Marriage Advocates

Star's Infidelity University

Posted By: star*fish

Star's Infidelity University - 03/26/13 04:31 PM

Star’s Infidelity University

These first courses will be for Betrayed Spouses.

This is the college where no one wants a degree. Unfortunately enrollment is not voluntary, and when you find yourself faced with an uncertain future, it’s so painful and confusing; you may not know what to do. You might be scared, numb or feel like you’re going crazy, and that’s why having a course schedule can be invaluable. Many posters on this site have contributed article's and guides to help you at every stage from discovery to recovery. I will be putting together a full course guide with reading and written assignments.

Consider finishing each course, before moving on to the next one. The first course is:

Intuition 101

Whether your spouse has become distant, or you definitely suspect there is another person involved, your first task is to find out the truth and trust your instincts. Something is nagging at you. Things just don't add up.

Here is my redflag guide for anyone who thinks their spouse is having an affair:


redflag Red Flag Guide: Is My Spouse Cheating?


Some betrayed spouses never suspect that their partner is cheating and get completely blindsided when the truth comes out. Oftentimes they are the proverbial "last to know." But for a great many us, the knowledge that something is terribly wrong seeps in like an insidious odor that fouls the air.

You have a horrible sinking feeling in your stomach, and you can feel your anxiety rising. You've noticed changes in your spouse, but when you try to talk about it, they deny anything is wrong. In fact, they often accuse you of being jealous, crazy, or controlling if you suggest there is another person involved. Still, the belief that something is wrong persists, but you have no proof.

First, learn to trust your instincts. Intuition is a feeling that something is right or wrong, and it's the brain's way of drawing on past experiences and current external cues to make sense of information. If the relationship between your spouse and a co-worker doesn't seem right, it probably isn't. If your spouse seems more secretive than normal, they're probably hiding something. There are many red flags signaling infidelity in a marriage. Some of them are obvious; others are small subtle changes that when added together can signal trouble.

Here is a list of common clues that your spouse is having an affair.


redflag Your own fears and suspicions should be your first clue. When we don't want to believe something so devastating, it can be easy to dismiss the feeling that something is wrong...don't. A cheating spouse will encourage you to question your own instincts and even damage your self esteem, keeping you confused, and creating as much self doubt as possible so you don't investigate your feelings. Instinctual suspicions can be very subtle. For instance, your spouse doesn't get angry with you about something that has always triggered anger. They let you "off the hook" because they want as little confrontation as possible. They will frequently hyper focus on you-asking more questions about how your day went, or how you're feeling, etc, to shift the attention away from them and their guilt. If they're the ones asking questions, then you don't get as much opportunity to ask about their secret life.

redflag Money is disappearing. Financial records too. Credit card bills that used to come to the house are now going to the office. Unusual charges are showing up on the credit card bill, or cell phone bill. Affairs take money and almost always impact the primary relationship and family. Big red flag.


redflag Defensiveness: When you ask your spouse what's wrong, rather than reassuring you and giving plausible explanations, they get angry and defensive. They might create controversy and pick fights, using these arguments to justify spending more time away from home. They accuse you of not trusting them when in reality, they know they are untrustworthy.


redflag Affair Language: "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." This phrase is so common that it's considered a huge red flag. They may even say that they "don't think they were ever in love with you." You know this isn't true, but under the influence of affair chemicals, wayward spouses often rewrite history and exhibit a kind of "amnesia" about the marriage.


redflag Unreasonable outbursts of anger over mundane things related to "space," "privacy" or "time alone." This usually happens when you inadvertently turn up at an unexpected time or enter a room while the telephone is being used. The rage does not fit the event and is often a sign that something was being discussed that the spouse wants to keep hidden from you.


redflag Space: Your spouse spends more time away from home or moves out of the house because they need "space" or to "figure out how they feel." It's common for a wayward spouse to move out of the home because it makes it easier to conceal an affair. Affairs need privacy, so changes in the amount of privacy a spouse needs is another big red flag.


redflag Grooming and appearance changes: Better clothes, sexier clothes, better underwear, a weight loss, change in hair style, shaving more often, new cologne or perfume, dressing well at unusual times…can all signal the wayward spouse is dressing for someone else.


