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Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: Fiddler] #82228
03/16/11 04:37 PM
03/16/11 04:37 PM
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Nolo contendere.

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #82267
03/16/11 05:40 PM
03/16/11 05:40 PM
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Welcome, TC_Manhattan. Glad you've joined us!


"I feel sad that I focused so much on his potential and so little on mine."
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: NewEveryDay] #82366
03/16/11 11:08 PM
03/16/11 11:08 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
How do you keep from creating resentment dealing with someone who wants to be known, but isn't interested in knowing you?
Yup. Tis a bad situation. How do you not create resentment in this situation? Well, I am not sure it is possible. Better question is how to deal with, not avoid, the resentment building?

You may contemplate whether you are enabling this person.

Oh, and another thought, this is the normal situation between a parent and a kid. You might ask how to parents keep from creating resentment with a kid who wants/needs to be know, but is not interested in knowing you. Parenting can be real tough.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #82372
03/16/11 11:19 PM
03/16/11 11:19 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: TC_Manhattan
Maybe it has to do with boundary issues and the expectation (unspoken) that I am willing to "listen to you" if you are willing to "listen to me". Then, when this isn't reciprocated, I have resentment that my expectation has not been met. (Does that sound right? It's how I read N*E*D's comment.)
This is certainly how I feel sometimes, then I realize it's up to me to make my expectations clear up front (about wanting to be heard). Then I only have "me" to get mad at when it doesn't happen. (Oh, oh, I just gave up the "passive master" spot! )
Good thinking, and yeah, I do think in that frame in might be Passive Master. Victims/slaves don't seem to get mad much. They have dreams, but mostly focus on other people's needs. When I am complaining, [Bleep!] about a situation, and waiting for someone else to fix it, now that seems Passive Master to me. (Recall that in my theories, everyone is everything, but not at the same time. And the goal is to get the hell out of the Valley of the Masters altogether.)

The situation with your partner seems mostly Slave-like. Let's see. "I want a relationship in which we both chat safely with each other - both are buddies. I want that. To try to get my needs, I go first, with the dream/fantasy/expectation that my partner will become a partner and respond nicely. My partner doesn't respond. I feel resentful, betrayed, nailed, screwed (me being a bit dramatic), but say nothing."

Is that kinda how you see the situation?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #82450
03/17/11 03:42 AM
03/17/11 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: fddlr3
And you've expressed to them how you want to share your thoughts as well as listen, and it still continues.


Heck no. These are folks that I'm not on that level of intimate with. That's the root issue, I am pretending to be intimate, to be the real me, with folks that I am not truly intimate with yet. Wow, you're good! So then the solution is obvious, choose, just for today, to get a step closer to this person, or take a step back instead of pretending to be close.

Originally Posted By: fddlr3
When I judge that they do feel heard (and IRL this is very evident), I might say something like "I have some thoughts I'd like to share, and I wonder if there is openness to hearing them." The answer may be "yes" or "no" (and sometimes a "yes" is really a "no").


Thanks for the example, that helps me, in real time, to remember things that are honest to say.

And yes, in marriage, we got to a point where we had so much good time together in a week, that there would be plenty of opportunity for both folks to both know and be known. What a gift while we had it.

And it's funny, bringing my focus to this dynamic, I spent time with one of these folks who does much of the talking today. I used my quiet time while I was following the story to think through that this person will be okay if I start changing up the conversation, so I did, and it was okay, and the conversation did change to one of equals. And if it didn't happen today, I wasn't feeling resentful, but was looking at it as a growth opportunity, how do I want to deal with these situations, let me try some things and see what happens.

Originally Posted By: Al
You might ask how to parents keep from creating resentment with a kid who wants/needs to be know, but is not interested in knowing you. Parenting can be real tough.


I think kids more than make up for this by being so engrossingly adorable for so long. It takes years of being a teen before we would be able to bear seeing them go, and even then it can be tough. Have you seen this? Charlie Bit Me



"I have everything I need." and "I am exactly where I am supposed to be." ~Louise Hays
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #82468
03/17/11 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle


The situation with your partner seems mostly Slave-like. Let's see. "I want a relationship in which we both chat safely with each other - both are buddies. I want that. To try to get my needs, I go first, with the dream/fantasy/expectation that my partner will become a partner and respond nicely. My partner doesn't respond. I feel resentful, betrayed, nailed, screwed (me being a bit dramatic), but say nothing."

Is that kinda how you see the situation?


BINGO! You nailed it, Al. That's exactly it!

(P.S. That's me validating you validating me, not Master Talk)
thumbsup claps Thanks!

