2-3

Hey all....anyone remember me?

I was banned from MB because I didn't drink the Kool-aid or participate in the ritual sacrafices.

Yes I am still alive. I was indisposed with my own life.

Unfortunatly I find myself as a big cross roads. My now former fiance walked out on us in may 2 months prior to our wedding. We had a small private ceremony (only) for us before the big day but I guess it wasn't as important to him.

He I guess let his fears get the best of him and began having an affair with a married (yes still)dispatcher who he chatted to all night while he was on duty at the police station. She has 2 kids and her husband found out a week before I did. He did not see it coming. WF is still currently seeing the troll as we have dubbed her and as a few I know here can atest...he really affaird down...BIG TIME.

He left me with all the animals and house (I had to get a roomate) and one heartbroken little boy. He does not understand why dad won't come see him. His only request for his birthday was to spend time with dad. I told him in an age appropriate manner it probally wasn't going to be possible.

Since WF threatens a restraining order if I don't talk to him through the intermediary who doesn't even want to deal with him anymore as she is so fed up with him. I couldn't even ask or get a message to him with the request. DS didn't even get a call and that hurt the most. I did my best to try and keep him busy and happy that day but it did affect him.

He spews the Wayward script...I wasn't happy for months...This was never going to work....just let me go so I can make my own mistakes...If you love something let it go if it's ment to be it'll come back. When a week before the affair started he wrote letters to me he never gave me and I found later. They stated how he loved me and wanted to be with me but he was worried he wasn't ready to get married yet.

I found out about the affair on mothersday....I got into his phone and had to run to the bathroom to vomit. I woke him up out of a sound sleep. I was furious he had been sleeping with the troll and then coming home and climbing in bed with me. I also called her on his phone and told her what I though of her. We had an emotional day full of tears. He told me he wanted to take me to dinner and get ready. He left to go to target to get me a present for mothersday. I got a text dinner was off and he was moving out because he found out I went through his phone. we argued for 45 min by text and he came home.

He began moving stuff out shortly after taking his time. Nuclear exposure happened. His mother who herself experienced his father walking out on the family 17 years prior (she still has not gotten over that trauma)was furious. She canceled the trip she had planned to alaska with WF in hopes to teach him a lesson. This infuriated him. I read the emails she wrote him in defense of me. As of currently He doesn't talk to any of his family because when he does they try to talk to him about making the right decisions and he just doesn't want to hear it. He has however let his father back in who has accepted OW and her family.

Well after he found out what I had done and how his public image at work also had been marred by his decision (his supervisor set him down and asked him to get counseling)he planned to clean out our house. Upon pure instinct I had the locks re keyed that day. In the afternoon I got a scathing text message. He apparently was not on his way to his mothers to try and talk his way out of his hole he had gone to the house.

I eventually made arraingments for him to come by and get stuff but in the presence of witnesses and I refused to let him take the Big items like TV and laptop we had bought together. He eventually gave them to me. He also recently paid for my wedding dress and a few other bridesmaids dresses which picked up and he has to sell and share the proceeds.

Last night was the worst of it. The county fair is on here. I had photography entries into the fair. He decided to enter as well with pictures of my pets and did not get permission from me to use the images....I also have the raw images on MY laptop. My pets to me are like kids and I was very angry he tried to use them to win a contest for money. So I went to the director and he was disqualified.

Then it happened....I guess my mother saw them first (she was not with us) and she advised WF she expected half the cost of my wedding dress back when he sold it. He tried to say he was selling it for cheaper and she said no you can sell it for X amount I want my money back. All he could do was say OK.

Then we (my roomate, the kids, and myself) ran into the she troll on the fairway.

She was scared...I have never seen someone look like they were about to get a serious beat down. Her eyes were like saucers.

But she was walking toward my son when I saw her and gave her the glare of death. I was ready to protect my child because she was WAY too close to him for my taste. She backed down the stairs the whole time and went the opposite direction slowly. She kept turning around and mad dogging me so I yelled loud enough for everyone to hear "YES I SEE YOU. KEEP WALKING" and she left. I have a feeling WF was not far away hiding behind a planter.