redflag Sudden changes in any long standing habits. Hobbies get pushed aside, or a new one starts that takes hours away from home and the spouse. They might suddenly seem to enjoy new foods or new music that never interested them before. Sudden trips to the office, the store, the gas station or to drop something off to a friend at strange hours. This is especially recognizable as a pattern when it follows closely on the heels of a cell phone call, text message or the checking of email.


redflag Change in work habits. They might leave for work 30 minutes earlier or change to a later bus or train for the trip home. Their work load suddenly increases. They start working overtime or scheduling meetings before or after work. They become less available at work when you call, and don't answer the phone during lunch hour. They seem unusually friendly with their coworkers. They know more and more personal details about the lives of their coworkers.


redflag "We're just friends." Your spouse has new friend(s) or coworkers they don't seem to want you to meet. If you do meet them, it's easy to tell they spend lots of time together. There might be private jokes or glances. There is often a certain excited tension between them. These friends often remain nameless….dinner with the girls, guys or girls nights out on multiple nights of the week, and phrases like "Hanging out with the guys" or "Stopping off with some people from work for a drink before catching the train home" can indicate a secret set of friends with a desire to prevent accountability or investigation as to true whereabouts. The work or recreational activities you're not invited to grow. Your small children start mentioning the names of people you don't know.

redflag Phones: The cell phone becomes less of a tool and more of an appendage. It never leaves the cheater's side. Call logs and text messages are religiously erased. If you walk into the room, conversations stop. They claim they can't get a good signal in the house and have to walk around outside to talk. When they call to tell you they'll be late, they complain about a weak signal again, and get off of the phone quickly. When you try to call back later, their phone goes straight to voice mail. The cell phone bill disappears. There is a marked increase in texting. In general the wayward needs much more privacy for all phone calls. Phone calls that require being in a separate room to be taken. They will sit right beside you to talk to Mom, Dad, brother or sister, the guy from the softball team or their boss, but suddenly they don't want to disturb your television program, which might have been their favorite show before now. Wrong numbers that call more than once over a space of several days or weeks. This is usually combined with the caller ID list being wiped out sometimes after remaining as it was for many months at a time.


redflag Computer Use: Email and computer use becomes a hidden activity often with windows being suddenly closed or minimized the instant you walk into the room. An escalation of computer use at odd times, or only at times when you are not home. Chat logs, browsing history and other computer tracking stuff are routinely erased. Email accounts that once had 150 messages in the inbox suddenly only contain a handful of daily SPAM and other drivel unrelated to personal life.


redflag Sex is different in some way. Frequency might decrease or increase. The cheater will often be open to trying new things, some they had no interest in before. But sex can also change more subtly as well, such as wanting to have "just a quickie" tonight instead of more intimate love making that would last longer. When an affair initially begins, out of guilt and in an effort to avoid the newly formed affair being discovered, they may actually increase the amount of attention they pay their real partners in bed. After the affair has been going on a little while, the cheater may appear to have a loss of sex drive. They avoid being intimate with you as much as they used to. The way they kiss is different.


redflag Distancing: You sense them pulling away, becoming more formal. No vestiges of verbal intimacy. They speak of nothing personal. The "in jokes" you used to share disappear. They relate to you more like an acquaintance than a life partner. You get the idea that they're "just not that into you."


redflag Resistance to everything, especially talks of the future. If you suggest dinner at their favorite restaurant, they would rather order a pizza. They find fault with almost every thing you say and anything you suggest. They seem bored and anxious when they're home.


redflag Encouragement for you to do things that they would not have been enthusiastic about in the past. They give you encouragement to go visit your family with the kids, but they have to stay behind for work. They encourage you to develop interests that don't include them. They encourage you to take a vacation with your friends or siblings.


redflag False transparency: A cheater will often go to great lengths to establish an alibi for meeting the affair partner. An out of town business trip scheduled for early December might first be mentioned in September, even though travel for work occurs every couple of weeks routinely. Or they might go out of the way to explain to you why they were ten minutes late, what they did or who they bumped into at lunch, or expressing some long-hidden dream or goal for the future that does not directly concern you.