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: NewEveryDay] #82778
03/17/11 09:31 PM
03/17/11 09:31 PM
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Love the video! Somehow it seems to be a metaphor for ... something. I just can't quite put my finger in on it. wink

Glad to have been of some assistance.

I love the example of shifting the conversation to what you wanted to talk about. Perhaps previously you were afraid of speaking up, and now you are recognizing that you do have a voice that can be heard equally with theirs. Great stuff!


"Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know that one is me."
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #83082
03/18/11 02:51 PM
03/18/11 02:51 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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I picked the following piece out of FH's postings as I believe it focuses on what I believe is a defining point between he and I and our beliefs.
Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
It tends to come down to the issue of "authority" to set what is true and what is false and the consequences of acceptance or rebellion. If "truth" is removed from the "equation," then all that's left is simple relativism and "anything" anyone wants or desires becomes "truth," with that "truth" being the same thing as "right and good."


One rule I am going to try to follow in this thread is to post only a couple of points at a time and then wait for FH's response with only a couple of points (hopefully). I don't know if this will be slow enough, but I think slowing down is well worth it - particularly when differences of opinions may be great.

Actually for me the critical issue in Marriage relates to authority - or as I frame it in my office - who makes the decisions.

My second point will be about MasterTalk. If I have written that you should never use Mastertalk, well that's an interesting and hasty thought. I don't believe it. I can easily think of times when MasterTalk seems appropriate. Generally I see three times: when acknowledged "property" is involved, when acknowledged "expertise" is involved or when acknowleged "urgency" is involved.

By property I am using my concepts on boundaries. If a thought, feeling, body part, piece of property, worth, or time issue is mine, I get to use MasterTalk on it. E.g. "My elbow hurts." or "My thoughts are my best." I think are fine statements and are often MasterTalk. The "I" is clearly a part of these statements.

By expertise I am referring to a clear situation where one person is much acknowledged more knowledgeable. e.g. Biblical Scholar to layman student, "The purpose of the Book of Job was to challenge the Deuteronomic Dogma that wealthy people must be blessed or they wouldn't be wealthy." I think that is a nice MasterTalkie statement from a "teacher."

I had a friend, a Pastor, who found that from the pulpit if he didn't use MasterTalk the whole sermon sounded weird and stupid. He tried it for some time. He suggested that perhaps the purpose of a pulpit was, like a lecturn, to create this acknowleged "expertise" situation.

By urgency I am referring to a situation where "we gotta make quick decisions." E.g. landing an airplane, the pilot becomes Master and gives orders and says MasterTalk during the landing. Same is true if I step out of my house at 2am, notice the red glow of fire, see a fire department and fire chief in front of me. I want some quick MasterTalk right then.

Out side those situations, I believe MasterTalk is a cue to something else. For me that appearance of MasterTalk is a cue to bullying (active or passive) and/or irresponsibility. I call it the Valley of the Masters and it seems to me all about "who makes decisions" in a relationship and who gets to be irresponsible. Who has the authority? in a democracy? From my point of view, this is one of the reasons Marriages fall apart - the foolish assumption of authority over that which is not yours, or the foolish renunciation of authority over that which is yours. (The word "foolish" is my opinion.)



Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #83153
03/18/11 05:09 PM
03/18/11 05:09 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: TC_Manhattan
BINGO! You nailed it, Al. That's exactly it!
Very cool. Ok let's pull this one apart using PreValidation. That means that I affirm that every bit of it makes sense to you, and I can guess at that sense.

Quote:
I want a relationship in which we both chat safely with each other - both are buddies. I want that.
This I believe is a great starting point. I call it the Biological Dream and I believe it is in everyone. I think this desire is absolutely beautiful. I also believe part of who people are is that they want this for everyone - want others to be buddies and even like seeing people who are.

Quote:
To try to get my needs, I go first, with the dream/fantasy/expectation that my partner will become a partner and respond nicely.
Yup. I like your initiative, willingness to lead. There is a whole lot is us often about "better to give than to receive" or "be kind" or "set the example". So you try something. Very cool.

Quote:
My partner doesn't respond.
Another way of saying, "what I tried did not work." I'm gonna translate this a bit just to make it more clear. First thought is that even "doing nothing" is a response. Your partner did resond, would be my way of saying this, but, I translate that statement as "My partner responds in a way I don't want."

I guess that you might generously have many ideas of what would be a "buddy" or "caring" response, but your partner didn't do one of those.

What this clarifies is the idea that when you enter this situation you already have (consciously or unconsciously) some ideas of what you want out of it - what you want your partner to do.

