intent was to illustrate that there is a spectrum of unfaithful spouses, some of whom are willing to do whatever their spouses asks, some of whom are willing to do some stuff, and some of whom are willing to do very little.

I think it is dangerous to assume that an unfaithful spouse isn't committed to reconciliation based upon where they fall on that spectrum.

Some EP's may exacerbate pre-existing problems in the marriage. IMO the unfaithful spouse should refuse that particular EP. That refusal may be perceived as evidence that the spouse is not invested in recovery when it is nothing of the sort.

I think every marriage is different and what works for one would be a disaster in another. I'm not a fan of "you must do X Y & Z" in any context so had my husband been told to require those EP's, it would have harmed our marriage, not helped it.

Again, my apologies for offending you.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322595
11/09/13 04:41 AM
11/09/13 04:41 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: Ldg
In my (unpopular) opinion, EP's should be mutual and address the fears of both spouses.


The part you have bracketed, 'unpopular', is simply not true for most if not all who see the value in EP's. The concern I see when you state it like this, that your opinion of EP's being mutual is not popular, indicates that the there is also another view which is more popular. And that would be that EP's are not mutual.

If you read through this thread again, you will see that EP's are absolutely mutual. EP's set out by the BS, the ones that are non-negotiable like NC, transparency, the WS has the choice to not accept them. Both spouses agreeing to attempt R, knowing what EP's are on the list (tweaked to their sitch) enter into this agreement on their own free will. I see that as mutual unless one of them has a gun to their head.

Recovery can't be forced on either party.



My sense from you is that you forced a whole lot of stuff on your husband with a punitive attitude.

My sense from you is that you are uncomfortable with that.

Few show up here with the "my way or the high way" MelodyLane attitude, but from what I can tell, that is your perpective.

I think that is a very valuable perspective to have. Not everyone is me, chafing like mad at all of it. Not everyone is like your husband, willing to take a polygraph and have you as his taskmaster where he reports to you and you monitor his every move and keystroke.

That doesn't make him better than me or vice versa. We are just different --I couldn't tolerate the life he leads, but if it works for y'all that is all that matters.

I can't imagine my brain telling my fingers to type out a response like the one above. It's nasty, beyond rude, disrespectful to folks who aren't involved in this conversation (my H for one and I'll speak to that in a sec.) and most of all it lends no hand to resolving anything.

I find your description of how you view my H's actions, more than a bit offensive. I don't doubt he'd view it in the same light and be very hurt for anyone seeing his actions the way you do. I felt hurt for him reading your words.

I have huge respect for the effort and commitment he put forth to rebuild what his A broke in our M. Reading your views on recovery confirms over and over what a precious gem of a man I have.

This conversation needs to be over on this thread so if you feel the need to rip one again, my suggestion would be to use the TD.



Sometimes-- not always-- but sometimes when stuff really pisses you off you might want to look at whether there is a truth there you don't want to look at.

I do not subscribe to the theory that that is always the case. Sometimes people are just jerks or syncophants.

My sense is that there is truth in what I said that you don't want to look at.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #322604
11/09/13 01:29 PM
11/09/13 01:29 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm sorry you were offended by my words. That was not my intent.

I'll be forthright here, cuz that's what I feel we both are, I don't trust this statement. You're not a stupid woman, LdG, in fact I think you are pretty intelligent. You chose your words carefully to make it personal.


Quote:
My intent was to illustrate that there is a spectrum of unfaithful spouses, some of whom are willing to do whatever their spouses asks, some of whom are willing to do some stuff, and some of whom are willing to do very little.

I think it is dangerous to assume that an unfaithful spouse isn't committed to reconciliation based upon where they fall on that spectrum.

Some EP's may exacerbate pre-existing problems in the marriage. IMO the unfaithful spouse should refuse that particular EP. That refusal may be perceived as evidence that the spouse is not invested in recovery when it is nothing of the sort.

I think every marriage is different and what works for one would be a disaster in another. I'm not a fan of "you must do X Y & Z" in any context so had my husband been told to require those EP's, it would have harmed our marriage, not helped it.


The above is a great post despite the fact that I don't support all of it. This is one that is soooo workable to me to discuss and hash out the why's and what if's. This is one I would have enjoyed discussing with you, not only cuz of your thoughts on the subject but how you articulated it. There was no crap.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322605
11/09/13 01:35 PM
11/09/13 01:35 PM
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Vittoria Offline
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Originally Posted By: LdG
Sometimes-- not always-- but sometimes when stuff really pisses you off you might want to look at whether there is a truth there you don't want to look at.

I do not subscribe to the theory that that is always the case. Sometimes people are just jerks or syncophants.

My sense is that there is truth in what I said that you don't want to look at.

Sure, I'm open to talking about this. Start a thread and let me know where it is unless you think it can be tied to EP's, I'm fine with it being here.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) #322676
11/09/13 08:49 PM
11/09/13 08:49 PM
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My friend's husband had an affair two years ago. They are struggling in their recovery.

I asked her, not for the first time, if he understands why he had an affair.

He says he doesn't know.

She has made guesses, which she shares: she tells me about her illness at the time, how she was too racked with pain to pay attention to him, how her weight gain from the medications made her unattractive to him, and also mentions his triggers because his first wife died and he was afraid she would, too. In short, she points to everything she did "wrong" but not to him.

So my question now becomes: If an unfaithful spouse cannot tell you why they cheated, how can they know they will never do it again?

So, what do you think?

PS: There is much more to this story, as there always is... and frankly, I find her husband to be disingenuous and creepy. But it really brought up this notion that one would need to know what to avoid if something in particular caused the cheating. That's why I began this thread - to discuss it.


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322683
11/09/13 09:40 PM
11/09/13 09:40 PM
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I wrote something that came up because of a friend of mine... CLICK HERE

Now I'm wondering if it should be in this thread? Mods, if you stumble across this, maybe move it over here?

How can someone have EPs if they don't even know what caused them to stumble in the first place?


A happy marriage is a long conversation which always seems too short. --Andre Maurois

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: wiser_now] #322688
11/09/13 10:12 PM
11/09/13 10:12 PM
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I don't think this is unusual. Sometimes it takes the WS a while before they really "know" why they cheatedespecially when the situation is complicated like the one you've described. However, I do agree that part of the recovery process is the exploration of the all of the contributing factors.

There are a couple of reasons that it's important, including the one you mention about being able to prevent future infidelity. Its also important because understanding "why" is a huge part of the process to re-establish safety for the BS. After all.both partners have some changes to make and neither will really know what's important without understanding. The WS will have to take extra-ordinary precautions. The BS will want to know what puts the most stress on the marriage, and when things are most likely to unravel. I believe the inability to understand why delays or can even derail recovery, especially for the BS. Recovery is still possible, but it's much harder.

Still, I know there are many WS who never really knowor tellthe real reasons why. Some people are just not good communicators or seem out of touch or uncomfortable with their own feelings. That doesn't mean they don't feel remorseonly that they may have trouble expressing it. Shame and guilt can also make communication difficult at first.

That doesn't mean future problems can't be addressed if all of the necessary safeguards are put in place. Besides the mandatory no contact with the OP, the article I wrote about "22 ways to keep from cheating on your spouse", was written in collaboration with WS's who were willing to share the big and small things that got them in trouble and started their slide down the slippery slope. Then I compared those things to other lists from other experts and made sure I wasn't missing anything important. Even if a spouse doesn't yet know, or has talked about, why they cheatedif they follow those guidelines, they can avoid the temptation of affairs in the future.

I was not satisfied with "I don't know". It happened to be a deal breaker for me. But even though we talked about it right after discovery, full understanding actually took years.


"Yes, I'll have the love combo, open faced with a side of respect and large a glass of forgiveness, easy on the ice please--my brother
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: star*fish] #322720
11/10/13 01:52 AM
11/10/13 01:52 AM
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Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline

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Lil  Offline

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Ive made some assumptions over the years as to why my husband cheated - some I facilitated, most his own stuff. He's made a couple of comments in that time that gave me a little insight.