None of these signs alone is a definite signal of cheating, but several of them together, or a strong sense of intuition is worth investigating.

Assigned reading:

This article has some very interesting signs that should be added to the above list.

http://www.ivillage.com/32-emotional-signs-hes-cheating-0/4-a-283634

From Danine Manette: http://www.ultimatebetrayal.com/Signs.html

More signs: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/06/signs-husband-is-cheating_n_1632688.html

Written assignments:

1) Make a list of all the signs your spouse is exhibiting and post them.

2) Make a list of why knowing the truth would be better than being in the dark.

3) Think about what you need to do to mentally prepare to find out the truth and write those down.

I will be putting some answers to 2 and 3 to help with the assignment.


The next course will be added onto this same post. It will be about finding out the truth. It will discuss how to catch a cheating spouse, and the how to deal with your own feelings of guilt about spying on your spouse.


If you’ve completed the above assignments and course work, then you’re ready to take on reality and you’ve emotionally prepared yourself to find out the truth. The next course is:

Truth 102

Affairs thrive in secrecy and most of the time a wayward spouse will do everything possible to keep you from finding out the truth. Many people feel a moral dilemma when it comes to spying and snooping, so the first important step is to come to terms your own sense of guilt about delving into the private life of your spouse.

In order to break through the lies that are destroying your marriage, it’s important to understand the difference between “privacy” and “secrecy”. Everyone is entitled to privacy, but secrecy in a marriage is toxic and it’s a major component of infidelity. Privacy is about putting up boundaries for personal space. Secrecy is about putting up barriers that come between spouses and are used to hide behind. Privacy is about protecting our individuality, but secrecy protects things that directly affect other people. A secret affair impacts all the people in a family in some way. It affects them emotionally for sure. It robs every one of time, attention and intimacy. It can also have a huge financial impact. Privacy is a personal boundary whose purpose does not include withholding information which directly affects other people in a destructive way. Infidelity is destructive on every level, including the health of the betrayed partner.

If you don’t know the truth, then you cannot act upon it. Every day that you don’t know, is a day you spend with the anxiety of wondering if your marriage is compromised or not. It’s also a day that you cannot make the decisions, changes and impact on your marriage that have the potential to save it.

Sir Francis Bacon said “knowledge is power”. When it comes to infidelity, it is everything. You can’t fight what you can’t see.

Here are a list of reasons that illustrate why you need to know.

1. So you can find some peace.
When you suspect your spouse is cheating, it can cause deep anxiety, worry and sleepless nights. It can affect your health and well being. If it turns out that your spouse isn't cheating, it will be a huge relief. The sooner you confront your suspicions, the faster you can stop wondering and get back to living life.


2. To stop untrue suspicions from ruining your marriage and your peace of mind.
Even if you’re trying to hide your suspicions, when you believe your spouse is cheating, these thoughts will manifest themselves in many damaging ways. It doesn't matter if they're true or not, they will change the way you think of your spouse. It can begin to affect every aspect of your marriage: sex, the way you interact, as well as your trust level. Finding out if your suspicions are true or not can bring back balance and vitality to your marriage.

3. So you can find out if it’s infidelity….or something else.
If your spouse isn’t himself, he might be cheating on you, and he might not. There are other reasons besides infidelity for strange behavior, for instance…health problems. A discreet search will uncover the real truth.

4. To find out if your marriage is in trouble.
You’ve heard the phrase ‘last to know”? That’s because many people don’t realize how troubled their marriages are until there’s already an ongoing affair. You can’t address a problem that you cannot see.

5. To catch the affair as early as possible.
Affairs are often a gradual slide down the slippery slope. Your spouse may be developing an “emotional affair” and hasn’t crossed the line yet. Spotting the early warning signs, can give you a chance to confront things before they get worse.

6. So you can concentrate your efforts on the right things.
Anxiety, worry and speculation can rob you of a lot of energy that could be focused on the marriage instead. Until you know the truth, you’ll be in an endless state of emotional limbo. Stop worry and investigate. Once you know exactly what you’re dealing with, you can focus your energy on the right things and make decisions that can help you reach recovery.

