Marriage Advocates

The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase

Posted By: Lil

The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/20/10 07:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.
original article here
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/20/10 08:05 AM

Plan B. Bane, sanctuary, stepping outside the comfort zone into the dark unknown.

What many do not realise is that Plan B is, in essence, PLAN 'ME' In plan B there is no more being on your best behaviour around your WS. There is no more second guessing, no more having the dirty ugliness of the affair rubbed into your face daily. In plan B its all about you, baby. YOUR life, YOUR desires, YOUR future.

Plan B is the culmination of a plan A. It should be an absolutely seamless transition from plan A. Before entering plan B be very sure you are ready because there is no going back. Think carefully about the last memories you wish to leave the WS about you. Are they going to be of you crying, begging, pleading? Or of you being confident, happy, secure, busy and fun - at least to all appearances. Plan A rarely leads to marital recovery by itself, plan B has no more or less a success rate. Plan B is only as effective as the plan A you enacted. Plan B is NOT a guarantee the marriage will be saved.

Plan B is not to punish the wayward spouse - although they will feel that it is, and behave accordingly. Plan B has many purposes:

* to let the WS see what life with out the BS will be like (a preview of divorce)
* to stop the BS from being exposed to the ongoing abuse that is infidelity
* to remove the BS from the never ending drama's the WS and OP often thrive upon
* to protect the BS's love bank to it does not get withdrawn to the level of hate
* puts the burden of filling the WS's EN's entirely upon the OP - something very few can do for very long
* allows the BS healing time, time to make a life for themselves apart from the WS, and recover personally.
* allows the love balance the BS has for the WS to die away naturally
Posted By: OurHouse

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/20/10 02:17 PM

Thanks for posting this Lil. A lot of folks have come over here from DB or other places and when we toss around terms like Plan A and Plan B...I'm not sure they completely get it. Heck, it took me about 6 months of hanging around the MB forum and reading Harley's books and articles to get it! And given the DB advice of living 'as if' and waiting it out...well Plan B is a radical departure. Get into it too soon and you are setting yourself up for failure.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/22/10 09:11 PM

So far in my plan b the no contact actually made me calmer, and I noticed when he contacted me about things he usually did it makes me nervous and then when I respond differently he then does not contact back. So the boundaries and not contacting do make me feel calmer.

A long haul of this I worry about, but instead of having fear I should look at it as me being stronger.

And I am seeing that I dealt with verbal abuse since when I do not respond like I use to he gets angry. I mentioned it to my daughter and she said he was always like that, I missed it, see I got use to it.

So plan b is a refuge I need to be comforted by it not afraid of it.

And you are all so strong and with so much support, that is such a godsend.
tink
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/22/10 09:42 PM

Basic elements of a Plan B letter:

1. Make it a love letter (apologies for your 50%, and how you can or will correct. DO NOT apologise for things that are nothing to do with you)
2. No lovebusters
3. Make "NO CONTACT" clear
4. Make unambiguous the "condition" of return to marital relationships
5. Limit references to OP
6. Plan out the logistics (as best as possible)
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/22/10 09:53 PM

Why a written letter? Why not just tell the WS or talk about it?

Plan B requires a great deal of persistence on the behalf of the BS to resist temporary, incomplete and insincere return attempts, by the WS, through attempted contact. This contact has to be seen for it's dishonest and insincere intent.

Being able to refer to a permanent hard copy, makes the "no contact" rule easier to apply and reduces any guess work.
Drafting the Plan B letter gives the BS an opportunity to think through acceptance of the 2 end results. If you're not ready for them, you're not ready for Plan B.

The end results are:
-The return of the wayward spouse, leading to marital recovery, or;
-Permanent separation, leading to divorce, and a chance of a new relationship.

Why does plan B require there be no contact?
You can't protect the little bit of love you have left in your Love Bank necessary for any future reconciliation
You can't become independent
You can't really eliminate satisfying your WS's EN's
Personal growth will be coloured by WS's influence
There have been ample examples of BSs being strung along indefinitely by their WS when contact is allowed.
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/27/10 12:00 AM

Hey Lil,
Good job on getting this Plan B stuff going.
I'm just starting to go through this now and will toss out some thoughts.

Originally Posted By: lildoggie
Basic elements of a Plan B letter:

1. Make it a love letter (apologies & how you can/will correct)
2. No lovebusters
3. Make "NO CONTACT" clear
4. Make unambiguous the "condition" of return to marital relationships
5. Limit references to OP
6. Plan out the logistics (as best as possible)

I don't think of a Plan B letter as a love letter, ending with one I love you, yes/maybe depending on the
sitch and state of the WS (is WS waffling between OP and BS).
Can you clarify what you think of as a 'love letter', please and thank you!

References to OP, I don't think there should be any. Mentioning the OP steers the focus off of the BS and the M.
The Plan B letter should be strictly about the BS and the WS, and the path back to the M, IMO.
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/27/10 12:15 AM

red=mine

Plan B is not to punish the wayward spouse - although they will feel that it is, and behave accordingly. Plan B has many purposes:

* to let the WS see what life with out the BS will be like (a preview of divorce)
* to stop the BS from being exposed to the ongoing abuse that is infidelity
* to remove the BS from the never ending drama's the WS and OP often thrive upon
* to protect the BS's love bank to it does not get withdrawn to the level of hate
* puts the burden of filling the WS's EN's entirely upon the OP - something very few can do for very long

* allows the BS healing time, time to make a life for themselves apart from the WS, and recover personally.
(this is a huge one, you don't realize how distraught and exhausted you are emotionally, until the drama has stopped)

* allows the love balance the BS has for the WS to die away naturally

* puts an end to cake-eating which is what a WS will do indefinitely if allowed to
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/28/10 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Vittoria

I don't think of a Plan B letter as a love letter, ending with one I love you, yes/maybe depending on the
sitch and state of the WS (is WS waffling between OP and BS).
Can you clarify what you think of as a 'love letter', please and thank you!

References to OP, I don't think there should be any. Mentioning the OP steers the focus off of the BS and the M.
The Plan B letter should be strictly about the BS and the WS, and the path back to the M, IMO.


The love letter idea for me, is NOT writing something that says in essence "hey, [Bleep!], dump the maggot and get yer butt back home or I'll take you for everything you've got" grin

Seriously, I do believe you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, and it costs nothing to be polite, and show some care in a plan B letter. After all, the WS who reads it is going to just see it as a punishment letter anyway, you don't actually need to add more fuel to their mistaken, foggy beliefs.

So start the letter nicely (dear WS, I have been your spouse for X years and up until recently have cherished that time), then all the rest of the stuff including the fact that the reason for writing the letter is to protect any good feelings you have remaining for the WS. I also consider the apology to be an important part of showing the love. As the apology is written down on paper, it cannot be denied by the WS, like they choose to do with anything the BS says. The only hearing more selective than a WS, is that of kids being asked to pick up their bedrooms. You dont have to write the apology, and some may chose not to. I just did because as I have said many times, my MAJOR reason for going all the way thru plan A and plan B was so I was 100% positive I had done all I could to save my M. Nothing left to tick or cross off. No guilt, no remorse, a clear conscience for the rest of my life.

The only reference to the OP needs to be "until OP is out of your life/you agree to NC with OP, there will be no recovery". Its why I said to limit it smile Believe or not, I have read peoples first draft PBL's that banged on and on about the OP to the point, they might as well call it "I want to love bust your butt by running down the OP while I still can".
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/28/10 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
red=mine

Plan B is not to punish the wayward spouse - although they will feel that it is, and behave accordingly. Plan B has many purposes:

* to let the WS see what life with out the BS will be like (a preview of divorce)
* to stop the BS from being exposed to the ongoing abuse that is infidelity
* to remove the BS from the never ending drama's the WS and OP often thrive upon
* to protect the BS's love bank to it does not get withdrawn to the level of hate
* puts the burden of filling the WS's EN's entirely upon the OP - something very few can do for very long

* allows the BS healing time, time to make a life for themselves apart from the WS, and recover personally.
(this is a huge one, you don't realize how distraught and exhausted you are emotionally, until the drama has stopped)

* allows the love balance the BS has for the WS to die away naturally

* puts an end to cake-eating which is what a WS will do indefinitely if allowed to


excellent additions!
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/30/10 02:19 AM

Originally Posted By: lildoggie
Originally Posted By: Vittoria

I don't think of a Plan B letter as a love letter, ending with one I love you, yes/maybe depending on the
sitch and state of the WS (is WS waffling between OP and BS).
Can you clarify what you think of as a 'love letter', please and thank you!

References to OP, I don't think there should be any. Mentioning the OP steers the focus off of the BS and the M.
The Plan B letter should be strictly about the BS and the WS, and the path back to the M, IMO.


The love letter idea for me, is not writing something that says in essence "hey, *ssh*l*, dump the maggot and get yer butt back home or I'll do you for everything" grin

Seriously, I do believe you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar,and its costs nothing to be polite, and showing some care in a plan B letter. After all, the WS who reads it is going to just see it as a punishment letter anyway, so you don't actually need to add more fuel to their beliefs.

So start the letter nicely (dear WS, I have been your spouse for X years and up until recently have cherished that time), then all the rest of the stuff including the fact that the reason for writing the letter is to protect any good feelings you have remaining for the WS. I also consider the apology to be an important part of showing the love. The apology is written down on paper and cannot be denied by the WS, like they choose to do with anything the BS says. The only hearing more selective than a WS, is that of kids being asked to pick up their bedrooms. You dont have to write the apology, and some may chose not to. I just did because as I have said many times, my MAJOR reason for going all the way thru plan A and plan B was so I was 100% positive I had done all I could to save my M. Nothing left to tick or cross off. No guilt, no remorse, a clear conscience for the rest of my life.

The only reference to the OP needs to be "until OP is out of your life/you agree to NC with OP, there will be no recovery". Its why I said to limit it smile Believe or not, I have read peoples first draft PBL's that banged on and on about the OP to the point, they might as well call it "I want to love bust your butt about OP while I still can".

Totally agree. I believe that we are on the same page, the clarification was more for posters who might
misinterpret the meaning, the ones that aren't real familiar with the purpose.

Thanks for expanding on it, your lists are good! smile
Posted By: Larry

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/30/10 02:33 AM


One of the ways of looking at Plan B, which is a horrible name, is to call it the protection phase. Penny Tupy devised that name, or had some help devising that name and it resonates better, imho. I might even know the source of the "Help" but won't say until they out themselves wink

Larry
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/30/10 02:43 AM

I actually like that phrase better, Larry. (Protection Phase)
It explain the purpose much more clearer.
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/01/11 02:58 PM

Wanted to tuck this here for easy reference, wasn't sure where else to tuck it.
This sounds like a great way to communicate kids schedules and transfers for BS's in Plan B, with WS's.
Eliminates the drama associated with texting.

http://www.cozi.com/family-calendar.htm

Thanks goes to Allen, he was the first to post on this link.
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/07/11 01:39 AM

test post

edit ...... nope, didn't work.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/07/11 04:56 AM

you were too fast smile
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/10/11 07:06 PM

These are the 3 best known "plan B" letters. Dr Harley's is primarily directed at those who are experiencing infidelity in the marital breakdown, Dr Dobson and Penny T's are more generic. Because I want them all on one post for comparison, I have coloured each separately so as to make it easier to identify the start and finish of each one.