Now adays I just dont think about it. I dont like revisiting it, nor does he. It happened, it sucked, we moved on and made a new marriage that doesnt suck. If it happenes again I will go forward guilt free because I know I did my bit.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
Infidelity Guide For The Betrayed Spouse


Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322724
11/10/13 03:13 AM
11/10/13 03:13 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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LadyGrey  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm sorry you were offended by my words. That was not my intent.

I'll be forthright here, cuz that's what I feel we both are, I don't trust this statement. You're not a stupid woman, LdG, in fact I think you are pretty intelligent. You chose your words carefully to make it personal.


Of course it was personal. It doesn't follow that it was meant to be offensive.

I have a vision of your marriage based upon the way you post here. I have zero outside data. Based upon what you have posted, your husband agreed to everything you required, including the polygraph, GPS and keylogger. As far as I can tell, you have never let up on any of that stuff.

The posts from you that I read here seem to be very focused on setting the bar high and EP's. I suspect that you have used those concepts in a punitive manner in your marriage because you are a little too strident.

I was pleased to see you say that your husband is a "gem" because that was the first positive comment -- or really any comment -- I have read from you about your husband. You talk about yourself rarely, you talk about EP's and the bar a lot, and you talk about your husband almost never.

I think you are still madder than hell about what he did to you. Don't blame you a bit.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #322732
11/10/13 07:07 AM
11/10/13 07:07 AM
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Mary Emma Offline
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Victoria, i understand what you are saying. The person cheated really, really broke the marriage and if they want back in they are going to have to agree to the terms set by the betrayed spouse. The cheater is free to agree to accept or reject the terms.


LG, i almost always agree with you but this i think i see it q bit differently. EPs are not punitive, they do several things. First and foremost give the betrayed spouse some safety, secondly, the show they truly care about their betrayed spouse but finally, wisely to not wind up in the same situation again.

Years back i wrote online if my marriage continued the way it was i could someday consider an affair. I wrote than a few times. I felt very ignored and felt my husband was mean. I felt trapped with children and not enough money to separate if i wanted to. Never ever cheated or anything never, never inappropriate. Ever. My hubby reads those posts and they still hurt him to this day. I am more than willing to do anything it takes to make him feel safe and understood. Recently, i had several conference calls in one day and missed his call and it worried him ( because we are having a difficult time in the marriage).

I told him, i will sign up for a lie detector test, i will make a point to keep the phone near by so i don't miss his cell phone call. heck i am willing to have myself taped with Skype. He found all of it unnecessary. But if you love someone and you have hurt them, it would make sense to me to be willing to do what ever you can to help them feel better. I think EPs are just exactly that, IMHO.


If they have to be forced upon someone one than perhaps there is still trouble in the relationship.


I can not imagine it ever even being a burden or punishment. Of course this is just my opinion.





Last edited by Mary Emma; 11/10/13 07:19 AM.

Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mary Emma] #322734
11/10/13 07:13 AM
11/10/13 07:13 AM
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Mary Emma Offline
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Now this whole issue of forgiveness, i would love a thread to discuss that. I think the terms is overused and has different meanings for many.


I, personally, am not a fan of forgiveness. I am a fan of healing and i think forgiveness it at the end of the healing not the first step. I think somethings are not to be forgiven but instead resolved and learned from.

This blanket absolution actually seems crazy to me.

Why is it acceptable to never forgive someone who killed someone you love or beat and raped you, etc. but a spouse that has hurt you to the core forgiveness is brought up as almost mandatory.

I am referring specifically to experiences pertaining to me. I really, really am a fan of earned forgiveness.


Last edited by Mary Emma; 11/10/13 07:17 AM.

Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mary Emma] #322738
11/10/13 01:06 PM
11/10/13 01:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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herfuturesbright  Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Quote:
I think it is dangerous to assume that an unfaithful spouse isn't committed to reconciliation based upon where they fall on that spectrum.


I think the above can be taken to an extreme, but I have to say I understand it as well.

I remember there being a woman who cheated while making a CD of her singing. She had been a vocal performer. As part of Just Compensation and EP's she stopped singing/performing. After several years of recovery, transparency, trust being restored, etc. she wanted to sing in a church choir. A choir. A church choir is a group that meets all together - usually from 30 to maybe in the hundreds - for an hour or so each week and practices music to sing on Sundays. All together, no one on one. It is not even like a worship team, which is a very small group that meets for a longer time. She was RAILED for being wayward. When I tried to explain thinking maybe some people didn't understand how ridiculous it was to think someone could carry on an affair while spending an hour a week with 50 other people....I was railed for having "wayward thinking."

I'm sorry, that was idiotic.

As for this "breaking the marraige" thing...

An A breaks vows. An A breaks trust. n a breaks hearts. An A is a terrible, immoral choice that is the responsibility of the one who makes it.

But there ARE times (sorry, there ARE no matter whose emotions want to rail otherwise)....there ARE times when the A was not the only thing that broke the marriage. In fact, in some cases - like mine - the A is not the first thing to break the marriage.

Does that mean that I am not 100% responsible for my choice to cheat? NO. No it does not mean that. I was 100% responsible for my choice to cheat, and nothing that H did or did not do excuses or justifies that choice. It was wrong. I wanted to make that clear for anyone who has selective reading comprehension.

But yes.....there IS a spectrum. Because I was thin when I had my A and exercising, h asked me to stop. I stopped exercising and watching my diet (he didn't like it when he knew I was counting calories), even when the meds caused me to gain 75 pounds, even when my BP creeped up and my knees hurt. Even when I cried and tried to fake sickness on church directory picture day because I hated what I saw in the mirror.

Now people who are so hardened by THEIR situation will read that, and with out a flicker of human empathy or compassion say, "Well fatty, you should have thought of that before you cheated."

Bullcrap. EP's to only exercise with HIM, EP's not to diet, EP's like that are reasonable. Putting my health at risk and emotionally crippling me was NOT a reasonable take on EP's. Period. I am finally healthy again, but I have permanent physical repercussions of being overmedicated and overweight.

THAT was not a result of an A. THAT was a result of militant legalistic paranoia.

I spent a lot of years revising any thought that someone who has no room for any opinions other than their own might deem "unworthy." THAT was dishonest, and isn't it DISHONESTY that is one of the root problems in an affair? How sad that in an effort to be "unwayward enough," I actually had to retain some wayward habits. Pathetic.

I understand now more about my vulnerabilities, my blindness to the deceitful wayward thinking I had, and the steps that led to my A more than I ever did in 20009, 2010, 2011.....times when lots of people would have given me the FWW gold star, mainly because of how judgmentally mean I was to other FWS's who weren't exactly like me.

Behavorism is great for pets and potty training. Recovery needs to go deeper than that for someone to TRULY recover from having an A.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 11/10/13 01:08 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #322744
11/10/13 04:10 PM
11/10/13 04:10 PM
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Mary Emma Offline
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Mary Emma  Offline
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See, now, i think you not exercising would not be an EP. The fact that he asked that is disturbing to me. That is a bad thing to ask of someone else, IMHO.

Now if you had an affair and the gym was involved in some way i would understand the desire for you to exercise at home.


Me 41
H 40
S 9
S 6

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night. -Bishop G. Brewer
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Mary Emma] #322751
11/10/13 05:58 PM
11/10/13 05:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 17,282
The Castle Aaaggghh...
herfuturesbright Offline
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The Castle Aaaggghh...
Yes, if a gym was the birthplace (or had any relevance at all really) to an A, then I think a no-gym-membership policy would make sense.

If I had an A with my singing partner, then no performing with someone of the opposite sex would make sense.

If I met my AP at work or the A was work-related, then workplace exposure and job change would make sense.

Honestly, I think some things that are called "EP"'s are not really EP's at all. "EP" is just the cover someone uses for making sure someone else suffers for as long as possible and is cut off from as much of the world as possible.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #322764
11/10/13 08:45 PM
11/10/13 08:45 PM
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Teejay Offline
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Quote:
If an unfaithful spouse cannot tell you why they cheated, how can they know they will never do it again?

So, what do you think?


There is not one unfaithful spouse in the entire world who "cannot" say why they cheated.