More simply, you wanted something and didn't get it. I believe the normal response to this in your body is best described as frustration. "I want an icecream cone and the store is closed....I'm frustrated."

Quote:
I feel resentful, betrayed, nailed, screwed
Boy, does this sound familiar (oops, they were my words). I think there are at least parts here.

The 100% normal feeling when a human doesn't get what they want, when they are frustrated, is pissed-off ness, anger. When I am teaching guys (I find guys are often way out of touch with awareness of their emotions, particularly anger and sadness) to get in touch with their anger, I just point to the "feeling" they have when they can't get what they want. Seems that Anger is the emotion that helps us push toward what we want. So I think that definitely there is gonna be, in you, some anger.

If this is a repeated situation, repeated frustration, with any sense hopelessness, there will, I am sure, be the feeling of sadness, too. I see grief as the emotion that helps us deal with having to go on in life after we don't get what we want.

So I certainly expect to find the two emotions of anger and sadness.

Secondly, I am guess that you, like most people, believe in and value "fairness" or "tit-for-tat" or balance. When you give to your partner, things would seem fair when your partner gives back. If you give to your partner and they don't give back, most people will have a sense of "unfairedness." Invest a quarter in a candy machine and it doesn't give out any candy and check this situation out.

Thirdly, I think whatever you are doing for your partner is a kind of "talk" or expression. When there is no response, people tend to feel "invisible," as if you don't exist. Very invalidating stuff.

OK. So it's normal to have anger, sadness, unfairness,and invisibility in this situation - all going on in you. And I believe all these feelings are pretty automatic, based on the way humans are built. We cannot stop the feelings, I fear. We can decide what to do about them - how to express them.

Quote:
but say nothing.
Wow. All that hot cooking stuff going on, and you are silent. Could be lots and lots of reasons for you to do that. I think I'll put this off and share about that "silence" in a later response.

How am I doing, TC_Manhattan? Did I miss something?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #83193
03/18/11 06:26 PM
03/18/11 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Wow. All that hot cooking stuff going on, and you are silent. Could be lots and lots of reasons for you to do that. I think I'll put this off and share about that "silence" in a later response.

How am I doing, TC_Manhattan? Did I miss something?



Nope. I don't think so. BTW, your slowing this down really helps me to see all the pieces and how they link together. read

Thanks! <drumroll....!> I sense "Power of Passivity" is coming up next...

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #83249
03/18/11 07:30 PM
03/18/11 07:30 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: TC_Manhattan
Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
How am I doing, TC_Manhattan? Did I miss something?
Nope. I don't think so. BTW, your slowing this down really helps me to see all the pieces and how they link together.
I'm glad. Nice to see how the pieces of you link together. They always seem to if you PreValidate. Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted By: TC_Manhattan
Thanks! <drumroll....!> I sense "Power of Passivity" is coming up next...
Mebbe I don't need to say any more. You got it. Whatcha think?


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #83537
03/19/11 04:52 AM
03/19/11 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I picked the following piece out of FH's postings as I believe it focuses on what I believe is a defining point between he and I and our beliefs.
ForeverHers: It tends to come down to the issue of "authority" to set what is true and what is false and the consequences of acceptance or rebellion. If "truth" is removed from the "equation," then all that's left is simple relativism and "anything" anyone wants or desires becomes "truth," with that "truth" being the same thing as "right and good."

It may be a defining point. It remains to be seen if it's defining an area of agreement or disagreement. I'll be interested in hearing what you think about authority and truth.

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
One rule I am going to try to follow in this thread is to post only a couple of points at a time and then wait for FH's response with only a couple of points (hopefully). I don't know if this will be slow enough, but I think slowing down is well worth it - particularly when differences of opinions may be great.

Hey Al, it's "your house," so of course you get to set the "house rules." As with just about anything, one can accept the rules or reject the rules, but I think they are reasonable and a good idea for discussing what could be "big areas" of agreement or disagreement.

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
Actually for me the critical issue in Marriage relates to authority - or as I frame it in my office - who makes the decisions.

I'll be very interested in how you define this critical issue , how it is implemented in a Marriage, and what gives the authority to someone to "make the decisions."

Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
My second point will be about MasterTalk. If I have written that you should never use Mastertalk, well that's an interesting and hasty thought. I don't believe it. I can easily think of times when MasterTalk seems appropriate. Generally I see three times: when acknowledged "property" is involved, when acknowledged "expertise" is involved or when acknowleged "urgency" is involved.

AlTurtle: Let's trot out my handy dandy definition. MasterTalk is any sentence that implies a single truth.