Dr W. Harley. Surviving an Affair - pg80:

My Dear Sue,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with Greg possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Greg once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friends, Jane and Paul have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like. But I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through Jane and Paul.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with Greg, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with him. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Greg and are willing to follow the measures that were suggested to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing Greg.

With my love,
Jon

(Note to Greg: I love Sue with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for her to give me that chance.)


Penny Tuppy: Protection Phase Letter:

Dear ________,

I love you and I married you for life. I want to remain married to you. I am willing and committed to doing what it takes to be the spouse you've always wanted and to address the things that I did wrong in our marriage.

The affair/neglect/abuse is so painful for me that it will destroy the love I have for you. In order to protect those feelings I must end all contact with you. As soon as the affair/neglect/abuse is over I would love to talk with you about our future. Until that time please respect my wish for no contact whatsoever in any form.

In an emergency you can reach me through ______. Arrangements for seeing children and handling finances are_____.

Sincerely,
[YOUR NAME]


Dr Dobson - Love must be tough:

John, I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage and, obviously, I have to let you go…You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make. The Lord has been with me thus far, and He'll go with me in the future…I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/12/11 07:17 PM

For those of you struggling to put together this type of letter, lildoggie and I have put together some tips/explanations to help with this.
Any questions, comments ...... throw them out here, they're all welcome. There are many of us around who understand this type of letter.
It's a hard one to write, that's for sure, it's also a necessary one to ensure that the WS fully understands your intentions.


The Darkside Letter

Constructive
* Let him/her know that you believe in the ability to recover your M and make it better, and that this is possible.

* Write one I love you as a simple statement, not gushing repeatedly throughout a paragraph.
This can be annoying to an entrenched WS and gives the impression of a pining BS.

* Make clear that you are certain that you will not stay in a marriage where you share your spouse with anyone.

* Let him/her know how hurtful it is to continue on with any contact with them while they are in the A. Stating your hurt is truth, it's reality, this does not fall into any lovebuster category.

* Make it clear that to preserve love for the WS it is necessary to stop all contact with them. You will not accept voice calls, text, or email.
Sticking to this boundary that you are setting up is vital to your well being and starves your spouse of any 'fix' that they get from you.

* Make it clear that this no contact with them is not an option and one that you need to be respected.

* Provide info on who/how to communicate child exchanges, legal dealings, emergencies. Willingness to discuss reconciliation is to go through the IM/filter person. This last bit is important since a WS may try to break NC with the BS and use M talk as an excuse.

* Include your conditions of their return to the M. No contact forever with OM/OW, this is non-negotiable. Marriage counseling/support/program
of your choice. (you can use those exact words since the specific support can be figured out later if need be)
Complete transparency as dictated by the BS. These may include all passwords, free view of cell phones etc.
(There are more steps taken to rebuild the M and heal the BS, these can be discussed when/if the WS returns to the M.)

* Make a copy or two, just in case the WS accidentally loses the letter and plays confused over the conditions.

You are offering them the M as a choice, with conditions, while protecting yourself from the A drama and allowing yourself to heal.
This letter is about you, what you will accept. What you will accept is all that you have control over.



Options to include (some folks like more in a letter, this is yours to write not ours)
* Use a statement that conveys hope for a future with them.

* Can include eliminating the factors that made the A possible in the first place. This may or may not be relevant.

* Acknowledge your wrongdoings and give recognition to the fact that you are working to correct these. (The WS usually does notice these changes)

* End the letter with sincerely, lovingly, or just your name.

Not constructive
* Discuss or warn your spouse of going dark prior to letter, remember that this is not a threat or ultimatum. It is a boundary that you enforce.

* Make this a lengthy letter, max 4 short paragraphs is best (only one with your feelings, all else is info). The attention span of a WS to your words is limited.

* Acknowledging their A actions as being right in any way or take responsibility for the A.

* Stating that you will love the WS forever, this implies that you will wait indefinitely for them to return to the M.

* Repeat yourself over and over, one paragraph with one purpose.

* Using phrases like 'I deserve .....', a WS will turn this around and tell themselves the same, the very phrase that warped their thinking into an A.

* Give indication that you support their actions in D.

* Using this letter as a ' I've had it, I'm done, hope you have a good life .... ' message. If you are done with the M and refuse any reconciliation, this is not likely the letter that you want to use.

Remember that you didn't force your spouse to meet you at the altar with words, likewise, you can't force them to return to the M with words.
Posted By: wiser_now

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/13/11 04:05 PM

A Personal Reflection on the Importance of this step in recovering your marriage:

Going Dark (also called Plan B) is not about the other person (your cheating spouse). This is the statement that has been said directly and implied throughout this this thread and bears repeating: IT IS NOT ABOUT THEM. IT IS ABOUT YOU. Period.

It is about PROTECTING YOURSELF from the drama an affair brings into YOUR LIFE (and your children's lives, if you have them).

Yes, you want to save your marriage. Of course! But what you're doing so far hasn't worked anyway, has it? Time to try something new and bold.

The posts (and links) throughout this thread are excellent and tell you step by step how to achieve a perfect Plan B.

I'd like to focus on this: TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

If you get the added benefit of saving your marriage, it is a blessing, to be sure. And yes, your unsaid ultimate GOAL in this plan may be to save your marriage... and if that's the case there are some things to consider:

Your spouse has to want to return - and they won't if they don't you as an attractive alternative. I'm not talking about physical attractiveness here, though it may factor if this is one of their emotional needs.

I'm talking about something that few of us want to admit...

Think about this for a moment - OP is light, happy to see them, no strings attached, no bills, no diapers... just 100% joy (not saying this is TRUE, but how it LOOKS to the WS)...

... and then there's you... the betrayed spouse... sad, mopey, desperate, clingy and angry... wanting answers and money and help. (TOTALLY NORMAL, by the way.)

So, here's the neat thing about going dark. You're going through the feelings that are very normal and THEY DON'T SEE THEM. They don't know what the heck is going on with you. They don't see the anger, the hurt or the struggles. They have no idea if you're happy or sad, moving forward or backward.

At the same time, you have now allowed the OP to do all the work of care-taking and meeting the emotional needs of your spouse. And this, quite often, is a very good thing. See, up until this point, you have been taking the brunt of your spouses negative emotions... possibly doing their laundry... you know, those everyday things that happen day to day.

Now, the OP will have to take it all. And most, as we have seen time and time again, DON'T WANT IT. They want the la-la happy times with the OP... not reality.

I know, I know... you think they'll forget you. They won't. But I they might want to if they continue having to deal with all the emotions you have inside - again, totally normal and valid.

Many wayward spouses thrive on the drama they create - and many betrayed spouses thrive on bits of information about what the wayward is doing... and then wallowing in it. Plan B saves you both kinds of drama.

I wrote this because I am home reading today and see throughout so many threads, time and time again, excuses for not going dark (or Plan B in MB parlance). It is such an incredibly powerful tool that I hate to see it maligned or misunderstood. There are links and advice throughout this thread... don't just listen to me.

My post will bring this back up to the top... and I hope others in limbo will read through this... and find hope.
Posted By: girlfromipanema

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/20/11 01:57 AM

Would it be possible to implement Plan B when you work with your spouse?
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/20/11 04:26 AM

Difficult, since Plan B is about removing yourself from any and all interactions with the WS.

Faith works with her XWH, she has turned plan B while seeing him and OW into an art form. Essentially she pretends he does not exist, unless she can do so in a way that allows her to maintain the upper hand. I gather he finds it very uncomfortable. She is not particularly interested in recovery though.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/21/11 05:32 AM

It feels like I am being punished, and I think he is fine, he drives right behind our house to go to and from work. He isn't calling. I am thinking I don't know what to think. What if I forget him? Can that happen? Anyway, I read the bible before I go to sleep at night, if I wake up at night I sometimes cry, I really miss him. This is so unfair, I was true to him, am true to him now. I hope this is normal.

tink
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/21/11 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: girlfromipanema
Would it be possible to implement Plan B when you work with your spouse?


I hope so, since the wayward found it possible to cheat while working with their spouse.

If you worked with them, you would just have to. How to do that without going nuts?

tink
Posted By: Mark1952

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/21/11 03:19 PM

Can't really Plan B while working together or living in the same house or attending the same functions week after week. Seeing the WS defeats the point of Plan B which is not really to do anything to or about the affair but to prevent further hurt and suffering by the BS in response to a continuing affair in light of discovery and confrontation.

The same applies to NC between affair partners. Can't work side by side and have no contact. Can't be at all the same places, especially places relative to or that led to the affair and have no contact.

What if you work together?

Somebody has to not work there for it to actually do what it is supposed to do.

Tink, it is normal for you to miss him, to long for him, to wonder about the "what if" kind of stuff. And yes, it might be possible that you will forget him in time.

In Plan B the BS gets to begin the healing process that MUST happen before building a new marriage can happen and also must happen before building a new relationship of any kind with someone else can take place Plan B stops the emotional roller coaster with time and allows for choices made from logic, data, information, clear thoughts instead of emotional reactions based on fear, anxiety, self doubt...

Harley suggests a two year Plan B for two different and important reasons. First, the majority of affairs ends before that time and in many cases the wayward spouse seeks to return to the marriage or at least makes some attempt to negotiate return though fear of reprisal often prevents any real remorse early on.

The second reason Harley suggests two years is that two years is about the time it takes to become emotionally stable after a traumatic event and that assumes you actually WORK at becoming emotionally stable.

So Plan B must stop the insanity, progress through the steps of grieving, arrive at the place of acceptance and then begin to make choices regarding the rest of your life without the fear, longing, fond memories, anger, anxiety...ALL the emotions that poor out during the process.

Every time you interact, attempt to negotiate return of the wayward spouse or inventory the memories of good times your emotional clock is reset to zero and you have to start again. Each time takes a little less time to process since unproductive steps will be skipped in subsequent attempts to move on but before long the longing and good memories are replaced by loathing, hatred and the once so missed WS is now despised as the devil or a demon from hell.

If you haven't chosen to move on and divorce after some short period of trying to bring the affair to an end, and for some reason see a possible hope to reconcile in the future, then Plan B lets you stop being damaged beyond what you can recover from in a reasonable amount of time while waiting to either decide to accept the inevitable or the affair to end and attempts at reconciliation to be made.