7. To emotionally come to grips with the possibility that your spouse may leave.
It’s better to be prepared. Even though the knowledge is devastating, you can’t get help for yourself until you face the possibility that your spouse may leave.

8. So you can protect your health.
Affairs often involve unprotected sex that can put you at risk for all kinds of sexually transmitted diseases….even some that can kill you. If you know, you can get tested and protect yourself by abstaining or practicing safe sex.

9. So you can financially protect you and your children.
There are steps you can take to protect your assets if your spouse is having an affair. You cannot depend on a cheating spouse to protect the interests of your family while they are deep in the fog of infatuation. Divorce can have a horrible financial impact on an unsuspecting partner.

10. So you can legally protect yourself.
You may need an attorney to protect your legal rights if your spouse is involved in an affair or seeks divorce. You need to educate yourself about things like child custody, alimony, and division of assets etc.

11. To confront your spouse with real evidence instead of suspicions.
The first step towards ending the affair is confronting the affair. Don’t give a cheating spouse the ability to pull the wool over your eyes. If you can confront your spouse with real proof, you can begin to deal with the truth and destroy the fantasy.


Suggested reading: Frank Pittman “Private Lies”

Written assignment: Write down a list of the personal reasons you need to know the truth.





7/19/2016 Okay--I'm going to temporarily add this outline to show where this is going and how far I have gotten.

Intuition 101
Red Flag Guide
Assigned reading
Assignments

Truth 102
Knowledge is Power
Benefits of knowing
Self doubt
Suggested Reading
Assignments

Investigation 103
Is it lawful?
Is it ethical?
Are you ready for what you find?
Self care
Support system
Information mining
Inexpensive
Expensive
Suggested Reading
Assignments


Discovery 201
How much do you need to know?
When do you stop snooping?
What to do in the first days after D-Day
What to do in the first week after D-Day
More self care
When is the right time to confront?
Should I get an attorney?
How to choose one.
When you can’t afford one.
Suggested Reading
Assignments

Confrontation 202
Why confront?
Taking back your power
Going on offense
The right way to confront
Typical fallout
denial
blame shifting, gas lighting and other ploys
anger
Boundaries
Suggested Reading
Assignments

Exposure 203
Should I expose or not?
pros
cons
If the affair ends.
If the affair doesn’t end.
Who are good targets for exposure?
Should I tell the kids?
Workplace exposure?
Scorched Earth?
Social Media?
Suggested Reading
Assignments



No Contact 204


Recovery 301


This is as far as I've gotten so far, but you can see the general feel and direction.




Mark---I have a bunch of good notes on the investigation part:

Inexpensive

-email
-cell phone records
-home phone
-recorders (check legality)
-browser history and hidden emails
-check the "trash" both at home and on the computer
-look for things in plain sight--coat pockets, rafters, attics, hidden in work files, brief case, wallet, receipts
-follow the money
-ask the people around you
-google account history/task manager
-history cache
-text messages
-baby monitor
-car mileage
-hidden phones
-set a trap like leaving for weekend

Expensive
-private investigator
-keylogger
-gps tracker
-nanny cam
-body fluid detection


Posted By: Orchid2

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 03/26/13 09:07 PM

I like it...... grin
Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 03/27/13 02:41 PM

I have added the second course^^^^^^
Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 03/27/13 02:44 PM

The next course will be: Investigation 201
Posted By: Ace

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 03/28/13 07:06 AM

claps thumbsup

Great job, as usual, Star....

impatient ...looking forward to the next lesson.

Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 07/19/16 01:53 PM

I'm bumping this up because myself and the BoD will begin work on this again. Any members who would like to help---please let me know. smile
Posted By: Ace

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 07/19/16 02:26 PM

Hi Star...remember me? waves

Wheww....I thought I'd killed this thread/construction over 3 years ago. So glad you're working on it again.

Always great to see you.

Ace
Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 07/19/16 02:42 PM

Hey Ace!! So good to see you. You're always welcome to help me with this (hint*hint*)
Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 07/19/16 03:01 PM

7/19/2016 Okay--I'm going to temporarily add this outline to show where this is going and how far I have gotten.