Her husband (he hates his wife now) text me and told me to be nice..she wouldn't hurt anyone...really? I told him flat out are we talking about the same person who cheated on her husband and went after another womans? That to me is a seriously flawed character. He can't take it when I point these things out and told me...thats enough.

So I am in limbo. I still love a man who doesn't deserve me. it's a catch 22. My heart still carries him and I have been trying to figure out why? I tried deying it and made it a month before all my emotions came back with a vengence.

I sacrificed so much for this man and gave myself completely. I tried to instill the good MB values and concepts in our relationship to safe guard us. But apparently it didn't work.
I know I am a hot mess *le sigh*

{{{SIHW}}}
and welcome to MA

Sucks to be the BS, and for the second time. Love takes a jolly long time to fade away. I think you using an IM is a great thing and that it will help.

So Troll went crying to her stbx about mean ol' SIHW picking on her at the fair huh? *snort*

He I think doth protest too much.

He says he doesn't want her back but gets really bent out of shape if anyone says she's an adulteror....etc.

His oldest daughter had a birthday party in june....WF basically kicked the man out of his own childs party. I went off on WF and told him directly he had no right to be there as she wasn't even his child. He had excuses of course (I told them they were excuses) but he knew he was wrong. I bet that is why he did not go to the baby's 1st birthday party last month.

Her husband realizes now he should have stood up for his right to be there and not let them run him out of his family celebration.

It's weird I know I should know this but it's just mind boggling seeing it in action. WF litterally is a different person. It is like a switch flipped one day he went from normal loving WF to the evil scheming @!#$^$#.

My other issue is I have lost faith in dating and people in general.

No one respects love or vows anymore and there are waaaaaay to many people willing to accept and enable adultery now a days.

In all honesty befor WF came along I was considering cutting that aspect out of my life completely. i had been hurt enough...but then he came along the knight in shinging armour and pushed his way into my life. I was very hesitant to even get involved because I didn't want to get hurt again. But he went out of his way to convince me and I said god what are you trying to tell me and I gave in I gave him the chance.

The way I feel might seem silly to some people but After what I have experienced with WF (the deep love and commitment) I feel I don't want to replace it. It was enough for me. I don't want to put myself or my son through anymore. I will not be dating or including anyone in my life in that position. Partly because I don't want us getting hurt. And partly because I still love him very much..the man I knew and it feels very wrong to betray that even if he is just a memory now.

I know what some will say...give it time. You will heal. Yes I have heard that 20 different ways through sunday. I know me. I know I have this loyalty and sense of truthful/faithfulness that I don't want to change in me. If I deny how I feel and try to brush it off it will never feel right. This was no fleeting love for me. This was deep, connected, and measureless. In all truth he to me is the love of my lifetime. It's hard to explain and I wish I could ball up what I feel and push it into other people to help them understand it.

I just accept that this is how I feel and it's mine and mine alone to feel the burden.

I feel really bad about the way alot of new BH's seem to loose testicular fortitude in the face of a WW.

If he thinks he is going to get her back by kow-towing to her, he's off mark.

I dunno he definately goes through his moods and posts them on FB.

He may one days say he hates her and doesn't want her back but the next he's down and feeling alone and all that? Denial maybe?

SIHW,

It could be denial, it could also be immaturity.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the decision that you'd like to opt out of the dating scene for a while. You've been through a lot and I'd rather see you put the majority of your energy in the other man in your life....your son.

Especially after being hurt badly, the experience leaves people so vulnerable that it's hard to make clear choices. When you feel completely comfortable and at peace with your emotional independence, is when you'll attract the sort of partner you really want.

I don't want a partner. I am done with partners seriously. I think gradually this world is getting to the point where no one is trust worthy anymore. I don't want another person in my life at all anymore.