You see, as long as you are waking up in the middle of the night and crying over what might have been, you are not yet at the place where you can make choices that are based on what you know to be true or what you actually choose to do. As long as the missing him is the defining factor of your reality, you can't move on and unless the affair ends quickly and he becomes a model FWS, full of remorse, regret and restitution you won't even know what to do if he tries to reconcile.
Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/21/11 07:42 PM

Personally, Plan B, as practiced and preached at MB, is just too elementary school for me to be taken seriously.

It makes a weak BH appear even weaker ... "I'm seperating myself to preserve any remaining love I have for you" just screams WEAKNESS by running away from your problems, rather than facing up to them head on.

Also, involving an IM into your marital problems is too much like passing notes in grade school. PLUS, it inserts another 3rd party into your M, which is what got you here in the first place. Once again, it sends a message to WW that BH isn't strong enough to take care of his own business and just strengthens her lack of respect for BH.

BUT ... on a positive note if your name is [edit] ... it keeps people in limbo long enough to sell them additional books and counselling sessions. wink

Edit way after the fact based on a notify. MyRev, you are welcome to take issue with the methods and offer your own recommendations. However, you are not free to accuse someone of creating a failing strategy in order to make money. This is defamatory even if the person is a public figure.
Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/22/11 04:06 AM

Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
Personally, Plan B, as practiced and preached at MB, is just too elementary school for me to be taken seriously.


I find this interesting, MyRev, since I haven't seen you post an alternate plan besides what I would sum up as, "Do what I want you to do right now, or we can't be friends anymore." Do you not also think that is elementary school?

Plan B is backed up by the published research of Biological Anthropologist Helen Fisher, PhD. Any exposure to a person reinforces the biochemical response to that person and is counter-productive to detachment and moving on. Plan B minimizes any hurt/harm to either party by the other. Plan B prevents the BS from meeting any of the WS's emotional needs.

Quote:
It makes a weak BH appear even weaker ... "I'm seperating myself to preserve any remaining love I have for you" just screams WEAKNESS by running away from your problems, rather than facing up to them head on.


The man (I have to qualify man, because you only ever talk about how this affects a BH) appears weaker to whom? You?

Quote:
Also, involving an IM into your marital problems is too much like passing notes in grade school.


Interesting thought. How is it like passing notes in grade school?

Quote:
PLUS, it inserts another 3rd party into your M, which is what got you here in the first place.


Another interesting thought. How is an email intermediary similar to an affair partner? Can you elaborate on this thought?

Do you think the same about involving a marriage counselor?

Quote:
Once again, it sends a message to WW that BH isn't strong enough to take care of his own business and just strengthens her lack of respect for BH.


Once again, the almost exclusive focus on the WW's predicted perception of the BH's relative strength or weakness. Do you have a citation for this?

I'd also like you to ponder the difference between being strong and being a domineering jerk. Where is the line there?

Quote:
BUT ... on a positive note if your name is [****] ... it keeps people in limbo long enough to sell them additional books and counselling sessions. wink


I have to admit that I am not qualified to speculate on the motivations of [****] or [****]. Can you tell me the source of your information?
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/22/11 02:45 PM

Your perception of Plan B is different than mine, My Rev.

I see two paths after infidelity is discovered. Recovery or Divorce.
Divorce speaks for itself and is a straight line to that goal.
Recovery, hmm, not so much.

Divorce requires only the BS to follow through on that goal, while Recovery requires both spouses.
The perfect scenario is that Recovery is agreed upon by both spouses and they begin down that road.
Not everyone is fortunate to have this happen.

What happens when a BS wants to try to save the M, their M, their history, their life? Or they are unsure about the path to take.
We know it's not wise to make life changing decisions in haste while being an emotional basket case.
Some BS's feel good with the D decision immediately, some are unsure and incapable of making it.

Although the WS indicates they are not wanting R, the BS wants to try, or at the very least wait to see how things pan out.
Their choice, again their M, their history and their life. It's the BS who lives with their choices.

Rather than be subjected to the WS's disrespect and drama, what recourse does the BS have,
----> removing themselves from the situation to keep sanity and integrity intact, until they choose a different path.

The primary goal is to protect the BS, regarding their decision to attempt R if that is possible, down the road.

It comes down to respecting the decision of the BS.
Respecting the choice of D rather than R, is no different than respecting the choice of R, rather than D.
I've not ever had a problem with all POV's regarding R or D is given to posters, I think it's good when outside perspectives are voiced.

This dark phase, to me, shows more integrity than engaging in the drama with a WS, while waiting to see if R is possible.


Originally Posted By: MyRevelation
It makes a weak BH appear even weaker ... "I'm seperating myself to preserve any remaining love I have for you" just screams WEAKNESS by running away from your problems, rather than facing up to them head on.

Again, what if the BS does not want to D??? Can't make someone D.
I do know what you mean, here. I've never liked that wording.
Basically, I see this as a better way of saying ' If I keep myself in your life right now, I will end up hating your guts, so gotta go.'

I can't remember exactly how I worded this part in my Plan B letter, it was different than what you quoted above.
Important to remember too, these are simply guidelines to help clarify and direct, tweaks are fine and situation specific.
Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/22/11 04:12 PM

V & AR,

I think I've made it pretty clear, I limit my posting to BH/WW scenarios. Personally, I see two completely different sets of problems, issues, personalities, etc. Therefore, I don't feel qualified or comfortable posting to a BW about her WH, because I simply have no experience in what she is facing.

If I may suggest ... I think that is where we are getting crossways in our interpretations. It "appears" to me that Plan A & B may have more benefit for a BW. However, my experience has shown that they are practically worthless, and even harmful, for a BH.

I really don't feel the plans are effectively interchangeable between the sexes.

Before we go any further, can we agree on that point?

If not, then we are likely not going to get very far in communicating about the rest, as that is the basic foundation of how I approach my posting and is the beginning point where I differ from the MB approach.

Thoughts???
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/22/11 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: MyRev
I really don't feel the plans are effectively interchangeable between the sexes.

Before we go any further, can we agree on that point?

At first I thought, yes and no.
I started typing out my 'yes' reasons, thought a bit and came up with ...... well, not really, that doesn't matter if the WS is male or female.

To me, the difference isn't in the sex of the WS, it's whether or not at the time of confrontation, the WS decides to end the A.
Plan A for one week (IMO), if it's evident that the A is still ongoing ----> Plan B.
The time frame is up to the BS.

What do you see as differences that change the plans?
btw, I strongly believe that Plan A is easily interpreted by many as Plan Doormat.

I'm curious as to what plan you have for someone who doesn't want to D.





Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/22/11 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
What do you see as differences that change the plans?
btw, I strongly believe that Plan A is easily interpreted by many as Plan Doormat.

I'm curious as to what plan you have for someone who doesn't want to D.



First, let me say I'm speaking in generalities and painting with a broad brush, but I think that's what we're doing here, rather than drilling down into a specific situation.

With that frame of reference, I see "most" men entering into an A as more of taking advantage of an opportunity, with little emotional investment. On the flip side, I see "most" women stuffing down long term marital issues until they reach their own personal limit and seek out other companionship. They are ripe for that emotional outlet, and quickly "fall" for the best available option. In their mind, they have already left the M, and are moving on to the next phase of their lives, and in "most" cases the WW is more invested in the A than the OM.

Therefore, I advocate a swift, quick "come to Jesus" ultimatum, so the BH knows exactly where he stands immediately. Sometimes, it shocks the WW into reconcilliation, most times it leads to the inevitable D. Either way, the BH avoids the worst case scenario ... IMHO, others may differ ... LIMBO. I can go into more depth for my reasoning, if you would like, but at the moment, I'll keep it as a brief overview.

As for what to do with a BH who doesn't want to D? I'm afraid my response will be less than satisfying, but I advocate a hard dose of reality ... it takes 2 to R, but only 1 to D, and if the WW has effectively left the M ... she can close the deal all by herself, and the BH can accept that fact and act accordingly, or he can get ran over by the D train.

You see, to my mind, my self-respect is of prime importance, because I can't be a quality partner, a good provider, a leader of my family, or much of a man if I can't look in the mirror with some level of pride in the guy looking back at me. I simply can't advocate throwing away self-respect to woo someone back who has already left me and betrayed my trust. If there is to be a true R, then the WW must be willing to "earn" back that trust, while allowing me to maintain my level of self-respect.

I understand we're dealing with basic differences in the way men and women communicate and express the relative importance of our needs, and you may in fact disagree with me, but do you at least "understand" my perspective before we go on?
Posted By: Medc

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/22/11 09:38 PM

Well said Myrev.
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 02:20 AM

I started replying back to more of your post and then realized that this thread would likely take on a whole new dimension, of how to deal with WS's from the get go. That's not what this thread is for.


So I'm concentrating on this .....
Quote:
As for what to do with a BH who doesn't want to D? I'm afraid my response will be less than satisfying, but I advocate a hard dose of reality ... it takes 2 to R, but only 1 to D, and if the WW has effectively left the M ... she can close the deal all by herself, and the BH can accept that fact and act accordingly, or he can get ran over by the D train.

What would you suggest to a BH who does not want D, right now?


Briefly .... I see your point about the differences of A's and the genders.
I disagree that integrity is only maintained your way, allows no room for recovery is the WS doesn't snap out of it in 60 seconds.


Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 03:26 AM

Plan B is backed up by the published research of Biological Anthropologist Helen Fisher, PhD. Any exposure to a person reinforces the biochemical response to that person and is counter-productive to detachment and moving on. Plan B minimizes any hurt/harm to either party by the other. Plan B prevents the BS from meeting any of the WS's emotional needs.

AntigoneRisen what you posted, fantastic.

tink

Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 03:34 AM

I hate adultery.

tink
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 08:40 AM

Plan B stuff

Plan B is not implemented with the consent of the wayward; Plan B is implemented with the force of law. Whenever Dr. Harley talk's about it, he explains that you go into Plan A starting out by researching what it will take under the law to implement Plan B in your state, and that usually starts with talking to a lawyer.

In plan B, you will need to completely separate from your WS. You can't simply move out of the bedroom. You must move from the house, or have WS move. If you live in a state that supports legal separation, go to the trouble to see an attorney so that all financial and legal arrangements are made in advance. Be sure that you can support yourself for an extended period of time, such as a year.

In Plan B, you cut off all communication with your wayward spouse. Having shown them how wonderful a person you can be as a marriage partner, you remove yourself from their lives to show them how bad it is out there without you. In Plan A, fence-sitting is almost unavoidable. Your wayward spouse gets some of their emotional needs met by you and others met by the other person. In Plan B, you suddenly, and completely, stop providing those needs you had been filling for your spouse. When they aren't being met, it increases strife in that fantasy world your spouse and his or her partner in adultery have in common with only each other. Strife begets pressure. Pressure begets unhappiness. Unhappiness begets separation, and you win.

You can have the current joint credit cards cancelled and new ones issued only in your name. You need to make sure the WS can't drain checking & savings accounts. You might need to establish checking accounts the WS cannot access. Make sure you have access to enough cash/assets to pay the bills, etc. Powers of attorney might need to be looked at, if any are currently in effect. Dont agree to any new obligations, new second mortgages, new cars, commit to paying WSs expenses, etc.
Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I started replying back to more of your post and then realized that this thread would likely take on a whole new dimension, of how to deal with WS's from the get go. That's not what this thread is for.