If they don't say why, it can be for a number of reasons, none of which is "cannot". It is simply "won't". Some of them may be unselfish, however, most of them are self-protective more than spouse-protective.

And, like Dr. Phil so aptly says, "you can't change what you don't acknowledge". So, if no "why" is forthcoming from the WS, the greatest likelihood is that he/she WILL cheat again.

Several of those reasons may be:

1) the unfaithful spouse wants to protect the feelings of his/her BS;

2) the unfaithful spouse does not want to "own" his/her actions nor repent of them;

3) the unfaithful spouse wants to ameliorate the repercussions of his/her affair by pretending that there is "no cause" for his/her actions; giving rise to "something bigger than themselves" being "in control" of them;

I think "EPs" are entirely appropriate for both partners BEFORE any affair happens.

Both my wife and I are victims of past affairs of our spouses. We told each other prior to our marriage that our policy is "one strike, you're out". There will be no counseling, no pastors, no reading on websites, no self-help books, it will be GET OUT and STAY OUT FOREVER with divorce actions being filed on the business day following the affair discovery. There will be no reconciliation, not now, not ever.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Teejay] #322781
11/11/13 12:36 AM
11/11/13 12:36 AM
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Vittoria Offline
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Ready? This is very, very long.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I have a vision of your marriage based upon the way you post here. I have zero outside data. Based upon what you have posted, your husband agreed to everything you required, including the polygraph, GPS and keylogger. As far as I can tell, you have never let up on any of that stuff.

I'll give you as much info (no problem with that) as I'm comfortable with sharing on a public internet forum.

First, there was no GPS. It was irrelevant in our sitch. Since H refused to admit to an A or anything inappropriate with OW despite being confronted with sweetheart texts between the two of them, which I happened to come across while waiting for a call to come back on his phone, I installed a keylogger on the comp. I had no idea what I was dealing with, ongoing A, financial impact (found letters from OW thanking him for gifts she'd received via postal mail). That aspect, that tool, it's done, there hasn't been monitoring for contact or a second A for years. We're 5yrs. out from d-day. I'd be concerned myself if I was still monitoring him like that.

Now the polygraph, I know you find this tool offensive so maybe if I give more detail around it (I've posted about this before on MA, feeling like a broken record right now) you might understand the choices I was faced with and my reason for using it. Or not. Like you, I researched this test before I considered it. The best I could with my novice researching ability, anyway. I fully understood the moment I spoke of it to H, I was committed to saying what I meant and meaning what I say.

After 4mos. of him telling me OW was 'just a friend', refusing to return to MC after 2 sessions which btw he'd been more than open to at the start (until the MC started asking uncomfortable questions about his friendship with OW) and some good friends of both his and mine encouraged/supported him to be truthful, he stuck to the just friends story. Knowing I could not remain in a M being lied to about this, I booked a polygraph hoping he'd be willing but knowing if he wasn't, I had my answer for the future. Backstory bit: he had agreed to a poly during this 4mos. stint although I don't believe he ever thought there would really be one, neither did I at the time of that conversation.

Understand at this point I saw my options as D or staying in the M which meant shutting up and enduring the growing resentment towards him. That's not what I see as a healthy M. We'd been married 20yrs. and I was doing everything I could to avoid divorce. Life was hell, I was crazed and he was stressed to the max, you could see it physically in him.

The test was initially offered up an opportunity to reassure me that I was safe from lies in the M regarding the OW. No brow beating, no demands. I was posting on MB at the time and brow beating/demands over this was NOT encouraged, very much frowned upon actually. After a whole bunch of conflict re: poly, he confessed to an A and some details. Remember the level of deceit I was dealing with, 6yr. A, 6yrs. of leading a double life. It wasn't in my best interest to believe he'd confessed to everything since some things still didn't add up. I decided I still needed the test done and he thought he'd avoided that need with his admission.

The second go-round re: poly was stated in the same manner but the focus was specific and life altering cuz it had to with me remaining in a M having doubts about the extent of what he'd disclosed. The exact wording, I can't remember that time although I remember the concept. He followed through with doing the poly after some wretched soul searching days. He didn't jump for joy, wasn't an eager beaver (far from it), yet he did it. He didn't have to, like me he had the choice to walk away from the M. And, I've never heard a spiteful comment from him about it. The last time we spoke of it was when you asked me to ask him something about it and I did. That was quite awhile ago.
It's all past history now. Could it have been solved a different way, I'm sure there are several ways to approach it in hindsight. It was what it was.

Quote:
The posts from you that I read here seem to be very focused on setting the bar high and EP's. I suspect that you have used those concepts in a punitive manner in your marriage because you are a little too strident.

I can see how you get the impression that I'm strident with recovery (high bar, EP's), although I'm not so sure strident is the most accurate word. Your word, your opinion. Loud voice, maybe sometimes, obnoxious, not that I'm aware of. The last couple of days I've been thinking about what is it about LdG that gets me so wound up, so cranked and more so than anyone else on this forum. You are one of very few people in my life (real and online) that bring out the worst in me. I've figured it out, I'm passionate about recovery, the whole process is dear to me. I'm thinking it's the same degree for you with autonomy for example, maybe, you write very strongly about it and you want to protect it all cost. What you write at times, undermines A's and recovery and in turn undermines the pain and effort it takes to get to a good M. I've traced it back to that. Btw, I'm NOT trying to piss you off.

Setting the bar high, right now I'd be divorced or in a M fuming with resentment and mistrust towards my H had I not enforced a boundary of honesty. That's a high bar and one of the hardest things I did cuz the consequence of a boundary being ignored doesn't only affect the one the boundary is directed to. In some way it affects both people. Once we were in recovery, I was faced with another high bar decision and for the life of me I can't remember the details of that one. I felt we needed more support and the result was doing a marital support weekend.

I'm passionate about recovery, it is that painful and difficult. The hopelessness that you'll ever have a happy day again, a day without thinking about the A, it seems life will forever be a big black hole. You can't imagine ever being able to trust your spouse again or the feeling of being on constant high alert ever fading. The learning and putting to practice you do as a couple and individually, it's exhausting and frustrating. You're learning about boundaries, that's easy. Enforcing them, huge learning curve. And, you're dealing with all of this while emotions are still reeling on both sides. When I read of BS's going in circles and posting their fears and the fear of even mentioning let alone using EP's with their spouse, I feel sick for them cuz I know it doesn't have to be that way for them.

Then it gets a bit better. And then a bit better again until one day you wake up and life is good. That day was 2-3yrs. ago, for me. I believe in recovery, I wish everyone who wanted a chance at R got it and recovered their M despite how painful it is. I look back over the first years of R and I can't believe we made it. I also can't dwell on that time cuz it's that painful. At this time thinking about it, d-day was instant death, recovery was like a slow death. Until it got better.

For us, we didn't know intuitively how to recover from this A. But, we had a recipe (MB) to follow and it got us through. A huge part of that recipe included using EP's. I would never have known how to articulate or ask for such precautions without sounding needy and whiny and my H wouldn't have known how to help alleviate my fears. That was his concern, knowing what to do. I wrote some other stuff on this thread about EP's so I'm not going to repeat it, this whole post is long enough.

Is autonomy lost, sure, and it's heavier on the WS side for a period of time. That changes as the M is rebuilt. The question is whether or not the investment is worth the change in mindset and lifestyle and it goes for both spouses.
My H goes on 'guys only' trips and I'm good with it, he doesn't check in with me on a regular basis yet he does frequently (as I do with him) and it's cuz he wants to. Lots of things that started as an EP's have now become regular thoughtful gestures.
EP's along with other ingredients in the recipe were like a life line when we felt like we were sinking.

Quote:
I was pleased to see you say that your husband is a "gem" because that was the first positive comment -- or really any comment -- I have read from you about your husband. You talk about yourself rarely, you talk about EP's and the bar a lot, and you talk about your husband almost never.

There's enough info/drama about us on the internet from me posting during our 4mos. saga than what I'm comfortable with now. As I was typing out the details surrounding the polygraph, I didn't have a good feeling inside (no idea if anyone can relate to this). It was a portrait of a horrible person and that's not my H. I didn't like shining him in that light to people who don't know what he's like now. Why write about things that conger up lousy memories of hurt. The recovery process is different, there's a blessed ending for the work and pain.
I'm good with posting as I do, sharing what I do. If we need help to sort out any junk that we can't manage on our own, we have resources and we use them.