It's just me and my boy. And I do very much so put all my life into my son.

Yes I still love WF and nothing could ever replace what I feel for him. Because it was always enough for me it is the greatest love I ever felt and gave to anyone.

But I am no longer willing to allow another person in my life like that. It's too risky and I don't want to take anymore chances.

My mom never remarried. She just died this January, and we were going through her stuff and we found a journal where she said she had wanted to, but my older brother threw such a stink about it that she just quit, worried about him. And later, she felt too awkward to get back into the dating scene. Imagine the guilt my brother now carries, knowing that she remained single (partly) because of him.

OTOH, she often said she couldn't even imagine the idea of having to deal with another person in her house.

I know how she feels. My biggest dream is to be alone - just alone. It sounds like heaven.

I understand her and your feelings.

I mainly have no trust in men anymore. well relationships I should say. I look around after going through this a second time and I see people I know breaking up and getting divorced and it's like WTH is going on in this world. People having affairs and family and friends supporting it. No one seems to respect love anymore and use the term so freely. Hell WF was telling the troll he loved her 1 week into being with her.

I see people totally disrespecting the vows they made to a person before god and witnesses. I just want to slap them and say HELLO were you paying attention when you said your wedding vows or are you just stupid?

To me this world is going to hell in a handbasket. People don't have the love, honor, or respect anymore that past generations had. Like my grandparents who have been married over 55 years.

It's the way people were raised the last 50 years. Thank you, Dr. Spock! It all started with him - don't hurt your baby's feelings, make him feel good, the rest will fall into place.

No, it won't!

People NEED to accomplish things, work for things, respect things, VALUE things.

Kids who are handed everything value nothing. Kids who are never pushed to strive never care. Kids who are spoiled become selfish and don't care who they hurt.

And add to that, the parents themselves are so busy finding self- and instant-gratification, they ignore the kids and don't give them the one-on-one that kids need - that is where they absorb morals and beliefs. Instead, they spend 3-7 hours a day watching reality TV and video games. And don't even eat dinner with the family any more - so yet another opportunity to impart values, create bonds, out the window.

I'm glad I won't be around much longer.

EXACTLY!

I make my son earn his rewards I don't just hand them over. Not only that the whole don't spank your kids crap never flew with me. My son rarely ever calls for that type of punishment but I am not opposed to it if it is neccessary.

For the most part I try to keep us out of the house unless we are sick. I try to keep us active. Sunshine and all. Only thing is WF got him hooked on video games....the nintendo DS while it's great sometimes it is the vain of my existence somedays.

Now that I have a roomate who also has 2 kids of our own it makes dinners very hard. Some nights I prefer just my son and I sharing a meal but it's weird eating it infront of other people. I also don't want them relying on me for dinner. Roomate I have noticed is a bit of an opportunist. But I can't make rent without her right now.

Ack it's lunch time....BBIAB.

The rule I had with Leah growing up is, during school months, she got one hour of tv and 30 minutes of computer on weekdays, and 2 hours of tv and 1 hour of computer on the weekends - assuming homework was done and room was clean. Other times, she was expected to entertain herself with books or piano or outside or friends. She was fine with that.

Maybe. I do agree that an emphasis on valuing something because it was hard earned has a role to play, although quite a small one, and we tend to value things less. However, this is a very minor, even incidental, force going on.

First of all, we need to realize that the roles in relationships, and the things we expect from those relationships, has drastically changed. The role our relationships play in our lives has changed dramatically. It used to be, by and large, that the marital commitment was not a love one, at the very least not primarily. It was a practical one, and also a dependent one. (You can see this in many cultures to this very day.)

Women needed a man to provide protection. Well, we don't in the US anymore. Hordes of marauding bandits do not roam the country side, and in any case we have police who can be there within minutes, security systems, etc. Women needed a man to provide sustenance (food) or income, because that entailed a lot of labor women's bodies are not suited towards. We don't anymore, due to technological and economic development. We are not in an Agrarian age, and we have machines to perform strenuous labor tasks. We can get a service job, make money, and buy what we need.