So I'm concentrating on this .....
Quote:
As for what to do with a BH who doesn't want to D? I'm afraid my response will be less than satisfying, but I advocate a hard dose of reality ... it takes 2 to R, but only 1 to D, and if the WW has effectively left the M ... she can close the deal all by herself, and the BH can accept that fact and act accordingly, or he can get ran over by the D train.

What would you suggest to a BH who does not want D, right now?


Asked and answered with what you quoted from my previous post above. Whether a BH wants a D or not is really irrelevant IRL. The WW can file and finalize the D, regardless of her BH's feelings on the matter.

However, to expand on the BH's plight, he is not without some weapons. He can take the wimpy Plan B route and simply cut off contact, while the WW takes him to the cleaners in a D, which we see way too often with this type of approach. OR, he can man-up and really give WW a dose of reality, by FIGHTING for the best possible property settlement and custody agreement he can get and in the mean time, give the WW a full helping of reality by showing her exactly what life will look like post-D, rather than the fantasy she has cooked up in her head. In the process, she may just accidentally pull her head out, or she may not.

Basically, the purpose is to avoid LIMBO at all costs, by fighting for your own rights, while maintaining your integrity and self-respect.
Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: lildoggie
In Plan A, fence-sitting is almost unavoidable.


... and the above quote is EXACTLY why Plan A is a disaster for BH's.

It is completely unthinkable for me to imagine a scenario where I would be playing nice, and kissing my WW's @$$ by trying to meet ANY of her EN's, while I HAVE KNOWLEDGE that she is actively involved with OM.

I WOULD RATHER LOSE MY W, THAN TO SHARE HER!!!

It goes back to my previous points about self-respect, and why I value my own self-respect, more than I value my M.

Posted By: Medc

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 06:19 PM

Quote:
I WOULD RATHER LOSE MY W, THAN TO SHARE HER!!!


YES!
Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 08:15 PM

Quote:
Before we go any further


Further? I don't see that you've actually addressed my post. If you have, and I'm missing it, please point me to it.

Quote:
I think I've made it pretty clear, I limit my posting to BH/WW scenarios.


I know you do. I find it quite suspect, in fact.

Quote:
Personally, I see two completely different sets of problems, issues, personalities, etc.


You determine a personality based upon gender?

Quote:
If I may suggest ... I think that is where we are getting crossways in our interpretations. It "appears" to me that Plan A & B may have more benefit for a BW.


Why?

I'm still not certain you even understand what either plan says. By this I mean what Harley says, and not the advice often given on the boards by people who also have a poor comprehension of the material.

Quote:
However, my experience has shown that they are practically worthless, and even harmful, for a BH.


"My experience" is pretty vague, and you've yet to elaborate upon that.

Quote:
I really don't feel the plans are effectively interchangeable between the sexes.


You've reached this conclusion based upon what, exactly? You never are quite clear on that.

Quote:
Before we go any further, can we agree on that point?


Not really. Fisher's work did not identify a difference in the biochemical processes in the sexes. In an individual situation, sure, I might advise changes due to socialization and individual behavioral patterns.

Quote:
If not, then we are likely not going to get very far in communicating about the rest, as that is the basic foundation of how I approach my posting and is the beginning point where I differ from the MB approach.


Probably not. Let me sum up how I interpret your view. "Man ego/pride important and cannot be compromised." This includes an assumption that it is more important than ego/pride for a woman. No, we will not agree on that.
Posted By: AntigoneRisen

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/23/11 08:28 PM

Quote:
Whether a BH wants a D or not is really irrelevant IRL. The WW can file and finalize the D, regardless of her BH's feelings on the matter.


So, because the WW will ignore the BH's feelings on the matter, you do, too? You are going to have to explain the logic behind that to me.
Posted By: Medc

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/24/11 12:47 AM

Originally Posted By: AntigoneRisen
Quote:
Whether a BH wants a D or not is really irrelevant IRL. The WW can file and finalize the D, regardless of her BH's feelings on the matter.


So, because the WW will ignore the BH's feelings on the matter, you do, too? You are going to have to explain the logic behind that to me.


I understand this line of thinking. It is reality that ONE person can end the marriage..even against the wishes of the other spouse. I don't think it is a matter of ignoring a persons pain. I think it is accepting the reality of the situation facing the injured spouse. While it is important to recognize the pain, it is equally, if not more important, to be able to face reality. Failing to do so keeps people in limbo and produces even more pain. I have personally seen dozens of examples of this...including my own. I am very thankful for those posters that helped ME pull my head out of my butt.
Posted By: herfuturesbright

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/24/11 01:57 AM

This is something DH and I did not have to experience. mainly for two reasons:

I confessed my A (which is not a point of pride - a point of pride would be to not have had one)

My DH chose to stay in the M fully and forgive me

If a WW refuses to take responsibility (which was what I was doing when I confessed), the M cannot survive

If a BH will not stay in the M fully and forgive after an A, the M will not survive.

Some WW's never ever have the conscience fortitude to actually acknowledge and change

Some BH's just are not wired to ever love and forgive a WW after she has cheated

When someone is immovable from either of these points....no plans will work. And sometimes that translates to disdain for plans altogether. And I do not mean that as any kind of bash. It's just a long observed and many times reinforced conclusion.
Posted By: Medc

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/24/11 02:26 AM

Agree 100%
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/24/11 01:19 PM

My Rev,I reread that post that I questioned and I still couldn't see a plan,
and not sure what you meant by 'hard dose of reality' since you didn't expand on that. IDK.

This next reply gives me be a better picture.
Originally Posted By: MyRevelation

Asked and answered with what you quoted from my previous post above. Whether a BH wants a D or not is really irrelevant IRL. The WW can file and finalize the D, regardless of her BH's feelings on the matter.

I'm not seeing how it's irrelevant if a BH does not want a D. If he doesn't at this time, then he doesn't.
I can't seem to wrap my head around how to force someone to file for D. Maybe this isn't your point, that's the gist that I get.
Might this be where you would stop positing to a BH, which for me is okay.
There are posters that I don't post to if I feel that their sitch is beyond what I can offer or I have offered something
and the poster wants to go a different route.

Quote:
However, to expand on the BH's plight, he is not without some weapons. He can take the wimpy Plan B route and simply cut off contact, while the WW takes him to the cleaners in a D, which we see way too often with this type of approach.

Plan B=enforcing a boundary that says 'I will not share my spouse therefore I will not engage as a spouse with you' exactly what you and Medc have emphasized.
Btw, I don't know of any BS who feels differently, none of us want to share our spouse.

You are assuming that the WW will definitely file for D, what if she doesn't and there is no indication that she will?


Quote:
OR, he can man-up and really give WW a dose of reality, by FIGHTING for the best possible property settlement and custody agreement he can get and in the mean time, give the WW a full helping of reality by showing her exactly what life will look like post-D, rather than the fantasy she has cooked up in her head. In the process, she may just accidentally pull her head out, or she may not.

Basically, the purpose is to avoid LIMBO at all costs, by fighting for your own rights, while maintaining your integrity and self-respect.

So how I take this, your plan for a BH upon discovery of an A, and you may need to clarify my interpretation ..........

the BH needs to file for D immediately, after confrontation if the WW does not commit to the conditions of R ???

I'm trying to understand the best I can cuz I can see pitfalls in this, yet I can see in circumstances of multiple A's
where I might agree. The biggest problem I see is when a BH does not want D and wants to attempt R.



Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/24/11 01:36 PM

Originally Posted By: heremainsfaithful
If a WW refuses to take responsibility (which was what I was doing when I confessed), the M cannot survive

If a BH will not stay in the M fully and forgive after an A, the M will not survive.

Some WW's never ever have the conscience fortitude to actually acknowledge and change

Some BH's just are not wired to ever love and forgive a WW after she has cheated

When someone is immovable from either of these points....no plans will work. And sometimes that translates to disdain for plans altogether. And I do not mean that as any kind of bash. It's just a long observed and many times reinforced conclusion.

Like Medc, I agree too.
The thing is, no one knows for sure how it will play out unless some time is given for that.
My personal time frame would be short, that's an individual assessment, IMO.

WS's do come around and BS's do cope and a rebuilding a stronger M is possible.

btw, I'm not contradicting you hrf, simply expanding on my thoughts.
Posted By: Medc

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/24/11 02:45 PM

Quote:
So how I take this, your plan for a BH upon discovery of an A, and you may need to clarify my interpretation ..........

the BH needs to file for D immediately, after confrontation if the WW does not commit to the conditions of R ???


Not speaking for MYR, I believe your interpretation is correct.

I also believe that this is the best route to take with a WW.
Posted By: herfuturesbright

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/24/11 04:20 PM

I do have a friend - a lady who I sang next to in choir when I was in college - who found out DH was wayward, confronted him, he balked, she divorced and went on with life.

He went on to reap the benefits of his own crappy living, became broken with remorse, did a lot of hard work to even get her to talk with him again.

As of right now, they have been remarried for 25 years or so. I am not advocating divorce as a way to save a M (that would be kinda weird). But even if a M legally ends.....stranger things have happened. So I can see the value of working till ya cain't work no more. I can also see the value in MyRev and Medc's take. So much depends on the people involved.

I can see value in plan B, but if I was ever in the sitch to do it, I would never tell my H I was doing it to save my love for him...I'd just let him know I was done messing with his wayward self until he was ready to change. I agree that verbalizing the "preserving love" angle to the BS sounds kind of like "I'm still here pining, but I won't talk to you."
Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/25/11 03:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
I can't seem to wrap my head around how to force someone to file for D. Maybe this isn't your point, that's the gist that I get.
Might this be where you would stop positing to a BH, which for me is okay.
There are posters that I don't post to if I feel that their sitch is beyond what I can offer or I have offered something and the poster wants to go a different route.


V,

Sorry for the delay in responding ... it was due to circumstances beyond my control.

Yes, we agree. I can think of several newbie BH's I've posted to mainly questioning WHY they would consider R with a WW who has acted particularly poorly over a long period, but if they post back making it clear that they wish to R for whatever reason or non-reason, I simply back away and let others lead them into LIMBO.

Now admittedly, I have a tendency to post again if I see someone claiming one thing, but then actually doing another, which has gotten me crossways of a few, but dishonesty ... even with onesself ... is a personal trigger issue with me. However, I'm reconsidering that approach in favor of simple detachment towards those personality types.

As for the rest of your post, it appears that others have stepped in and accurately clarified my positions in my absence. As with most things, it appears we are closer in thoughts than possibly originally thought ... I don't see it as anything more than normal differences in perception based on our own beliefs and life experiences.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/25/11 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Vittoria
My Re

the BH needs to file for D immediately, after confrontation if the WW does not commit to the conditions of R ???