Just because I don't post about him or much about myself, does not mean there must be issues. The fact that there are little to no threads started here by myself does not mean I must not know how to start them.

Quote:
I think you are still madder than hell about what he did to you. Don't blame you a bit.

I've thought about this. I'm not anymore, not for a long time and it's cuz I don't think about it anymore unless of course I'm talking about it like I am now. Even at this moment, yeah, I'm sad for what we went through. Madder than hell, I'm not feeling that emotion at this moment.

You say you wouldn't blame me if I was. After 5yrs. still married and madder than hell, you can blame me for my own misery but I wouldn't expect you to support blame on my H at this point.


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #322836
11/11/13 02:47 PM
11/11/13 02:47 PM
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ohmy_marie Offline
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Originally Posted By: vittoria
Why write about things that conger up lousy memories of hurt. The recovery process is different, there's a blessed ending for the work and pain.


ah, vit ... thanks for sharing! as to what you've shared in the past (I don't read that other site), i'm sure it was driven from a place within yourself that needed comforting. it's all a learning process, right?

congrats on your recovery!


may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone. -- e. e. cummings
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #323077
11/12/13 05:18 AM
11/12/13 05:18 AM
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LadyGrey Offline
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LadyGrey  Offline
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Thank you Vittoria for your thoughtful, measured, honest response to me. I have, over the years, come to respect you a great deal for your ability to reflect before reacting. I'm getting better at it, but I have a long way to go.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I have a vision of your marriage based upon the way you post here. I have zero outside data. Based upon what you have posted, your husband agreed to everything you required, including the polygraph, GPS and keylogger. As far as I can tell, you have never let up on any of that stuff.


Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I'll give you as much info (no problem with that) as I'm comfortable with sharing on a public internet forum.

First, there was no GPS. It was irrelevant in our sitch. Since H refused to admit to an A or anything inappropriate with OW despite being confronted with sweetheart texts between the two of them, which I happened to come across while waiting for a call to come back on his phone, I installed a keylogger on the comp. I had no idea what I was dealing with, ongoing A, financial impact (found letters from OW thanking him for gifts she'd received via postal mail). That aspect, that tool, it's done, there hasn't been monitoring for contact or a second A for years. We're 5yrs. out from d-day. I'd be concerned myself if I was still monitoring him like that.


I had no idea that you lived with the "nothing going on" thing for so long. I had no idea that there were financial aspects to the affair. I had no idea you had to be a sleuth.

My husband said after maybe three weeks based upon texts he read on my phone (I really suck at this stuff) "are you having an affair?" Well, yes, sort of, but it isn't physical, which, of course, it was.

I even said out loud at one of our few MC sessions, "of course it was physical" when I meant to say, "of course it wasn't physical." I almost started laughing when neither of them seemed to notice -- and, frankly, I don't think my husband did.

I really suck at this stuff.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Now the polygraph, I know you find this tool offensive so maybe if I give more detail around it (I've posted about this before on MA, feeling like a broken record right now) you might understand the choices I was faced with and my reason for using it. Or not. Like you, I researched this test before I considered it. The best I could with my novice researching ability, anyway. I fully understood the moment I spoke of it to H, I was committed to saying what I meant and meaning what I say.


Maybe the power in the polygraph had less to do with the "truth" you were getting than the fact that you were committed to creating some boundaries.

I don't believe in the accuracy of polygraphs and was taught that they are pointless in law school. I revisited that issue here -- mainly because I was astonished that people were actively promoting passing a polygraph on MB as a requirement for reconciliation (yes, Dorothy, we have gone completely insane!) I view MB like East Berlin -- you can't actually talk to anyone there but maybe you can influence the thinking a bit. I feared that those that followed that advice might break up their families -- impacting their CHILDREN -- based upon questionable science., I found no independent studies that confirmed accuracy beyond mere chance. And I LOOKED. And Medc presumably looked WAY harder than me, but not a one did we find. All of the studies that support the accuracy are sponsored by polygraphers. They just ARE. I didn't make that up.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
After 4mos. of him telling me OW was 'just a friend', refusing to return to MC after 2 sessions which btw he'd been more than open to at the start (until the MC started asking uncomfortable questions about his friendship with OW) and some good friends of both his and mine encouraged/supported him to be truthful, he stuck to the just friends story. Knowing I could not remain in a M being lied to about this, I booked a polygraph hoping he'd be willing but knowing if he wasn't, I had my answer for the future. Backstory bit: he had agreed to a poly during this 4mos. stint although I don't believe he ever thought there would really be one, neither did I at the time of that conversation.


I can see, I think, using it as a tool to bring things to head. What I can't see is placing any merit in the report.

In researching the issue, I of course looked at about 15 websites of what were, based upon my research, top flight polygraphers who dealt with infidelity.

Most if not all of them said either one or both of the following: (1) do not come to see me until you have had intensive marriage counseling and your marriage counselor has recommended a polygraph, and/or (2) I will not do the test unless there is a marriage counselor to whom I report -- in other words, y'all don't get the report.

Those folks I might trust to the extent I could trust the process.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Understand at this point I saw my options as D or staying in the M which meant shutting up and enduring the growing resentment towards him. That's not what I see as a healthy M. We'd been married 20yrs. and I was doing everything I could to avoid divorce. Life was hell, I was crazed and he was stressed to the max, you could see it physically in him.


Marriage can suck the life out of you. I had a friend who said my family put a vacuum cleaner hose in my ear and sucked the life out of me. FTR, I had to go back and edit that sentence several times to make it honest. It's shameful, really.

Divorce seemed like the Holy Grail -- someday, maybe -- or something I earned by suffering X amount, except X was never defined.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The test was initially offered up an opportunity to reassure me that I was safe from lies in the M regarding the OW. No brow beating, no demands. I was posting on MB at the time and brow beating/demands over this was NOT encouraged, very much frowned upon actually.


Well, that's astonishing. Are you sure? Browbeating, judging and demanding seem to be the three rails on which MB rides.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
After a whole bunch of conflict re: poly, he confessed to an A and some details. Remember the level of deceit I was dealing with, 6yr. A, 6yrs. of leading a double life. It wasn't in my best interest to believe he'd confessed to everything since some things still didn't add up. I decided I still needed the test done and he thought he'd avoided that need with his admission


I had no idea you were dealing with that sort of long term relationship. .

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The second go-round re: poly was stated in the same manner but the focus was specific and life altering cuz it had to with me remaining in a M having doubts about the extent of what he'd disclosed.


What possible difference did it make? Why did you need to know?

I have zero doubt that my husband has cheated on me. He is too beautiful and too powerful and too rich and ran in a crowd that was very entitled for a very long time with lots of women provided on private planes, etc.

I don't want to know.

If anyone told me I would be FURIOUS.

That has not one thing to do with my life.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The exact wording, I can't remember that time although I remember the concept. He followed through with doing the poly after some wretched soul searching days. He didn't jump for joy, wasn't an eager beaver (far from it), yet he did it. He didn't have to, like me he had the choice to walk away from the M. And, I've never heard a spiteful comment from him about it. The last time we spoke of it was when you asked me to ask him something about it and I did. That was quite awhile ago.


I'm glad for y'all -- and I am being sincere.

I wouldn't do it for a whole host of reasons, one of which is that what we have is so tenuous, it wouldn't survive me being hooked up to a machine being asked about orgasms.

Hell, *I* wouldn't survive being hooked up to a machine being asked about orgasms.

I'd rather shoot myself.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
It's all past history now. Could it have been solved a different way, I'm sure there are several ways to approach it in hindsight. It was what it was.


No doubt. Have no idea what that better way might have been but it seems to be always elusively out of reach.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
The posts from you that I read here seem to be very focused on setting the bar high and EP's. I suspect that you have used those concepts in a punitive manner in your marriage because you are a little too strident.


Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I can see how you get the impression that I'm strident with recovery (high bar, EP's), although I'm not so sure strident is the most accurate word. Your word, your opinion. Loud voice, maybe sometimes, obnoxious, not that I'm aware of. The last couple of days I've been thinking about what is it about LdG that gets me so wound up, so cranked and more so than anyone else on this forum. You are one of very few people in my life (real and online) that bring out the worst in me. I've figured it out, I'm passionate about recovery, the whole process is dear to me. I'm thinking it's the same degree for you with autonomy for example, maybe, you write very strongly about it and you want to protect it all cost.


Yes that is exactly right.

My IC said, "turn on your 'Find my iPhone' and show him how to use it so he can see where you are." And I would have had to show him how to use it.

No, absolutely not.

My IC said, "sit down next to him one night, show him what your posting and talk to him about it."

No, absolutely not.

My IC said, "give him all your passwords to everything."

OK, fine. FINE.

Who actually knows all their passwords? I made a token effort. Hell, if I had to list all of my passwords today, it would take hours to retrieve them.

My husband used the info he got to control me.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
What you write at times, undermines A's and recovery and in turn undermines the pain and effort it takes to get to a good M. I've traced it back to that. Btw, I'm NOT trying to piss you off.


Well, that's good because if you were trying to piss me off, you failed. smile

I don't think you meant "undermines" A's but what is it that I do that you perceive is inconsistent with supporting recovery and marriage?

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Setting the bar high, right now I'd be divorced or in a M fuming with resentment and mistrust towards my H had I not enforced a boundary of honesty. That's a high bar and one of the hardest things I did cuz the consequence of a boundary being ignored doesn't only affect the one the boundary is directed to. In some way it affects both people.


I think there is a corresponding boundary of not punishing your spouse for honesty.

And honestly, I don't thing we will ever get there because he gets SO MAD when I express anything that could be remotely labeled at critical.

SO MAD.

Perhaps I should have set a high bar, but I wasn't exactly in a position to do so, right?

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Once we were in recovery, I was faced with another high bar decision and for the life of me I can't remember the details of that one. I felt we needed more support and the result was doing a marital support weekend.[/quote[

I'm a big believer in outside help through crisis situations.

I spent thirty minutes last Sunday morning laying in bed with my husband talking him out of going to see our marriage counselor.

I'm a big believer in outside help through crisis situations for other people.

[quote=Vittoria]I'm passionate about recovery, it is that painful and difficult. The hopelessness that you'll ever have a happy day again, a day without thinking about the A, it seems life will forever be a big black hole. You can't imagine ever being able to trust your spouse again or the feeling of being on constant high alert ever fading. The learning and putting to practice you do as a couple and individually, it's exhausting and frustrating. You're learning about boundaries, that's easy. Enforcing them, huge learning curve. And, you're dealing with all of this while emotions are still reeling on both sides. When I read of BS's going in circles and posting their fears and the fear of even mentioning let alone using EP's with their spouse, I feel sick for them cuz I know it doesn't have to be that way for them.


I think at the end of the day that the unfaithful spouse has to adopt their own EP's as deciding that is who they are.

I'll never have another affair because my EP's keep me safe from my worst self. I've talked to my daughter and her very serious boyfriend about all of this (he's taken to it like a duck to water -- "hey, you told me not to let anyone get near her!) They know about the affair.

I'll talk to my boys in due time.

I don't for one second believe that poor boundaries cause affairs.

I do believe that poor boundaries allow affairs.

Don't ever allow yourself to be in a position where an affair is an option and you won't have and affair, regardless of how incredibly miserable you are. You can be incredibly miserable for decades ( I KNOW) without having an affair.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Then it gets a bit better. And then a bit better again until one day you wake up and life is good. That day was 2-3yrs. ago, for me. I believe in recovery, I wish everyone who wanted a chance at R got it and recovered their M despite how painful it is. I look back over the first years of R and I can't believe we made it. I also can't dwell on that time cuz it's that painful. At this time thinking about it, d-day was instant death, recovery was like a slow death. Until it got better.


Dwelling on painful times is, well, painful.

I have a whole bunch of stuff from which to recover, and after about a billion hours of therapy I developed a highly sophisticated, color coded balloon system.

Sadly, I haven't seen a better approach.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
For us, we didn't know intuitively how to recover from this A. But, we had a recipe (MB) to follow and it got us through. A huge part of that recipe included using EP's. I would never have known how to articulate or ask for such precautions without sounding needy and whiny and my H wouldn't have known how to help alleviate my fears. That was his concern, knowing what to do. I wrote some other stuff on this thread about EP's so I'm not going to repeat it, this whole post is long enough.


I think EP's are extremely important.

I wrote on the EP thread a year or so ago about how some EP's are immediate, some EP's are internal and some EP's are for life.

For example, making sure my husband knew where I was and monitoring my communication (OUCH) for a while was an immediate EP meant to alleviate his fears in the first few months. Being proactive about dealing with my depression is an internal EP, and not having OS friendships is for life.

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Is autonomy lost, sure, and it's heavier on the WS side for a period of time. That changes as the M is rebuilt. The question is whether or not the investment is worth the change in mindset and lifestyle and it goes for both spouses.


It was not my experience that it went for both spouses. I'm 100% clear that nothing in his life changed. He still travels for work every other week and had since 2006. He still hunts through the winter months at his lease. He still places a huge priority on skiing.

It has not been my experience that that changes as the marriage is rebuilt.

You know the only thing that has changed Vitt? The ONLY thing that changed? He stopped blowing up at me.

That is it. And it actually happened last March 9 at my father's 86th birthday party and if you missed the posts on that, since deleted, that SUCKED.

It won the "This sucks for 2013 Family Situation Award".

I'm kind of proud.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #323103
11/12/13 01:57 PM
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Quote:
I wrote on the EP thread a year or so ago about how some EP's are immediate, some EP's are internal and some EP's are for life.

For example, making sure my husband knew where I was and monitoring my communication (OUCH) for a while was an immediate EP meant to alleviate his fears in the first few months. Being proactive about dealing with my depression is an internal EP, and not having OS friendships is for life.


I think this is brilliant. And wise and logical. And that really is why the whole "don't sing in the choir ever again" thing was so....weird to me. And, in my own situation, "make yourself fat, depressed and unhealthy because you were thin when you cheated" thing makes absolutely no sense to me either.

Living in the BALANCE is the hardest thing and most scary thing in life. Micromanagerial legalism is easy because, well, basically you don't have to worry about a prisoner in chains escaping. The cut and run approach is easy because you can just walk way AND convince yourself that you were perfect and you just had a "bad picker."

The hardest thing to do is learn to live in a way that BOTH spouses can have a romantic, safe, and fulfilling marriage even if one of the spouses really screwed up in the past. And let's just be honest....this third option is not REALLY what some people want.

I wanted to add this:

When it comes to recovery from an A (whether it be personally or martially), I no longer believe it has anything to do with "can't." Human beings are capable of accomplishing unimaginable things in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. I do not believe in can't. I believe in won't. If a marriage is limping along years later where spouses are perpetually either punishing or being punished, it is because that is what they are allowing, choosing, and/or wanting. A WS who WANTS to become faithful can. A BH who WANTS to forgive and let go of the past (notice I did not say forget, I said let go)can. A couple who WANTS to move forward is fully able to do so. If someone is still periodically polygraphing and keylogging their FWS spouse who has been faithful and transparent for years....it is because they WANT to. If a FWS is still cowering around corners while their BS uses the long past A as a club, it is because they are choosing to stay there. And because the BS LIKES that club.

We choose what we do, and when we want something - truly want something - we move heaven and earth to get it, and if we can't, we move on. Once a couple has been honest, there is remorse (which yes, I DO think is necessary), EP's in the categories LG described have been implemented, and new patterns have formed....there is only one reason for a FWS too keep cowering and a BS to keep playing the A trump card:

One or both of them wants it that way. If I were a BS or FWS in that kind of marriage, I'd be looking in the mirror to see which part of it I was choosing and why.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 11/12/13 02:08 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323123
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Lady Grey said, I have zero doubt that my husband has cheated on me. He is too beautiful and too powerful and too rich and ran in a crowd that was very entitled for a very long time with lots of women provided on private planes, etc.