Intuition 101
Red Flag Guide
Assigned reading
Assignments

Truth 102
Knowledge is Power
Benefits of knowing
Self doubt
Suggested Reading
Assignments

Investigation 103
Is it lawful?
Is it ethical?
Are you ready for what you find?
Self care
Support system
Information mining
Inexpensive
Expensive
Suggested Reading
Assignments


Discovery 201
How much do you need to know?
When do you stop snooping?
What to do in the first days after D-Day
What to do in the first week after D-Day
More self care
When is the right time to confront?
Should I get an attorney?
How to choose one.
When you can’t afford one.
Suggested Reading
Assignments

Confrontation 202
Why confront?
Taking back your power
Going on offense
The right way to confront
Typical fallout
denial
blame shifting, gas lighting and other ploys
anger
Boundaries
Suggested Reading
Assignments

Exposure 203
Should I expose or not?
pros
cons
If the affair ends.
If the affair doesn’t end.
Who are good targets for exposure?
Should I tell the kids?
Workplace exposure?
Scorched Earth?
Social Media?
Suggested Reading
Assignments



No Contact 204


Recovery 301


This is as far as I've gotten so far, but you can see the general feel and direction.




Mark---I have a bunch of good notes on the investigation part:

Inexpensive

-email
-cell phone records
-home phone
-recorders (check legality)
-browser history and hidden emails
-check the "trash" both at home and on the computer
-look for things in plain sight--coat pockets, rafters, attics, hidden in work files, brief case, wallet, receipts
-follow the money
-ask the people around you
-google account history/task manager
-history cache
-text messages
-baby monitor
-car mileage
-hidden phones
-set a trap like leaving for weekend

Expensive
-private investigator
-keylogger
-gps tracker
-nanny cam
-body fluid detection

Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 07/19/16 04:47 PM

Wow! Great work.
Posted By: Ace

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 07/29/16 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: star*fish
Hey Ace!! So good to see you. You're always welcome to help me with this (hint*hint*)


Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Wow! Great work.


I agree with AR, Star. Superb start.

I did not read the links so my thoughts may be addressed already but here they are in no particular order:

1. MARITAL HISTORY: I'm fairly sure no one has an extreme experience with "WE MARRIED FOR THE WRONG REASON" as our story (linked to my sig line). It seems, however, that whether one was the chaser or the "chasee" makes a tiny bit of difference when infidelity occurs. To me, that variance relates to the option of trying to recover or not.

For me, when my WH confessed (after being busted by DD 20 something and confronted by both DD and DS) I was done and happy to have my justifiable reason to get out of what I thought was a bad marriage. Never mind that it had been 33 years since we ---actually should read "I"--- accidentally got engaged. As my story states, if our DS 20-something had not challenged us to "fight first before giving up," I would have taken up WH's offer to give me everything but his truck and move on. (NOTE: it's been 10 years and I'm now glad we fought --- and continue to fight together--- for a growing marriage relationship.)

2. CULTURAL DIFFERENCES: If the norm is for "arranged marriages" or even legal marriages to multiple partners, there may be impacts when defining infidelity and subsequently dealing with it.

3. ENDURING ANYTHING TO STAY MARRIED: There may be some people who want to stay married no matter what for a variety of reasons: financial, children, social, no place to go, etc. I think it might be good to include "coping mechanisms" for the truly determined spouse who wants to make things work out, if possible.

4. BIG CITY - SMALL TOWN differences: How couples manage to overcome infidelity in a small town, where everyone knows everyone and their business, might be something to consider.

5. Gotta go for now but had to list a #5 to satisfy my OCD for multiples of 5. blush I'll think of something and post it since we have a month to edit, right?

Looking forward to any thoughts.

Thanks,
Ace

Edited to add: I'm not sure if/how this might fit but the topic "Once Taboo, Now Typical" might be worth exploring. For example, the bygone days of "Ozzie and Harriet" home life have changed dramatically, especially marital, relational and family dynamics.

Modern inventions, while time-saving and convenient, create additional complications that just were not available back in the days when party-line neighborhood telephones and telegram messages were the fastest modes of communication. Or...maybe not....
Posted By: Steadfast & Committed

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 07/31/16 11:45 AM

Can I agree with A and Ace?