Now, this economic dependency literally meant that a woman - and especially one with children - had little, if any, viable option to remaining married. And so they did. With political and economic empowerment, things changed. You can see this in any industrialized nation where women have achieved relative economic and political parity. The divorce rate suddenly spikes on a hockey stick curve, and then stabilizes. Our divorce rate has been fairly constant since the 70's.

The statistical outliers (exceptions) to this rule are the (very few, like 2) countries with a strong main religion, but they have not escaped entirely. All this really means is that the divorce rate is kept artificially low (below what it would be) due to social stigma. It does not mean the difference is made up by happy marriages.

By and large, men were expected to marry, and historically, in order to pass their possessions on to their children, the children needed to be legally recognized (which, for most of human history, meant religiously recognized). They also needed someone to care for those children, and maintain domestic responsibilities.

Marriages now, at least here in the US, are not based upon practicality or necessity. They are optional. What we expect from our spouses is also entirely different. We expect, as a matter of course, emotional support and fulfillment.

This is where we get to the 2/3 problem. 2/3 of divorces in the US are filed for by women. The myth of men leaving marriages does not bear out statistically. The majority are women ending the marriage. Why?

My personal hypothesis (and shared by several much more qualified individuals) is that men are socialized less to deal with the changing expectations of them. Children model behavior - particularly gender behavior - early, so mostly this is modeled after their fathers. They mostly expect and are equipped to work and bring income, but the emotional aspect is not to the level to meet the expectations they later find themselves faced with.

Women, on the other hand, have historically been the maintainers of the emotional aspects of family. They are socialized accordingly. Indeed, keeping your husband happy was the means of not only continuing to ensure a roof over your head and food, it was often the means of getting the little "wants". I have a book published in the 1940's that makes me nauseous. It suggests having sex with your husband every night, and having your make-up on every time he sees you, etc - AS A MEANS OF GETTING NEW APPLIANCES WHEN YOURS NO LONGER WORK. Anyway, the "keeping the spouse emotionally happy" part was, and is, something more emphasized (albeit imperfectly) by women than men.

From a sociological standpoint, this worked quite well, until women were no longer economically dependent.

Second of all, we need to seriously question the assumption that every generation has that their parents' generation didn't have the same problem. A really good book about this subject is "The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap" by Stephanie Koontz. The bottom line: when our parents suggested - or stated - that "we never did that" - they lie. The only thing we can say with certainty that they did less often, depending upon when your parents were born, is divorce.

Infidelity has been quite common, and even assumed, throughout history. Indeed, it is a purely monogamous relationship that has been the rarity. Polygyny, concubines, mistresses... noble women, to some degree, could even get away with it in Europe after they had given their husband an heir.

As a society, our attitude is not more accepting of infidelity. I'll have to look up the link, it was a study highlighted 2-3 weeks ago, but it found that the respondents agreed that the worst thing you could do is cheat on a partner. Only 6% said it was acceptable. It ranked as more unacceptable than murder.

Oh, crud. I forgot to mention that the other major sociological change that has occurred is greater gender integration between unrelated individuals of the opposite sex, particularly in the work force. Shirley Glass covers this subject well.

Now see this is where I bring up one of his "excuses". Even his father stated the same thing when he was told of his son's infidelity.

They started blaming it on genetics of the males in the family.

to quote WF father:

"Like father like son--my dad cheated on my mom, I cheated on WF's mom, and the saga continues. If WF never has his own son--it will end. He is the last male in the clan.
I'm sorry."

now his father has gone to the lengths of accepting OW and her family....while WF mother wanta absolutely nothing to do with any of them.

Now maybe since WF sister has shunned her own father because of his dealings with their mother he doesn't want to ostricize the only child who will accept him. But I still think whats happeneing is wrong.