This rather assumes that a WW or WH for that matter are going to file the minute they leave the house. While I have seen the odd WS do it, most of them fart around for months before doing so.

If a BS is following the plans the way they are laid out here, they will have already gotten their legal ducks in a row DURING PLAN A, so the second it seems things are not going according to plan, whether they are in A or B, they are ready to go.

The plans are not rocket science. Plan A for a short while - shoot I have seen pretty good plan A's last only 2 weeks, then plan B. Don't be sitting around wringing your hands.

Proactive, not reactive.
Posted By: MyRevelation

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/26/11 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: lildoggie
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
My Re

the BH needs to file for D immediately, after confrontation if the WW does not commit to the conditions of R ???




This rather assumes that a WW or WH for that matter are going to file the minute they leave the house. I have seen the odd WS do it, most of them fart around for months before doing so.

If a BS is following the plans the way they are laid out here, they will have already gotten their legal ducks in a row DURING PLAN A, so the second it seems things are not going according to plan, whether they are in A or B, they are ready to go.

The plans are not rocket science. Plan A for a short while - shoot I have seen pretty good plan A's last only 2 weeks, then plan B. Don't be sitting around wringing your hands.

Proactive, not reactive.


ld,

I think we've miscommunicated. Regardless of whether the WW files or not ... if they won't agree to NC and 100% recommitment to the M immediately upon discovery, then I would advise the BH to file on his own. To my mind, LIMBO is worse than D ... I simply can't advocate anyone KNOWINGLY sharing their spouse. Sure, people do it all the time, and there are dozens doing it right now on these forums, and that is their call to make ... I just happen to believe its the absoulute worst thing they can do, but what any of us think, won't stop any of them from doing what they are going to do.

Now if the WW wants to R prior to the D being finalized, then I suppose the BH has a decision to make, assuming his conditions are met. So, I suppose, I'm advocating Plan D, INSTEAD of Plan B, as it replaces an unnecessary step with a more definitive and proactive stance.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 06/13/11 02:45 AM

Taken from another thread

Originally Posted By: Lildoggie
I am not sure why limbo encouraging posts from OTHER FORUMS are being posted on MA as proof that MA supports limbo.

Anyway. plan B is not a case of:
Quote:
What does plan B do other than allow the WS to have full reign on their affair without worrying about the one at home filing for divorce?

In plan B the WS has NO idea what the BS is, or is not, doing. And for that matter, nor does the BS have any idea of what the WS is doing. Both cease to exist to each other. The WS certainly is not living it up because there is no chance the BS will not file. The WS should'nt have any idea what the BS's thoughts on Plan D are at all, either way.

Plan B does not mean the BS never files for Divorce. Plan B is a chance, a breather, some time out from affair and infidel based madness, to get their heads around what is going on. A time to make informed choices about their future without WS distractions. A time to work out the best divorce for them should it come to that. Plan B is putting the brakes on and recharging.

Plan B is a time to accept
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
You will never. ever. have. your. old. marriage. back.

Dead as a doornail.

Gone.

And truthfully, do you want it back? It was that crappy marriage that got you here to begin with.

So the decision is: do you want a BETTER marriage with the same person.

or

do you want to divorce this person and start your life anew as a single person.


Any significant life changing plans made closely after D-day have the very real problem of being halfcocked and poorly planned. A poor plan leads to waffling in and out of Plan A and Plan B, which leads to cake eating and long term limbo. A well thought out plan leads to determinations and inner peace that you have done your best for you.

I threw my WS out 3 days after d-day. I made plans for divorce. Within a week I knew it wasnt what I really wanted. I made a plan I could live with, and worked it. It wasnt for 6 months or more as suggest above. It was short, sweet and complete and I knew through and through I had done my best.

I have seen halfassed plans and their outcome. We need to give the newly betrayed TIME. Otherwise we are no more than a salesman who says "sign now or you'll miss out on this deal"

Buyers remorse isn't just in store.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 06/27/11 02:11 AM

A wee reminder:

If you can


* See your WS
* Hear your WS
* Know anything your WS has done in the last 24 hours
* Wondering if your WS is missing you/thinking about you

You are not in plan B/no contact/consequences stage/dark.

Seeing a lot of comments lately about how someone is in PB/NC etc, followed shortly after by a F2F/phone call/TM/IM interaction.

Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 06/27/11 03:09 AM

Hi lildoggie, and also

please..think about this

Why in the hell do you want to contact a person who is screwing around on you anyway? And do you really want that back in your life near you.

They aren't missing you, you are not in their head at all. It's not like they just did the deed and rolled over for a smoke and thought, gee I sure miss the spouse. That is not in their head.

Thought for day, repel.

tink
Posted By: TimeHeals

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/15/11 02:43 PM

Quote:
BUT ... on a positive note if your name is Harley ... it keeps people in limbo long enough to sell them additional books and counselling sessions.


Nobody here is selling books, but we do openly advocate a policy of No Contact when it is neccessary for healing and self-protection.

This isn't some lone MB unique philosphy. It's advice often given by trained counselors, it's advocated in severe circumstances by researchers like Penny Tuppy and a host of others.

Furthermore, involving and intermediary may be the smartest thing you can do to protect yourself in some circumstances and especially if there are legal risks because sometimes people are falsely accused of abuse and other offenses.

It's easy to speculate about what somebody who is being highly rational might do when operating from the vantage point of nearly complete detatchment that conveys "strength", but most often when a marriage is in an extreme crisis, the people involved are very much enmeshed emotionally, and it's an unrealistic expectation that they will immediately and instictively detatch like Mr. Spock on Star Trek.

Heck, if they could do that, the marriage might not be in crisis... or even exist for that matter smile
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 12:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark1952

Harley suggests a two year Plan B for two different and important reasons. First, the majority of affairs ends before that time and in many cases the wayward spouse seeks to return to the marriage or at least makes some attempt to negotiate return though fear of reprisal often prevents any real remorse early on.

The second reason Harley suggests two years is that two years is about the time it takes to become emotionally stable after a traumatic event and that assumes you actually WORK at becoming emotionally stable.

As long as the missing him is the defining factor of your reality, you can't move on and unless the affair ends quickly and he becomes a model FWS, full of remorse, regret and restitution you won't even know what to do if he tries to reconcile.


I do not know how to post multiple quotes so some of the middle is missing.

Two years? From Dday or the plan? On one site it suggests being on medication as plan b is so stressful. What if a betrayed does not want to be on medication because their partner cheated on them?

tink
Posted By: Mark1952

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 01:44 PM

Tink,

You keep trying to find a way to make him change...

Stop that!

What you have to understand is that you will be OK no matter what he doles or does not do.

If you know what he is doing, you are not in what Harley calls Plan B. If you are planning how to get him to come home and make up for what he is doing, you can't be in Plan B. If you deal with him directly, via phone, email, SMS or in person, you aren't close to Plan B.

Plan B is for you to work on YOU.

You are focusing in the first part and skipping the second part. Plan B isn't FOR him. It is for YOU. It isn't to make him come home. It's so that you can live a life that benefits you whether he comes home or not. It is not "moving on without him" but "moving on as if he is already gone."

If he should show up at your door, broken, crying, humble, r3emorseful, full of grief over what he has done and beg you to forgive him, what would you do to try to put your marriage back together? Could you comfort him and make him believe that you would be able to forgive him? Could you refrain from beating him about the head and shoulders with a cast iron skillet? Could you crawl into bed with him at the end of the day knowing that not long before he was in bed with OW?

Those things all have to be processed in order to recover a marriage broken by infidelity, Tink. You have to process them whether he ever comes home or not.

You keep looking for that magic bullet or magic potion or the magic words to say that will turn this all around. Magic is an illusion. There isn't magic. There is no "event" that will undo the damage of this...not for you, not for him, not for your children and not for anyone affected by it. At best, there will be a process by which your life will find stability and some sense of normalcy again. But that can't happen when you are living HIS life instead of yours.

The point of the two year statement is that waiting longer than two years is a general waste of time. It isn't intended to give you a goal so that you know when the nightmare will be over. The nightmare will only end when you wake up.

Yes, I know what he did and what he is doing is cruel. I know it hurts. I understand your life has been ripped apart and that everything you thought you had has vanished as if beamed away by aliens. It isn't fair and isn't right and isn't good and isn't going to be any of those things. But YOU can be all of them, Tink, and you can be those things without him but only if you stop following him into the sewer of the life he is choosing and standing in the light of day, strong, healthy and caring for your children and family in spite of what he might be doing.

Find a group of people who have experienced this, not just an online forum but a group of real and caring people in your area and hang out with them. Processing this stuff has to take place and it will be sharing your pain with others that will help you leave that pain behind. I suggest a real life group because real live people can give you real life hugs, hold your hand when you feel alone and show you that they too have walked in your shoes in ways that just can't appear on your computer screen.

Please, Tink, find or create a support network around you that can help you over the rough spots and comfort you in the painful times and build you up in the emotional times. You did not deserve what he did and what he continues doing to you and the kids. At this point he can only keep hurting you as long as you hang around for him to hurt you. It is time for you to take care of yourself and your kids and build a life that does not include him at its center. If he turns up it might be able to include him, but it can't have him at its foundation right now.

Mark
Posted By: TimeHeals

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 02:35 PM

The problem I have with putting a time-frame on "grief" (which is really what we are talking about when we talk about recovery times after a marriage ends or winds up on the rocks) is that people aren't all the same.

The vast majority of people (about 70%) will have coped and recovered within 6 months and most of the rest will have coped within the next 12 months. A tiny group (5-7%) experience chronic grief lasting more than 2-4 years.

*Using Bonano's results from grief studies.


So that's the reality from according to the empirical data: the vast majority of people are resilient and don't spend their time looking backward and re-living the trauma over and over and over.

Most of them will recover within 6-7 months.

I would like to see a similiar study that also tracks time perspectives of people dealing with trauma because I suspect that many people who recover more slowly or not at all are highly past-negative prior to the trauma, and it's easy to see how that might affect recovery times.

I suspect that goal setting ( future-positive) and taking time to "count your blessings" (present-posive) coupled with only minimally reconstructing the past in terms of what you have learned from it or how it made you stronger (past-positive) as opposed to how you were hurt or vitctimized (past-negative) might be key to resilience.



Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 02:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark1952
If he should show up at your door, broken, crying, humble, r3emorseful, full of grief over what he has done and beg you to forgive him, what would you do to try to put your marriage back together? Could you comfort him and make him believe that you would be able to forgive him?
I'm pretty sure - not to speak for you, tink, but based on your history here - that if he showed up, she would step aside, let him in, and never speak of it again. That's how badly she wants him to come home. SHE doesn't matter, as long as he comes home. Because, IMO, he IS her; she doesn't consider herself valid without him. And that's what scares me.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 04:51 PM

In a marriage I believe the couple bonds, which they should. Apart from the yes you should be your own self etc that everyone knows is healthy, and I was myself as I had to be since he was a raging alcoholic, you are still Mr. and Mrs. or Mrs. and Mr. When people call they invite you, greet you with both your names, you know, envelopes etc, on and on, a lot of it, you are you but you are also the other part of a couple. In a way you each become the other in the coupleness. Anyone who thinks this doesn't happen is going to have a real wake up call when their partner walks out of them. Then you see just how much of you and they are in you, in your life, in your being.