Very good.

S&C
Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 08/03/16 12:55 AM

Ace---I am taking a trip for a week, but I'll try to find some time time to respond to your suggestions. Thanks!!
Posted By: LadyGrey

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 08/14/16 04:34 AM

A huge ass red flag I sent up was that I stopped complaining to my husband about anything he did. I no longer cared what he did.
Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/06/16 04:22 PM

LG--I've never heard that one! But I guess it could go either way---hyper-criticism or extreme apathy towards the BS.
Posted By: Miranda

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/06/16 05:30 PM

Originally Posted By: star*fish
LG--I've never heard that one! But I guess it could go either way---hyper-criticism or extreme apathy towards the BS.


I think, and this is purely a unfounded hypothesis, this may be a gendered difference for the most part.

Women tend to "drop out" of the conversation. Men tend toward hyper criticality.

What does everyone else think?
Posted By: holdingontoit

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/06/16 06:20 PM

Just shows I am only anatomically male (and just barely at that).

I am like LG (as if you guys didn't know that). When we stopped MC I stopped complaining. Didn't mean I stopped being unhappy. Just meant I stopped caring and started assuming she would behave in ways that hurt me. If I wasn't prepared to leave, no use complaining about things she obviously was not prepared to change.
Posted By: Mark1952

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/06/16 08:15 PM

I don't know if it is a gender based deal or not but I can tell you that it does actually fit with Harley's 3 States of Mind and I think guys struggle with understanding it more than women do.

If my wife is constantly nagging me, arguing with me and wanting me to change almost everything, it is the perfect example of someone in a state of conflict. A lot of guys complain about it but unless you both have the communication skills to cut through the complaining and nagging, it is easy to just accept it as the way things are and the way they are meant to be.

When the nagging and complaining stops, peace suddenly appears and guys especially, tend to equate that with everything being OK. In reality, she has hit a state of withdrawal and simply no longer cares about much of anything and doesn't really want anything from him any longer.

What makes it a really hard place to come back from is that if he does something that makes her connect and want more from him, it actually causes her to return to conflict where she is argumentative and begins complaining again. She suddenly cares again about what he is doing or not doing and sees them as a couple once more. Without the ability to resolve the conflict and unless they have the ability to actually communicate and negotiate to move past the conflict, it actually reinforces his understanding that what he did was not enough, as it probably was not. However, the instinctive response is to stop trying or to lash out and hurt her in return. This causes her to once again disconnect, withdraw and stop nagging.

Some couples can live this way for a long time until something or someone intercedes. I think it is why so many guys are completely blindsided by an affair. Things have been peaceful and non-confrontational for so long that they assumed all was well with the relationship when in reality the wife had checked out long ago.

It has also made the relationship much more vulnerable to an affair by either of them because they stop communicating their needs, wants, desires and dreams. Any need left unsatisfied long enough almost becomes a vacuum almost begging to be filled and if most needs are going unmet for long enough, anyone who meets almost any need in any way feels like a miracle, or at least something pretty close to one.

Even those in a good marriage can have an affair under the right conditions and given the opportunity. I don't think most affairs are really exit affairs where the affair becomes a catalyst for ending the marriage. Rather I believe that the majority of affairs start as a sort of both/and kind of relationship instead of either/or. The spouse engaged in the affair is conflicted and wants the marriage to continue but wants the excitement and rush of the affair to continue. As the affair grows in intensity and value, due mainly to emotional investment, the affair takes on the role of the primary relationship.

Especially in a state of limerence, the affair, if not the affair partner, becomes an obsession and time around the spouse is filled with feelings of wanting to be elsewhere, with the affair partner. A comparison occurs in which the rush of being with the affair partner is juxtaposed against real life with the spouse and in large part because the affair is so powerful, the spouse becomes an obstacle standing in the way of happiness.

I think the overly critical aspects are really internal self-justification for the affair that get a sort of test run when criticizing the spouse. It is saying "you aren't good enough" without admitting "compared to ____."