So you see only three times when MasterTalk is appropriate, none of which you see apply to ending affairs, helping a spouse who's spouse is cheating on them deal with the reality of an affair in their marriage, or in helping both spouses to recover their marriage following the ending of an affair. So what you are saying is that you don't think that affairs are always wrong, because the "property" involved is the "other spouse's," there is no recognition of an "expert" with "expertise" to convey a single truth, and that there are no "quick decisions" that are needed that are being forced upon an individual by the "pressing circumstances" of an affair.

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: ForeverHers] #83625
03/19/11 04:28 PM
03/19/11 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: ForeverHers
I'll be interested in hearing what you think about authority and truth.
I certainly was raised in a pretty normal American family, and looked out at fairly normal institution: churches, politics, businesses military. As a kid my thoughts of Authority were probably pretty conventional. My time overseas, my divorce, my studies in Psychology and particularly in General Semantics, the vast learnings that my wife and I made, threw all my thoughts on Authority into a spotlight for re-examination.

Now, practically speaking, I think of authority simply as the ability and responsibility to make decisions about my stuff, and to respect your ability/authority to make decisions about your stuff. The word "Authority" finds itself centrally in my beliefs and articles about Autonomy. My core paper on my thinking is called Master/Slave:The Two World Problem. However in my directory of papers on Autonomy there are many elaborations on my thinking and of the skills required to navigate democracy/dialogue, find functional hierarchy and avoid dysfunctional hierarchy.

In this topic I express my developed beliefs about the difference between hierarchal thinking and democratic/dialogical thinking. I believe that since about 1950-60s our relationships structures have been more and more based on the latter. Before that time relationships were more often based on hierarchy. Both orientations I've found have their ways about making group decisions. In my experience, an I have tried, relationships that fall apart or where affairs occur in relationships that have already fallen apart, one of the core problems is the attempt to use hierarchical thinking in a democracy. I believe this will almost always fail.

One of the crucial distinctions between what I call Master/Slave(hierarchal) and Friend/Friend(democratic) is how both handle the concept of Truth. Having lived in, and promoted, dialogical relationships I believe there is Truth. In General Semantics I believe it is often called WIGO (what is going on). And I believe that that truth is unknowable. Each of us can appreciate a portion - living changing portion. No one can know the whole. So that when we come together all we can do is share our view of our portion.

Putting Authority and Truth together comes out like this. I decide for myself what part of TRUTH I decide to believe in or to adopt as my Truth. I encourage you to decide for yourself what part of TRUTH you decide to believe in or adopt as your Truth.

This I believe.

Short, but a start.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #83744
03/19/11 10:44 PM
03/19/11 10:44 PM
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I feel a little abandoned and resentful of this argument//discussion/conversation as it seems to be sucking the energy out of the peer counseling thread and this forum on an issue about which I am reasonably certain the parties will never have a meeting of the minds.

I fear I'm going to drown in a sea of words but I can't get away from it as these are the topics which interest me the most.

I also want to call the Punctuation Police and have the quotation marks summarily stripped from FH's keyboard without notice or an opportunity to be heard. I can't for the life of me figure out the "reason" for 90% of them which slows my analysis and understanding of what is being communicated to a glacier pace.

I'm just complaining here folks -I don't expect anything to change.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #83760
03/20/11 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I feel a little abandoned and resentful of this argument//discussion/conversation as it seems to be sucking the energy out of the peer counseling thread and this forum on an issue about which I am reasonably certain the parties will never have a meeting of the minds.

I fear I'm going to drown in a sea of words but I can't get away from it as these are the topics which interest me the most.

I also want to call the Punctuation Police and have the quotation marks summarily stripped from FH's keyboard without notice or an opportunity to be heard. I can't for the life of me figure out the "reason" for 90% of them which slows my analysis and understanding of what is being communicated to a glacier pace.

I'm just complaining here folks -I don't expect anything to change.


Wow, I'm new to this BB, and am unsure as to where this writer's comment is coming from. Seems there are lots of threads here to appeal to a variety of folks on a lot of different topics/issues.
Firstly, I not so sure that agreement is a goal here (or in any dialogue or idea exchange.) I see it more as a sharing of different perspectives so we can better see where each of us is coming from and how we understand or see things. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I see it.
Secondly, by recognizing and acknowledging (well, guess that's pre-validation)this variety of perspectives, we are celebrating diversity which I believe is Al's definition of empathy.

I hear you saying you feel a bit lost and resentful because of an absence of agreement. Not sure how we can (or if we should) address this perceived problem. Not sure it's our job to.

How in your view could we fix this short of engaging in Master Talk, or the dogma of only acknowledging one view as THE view. (It is what I see as agreement for the price of foregoing autonomy.) This is likely more efficient, but will we learn anything about each other this way?