I am no mind reader, I am trying to make it through each day. I am finding I am getting to a place where I am waking and being in joy like I was when I heard I survived my cancer, I am finding a weight lifted and I am finding who I was before I had the chains of being so responsible in my marriage because my spouse was lost in substance abuse. He is not a bad person because of it, he is a lost person.

If life didn't have challenges, what kind of life would it be anyway?
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 05:03 PM

So, if he came home today, would you tell him that he has to write a NC letter or he couldn't come home?
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 05:27 PM

I don't have a crystal ball for seeing what I would do in the future.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: catperson
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
If he should show up at your door, broken, crying, humble, r3emorseful, full of grief over what he has done and beg you to forgive him, what would you do to try to put your marriage back together? Could you comfort him and make him believe that you would be able to forgive him?
I'm pretty sure - not to speak for you, tink, but based on your history here - that if he showed up, she would step aside, let him in, and never speak of it again. That's how badly she wants him to come home. SHE doesn't matter, as long as he comes home. Because, IMO, he IS her; she doesn't consider herself valid without him. And that's what scares me.


I am upset that you answered Marks question like you were me.
I would rather you wouldn't answered for me. You post so fast before I can answer another persons question you post an answer for me and then the thread is off on something else.
Posted By: CajunRose

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I don't have a crystal ball for seeing what I would do in the future.


The problem is that without a plan for how to get what one wants, it is unlikely one will ever get it. We start acting out of emotion instead of logic again.

The key, I think, tink, is what are you doing to get the life you want?
Posted By: CajunRose

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
In a marriage I believe the couple bonds, which they should. Apart from the yes you should be your own self etc that everyone knows is healthy, and I was myself as I had to be since he was a raging alcoholic, you are still Mr. and Mrs. or Mrs. and Mr. When people call they invite you, greet you with both your names, you know, envelopes etc, on and on, a lot of it, you are you but you are also the other part of a couple. In a way you each become the other in the coupleness. Anyone who thinks this doesn't happen is going to have a real wake up call when their partner walks out of them. Then you see just how much of you and they are in you, in your life, in your being.

I think I disagree with this. I see a marriage or LTR as three separate entities - me, him, and us. I am responsbile for my happiness. He is responsible for his. We share our happiness with each other in the "us". Some of my friends may know only "me". Some may know "me" and "us".

My divorce meant the "us" disappeared. But the "me" part didn't. I'm fundamentally the same person know that I was when I was married. It took some time to adjust to the new way of speaking (no more "we" or "us"). Took some time to build new routines that didn't involve another adult. Took some time to adjust to the rejection of that "us". But "me" still retains all the happy memories, all the good times, all the lessons learned, all the key pieces that I need to be happy, because may happiness was not dependent on "him" or "us".

Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I am finding I am getting to a place where I am waking and being in joy like I was when I heard I survived my cancer, I am finding a weight lifted and I am finding who I was before I had the chains of being so responsible in my marriage because my spouse was lost in substance abuse. He is not a bad person because of it, he is a lost person.

If life didn't have challenges, what kind of life would it be anyway?
This is the healthiest I've ever hear you speak, tink, I hope that you are genuinely finding peace.
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 07:01 PM

tink, I said 'not to speak for tink' - I'm sorry you didn't like what I said. But I do worry for you because you come across as someone who wants her husband back so much that she is willing to do anything to get it, including having no boundaries for yourself. I think a lot of people sense it (again, not to speak for them, but what I see).

If that's the life you want, it's none of our business. We just want to help you protect yourself, but the ultimate decision is yours. I wish you the best, but I hope you will move forward as though he isn't coming back, so that you don't get harmed waiting. And if he does, you get a pleasant surprise.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 07:36 PM

Originally Posted By: catperson
tink, I said 'not to speak for tink' - I'm sorry you didn't like what I said. But I do worry for you because you come across as someone who wants her husband back so much that she is willing to do anything to get it, including having no boundaries for yourself. I think a lot of people sense it (again, not to speak for them, but what I see).

If that's the life you want, it's none of our business. We just want to help you protect yourself, but the ultimate decision is yours. I wish you the best, but I hope you will move forward as though he isn't coming back, so that you don't get harmed waiting. And if he does, you get a pleasant surprise.



But now you are not only speaking for me but speaking for everyone on the site. I would rather other people speak to me for themselves.
Posted By: black_raven

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 07:36 PM

Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
The problem I have with putting a time-frame on "grief" (which is really what we are talking about when we talk about recovery times after a marriage ends or winds up on the rocks) is that people aren't all the same.

The vast majority of people (about 70%) will have coped and recovered within 6 months and most of the rest will have coped within the next 12 months. A tiny group (5-7%) experience chronic grief lasting more than 2-4 years.

*Using Bonano's results from grief studies.


Isn't this putting a time table on people's grief? Not sure I agree with the research either.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: CajunRose
Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I don't have a crystal ball for seeing what I would do in the future.


The problem is that without a plan for how to get what one wants, it is unlikely one will ever get it. We start acting out of emotion instead of logic again.

The key, I think, tink, is what are you doing to get the life you want?


I am applying for jobs, journaling, going to alanon, seeing WS how he is NOW not like he was THEN before this all came out.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 07:47 PM

not the copy paste queen here
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: CajunRose
Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
In a marriage I believe the couple bonds, which they should. Apart from the yes you should be your own self etc that everyone knows is healthy, and I was myself as I had to be since he was a raging alcoholic, you are still Mr. and Mrs. or Mrs. and Mr. When people call they invite you, greet you with both your names, you know, envelopes etc, on and on, a lot of it, you are you but you are also the other part of a couple. In a way you each become the other in the coupleness. Anyone who thinks this doesn't happen is going to have a real wake up call when their partner walks out of them. Then you see just how much of you and they are in you, in your life, in your being.

I think I disagree with this. I see a marriage or LTR as three separate entities - me, him, and us. I am responsbile for my happiness. He is responsible for his. We share our happiness with each other in the "us". Some of my friends may know only "me". Some may know "me" and "us".

My divorce meant the "us" disappeared. But the "me" part didn't. I'm fundamentally the same person know that I was when I was married. It took some time to adjust to the new way of speaking (no more "we" or "us"). Took some time to build new routines that didn't involve another adult. Took some time to adjust to the rejection of that "us". But "me" still retains all the happy memories, all the good times, all the lessons learned, all the key pieces that I need to be happy, because may happiness was not dependent on "him" or "us".

Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I am finding I am getting to a place where I am waking and being in joy like I was when I heard I survived my cancer, I am finding a weight lifted and I am finding who I was before I had the chains of being so responsible in my marriage because my spouse was lost in substance abuse. He is not a bad person because of it, he is a lost person.

If life didn't have challenges, what kind of life would it be anyway?
This is the healthiest I've ever hear you speak, tink, I hope that you are genuinely finding peace.


I am not talking about the happy factor, I am talking about how in a marriage as you become a "they" the longer you are married. I did a lot of things almost all things in our marriage without him, mostly because he choose his happy area to be being drunk and napping instead of actually being in his own family that he started with me his wife. This did not stop family and friends as referring to us and x and x like salt and pepper not sure I am getting my point across.

You can be plodding along thinking I am me in this marriage I am so secure etc etc, I am in a strong marriage, and when the news that they are in an affair, you will then see just how enmeshed in your life and you in theirs you both are. You are enmeshed it is impossible not to be.

When I first got married the separate me you and us was clearer I found the longer I was married, there was the me and you but the us got a lot stronger.

It is a lot of stuff to deal with, a long way to go back to who I was which is not helpful now, since that was a much younger me and I have been through a lot getting to the me of now.

It is good not to loose yourself ever to anything.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: black_raven
Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
The problem I have with putting a time-frame on "grief" (which is really what we are talking about when we talk about recovery times after a marriage ends or winds up on the rocks) is that people aren't all the same.

The vast majority of people (about 70%) will have coped and recovered within 6 months and most of the rest will have coped within the next 12 months. A tiny group (5-7%) experience chronic grief lasting more than 2-4 years.

*Using Bonano's results from grief studies.


Isn't this putting a time table on people's grief? Not sure I agree with the research either.


My therapist told me that for the length of my marriage my actions are within the normal range. Unfortunately she also said I can expect to possibly be like this another 5 years because of the length of my marriage.

Exasperation as at point of seeing, ok, feel love for who he was not who he is now, possible saying goodbye even with those feelings or the situation could go on longer than me.

As in I thought in a revenge type thinking mode, if this would happen to him then he would know. He won't live long enough to be with OW as long as us to experience it, also the situation would be different as no children would be in the equation.

Going through a day just with the day and what it has to offer, is very appealing now, more appealing than figuring out things that are impossible to figure out. An amnesia pill would be nice.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 08:06 PM

I have found out a very important thing, the weed block you put down before the bark, the grass grows through it.
Posted By: CajunRose

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/16/11 08:11 PM

I'm so glad you're going to Al-anon and seeing an IC , tink smile

I wouldn't put so much stock in a therapist's prediction of it taking X years to heal because your M lasted Y years. That depends so much on the situation and the people involved.

Originally Posted By: tink
Going through a day just with the day and what it has to offer, is very appealing now, more appealing that figuring out things that are impossible to figure out

I was really helped by timeheals' suggestion to write down the things one is grateful for evry day. It recentered me to focus on my blessings.
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/17/11 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By: tinkerbell
I have found out a very important thing, the weed block you put down before the bark, the grass grows through it.
It's not supposed to.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/17/11 07:38 AM

I know it is this horrible super grass, so now I am having to weed the bark.

Posted By: TimeHeals

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/17/11 01:35 PM

Quote:
Isn't this putting a time table on people's grief?


No, not really. It acknowledges people are different, and that most of us are more resilient than previously thought.

Bonano's research also completely shoots down the "phases of grief" hypothesis which evolved as a treatment model for end-of-life patients, and then was generalized to the wider population. Grief counseling can impair recovery in *most* people. That is another finding. Pouring over events and re-living the pain can impair recovery.

Now these tracking studies deal with more extreme situations than marriages breaking up (9/11 survivors, survivors of genocide in Kosovo and Rwanda, families of deceased soldiers who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq, surviving soldiers,and so on), but they are ground-breaking because they began tracking the subjects before the horrific things that happened to them even happened.

It doesn't matter whether or not you agree. These studies are the first attempts at empirically studying grief. Before these studies, it was all guesswork basically.