BTW, this was the first thing I really noticed when my wife began contacting OM and it actually became one of the ways I could monitor for contact after D-day and once NC was supposed to be established. If she talked to him or got an email from him, she made it a point to be unhappy with almost everything I did or said. Even a day with no contact between them and she became less critical of me and our life together. A ten minute phone call could turn that around and she became certain that our marriage was hopeless and the reason her life was so miserable. More than once, she even made a point of calling me to complain or tell me she was done with me after talking to him, though they we're even making plans to spend their lives together.
Posted By: holdingontoit

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/07/16 01:53 AM

Mark: I do not doubt that your wife felt a need to instigate conflict with you after she contacted OM. I am in Withdrawal. My wife occasionally tries to entice me out of Withdrawal. When she does, I find myself picking a fight with her. I do not want to enter the zone of Conflict. I do not believe we have the ability to communicate and negotiate past Conflict to Intimacy. I squash her attempt to create Intimacy precisely because I understand we have to get through Conflict to get there, and I am unwilling to start that process. So I don't even have to think about it. When she reaches out, I don't merely withdraw. I get snippy. It is automatic. Almost a reflex. If I were in an affair, I am sure it would be much worse.
Posted By: Orchid2

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/12/16 02:45 AM

I find this subject quite interesting and like Hold, I'm in a similar quandary.

See all that tug of war from the WS time until now has actually worn me out. I told my H that once he took me to a limit that I asked him not to do, I couldn't guarantee things could ever be the same.

Now that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge change but it would be foolish for an Xws or even a Rws to expect a BS to just 'forgive and forget' it all.

My H thinks that as long as he doesn't hear a complaint or concern, all is well. He doesn't ask how we are doing or feelings. Maybe he is afraid of the answers. So both my son and I have to keep each other updated. This means I don't get any R from H and my son doesn't get a dad from his father. frown

Sad, H knows this but as long as we don't remind him of his shortcomings he is just fine. confused

This makes me regret letting him come back to our family. We have been truly short-changed.

Now this may sound strange and if you all start to think this Orchid is loosing a few petals, well....maybe. But for me my so called sub-conscience has been handling it (for years) but periodically giving me an out. A weird out, I must say. I'll share it with you and if you all start cracking up.......well, I can't hear it but it's ok. smile

I have dreams, not a dream, many dreams. Over the years many dreams (each time a different guy). No sex or anything close to an A. It's more of relationship dreams with many needs being met. They've included some pretty nice and handsome leading men (yea, me and G Clooney for one). Way before he got married. Many of them were more like movies yet quite fulfilling or sorts. Can't really explain.

Anyway, I wake with a feeling that I'm not a piece of cast aside lump of clay, that I have value left in me and that in a sense, keeps me going. I can't name them all, I don't even know some of their names but each encounter was fulfilling to me as a person.

It was never about sex but there was a lot of caring and sharing. Sometime I realize I miss big time in my life. I share lots of things with lots of folks, but on an intimate level, not so much.

So Hold, not sure if you are in the same area but if you are, you are not alone in this journey.

I periodically talk to BIL (H's younger bro), he just went through a D and confides in me a bit. He's an ocean away but I see him maturing well despite the slip his XW has given him. I'm glad he can get back on his feet.

Another friend is similar. His W stepped out on him as well but he is recovering ok. I'm glad that both of them and so many of the guys here give us women hope that not all men are flakes. I mean that with the greatest care, ya' know.

jmo,
Orchid
Posted By: Roxanne

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/13/16 09:31 AM

Hope you experienced posters don't mind if I pitch in...

Anyone else feel the irony life tosses us while in this mess? DH was lonely in the past, I'm lonely now. He was the ILYBINILWY, now I feel that way. Love ya, but not "in love". We have 26yrs of marriage and all I can see is a stranger in my bed.

Originally Posted By: LadyGrey
A huge ass red flag I sent up was that I stopped complaining to my husband about anything he did. I no longer cared what he did.


This is how I feel now as a BS with an xWS. I've stopped caring; to protect myself from his behavior, which is still a little WS-ish. I'm still waiting for the fog to lift, for both of us.

Originally Posted By: Orchid2

See all that tug of war from the WS time until now has actually worn me out. I told my H that once he took me to a limit that I asked him not to do, I couldn't guarantee things could ever be the same.