I don't want to know.

If anyone told me I would be FURIOUS.

That has not one thing to do with my life. >>>

This is one of the saddest things I have ever read from you. It does not fit my idea of the sort of person you are.

One of my goals in life is to be authentic and in turn I want those closest to me to be authentic. It is the reason I could not continue my marriage because it became painfully clear he had lived a double life to the extent that he didn't even know who he was.

I guess if you and I were friends IRL I would be aware that you don't want to know that your husband has cheated on you.....but I don't know how I could have knowledge of such a betrayal and not tell.

My question to you is if you are so positive that he has been unfaithful to you why would you be furious if someone told you?

Last edited by SmilingWife; 11/12/13 04:22 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: SmilingWife] #323125
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I imagine it is because she doesn't feel like it is any of her business. She's just not invested in his sex life. It doesn't matter to her. Sort of like my husband doesn't really care how I format my documents in word.

I get that, if it is indeed how she feels. I pretty much feel that way too. The only difference for me is that I insist that I not ever be lied to. Do what you will, but don't lie to me to do it.


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Miranda] #323161
11/12/13 08:23 PM
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I would think it is more along the lines of not wanting to be put in a position where a response is expected, when you would rather ignore the whole thing. For LdG, she is now put in a position of trying to decide how to respond. "I always suspected, that you for confirming it," said with a smile, and then changing the topic, would seem odd. Now LdG has to figure out a response that will make sense to the "informer". The informer cannot possibly know the entire backstory, because if they did, they would know that LdG did not want to be presented with this disclosure. So now LdG feels obliged to decide how much of the backstory to disclose. That is long and complex and not flattering to either LdG or her husband. All the while LdG is thinking "remind me again why I speak to you at all". Which isn't fair to the other person. Since LdG can understand why someone ignorant of her situation might feel compelled to disclose what they know. But understanding is not the same as agreeing.

All this inner conflict and annoyance and feelings of obligation to be civil while you are inwardly seething and I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO FEEL ANY OF THIS IF YOU WOULD HAVE JUST KEPT YOUR BIG MOUTH SHUT AND LEFT ME ALONE!

Does that explain why someone might be furious?


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: holdingontoit] #323170
11/12/13 09:06 PM
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I would want to know BUT I completely understand lg too. And I gotta say, if someone KNEW I didn't want to know and told me anyway I would be royally peeved at their gall to impose THEIR mores on MY life.

Last edited by herfuturesbright; 11/12/13 09:12 PM.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Miranda] #323191
11/12/13 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Smiling_Wife
My question to you is if you are so positive that he has been unfaithful to you why would you be furious if someone told you?


It would draw into question the justification for his post D-Day behavior. That would REALLY piss me off.

And if I knew, we'd have to talk about it. Blech.

Plus there is always the risk that I would obsess about the partner and use her perceived superior traits as a club with which to bludgeon my self esteem.

He was never home early in our marriage, and he has lived every other week in another city for the last seven years. He led and leads a whole separate life which has nothing to do with me. He could have had 50 affairs without me suspecting a thing.

Let's assume someone read for a while on the MB board, and thought "I really need to tell LadyGrey about the relationship her husband had with his admin in 2010," so they tell me.

How does that improve my life? It doesn't.

I may be "entitled" to know, but with the right to know comes the corresponding right to not know.

Originally Posted By: Miranda
I imagine it is because she doesn't feel like it is any of her business. She's just not invested in his sex life. It doesn't matter to her. Sort of like my husband doesn't really care how I format my documents in word.


Exactly. He's giving away something that means nothing to me -- may as well be a business card.

Originally Posted By: hold
I would think it is more along the lines of not wanting to be put in a position where a response is expected, when you would rather ignore the whole thing. For LdG, she is now put in a position of trying to decide how to respond. "I always suspected, that you for confirming it," said with a smile, and then changing the topic, would seem odd. Now LdG has to figure out a response that will make sense to the "informer". The informer cannot possibly know the entire backstory, because if they did, they would know that LdG did not want to be presented with this disclosure. So now LdG feels obliged to decide how much of the backstory to disclose. That is long and complex and not flattering to either LdG or her husband. All the while LdG is thinking "remind me again why I speak to you at all". Which isn't fair to the other person. Since LdG can understand why someone ignorant of her situation might feel compelled to disclose what they know. But understanding is not the same as agreeing.

All this inner conflict and annoyance and feelings of obligation to be civil while you are inwardly seething and I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO FEEL ANY OF THIS IF YOU WOULD HAVE JUST KEPT YOUR BIG MOUTH SHUT AND LEFT ME ALONE!


OMG, I never even thought about the human interaction that would be involved. If your conscience requires it, tell me but bring a gun so you can shoot me before I have to respond.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #323202
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I have become increasingly convinced that there is a whole subset of people out there who have confused "noble" with "nosy"

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323239
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
I have become increasingly convinced that there is a whole subset of people out there who have confused "noble" with "nosy"


Or maybe they cannot conceive of a person who would not want to know. All I can think is how I would want to know. That whole do unto others concept ya know.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: SmilingWife] #323248
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If I knew someone didn't Want me to do unto them I wouldn't. Understand, I would want to know too. But this Don Quixote like obsession some people have with exposing all adultery - even that of strangers - is odd to me.

I would be hurt if my best friend knew my spouse was cheating and didn't tell me. But if some stranger told me...that'd just be disturbingly creepy.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323260
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LdG, thank you for your responses. Time to post hasn't been in the cards the past few days, hopefully on the weekend. I didn't want you think I've dismissed our conversation. Lots of interesting stuff being discussed here.

might need to add 'and lots of other junk' to the thread title. lol


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: herfuturesbright] #323289
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Originally Posted By: herfuturesbright
If I knew someone didn't Want me to do unto them I wouldn't. Understand, I would want to know too. But this Don Quixote like obsession some people have with exposing all adultery - even that of strangers - is odd to me.

I would be hurt if my best friend knew my spouse was cheating and didn't tell me. But if some stranger told me...that'd just be disturbingly creepy.


I am not likely to have absolute proof of a stranger's adultery. Even if I did I doubt I would expose. But honestly I wish anyone....a stranger or not....would have exposed to me.

You can't win with everyone all the time. All we can do is what we think is the right thing at any given time.

Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #323350
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
OMG, I never even thought about the human interaction that would be involved. If your conscience requires it, tell me but bring a gun so you can shoot me before I have to respond.


See, I knew we were the same person inside, just wearing different genders on the outside. "I would obesees about the partner use their presumed superior traits as a club to bludgeon my own self-esteem" - check, exactly how I would react.


Solutions? There are none. There are decisions.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: holdingontoit] #324717
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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
OMG, I never even thought about the human interaction that would be involved. If your conscience requires it, tell me but bring a gun so you can shoot me before I have to respond.


See, I knew we were the same person inside, just wearing different genders on the outside.


Heh. Say, aren't you both lawyers? smile


**Formerly known as Cuthbert Calculus**

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Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Gladstone] #324725
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I do believe they ARE, Gladstone.... fascinating


When we open to this moment and don't judge it or try to change it, even when we're suffering and wish it were otherwise, we tap into the spaciousness of mind that allows us to move forward skillfully, with discernment and joy. -- Sharon Salzberg
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: SmilingWife] #324780
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Originally Posted By: SmilingWife
But honestly I wish anyone....a stranger or not....would have exposed to me.



Ditto. People knew (or suspected), but felt it wasnt their business. That meant I got to expereince the joys of having a loving husband turn into a cold man and no idea why.

I respect there are people who would rather not know their spouse is having an affair, and good to know that. However some of us would really like to know just what the bloody hell is going on so we can act accordingly.


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #334521
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Originally Posted By: Lil
Originally Posted By: SmilingWife
But honestly I wish anyone....a stranger or not....would have exposed to me.



Ditto. People knew (or suspected), but felt it wasnt their business. That meant I got to expereince the joys of having a loving husband turn into a cold man and no idea why.