The *leap* is correlating these studies with the grief that accompanies a marriage breaking up, discovery of infedility, and so on. That leap was mine, but I feel pretty safe making it.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/17/11 09:36 PM

But if there is a timetable and you are in the outer realms then there is another failure to put on your list.
Posted By: black_raven

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/18/11 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
It acknowledges people are different


That's about all I got out of that model.

Don't want to t/j with the rest of my thoughts on this. Back to Plan B.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/27/11 06:17 AM

I was told there is a time limit to starting plan b, kind of sucks if you are half out of your head you are going to miss it

Would be nice if the affair didn't happen, bitterly that is typed
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/27/11 06:59 AM

There is no time limit to Plan B. You go into it when you cant take the affair madness any more, and you stay there until either you recover your marriage OR become completely ambivalent about contact with the WS OR one of you dies.

As Mark said, Plan B is for the BS. It is a time to heal, to find yourself, and move to the next stage of your life, whether or not the WS is a part of that.
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/27/11 03:24 PM

The time limit is simply when you get tired of being married to a cheating, lying SOB and decide you deserve better and respect yourself too much to be married to THAT.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/27/11 04:51 PM

I need coffee, I was reading last night and woke up with a pile of books on me and the sound of someone mowing their lawn bight and early

coffee
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/27/11 04:52 PM

lildoggie do you realize your little picture is of the classic

smokin gun???

lol
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 09/27/11 04:56 PM

need coffee


Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/16/11 09:16 PM

Thought there was some interesting discussion going on here ....

More discussion on the Plan B/NC letter sent by BS to WS

Starts about half way down page 5 through to end of page 7.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/17/11 12:41 AM

This is 4, is it another thread?
Posted By: Vittoria

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/17/11 01:27 AM

Not this thread, the page numbers refer to the linked thread above.
hmm, should I scrap the page #'s cuz it's confusing, thought it would be more helpful if folks knew there were only 2-3 pages to read.

Nevermind, can't scrap it, the edit time has run out.

Does it make better sense now?
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/17/11 03:33 AM

yes it is a very good thread
Posted By: kimmie lee

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/21/11 03:17 AM

Originally Posted By: lildoggie
There is no time limit to Plan B. You go into it when you cant take the affair madness any more, and you stay there until either you recover your marriage OR become completely ambivalent about contact with the WS OR one of you dies.

As Mark said, Plan B is for the BS. It is a time to heal, to find yourself, and move to the next stage of your life, whether or not the WS is a part of that.


Hahahaa!!! I read that as it is for the BULL shinola!!.

And that is also correct. It removes it from your life. laugh
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/21/11 04:47 AM

I have a headache


Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/21/11 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: kimmie lee
Originally Posted By: lildoggie
There is no time limit to Plan B. You go into it when you cant take the affair madness any more, and you stay there until either you recover your marriage OR become completely ambivalent about contact with the WS OR one of you dies.

As Mark said, Plan B is for the BS. It is a time to heal, to find yourself, and move to the next stage of your life, whether or not the WS is a part of that.


Hahahaa!!! I read that as it is for the BULL shinola!!.

And that is also correct. It removes it from your life. laugh


Yeah, I did too way back when. Honestly, I cannot recommend plan B enough. It was hard, I didnt like it at the time, but it send a loud and clear message to my then WS to shape up or ship out. I dont know how my life would be now had he not decided to try recovery, but I can guess I would have been freaking awesome no matter what.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 12/17/11 06:50 AM

This is fitting
Posted By: oceanbreez

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/30/12 05:32 AM

im a bit confused about plan B letter.

in other words am i telling my H go ahead and enjoy your A and once she breaks up with you or u get tired of her you can contact me again to discuss reconciliation?
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/30/12 07:40 AM

In essence.

Plan B is a part of a 2 part concept. They really need to go hand in hand to have much effect. In plan A you show your WS that you are still the person they initially fell in love with. Plan B takes that away from them.

HOWEVER...

it is not the only, or even the main reason for plan B.

The MAIN reason is to take the BS away from the WS in order to heal, and focus on only themself, and children if there are any. WS's suck the life out of the BS and the family.

So, think less that it's
Quote:
go ahead and enjoy your A and once she breaks up with you or u get tired of her you can contact me again to discuss reconciliation?
and more like

"go wallow in your nasty little fantasy world, risking losing any and all integrity, good name, and respect. When you wake up, read the letter and note the boundaries and pointers I have addressed as being essential to me. IF you do so, we may have a future. If not, bless your cotton sock, see ya in court."

But without being snippy and nasty smile

After all, there's no need to lower oneself. Be the better person.
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/30/12 01:43 PM

There's a thread here somewhere in the 'learning' sections that describes it better. Essentially, Plan B is what the betrayed spouse does when she finally is at her rope's end. When she says to herself, 'I can no longer wait for him. I'm moving on. IF he gives up his cheating and does all I need and IF I haven't already stopped loving and caring for him...MAYBE I would consider taking him back. But at this time, I never want to see him again.'

If you're not ready to never see him again, you're not ready for Plan B.

And keep reminding yourself, Plan B IS NOT A PLOY TO GET HIM TO WANT YOU BACK.

It is for YOU, to save YOUR dignity and self respect.
Posted By: for to fade

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/30/12 11:06 PM

More like a plan so you don't go insane from the destruction of your life for years
Posted By: oceanbreez

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 03:35 AM

I understand its suppose to be for my own sake but the few letter examples i read here clearly states once you end your affair we can talk.

I want to make a letter but at the same time i dont want him to think he has the security of having me back if his affair ends. i want his conscious to eat him slowly for as long as the affair lasts.. how do i bring that up in the letter.
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 04:15 AM

But you can't write a Plan B letter UNLESS you are WILLING to walk away and never see him again.

Otherwise, you will have to eat crow when you admit that you really AREN'T done.

IT IS NOT A TRICK TO GET HIM BACK. IT IS YOU BEING DONE WITH HIM.
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 04:15 AM

There's a sample Plan B in the 'instruction' areas somewhere.
Posted By: oceanbreez

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 04:22 AM

ok i get it now.. kinda!!!!!!!

Cat explain to me plz.. u say plan B is if you are totally done with him and never want to see him again. but the letter say once hes done with his A then we can reconcile? maybe im just not getting it plan B
Posted By: catperson

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 05:58 AM

Plan B is for when you discover that you are suffering immensely from his wayward acts. It's when you realize that you cannot control him, and that continuing to be around him HURTS you.

Once your spouse cheats, you have ONE CHOICE, that's worth a damn - walk away.

If your spouse doesn't want you, you have ONE option - MOVE ON.

It takes a long time, but most betrayed spouses eventually hit the same place - realization that you cannot control your spouse.

You can want, wish, beg, plead, pray for...all you want. But you ccan't make your spouse want you. That is HIS choice.

Until you hit that realization, you're controlled. Once you hit tthat realization, you have the power.
Posted By: oceanbreez

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 06:34 AM

Ok let me tell you cat exactly how im feeling as we speak..

I do not contact him by phone, text, email.. nothing! no contact, nada! I sorta went dark on him i dont know if i did it to punish him or to help me.. i think its favoring me more than him. BUT i would like to reconcile.. should i plan B or should i stay dark. i have mixed feelings.. my D papers are still sitting on my lawyer's desk waiting for me to sign and i still havent gone to sign.. i dnt think im ready smirk

Posted By: Ace

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 07:26 AM

Hi ocean,

The way I understand Plan B is that it's the same as 'going dark' for your sake, to protect you from the daily drama.

To be the most effective, you would Plan A (show him the best YOU there is) and then before going dark, establishing a go-between person (intermediary) who will relay messages regarding the kids or health, but nothing else. The Plan B letter spells out the only conditions upon which you'll accept your H back. The road should be very narrow with explicit conditions defined.

Until you have become confident that you understand how it works (and only when you have an intermediary who knows what her role is), don't start Plan B.

If you're not ready to sign your D papers, don't sign them. But don't have any illusions that if/when you implement Plan B, you will convince your WH to end the A and come home. He may do neither, he may do one or he may do both. If so, it should be on YOUR terms as described in your Plan B letter.

Hope that helps.
Ace
Posted By: Jayne241

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 01/31/12 04:25 PM

^^^--- I agree.
Posted By: oceanbreez

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 02/01/12 12:28 AM

Thank You.. makes sense now =)) im just a bit slow at understanding these things when i got married i was not given a guide book to look to help me overcome these times =((

you are all amazing
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 03/27/12 10:39 AM

BUMP

Page 1 and 2 have the most info, but good stuff on the others as well
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 07/05/12 01:26 AM

An abridged plan B letter

In order to preserve any feelings I have left for you, I can no longer have any contact with you until such time as your affair ends. In case of emergency concerning the health, safety or well being of the kids, or a life threatening emergency affecting yourself, I can be reached by contacting (my intermediary) at ____________.

Should you become willing to end your affair and attempt to restore our marriage, based on a plan that we must both be agreeable with, I will be open to discussion of that topic. Until that time, please do not call, stop by, email, write or send messages to me through the children or any other individual.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 07/05/12 03:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Some seemed interested to hear what I have to say on the subject of Plan B or having no contact with an actively cheating spouse.

So here we go...

The single biggest reason Plan B doesn't "work" is the same reason Plan A doesn't "work". That is, almost nobody actually DOES either plan. Instead what they do is try to slide into some portions of the plan, leaving other options open, in large part because they don't actually understand the plan itself or the reasons for it. They also have no idea what "working" actually is since they don't know what it is supposed to do.

Plan B, according to Harley, serves multiple purposes. One of those can be that wake-up call the WS/WAS needs to understand that they too stand to lose something. What is often missed is that Plan B does not assure that the WS/WAS will actually wake up. It can however make it possible by accomplishing a few things required for that to happen sooner rather than later.

  • It removes the emotional support of the BS from the life of the WS/WAS
  • It causes the affair to stand on its own as a total relationship
  • It gets the affair relationship out in the open where it is no longer that secret and hidden mouse but the real elephant it is (lets others see what is going on)
  • It gives a taste of what divorced will look like with exchange of kids, missing aspects from the kids lives, loss of family time and connections with extended family that most have learned to rely on
  • If accompanied by a real separation agreement enforced by the courts or by the withholding of financial support for continuing the affair, it can be a real eye opener for someone who thinks their life will go on as is but with a new partner, one they aren't actually always that committed to making into a life long partner to begin with


Another purpose, and perhaps the very thing most needed by the BS/LBS is that it separates them from the drama, day to day pain and stress of dealing with an ongoing affair by one's spouse. Because one MUST sacrifice his/her own emotional well being in order to fight an affair in an effort to save a marriage, the longer it continues the more stress destroys the possibility of recovery should the affair end and the WS seek reconciliation. Because you can only give so much without getting anything in return (sort of like trying to blow up a vacuum cleaner) continuing beyond a certain point just about assures that sufficient healing to recover can't happen.