Now that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge change but it would be foolish for an Xws or even a Rws to expect a BS to just 'forgive and forget' it all.


I agree, the longer time a BS spends combatting an affair is like Chemo, the longer the exposure the more likely there is permanent damage. Still possible for a full recovery, but it takes a lot of effort.

Originally Posted By: Orchid2
My H thinks that as long as he doesn't hear a complaint or concern, all is well. He doesn't ask how we are doing or feelings. Maybe he is afraid of the answers. So both my son and I have to keep each other updated. This means I don't get any R from H and my son doesn't get a dad from his father. frown.


Ditto... We all pretend normal in the open. If we pretend long enough, maybe the wounds will spontaneously heal. (Just kidding..that's just more pretending.)


Originally Posted By: Orchid2
This makes me regret letting him come back to our family. We have been truly short-changed.


Can't say I regret trying to make things work. (Sigh) Statically, if I can hang in there it's better than divorce/ stepmoms / split home. Although, that can work fine too. Shortchanged ? YES! Seriously? What the hell happened? Poor kids lost their normal Dad, I lost my best friend and marriage. The affair Fallout destroyed aunt and uncle and grandparent relationships that will never recover.

Originally Posted By: Orchid2
So Hold, not sure if you are in the same area but if you are, you are not alone in this journey.

I periodically talk to BIL (H's younger bro), he just went through a D and confides in me a bit. He's an ocean away but I see him maturing well despite the slip his XW has given him. I'm glad he can get back on his feet.


The inner strength of the human soul is amazing, if we believe we are deserving of good things. The people who thrive after a "life events" move forward with hope and positive attitudes. Easier said than done, but wonderful things awaite those who meet the challenges of this world without holding onto the bitterness that so many feel entitled to. Oh, I have my hold a grudge days, but if I go after what I WANT and live in possibilities of the future, my days are better.
Posted By: holdingontoit

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/13/16 04:05 PM

Orchid: Glad your happy dreams help you to feel happier when you wake up. My subconscious is more consistent with my waking mind. All my dreams are nightmares of rejection and inadequacy. Luckily, I do not remember my dreams very often.

I snore. Mrs. Hold has suggested I get a CPAP machine so I could get deeper and more restful sleep. Is she crazy? More dreams? No way! eek crazy
Posted By: Orchid2

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/13/16 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Orchid: Glad your happy dreams help you to feel happier when you wake up. My subconscious is more consistent with my waking mind. All my dreams are nightmares of rejection and inadequacy. Luckily, I do not remember my dreams very often.

I snore. Mrs. Hold has suggested I get a CPAP machine so I could get deeper and more restful sleep. Is she crazy? More dreams? No way! eek crazy


Hold,

Those dreams are sporadic. I don't get to just call one up when I feel a bit blue. frown

Still when they come it is refreshing but sadly, just a dream and I must never forget that fact. So I trudge along.

Btw, I snore as well but haven't so much since I decided to have fans blow on me while sleeping. Out here due to the weather we can do that all year long plus I try to keep a small homemade cotton baby size blanket or something similar rolled up and put under my chin to keep my head up. Less snoring.

Seems to help. Thinking about getting the 'my pillow' next.

Sigh, now you all know my deepest darkest sleeping secrets. LOL!!!! A snoring Orchid. eek

My grandmother used to sleep with an 'iron pillow'. It put just the right pressure in the just the right spot. When my grandmother passed, my aunty took it. frown Never found another one like it.

Orchid
Posted By: holdingontoit

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 09/15/16 01:45 PM

If you get the 'my pillow' please let us know your experience with it.
Posted By: Lil

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 05/20/21 09:11 AM

Did this ever get finished?
Posted By: star*fish

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 05/20/21 01:34 PM

No it didn't--I might revisit that.
Posted By: Ace

Re: Star's Infidelity University - 05/25/21 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
If you get the 'my pillow' please let us know your experience with it.


I know this quote is 5 years old but we have experienced "my pillow" for a few years now and they work well for me and my family.

Originally Posted by star*fish
No it didn't--I might revisit that.


Star, it would be great if you revisited completing and publishing this.
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