I respect there are people who would rather not know their spouse is having an affair, and good to know that. However some of us would really like to know just what the bloody hell is going on so we can act accordingly.


Lil, I think in general that those folks are in a less acute place.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: LadyGrey] #338764
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Hmm?

Are you talking about the BA or tbe WS? and do you mean less engaged in the marriage, or less nutty smile


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Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Lil] #339425
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Better late than never, right. Again, my apology for not getting back here sooner.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I had no idea that you lived with the "nothing going on" thing for so long. I had no idea that there were financial aspects to the affair. I had no idea you had to be a sleuth.

Our sitch wasn't unique, lying and using family finances to support an A are givens. The most important aspects I learned in the beginning about A's, was to not underestimate the depth of deceit by a WS, the lengths they would go to protect their A and how much harm they would allow to a M and family, emotionally and financially. Many of us here have read horror stories and many here have lived them, stories that seem so extreme yet they're true. It makes sense to arm yourself the best you can (#1 being get your head out of the sand asap to the possible degree of damage) to prevent further harm to yourself and the family.

Quote:
Maybe the power in the polygraph had less to do with the "truth" you were getting than the fact that you were committed to creating some boundaries.

Yeah, more so with the second go round of still wanting the test. The first round was simply seeking some truth. Remember, I was learning about boundaries, not an expert at all about enforcing (do we ever get to expert levels with this???). The second go round of the test, you're right, it was about committing further to that boundary, verifying the truth I had and less about new truths I considered less important, all in that order.

Quote:
I don't believe in the accuracy of polygraphs and was taught that they are pointless in law school. I revisited that issue here -- mainly because I was astonished that people were actively promoting passing a polygraph on MB as a requirement for reconciliation (yes, Dorothy, we have gone completely insane!)

It sounded crazy to me the first time I read it being suggested to someone else. It's not a tool I'd suggest lightly to use and it's not one I'd demean if a BS was considering one. If a BS decides to use this tool and follows through, unless they give the impression they are doing it vindictively, I would support them cuz I know how difficult the process is to wrap your head around. Aside from finding it unbelievable you are going to such lengths, you open yourself up to ridicule for resorting to a poly from anyone who has not been in your shoes.

Quote:
I view MB like East Berlin -- you can't actually talk to anyone there but maybe you can influence the thinking a bit. I feared that those that followed that advice might break up their families -- impacting their CHILDREN -- based upon questionable science.

LdG, it's not the test that breaks the family up and impacts the children, it's the deceit and thoughtlessness of an A. We got past the poly episode fairly quick. The A/ deceit, took much longer to heal from and that damage was far more devastating to our M and our family than any test could be.

Quote:
I found no independent studies that confirmed accuracy beyond mere chance. And I LOOKED. And Medc presumably looked WAY harder than me, but not a one did we find. All of the studies that support the accuracy are sponsored by polygraphers. They just ARE. I didn't make that up.

I don't believe you made any of that up. I also read a lot, spoke to some people who had experience with polygraphs and who also helped me find a reputable polygraph tester. I believed there was enough accuracy for what I needed. On the flip side, a WS sponsors his/her own truths, the person who willingly and convincingly lied to your face day after day. At the time, the accuracy of my H was zero so the poly's accuracy was miles ahead that point.

Quote:
I can see, I think, using it as a tool to bring things to head. What I can't see is placing any merit in the report.

Yes, it can bring things to a head and cause a whole lot of conflict. It was that very conflict that led to squashing the elephant in the room which led to the steps leading to recovery. MaryEmma said she would take a poly if her H felt it would be helpful to him, just the offer to take one to relieve fear in her H shows more care and concern than what an actual test would confirm. Merit is measured in more than one form.

Quote:
Marriage can suck the life out of you. I had a friend who said my family put a vacuum cleaner hose in my ear and sucked the life out of me. FTR, I had to go back and edit that sentence several times to make it honest. It's shameful, really.
Divorce seemed like the Holy Grail -- someday, maybe -- or something I earned by suffering X amount, except X was never defined.

An unhealthy marriage will drain both spouses. It may be obvious in one spouse the damage being done and not so obvious in the other yet there is still hurt on both sides.
You mention yourself not defining X amount of suffering before D was earned. In my case during the unhealthy years, I looked at it as my H's job to realize the hurt he was doing and change the dynamic. Why couldn't HE see X amount of hurt, hear my X amount of hurt. Looking back now, that was backwards. It was my job to do something about my hurt other than become resentful and continually move my line up with tolerable hurt and continue to blame him for it. Blaming him was a way to avoid taking responsibility myself.

Originally Posted By: LadyG
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The test was initially offered up an opportunity to reassure me that I was safe from lies in the M regarding the OW. No brow beating, no demands. I was posting on MB at the time and brow beating/demands over this was NOT encouraged, very much frowned upon actually.

Well, that's astonishing. Are you sure? Browbeating, judging and demanding seem to be the three rails on which MB rides.

Yes, I'm sure on that. My vulnerability as a new BS put me in a spot of doing something I'd normally not do but I'd still had enough sense to rationalize out the pros and cons of what was posted to me. When you separate emotions from logistics (understanding A's help with this), goals and the means to them become more clear.

Originally Posted By: LadyG
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The second go-round re: poly was stated in the same manner but the focus was specific and life altering cuz it had to with me remaining in a M having doubts about the extent of what he'd disclosed.

What possible difference did it make? Why did you need to know?

You might have a hard time understanding this one cuz I know that honesty is not (or didn't use to be) high on your EN's list. It's #1 on mine and for as long as I can remember even before knowing about EN's. It's always been the most important. I needed to know my H was telling me a very important truth, was he even capable of that. If he wasn't able to give me one truth, what would make think anything that came out of his mouth was true. Envisioning a M of always looking over my shoulder, being afraid of the other shoe to drop, was less than appealing. I'd be miserable with growing resentment (btdt) and in turn be miserable to him and myself.

Quote:
I'm glad for y'all -- and I am being sincere.

I'll take your word on this, thank you.

Quote:
I wouldn't do it for a whole host of reasons, one of which is that what we have is so tenuous, it wouldn't survive me being hooked up to a machine being asked about orgasms.

Those types of questions weren't ever suggested to me by the forum or the tester and I don't remember reading suggestions like that on internet poly info. You figure out what truth is most important with guiding your decision to remain in the M, and go with it. It's not about how much can I humiliate my WS or make him squirm.

Originally Posted By: LadyG
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
It's all past history now. Could it have been solved a different way, I'm sure there are several ways to approach it in hindsight. It was what it was.

No doubt. Have no idea what that better way might have been but it seems to be always elusively out of reach.

The best scenario would have been a confession before d-day and that's second to no A. Elusively out of reach, as long as we learn from experiences, better ways become obvious and very reachable.

Quote:
My IC said, "turn on your 'Find my iPhone' and show him how to use it so he can see where you are." And I would have had to show him how to use it.
No, absolutely not.
My IC said, "sit down next to him one night, show him what your posting and talk to him about it."
No, absolutely not.
My IC said, "give him all your passwords to everything."
OK, fine. FINE.
Who actually knows all their passwords? I made a token effort. Hell, if I had to list all of my passwords today, it would take hours to retrieve them.
My husband used the info he got to control me.

It sounds like your IC understood transparency measures to put in place in early recovery. It's not hard to see the resistance you put up against these measures with how you've written it out. From a BS viewpoint, your interest was more in protecting yourself than relieving your H of fear and ongoing secrecy. That's the purpose of transparency in early recovery, avoiding incidents that fuel more fear/anger/mistrust. I don't know if your H used the info to control you or if he used it to control a part of his life he'd realized was so out of control and in turn you viewed it as controlling you. When independent behaviour goes from 100% to zero (or feels like it) and honesty and transparency is supposed to go from zero to 100%, I get how those drastic 'supposed to happen' transitions can be insulting. From a BS viewpoint, resistance to those transitions scream 'unsafe and dangerous'.

Quote:
I don't think you meant "undermines" A's but what is it that I do that you perceive is inconsistent with supporting recovery and marriage?