Through out history we have seen serial cheaters perfect example Henry the VII. He had the power to get what he wanted. But once independance was gained from the crown, while people still could committ adultery I still saw people as having more respect for marriage. maybe spirituality had something to do with it....I am not completely sure....but is it possible as people lost the respect of the church and as henry forced people to abandon their religion at one time is it possible they abandoned the respect and beliefs in god and the commandments? or is it a genetic flaw in the species?

IMO, the reason this plays a more important role is that people today place less emphasis on external and more on internal. Not just on valuing objects, but the whole new persona of the 'me' generation - it's aptly named. It's already a recognized phenomenon in the HR world, that HR departments have to take into account the latest generation's expectations of more, at less effort.

When I grew up, one didn't think of not putting their hand on their chest during the Anthem. Today, half the people don't even pay attention. Along with your assertion is the aspect that people no longer fear anything. God doesn't control us nearly as much as He used to, as we don't center our lives around our weekly church trips. We no longer have the draft, kids can't be punished in school any more, and if you don't like something just sue; so most youths these days never are put in a position of having to answer to a higher authority, until they get in the workplace and hit a brick wall. "What do you mean I can't come in late? I had things to do!"

IMO, that carries over into the marriage arena.

I have to agree with cat on that....the younger generations I do believe don't have to work as hard or get punished as severly. If they arn't having to work in those aspects why would they think marriage is something that should be worked out. Children also so live by example.

Which is what I fear with my son. 2 men have walk out of our lives. I am doing my best to make sure he knows it's wrong and he had better never do it to anyone...but I really fear what he has experienced.

And it isn't just the "Men." Women cheat in roughly equal numbers, after all with whom are the husbands cheating? Yea, there are hos out there, but there are also cougar dens, and from my own 20s, pressure cookers.

So you raise your son to be faithful and true. And then the critter he marries falls into an infatuation at work and then son gets the shock of his life, pays alimony and has to watch while some other guy raises his kids and he is stuck with being an every other weekend dad.

I am seriously disgusted by a "Me first" society that promotes "No fault" divorce. Yea, and I can rant about gold diggers, serial adulterers, abusers and all the sad deals that are part of the task of living.

About the only good thing I can find with the economy, of late, is that the divorce lawyers are seeing a downturn in divorces. It seems that people are staying home and keeping their zippers and panties up in greater numbers.

Or they simply can't afford to divorce. That's been the source of several good articles. When the economy recovers, what do you think will happen? People who really want to divorce can only be convinced otherwise by a change in the marital situation, if at all.

Honestly, guys, lack of divorce does not equal marital success, or lack of infidelity. It never has, and that's my point. Yes, you have a lower divorce rate when people do not have options, but that's hardly a stellar claim to success.

You will never see me justifying infidelity, but this idea that it was so much better in previous generations is a facade. The idea that 50% of marriages end in divorce is way too high of a statistic that happened too quickly to blame on a sudden, unevidenced, abdication of ethics and morality. The explanation is too simplistic, and not very deep.



Well, sometimes the guys cheat with the same women, who are often professionals. Women are rapidly catching up on the infidelity, almost matching men now.



I like no fault divorce. I had one. I had to. After hearing that I couldn't go for physical abuse, because I had stayed with him so long after it occurred, and hearing the same thing about the adultery, I really had no other option. I stayed so he would fix it, hardly a "me first" attitude, but he never did. If I hadn't had the option of no fault divorce, I still wouldn't have lived with him for another minute of my life, nor spent the rest of my life as a nun because I made a mistake and married someone like my ex. In fact, I'll be blunt. The "to death do us part" would have started to become an option. One of us would be in the hospital or dead, and the other in prison.

It's pretty easy to jump up on a pedestal and declare everyone (or most people) who has a no-fault divorce people who are "me first" and have no morals, but it's a hasty generalization about situations of which people know little and would do well to ask a few more questions before condemning others in such harsh terms.