Coerced consensus IMHO is forced submission.

And this complaint comes across like a passive-master power maneuver. My thoughts. Let's share.

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #83761
03/20/11 12:01 AM
03/20/11 12:01 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I feel a little abandoned and resentful of this argument//discussion/conversation as it seems to be sucking the energy out of the peer counseling thread and this forum on an issue about which I am reasonably certain the parties will never have a meeting of the minds.
Sorry for that abandonment and resentment stuff cuz you see the energy as pulled out of that useful Peer Counseling area. I hear your thought about "meeting of minds," by which I think you mean that FH and I develop some sort of kind of agreement. Of course I think our minds are meeting now, and nope I don't expect a whole lot of agreement. I haven't agreed much with anyone for years and years. But tis fun to meet their minds and perhaps learn.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I fear I'm going to drown in a sea of words but I can't get away from it as these are the topics which interest me the most.
I sure have heard that old "drown" phrase. I am capable of answering in 10,000 words when 25 will do. Been told that all my life. I do try to be short and clear, but doesn't always satisfy my readers. Fortunately they can read or not read.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
I'm just complaining here folks -I don't expect anything to change.
Thanks for sharing the complaints. I would much rather hear them than not hear them.

I will continue to try to be brief.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #83775
03/20/11 12:39 AM
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Actually, meeting of the minds is a legal concept. Probably could have chosen a better term. I see the discussion between Al and FH as, well, an irresistable force meeting an immovable object.

TC - sorry to have been so unclear. I waa referring specifically to the discussion between FH and Al. I have a history with FH which has been frustrating and, at times, painful. I felt I bared my spiritual soul to him a while back- shared some painful religious experiences and fears - which he dismissed with what I think was rhetoric which just made me feel stupid for trying on top of the rest.

I'm not reacting to the absence of agreement - that rarely troubles me. I'm reacting to what I see as a hopeless engagement possibly running off posters who I have followed closely on the Whiteboard for months.

I wasn't looking for a fix. I just wanted to be heard. It scares me how much power FH seems to have to direct and/or shut down discussion with posters I desperately want to talk to and hear from. I would like to work through some of my spiritual issues, but it's just not possible for me in the face of such absolutism which i just can't hear and drags every religious discussion here to a debate on FH's dogma and presentation. I recognize the boundary problem is in me. I just can't get past it - I get too upset.

Maybe I'm scared he is going to dampen, silence or run off Al.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on my complaint being a passive/aggressive power move. You may be right - I don't know. I was just feeling sad and frustrated by this and decided to say something - I'm not very good at that IRL.


Bidden or not bidden God is present.
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: LadyGrey] #83799
03/20/11 01:42 AM
03/20/11 01:42 AM
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Hi LadyGrey,

I looked up the phrase "meeting of the minds." Thanks for that. I have a better sense now for its meaning as used in contract law. I'd assumed it was a synonym for agreement.

Thanks, too, for the background context you were responding to. Stuff I didn't know, and in light of this history your response makes sense to me. I have a similar reaction to the use of absolutisms (is that a proper word?), what I receive as self-righteousness or in extreme cases as moral imperialism (I LOVE that term.) It is to me an extreme example of Master Talk or verbal/conceptual domination. One of my good friends is a self-proclaimed atheist vegan. This friendship takes a lot of effort on my part to keep it friend-friend and not devolve into exclusionist verbiage.

Wow, I am happy to hear you don't expect/need agreement. That I think is at the heart of the power struggle part of relationships and communication. I learned that from Al.

I hear you about the language FH uses, having read some of his more recent posts. He sounds a lot like my atheist/vegan friend with the righteous tone to his posts. If he went after you, well I think I'd have my back up too. In fact I know I would. Been there. Lots.

If this is any reassurance, I suspect he would be hard-pressed to run Al off. This is what Al does: jiu jitsu with communication. I suspect Al might have your back on this if I'm reading the dialogue right. You may enjoy watching this interface unfold over time. Maybe Al is using this as a teaching moment to illustrate what Master Talk is and how to deal with it, or learn from it. My thoughts, but that's what I'm getting out of it so far.

The passive-master comment is my reaction to the first part of your post, where you mentioned feeling lost and resentful (and ended it there) like you were waiting for someone else to address/fix the complaint. Has to do, I think, with whose responsibility it is to fix a problem that one person sees. That's where my reply came from. Of course, this is also overlooking your final comment which was something to the effect that you didn't expect it to change. The way you explained it in your response to me made it clear that you were just venting your frustration, not trying to make someone else fix it. I didn't get that from your first post that I reacted to.