I've thought about the impression I get from some things you write and undermine is the word I come up with. I could go through your posts over the past several years and find examples but what would that prove since I'm not so sure at times you realize what you're saying is undermining aspects of A's. You believe what you think, doesn't mean it's correct or respectful towards someone who spouse had an A. All I can do is ask that you consider not all BS's are like your H (or how I perceive your view of him). Consider asking yourself when you argue for WS's rights in R (aside from physical safety), is any of it at the expense of the BS? Does any of it justify the WS's thinking for having an A or is it solely theirs to own despite how crappy the M was?
Recovery (more so early R) has to be about the BS, it just does if the BS is going to want to continue on with R. Does a WS need to be made to feel like scum, no, I believe they do that quite well to themselves but the privileges they had before d-day, need drastic reeling in. As recovery progresses and healing happens, things change, mindsets of both spouses change for the better and a M of mutual respect unfolds. But, you gotta get through the lousy phases of early recovery, first.
Even if you can't imagine the pain and destruction a BS feels, consider having the appreciation for it.

Quote:
I think there is a corresponding boundary of not punishing your spouse for honesty.
And honestly, I don't thing we will ever get there because he gets SO MAD when I express anything that could be remotely labeled at critical.
SO MAD.
Perhaps I should have set a high bar, but I wasn't exactly in a position to do so, right?

I'm not sure what timeline you're talking about here, initially post d-day or the present, it seems like both. My little rant above about early R suggests that no, you weren't in a position to set any bar. Remember I also said as R progresses, this changes. While things may not have changed in your situation, a R where both spouses are on board, dynamics change, eventually. I agree with the boundary of not punishing your spouse for honesty. Post d-day and early R (let's say a year or so) we still had our fair share of rough moments where I'm sure my H could have felt punished for his honesty although he said nothing.

Quote:

I do believe that poor boundaries allow affairs.

Don't ever allow yourself to be in a position where an affair is an option and you won't have and affair, regardless of how incredibly miserable you are. You can be incredibly miserable for decades ( I KNOW) without having an affair.

Agree poor boundaries allow affairs to begin, it doesn't stop there, I don't think. When a mindset of deserving happiness for example, shifts from fixing issues in the M to seeking happiness from someone outside the M, an A becomes an option when the opportunity arises. People can't live in a gated life forever, there will always be opportunities. Heck, internet forums are opportunities for someone who rarely leaves home.

Quote:
I have a whole bunch of stuff from which to recover, and after about a billion hours of therapy I developed a highly sophisticated, color coded balloon system.

Sadly, I haven't seen a better approach.

I'm not sure tons of therapy would've helped me get anywhere more quickly. Basically, some junk I had to toss into the garbage. The past is the past, some of which I had control over and some not.
Recognizing my own role helped. While my H was in his A, I'd started working through how we got to such an unhappy state in our M. I went backwards with events one by one cuz I couldn't pin point when it started. I looked at things he'd done and then looked at the fact that with each crappy thing, I did have a choice with how I reacted. I couldn't beat myself up for choosing how I reacted (sometimes this choice was as simple as staying in the M) cuz that's all I was capable of at the time. By the time d-day came, I'd already started looking at my own junk and I was determined not to fall back into old habits.
From there it was recognizing how I coped and this was the hardest. It's that looking in the mirror and knowing what a jerk I could be even when I didn't want to. For as hard as my mirror looking was, accepting my part was like a weight lifted off. Doesn't make sense, does it. You'd think I'd feel better believing I had no responsibility for the state of our M. It wasn't that way for me with what I was processing. Maybe it had to with taking back control despite viewing myself in a negative light. Not sure.

Originally Posted By: LdG
Originally Posted By: Vitt
Is autonomy lost, sure, and it's heavier on the WS side for a period of time. That changes as the M is rebuilt. The question is whether or not the investment is worth the change in mindset and lifestyle and it goes for both spouses.


It was not my experience that it went for both spouses. I'm 100% clear that nothing in his life changed. He still travels for work every other week and had since 2006. He still hunts through the winter months at his lease. He still places a huge priority on skiing.

It has not been my experience that that changes as the marriage is rebuilt.

Where R and a better M is the goal for both spouses, the BS loses independence too. I did a lot of stuff on my own, a lot. Now all of a sudden, we're having to spend time with each other, I'm having to ask him about all sorts of stuff which before I just went ahead and did or made a decision about something on my own. It was a big adjustment for me.

Quote:
You know the only thing that has changed Vitt? The ONLY thing that changed? He stopped blowing up at me.

That is it. And it actually happened last March 9 at my father's 86th birthday party and if you missed the posts on that, since deleted, that SUCKED.

It won the "This sucks for 2013 Family Situation Award".

I'm kind of proud.

You have options, LdG.

Last edited by Lil; 03/14/14 07:39 AM. Reason: Edited at OP's request

26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Vittoria] #339428
03/13/14 01:31 PM
03/13/14 01:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
Squeaky Tree Offline
Member
Squeaky Tree  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,407
Not quite here
I wish you were around more Vitt, you have explained beautifully the way you feel about the poly and the benefit it was to your marriage.

J too has lost that freedom (or was it a constraint?) of doing our own think that we had before the A. We look to each other all the time now to amke sure we are not trampling on eahc other and so that we know the other cares about each others schedule.

Transparency has some real benefits and I am pleased for the difference in my M.


Married 22years (this year) ~13y since dday(?)
DD17 DS14
Which way do you like yourself? ~ Stosny
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Squeaky Tree] #339432
03/13/14 01:52 PM
03/13/14 01:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
You are such a sweetie, ST, thank you.
I feel like we've also found the balance between our/mine/H's time.

Transparency having benefits, you put that a good way.

xxx


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Squeaky Tree] #339437
03/13/14 02:08 PM
03/13/14 02:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Ace Offline
Advocate
Ace  Offline
Advocate
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,535
Originally Posted By: Squeaky Tree
I wish you were around more Vitt, you have explained beautifully the way you feel about the poly and the benefit it was to your marriage.


I've missed you, too, V. Glad you're able to pop in now and then. Hope it can be more of "now" than "then" soon.

I appreciated your journey via the polygraph route. I am one of the few blessed ones who mentioned it to my H (after I learned about them on MB) and he quickly said "sign me up, anytime, any place and I'll do it."

That (and something else he said earlier) gave me the foundation I needed to begin rebuilding trust. The other thing he had done was on D-Day one when he admitted that he had made earlier attempts to cheat about which I would have never known. Also, we were seeing our tough MC at the time, (after the highly-trained and most expensive MC proved he knew nothing about overcoming infidelity).

I think it's the "thought of the poly" more than the actual test itself that could prove to be more telling and produce more truth. Like LdG says, the test is not reliable anyway.

Again, great to see you, V and thanks for your insights.

Ace

Last edited by Ace; 03/13/14 02:10 PM. Reason: To note that this was my 2801st post and I did not even notice 2800! My OCD (for x5's) is waning!!!

We're overcoming decades of marital dysfunction including abuse, passive aggression, gas-lighting & infidelity (both of us).

Our Weird and Ongoing Story
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: Ace] #339627
03/14/14 12:32 AM
03/14/14 12:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Vittoria Offline
Member
Vittoria  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted By: Ace
I appreciated your journey via the polygraph route. I am one of the few blessed ones who mentioned it to my H (after I learned about them on MB) and he quickly said "sign me up, anytime, any place and I'll do it."

Oh Ace, yes, how blessed we were. What a time, huh.
The way your H was so willing, yes, says a mitt full about what you already knew from the info he gave.

Quote:
The other thing he had done was on D-Day one when he admitted that he had made earlier attempts to cheat about which I would have never known.

This makes a big difference too. If WS's would only realize it's so much better to come clean with all of it at one time. Kind of like smack me once hard rather than 100 mediocre smacks.

Always good to see you too! Thanks Ace.
xx


26 yrs. married
There's nothing more powerful than a woman with an open heart ......
Re: Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) [Re: OurHouse] #445528
05/20/21 07:31 AM
05/20/21 07:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Lil Offline

Member
Lil  Offline

Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,566
New Zealand
Bump


AKA Lildoggie

Just found out about your spouses affair?
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