I think marriage is very important. My marriage was sacred, if I can indeed still use the word (Atheist). I don't quite look at it the same way that you do. Some people abuse and neglect their marriages, never wishing to change or do anything to protect or nurture it, and these people shouldn't have the privilege of being in one. The sacred is not reserved for such people.



Funny, the purchasing power of median income has been stagnant since the 70's, and studies show people are working longer hours. The 40 hour work week, for professionals like myself anyway, no longer exists.



Well, a significant number of people do. I don't, for which I am truly thankful. I don't believe in god, so we'd best avoid that discussion. I doubt it would be comfortable for you.



They can be punished, just not with physical violence. (Actually, in this state they can.) Discipline doesn't require physical violence. I don't hold the schools responsible for the discipline of children. I give responsibility their parents, period. Teaching children all the things you state is the parent's responsibility, as they are the ones who had the kids.

There is no excuse. More and more I'm wishing I would just get around to writing my article/blog on the secular case for marital fidelity.



Interesting. Not sure where I ever brought up genetics. However, it is true that humans are not genetically predisposed to monogamy - neither men nor women. However, that in no way excuses entering willingly into an agreement (contract, actually) to be sexually faithful and then violating that contract.

My analogy always has been that I'm not genetically predisposed to defecate in a toilet, but somehow I manage to do it all the same.



I don't see him mentioning genetics, but rather a tendency in the family by which such behavior is normalized and modeled early after their fathers.

However, also not an excuse. Yes, so your mommy/daddy said/did this...so now that you are all grown up and a "big boy" now, what do you think?



Yes, it is hurtful, and probably should be handled differently and better.



Not just Henry. What do you think Royal Courtesans were?



Respect for it, or no other option? A mixture of both?



Not really. It has more to do with the temporal power of the religion and its leaders. The US is far more spiritual than most of Western Europe, for example, yet the divorce rate is higher among Evangelicals than among Atheists. Divorce rates by religious belief Evangelicals: Why do we have the highest divorce rate?



No, and it hardly matters in the area of adultery. It's managed to be proscribed in every major religion, even those predating Judaism. It isn't religiously dependent. After all, I don't believe in any deity at all, and I don't think infidelity is ok.



I don't know that I'd call it a flaw, but we are not genetically predisposed to monogamy, particularly not in the long term. Humans not predisposed to monogamy As I said, still not an excuse.

I am SO going to remember this one!

AGR



I am not against no fault. I am for alternatives depending on the situation. There are folks who NEED no fault and there are times when a well planned adultery or abuse cause needs doing. It just depends. One size does not fit all, yet as currently written in most states, one size is about all that is available.



Oh my gawd. . . What a great analogy! That goes into my long term memory bank right now!



Want me to send you a round2it?

You accurately listed reasons for the decline in divorce rates. That wasn't what I was trying to focus on, which is the decline in adultery, a different deal and just one component in the decline in divorce rates.

Just to codify one reason for the decline in adultery that has entered my brain cell to sort out, there is the issue of consequences; people are tending to get the idea that the world is changing and they might want to hunker down to the status quo while things sort themselves out instead of horsing around. Not as much money to cat around with is also a factor. I understand that the ho business has fallen off big time.

I now need to find my supply of wooden round2its I stashed somewhere. *grin*

Larry

How about a new term? No-try divorce. This means that you seek divorce as the first "solution" to any marital problem, foregoing any attempt at fixing the problem or marital counseling. I'm against no-try divorce.



Wow. Usually the response to my analogy is..."Ewwwwwwww!!!"



Adultery is an entity all its own. You have have divorce without it, and marriages that stay together in spite of it. I just think that we need to realize that the expectations we have of marriage are so much different than they were before, and that infidelity, even common infidelity, isn't a modern development.

Personally, I want to see true marital success. In spite of the fact that I get increasingly pessimistic about it, I still hold it as my ideal.

Hey in that case I can say he's full of $&^% right?

Sorry for the late response I have been away all weekend and just got back today.