The biggest thing I'm learning this week is just how important it is to SLOW down the words (I am really really bad at that) and take things one little piece at-a-time. Al is demonstrating that beautifully with these threads, and especially with how he's slowing things down with his dialogue with FH. A maistro at work. Someday I hope to perfect the slowing down of my fast-forward.

Great to meet you, and thanks much for the context and explanations. You make a lot of sense to me now. Voila!

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #83850
03/20/11 04:16 AM
03/20/11 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: TC_Manhattan
I hear you about the language FH uses, having read some of his more recent posts. He sounds a lot like my atheist/vegan friend with the righteous tone to his posts. If he went after you, well I think I'd have my back up too. In fact I know I would. Been there. Lots.

If this is any reassurance, I suspect he would be hard-pressed to run Al off. This is what Al does: jiu jitsu with communication. I suspect Al might have your back on this if I'm reading the dialogue right. You may enjoy watching this interface unfold over time. Maybe Al is using this as a teaching moment to illustrate what Master Talk is and how to deal with it, or learn from it. My thoughts, but that's what I'm getting out of it so far.


TC, I have no interest in running Al or anyone else off. As for LadyGrey's comments, I'll let you read for yourself and reach your own conclusions. I have NO idea why she is again attacking me when I'm trying to have a civil conversation and discussion of ideas with Al, but I'm sure she has her reasons that make sense to her.

https://www.marriageadvocates.com/ubbthre...riage#Post48232

https://www.marriageadvocates.com/ubbthre...riage#Post58561
Quote from this link:
LadyGrey (formerly known as SeekingBalance): "FH, I've given a great deal of thought to why I am so reactive to those of your posts, which have religious content.

I find your advice in general sound, well considered, balanced, compassionate and intuitively correct.

And then I see the word "Sovereign" and I go postal."



But I think it really is time to retire from this system when the use of quotation marks instead of inflection and tone of voice (that can't be heard in the written word) is enough to send someone postal.

Al, thank you for your patience and input. Have been spending some time on your website reading up on your thoughts about MasterTalk, Master/Slave, etc. I was looking forward to discussing this topic further with you, but in light of the current atmosphere, I think it best to simply end participation.



In Christ-like love at all times.

So that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. (2Cor 1:4b)

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: ForeverHers] #83855
03/20/11 04:30 AM
03/20/11 04:30 AM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Dear Foreeverhers, My best wishes to you. Go with God's speed.

And to TC_Manhattan and LadyGrey, I enjoyed your sharing. One of the wonderful tools I use in my group whenever a couple of people get "strong" with each other, I do a thing that's sometimes called a fishbowl. The combative people are invited to shut up and listen, and the others chatter with each other about their experiences while they were observing the "combat." I think tis an exercise of boundaries for the hot people, an exercise in practicing speaking up (in the silent presence of perhaps "noisy" people) for the others, and a chance for everyone to cool a bit.

Anyway, as I read your posts, I was thinking of how much I enjoy hearing what everyone is thinking. Thanks all of you.


Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: ForeverHers] #83905
03/20/11 01:47 PM
03/20/11 01:47 PM
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"FH, I've given a great deal of thought to why I am so reactive to those of your posts, which have religious content....

And then I see the word "Sovereign" and I go postal."

[/quote]

To me, words like "sovereign" or "absolute Truth (with a capital T)" come across like absolute qualifiers and again, to me, come across as Master Talk, implying a single, non-negotiable Truth. I see it as a subversive form of one-upsmanship, which to me comes across as a domineering power maneuver.

Now maybe that's because it triggers a reaction from old history with me (it really does.) I grew up in an atmosphere rife with this type of language. So, in part, I'm responsible for husbanding my reaction to this type of talk. Part of that responsibility is learning the stuff on this thread, learning to recognize Master Talk, to recognize my hair-trigger sensitivity to hearing it, and learning how to deal with it.

One way to deal with this stuff is avoidance or the lizard fleeing. That doesn't work to keep the relationship going, but it does work to keep my lizard feeling safe.

In the case of my vegan friend, I don't want to lose the good aspects of our friendship, so I try to go further.

It's possible folks like FH don't fully realize just how they come across to people like us. Lots of Masters don't appreciate their forcefulness. Part of learning is, I think, to try to share this with them, get them to see the aggressiveness that you and I sense. They're responsible for what they imply. We as receivers are responsible for what we infer.

In some cases (like my atheist/vegan friend) even subtly approaching this issue doesn't work. He takes off and there goes my friendship. So, sadly, till I get better at "leading" I choose to avoid those subjects and when they come up, to steer the conversation to more objective, friendly topics.

It's possible that for FH, coming from an environment steeped with this type of language, he doesn't even notice or realize how it comes across to others. I don't know. He hasn't shared enough for me to know. It's also possible that he is conscious of the language he uses and does so deliberately to effect the response of backing people off. We'll never know till he shows his cards.

Bla, bla, bla.. Sorry for the long discourse. My attempt to share how I see the nuances involved with hearing, receiving and responding to communication. Without it, the world would be lonely indeed. I still have tons to learn, and the application part is even harder than the cognitive part for me.


Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #83941
03/20/11 03:38 PM
03/20/11 03:38 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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Dear TC_Manhattan,

Great post and I think a good example of how to share. I think a goal in posting is to a)not make it too long, b)focus on a few points and c) provide enough data so that it is relatively easy for someone to understand where you are coming from - where they don't need much more info from you in order to understand you. Thanks.

I wanted to focus on dealing with MasterTalk in real life. I find most people use it and some use it in an extremely challenging way. And so "dealing" with it to me is a very useful skill (and one we can all practice on anyone).

With all the tools I've created and shared, I think the process is pretty straightforward. This topic is a great place to work on this.

Couple of starting thoughts. PreValidating everyone means that all people make sense all the time and that both you, the listener and the other person, the user of MasterTalk, is at that moment making sense in your reactions and in their actions.

You did a good summary of reasons you might go "Postal" - example of PreValidating, and Validating yourself. So you make sense with your reaction. I was sure you did.

Here are some choices I see before you or me. If you let your Lizard panic and start fighting, probably not so good. If you let your Lizard run away, all well and good. Probably better is to calmly take your Lizard away. Probably better still is to develop the skills so that a) your Lizard stays relaxed and b) you are pleased with how you handle the interaction with that other guy. This latter is probably what you think of as "masterly handling the situation."

Now I believe the Lizard seems to love repetition, structure and competence. And I think your Lizard will much prefer that you calmly recognize the situation, and quickly start applying tools to that work.

Try this for size:
  1. Recognize the situation requires strong skills
  2. Calm your Lizard
  3. Consider taking your Lizard to another place
  4. PreValidate, mebbe Validate, you and your reactive tendencies
  5. Proceed to calm the other's Lizard
  6. PreValidate the other
  7. Slow the relating, communication, down
  8. Make the other feel heard while discarding the MasterTalk
  9. Let them know you are not sharing your thoughts now
  10. Validate the other
  11. Share your side when they become interested
  12. Be patient
I think impatience in an adult is either a sign of Lizard activity or a sign the adult needs more practice with patience.

Well, tis a formula. Is there any part of this that you want clarified?



Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: TC_Manhattan] #83948
03/20/11 03:53 PM
03/20/11 03:53 PM
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2long Offline
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I've been thinking about chiming in for a few pages here...

I have a friend/colleague who's truly a very smart man. He owns his own company and has been involved in high-level research projects for over 30 years. He's right a lot of the time, but he doesn't know everything about our subject. In the past few years, he's gotten better at deferring 2 others about things they're more focused on and knowledgeable about. In past years, he literally would leave a discussion if he was starting 2 get uncomfortable with the direction it was taking. This usually happened before most recipients of this treatment were even aware of what had happened - they were simply baffled at the behavior.

It's as though my friend's footing is precarious at some level - the area where he's not the expert, for example. And I really think that removing himself from the discussion is 2 protect a fragile ego - if he isn't the expert, he could be wrong (or less right that someone who is an expert), and if he's wrong, maybe he's not as intelligent as he wants to believe himself 2 be.

It's been sad 2 watch, though people who've never worked closely with him (or similar 2 him) most likely aren't even aware of it.

FH and I have butted heads on MA and previously on MB for several years, but a few months ago, I decided 2 stop contributing 2 the arguments, because it was hurting other people on MA. Somewhere, though, in Thunderdome I think, I posted a thought along these lines.

There probably is absolute truth. Scientists pursue it via the scientific method and religious people believe it comes from God.

My friend tends 2 protect his handle on the facts about our subject by removing himself from a heated discussion before he can be attacked (or, alternatively, launching a brutal attack of his own that puts the other person so on the defensive that they don't initially strike back). I don't think he would do this if his subconscious didn't worry that maybe he doesn't have all the facts - that maybe someone else can know something he hadn't thought of.

That kind of mastertalk seems, 2 me, rooted in an unconscious fear that, if the absolute truth isn't spoken by some master, it won't be known, or it might be morphed in2 something else by some clever relativist with an agenda.

Absolute truth will exist and persist no matter what we say about it, or how we pronounce it. I submit that we're all relativists, in that we all perceive the world around us from our perspective. It doesn't scare me that I may not know all the answers. It doesn't worry me that there may or may not be a supreme being. I'll continue 2 assemble my perspective on the universe and my place in it through observation and feedback.

The absolute truth may even be exactly as FH describes it. Even if that's the case, it's not just our free will 2 ponder and explore what that truth means 2 us and how we can apply it in our relationships, it's our responsibility 2 do so.

And I get goosebumpy, not fearful, when faced with responsibility. I think responsibility is liberating.

Uh oh... I made coffee while writing this and it sorta rambled a bit.

-ol' 2long

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: AlTurtle] #84041
03/20/11 07:55 PM
03/20/11 07:55 PM
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TC_Manhattan Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlTurtle
I think impatience in an adult is either a sign of Lizard activity or a sign the adult needs more practice with patience.

Well, tis a formula. Is there any part of this that you want clarified?



Nope, I don't think so. My own big stumbling blocks are #7: Slow the communication down, and biggest of all, #12: Be patient. (I am not, by nature.) And the more of a hurry I'm in, I find I try to speed things up by throwing more words, faster words at it. Doesn't work, but it's ingrained.

As for #11: Share your side when they become interested, this brings us full circle to New Every Day's question about resentment when they don't want to listen back (well something like that.) This is another challenging phenomenon. My vegan friend does this. If he starts with his self-righteousness and I try to bring it up, he will escalate his arguments till finally he just "takes his ball and goes home." Fine.

In a threatening exchange, my lizard would be satisfied with that response (his giving up if I refuse to agree.) It's sort of like emotional hi-jacking to my thinking. It's as if he's drawn the boundary that conversation can only continue if I succumb to his opinion/justification. No room here for my thoughts.

In the case of a friend with whom I have other basis for sharing, I choose to avoid the hot topics and keep things focused on subjects we are not so egoistically invested in. Otherwise, I end up with nothing. I think there are some folks who may never be interested to see my side on a given subject. I have to own that. Sort of like take-it-or-leave-it. Those are the limits of that particular friendship.

Also, in a more casual friendship, I think it's easier for me to live with such a limitation. Where I don't think it's feasible is in the more intimate relationship of a marriage. I just can't see being in my most significant relationship and harboring such extreme limitations on who I am and what I think. I think this level of relationship deserves enough wiggle room for both partners to exercise their uniqueness. If not, I can't see it lasting.

Re: Topic 3b: "Stop the MasterTalk" - Building Trust [Re: 2long] #84124
03/20/11 11:16 PM
03/20/11 11:16 PM
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AlTurtle Offline OP
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AlTurtle  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 2long
I've been thinking about chiming in for a few pages here...That kind of mastertalk seems, 2 me, rooted in an unconscious fear that, if the absolute truth isn't spoken by some master...
Glad you've chimed in. I like your thinking. I can add a couple of thoughts that have surfaced as you share your experiences.

I believe you've put your finger on the core beneath MasterTalk (which to me is just a cue) which I learned as Emotional Symbiosis. Harville Hendrix introduced me to the topic back in 1995 and I loved the concept - while I hated the label "Emotional Symbiosis". Here's my my Article on it. (Look closely and my article also has a link to an MP3 of the original presentation by Harville.) Tis defined with three components:
  1. A belief that there is a right way to value, experience, appreciate everything
  2. A limited awareness that everyone sees things differently
  3. A tendency to denigrate or derogate others when they show their difference
I suffered from this "disease" myself for years and was delighted to work on leaving it behind. For me it is the core behind the Valley of the Masters or Master/Slave or MasterTalkor simply arguing.

While I was being raised in an Emotionally Symbiotic (hate the label) family, I learned that I was "good" if I could be "right," and I was "bad" if I couldn't. So like your friend I avoided topics where I was not knowledgeable for fear of being shamed.

I am so incredibly happy to be able to leave all that behind. I feel much more confident now.


A second thought is that I think you have stumbled into two of the three groups that seem to have most trouble with Master/Slave. The three groups I have found are
  1. Bright, highly educated people (PhDs, Laywers, Doctors, etc.)
  2. Fundamentalists (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, you-name-it)
  3. Ex-military, police, fire department, etc. particularly "drill sergeants"
I think the problem is that their professions or sub-cultures reinforce or enable their symbiosis. These also I find are the groups that have the most trouble with developing and maintaining happy marriages and relationships. Tis my experience.



Principles are simple. Applying them is a tough U-Do-It project. Go 4 it!
Al Turtle
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