So Plan B, stops the insanity, not by stopping the affair but by stopping the dealing with it. It isn't leaving things to chance and just accepting whatever comes along but really choosing to save oneself while not nailing the door to the marriage shut but only closing it for a time. It isn't being "nice" until the affair is over. It is being "GONE" until the affair is over, as in gone and unavailable to the WS/WAS. It isn't sitting by suffering while the affair rages, but is really getting your own life and learning to live as a whole person on your own so that whether the marriage is saved or not, the BS/LBS can lead a relatively normal, healthy life.

Since recovery of the marriage requires a significant amount of emotional energy, Plan B also strives to keep a bit left in reserve for that endeavor should it become possible. If you deal with an active wayward long enough, you don't love them even a little tiny bit. You HATE them. You want only to get away from them, punish them for what they did and are still doing and build a resentment list of why you should feel entitled to punish them forever that would make any person justifying an affair proud. The more you put up with, the more you have to forgive. Plan B puts the anguish accumulation on hold and gives you time to become a functioning human being again.

Statistically, most affairs (3 sigma points) will end within about two years from the time they are confronted no matter what is done to fight them. Plan B, for those willing to wait because they see the marriage as worth the sacrifice, waiting a couple of years in Plan B covers enough of the spectrum as far as duration is concerned to know what will happen when the affair ends. For those still going strong after that time, they are already statistical outliers and might last forever or might implode in another week with no real way to know which it will be. But during the two years of waiting, a person can generally get their own poop grouped, learn to function as an individual again and know that the choice to divorce is one being made based on facts and data rather than on feeling hurt in the moment because of being rejected.

The reason few of these things happen in Plan B is that people fail to act to based on what they see as their preferred outcomes and instead act based on how they feel, which is really the way most affairs get started. It is the problem that has to be overcome if any chance of recovery is going to be possible since the longer an affair goes on, the less likely recovery can be pulled off when it ends, which again, is most likely to happen in nearly all affairs.

So if the stated goals of Plan B/NC are:
  • Emotional Healing for at least themselves
  • Give the WS/WAS a taste of what divorce will look like
  • Give time for the affair to end before deciding the outcome for the marriage
  • Protect the assets of the family
  • Save enough emotional investment for possible recovery should it become possible
  • Protect the children of the marriage from the total loss of normalcy and support they so need to feel safe
  • Other reasonable expectations that come from living separated from one's spouse

Limited contact can be of no real value.

To actually pull off Plan B requires some choices that are very hard to make. Not the least of these is the protection of family assets to avoid ruin that can result even if the affair ends quickly and recovery begins. For most, this will require (at least in most states in the USA) a formal and legal separation agreement. This will determine custodial rights regarding the children, financial support required to maintain the well being of the children and legal stipulation as to what is marital and what is personal assets.

It also requires working out the details of the visitation schedule for the noncustodial parent, which is often the WS/WAS who must now live on his/her own or move in with the affair partner and strive to make the "relationship" work as a real one rather than fantasy as it began.

Thus, to do Plan B probably requires hiring a lawyer, maybe going to court at least a few times and examining what you will need from a divorce, even if the divorce never happens. It also requires some serious examination of the marriage to see if it is even possible to put it back together.

One of the keys to making all of these things "work" is that they can really only take place if there is no contact at all. Every time the spouse's interact, by phone, in person, by email, by written letter, the goals are being pushed aside since the BS/LBS does not feel safe, the WS/WAS does not have to stop relying on support from the BS/LBS, the lives are being intermixed, the children are being given confusing signals, the emotional state of both are being kept at the forefront, etc...

In Harley's Plan B, an intermediary is recommended to filter any and all communication from the WS/WAS. Chatting (emotional support) is eliminated. The drama of the affair itself is eliminated. The having to deal with a cheating spouse complete with the justifications, often venomous things they say and the stress of constantly fighting over things that are really pretty trivial in the big picture are done away with as much as within the control of the BS/LBS. This can be a trusted friend, a lawyer, even a family member of the WS/WAS. The only real requirement is that this person understand what is pertinent and what is smoke as far as the drama that always follows any real effort to cut off communication directly with a WS/WAS. All sorts of "emergencies" will crop up almost daily. Having daily crisis management is one of the things the BS/LBS is trying to avoid and so it serves no purpose toward the stated goals.

In order for Plan B/NC to actually be what is happening, it must be an actual event that sets it in motion. In Harley's plan, it is a letter stating not much beyond the following:

In order to preserve any feelings I have left for you, I can no longer have any contact with you until such time as your affair ends. In case of emergency concerning the health, safety or well being of the kids, or a life threatening emergency affecting yourself, I can be reached by contacting (my intermediary) at ____________.

Should you become willing to end your affair and attempt to restore our marriage, based on a plan that we must both be agreeable with, I will be open to discussion of that topic. Until that time, please do not call, stop by, email, write or send messages to me through the children or any other individual.


Yes, individual adjustments are required and nothing so impersonal is actually what should be delivered. But this is the only real information to be included and nothing any longer really matters since most of the first paragraph will be read and about half of the second. Anything longer or with more explanation will be ignored or worse, turned into reason for a tirade as the WS/WAS rails against the BS/LBS.

Watching those around here and on other forums who delve into what they believe is NC only to hear time and again of interaction, in person, via phone and through hacking emails, talking to friends about what is going on in the life of the cheater and affair partner, is one of the more frustrating things for me to watch. Knowing that each and every contact makes recovery less likely, more difficult and is building more pain and suffering for the BS/LBS sometimes makes me want to grab the person, shake them till their teeth rattle and slap them senseless.

When an affair begins, most often the affairing person believes it will not really affect their marriage very much. If they are confronted and choose to continue the affair, they believe that they can still have a relationship with their spouse, at least benefit from some sort of relationship, and pursue this new and exciting relationship with the affair partner. Being supportive, emotionally available, financially committed, long suffering, and willing to "work out a settlement" sounds so noble and high and mighty. It is actually enabling the fantasy of the WS to continue. Plan B stops that dead. It also gives that indicator that "I am moving on with my life" that so many think is the biggest benefit.

The biggest benefit for the BS however is really a return to sanity, gradual and as difficult as it might be. It is one of those counter intuitive things always being talked about but seldom being done. It requires Dobson's approach of unlocking the door, opening the cage and accepting the outcome instead of trying to manipulate it. It takes understanding Townsend and Cloud and their way of seeing boundaries as being self defining and not a way to manipulate others around us into acting the way we would choose for them. For it to be part of an overall strategy to save the marriage, it must happen before the BS/LBS is DONE and in revenge mode. It doesn't have to happen before divorce is filed or before a final decision to save the marriage is actually made. It does need to happen before the damage is so great that only years of therapy will overcome the anxiety, stress and pain that comes from an affair for both sides.

For those who fight too long, try too many strategies that counter each other instead of supporting each other, and end up simply being done, simply going to NC is the most beneficial way to learn to move on with your life. But that isn't Plan B at that point as it is now a part of Plan D (divorce). But the other goals of Plan B are still fulfilled by having NC, even if the marriage is being abandoned. These still include, healing for the BS/LBS, building new emotional support structures to replace the one relied upon in the marriage, protecting the children from constant fights (Dr Phil talks about how children would rather be from a broken home than have to live in one) and can also work toward protection of family and personal assets.

The longer contact is sustained with an active wayward, the more damage that is done and the more difficult recovery will be should it even begin. Being able to recover becomes less likely with every discussion of the affair, argument about who is to blame, what is at fault and who will benefit from divorce.

People have this notion that there is such a thing as benign divorce. All they have to do is put their individual needs aside, fight fair, do what is best for the family and put the needs of the family as a whole above their own. They need to learn to work out their differences without having to hurt each other, punish each other for transgressions or using the children to inflict their will upon the other.

Wait... isn't that how marriages are repaired? If they actually did any of those things, they wouldn't be getting a divorce. It is pure fantasy to believe that a "couple" can be divorced and work together for mutual benefit and the benefit of the children. If they are divorced and either or both in a relationship with someone else, they are no longer a couple.


Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/17/12 02:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Not2fun
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


From what I understand about the MB Plan B, I should have ignored her attitude about her affair, and just kept concentrating on the fact that she was back in the game with me, kept meeting her emotional needs, and rebuilding our relationship. I couldn't do it.


Future,

YOu misunderstood about Plan B then.

Plan B is for when all avenue's of Plan A have been applied.
You go into Plan B when the WS refuses to end the affair and refuses to begin marital reconciliation. In Plan B, the BS avoids all contact with the WS until the affair has ended and the WS agrees to a PLAN of marital recovery. Usually, the BS get legal representation and files for a Legal Separation. The BS also get an intermiderary to handle any communication about the kids. In other words, the BS has absolutely NO CONTACT with the Wayward Spouse and the WS is still engaged in an ACTIVE AFFAIR.

Usually the biggest mess up people have with this is they do not have a PLAN in place for marital recovery. The BS is usually so relieved that the affair is over, they do not negotiate a PLAN of recovery and accept the WS without eliminating all the conditions that made the affair possible in the first place.

So far, in most of the cases I have seen on MA, this seems to be the BIGGEST MISTAKE. No real plan for Recovery. Which is WHY you are seeing OM1, OM2, ect. If the affair ends but the WS still does NOT AGREE to a Plan of Recovery, then the BS should stay in Plan B (NO CONTACT with the Wayward Spouse....)

So no Future, you were not in a true MB Plan B.

And to clear up any other misconcepts about Plan A, Plan A is when a BS negotitates with the WS to end the affair. You do so by eliminating Love Busters (angry outburst, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements) and showing a willingness to meet the emotional needs of the WS. Also, exposure is also done while in Plan A. Exposure includes family and friends who can help put pressure on the WS to end the affair, the OP's spouse, and especially the children. When the WS refuses to end the affair and the BS has done Plan A for short while (Dr. H recommends 3-4 weeks for women depending and up to 6 months for men depending....this is not a SET IN STONE timeline, btw), the BS THEN goes into Plan B. Dr. H recommends Plan B for up to 2 yrs because nearly ALL affairs end with-in that time frame.

Not2fun


Here
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 11/17/12 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Not2fun
Originally Posted By: Not2fun


Plan B is for when all avenue's of Plan A have been applied.
You go into Plan B when the WS refuses to end the affair and refuses to begin marital reconciliation.


As for my personal sitch, I went into Plan B even though the affair had ended because Mr. Not had not agreed to a Recovery Plan. He LOVED my meeting his EN'S, avoiding LB's and all the peaches and cream of Dr. H's stuff, HOWEVER, he did not want to necessarily do any of the work himself. He also refused to eliminate the conditions that lead to his affair and didn't want to do any Extra-ordinary precautions, which include giving all access to emails, phone records, Credit cards and such.

It was a very wise move on my part, because without these VERY CRUCIAL STEPS, all that would have happened is that love would not have been restored, resentment would have continued to build, and the risk of the affair resuming or another one taking its place would have been great.

My mentors on the board, Mimi and Mark (yes, the same Mark on here) were very good at making sure I didn't miss this crucial step and imparting on me the very importance of it.....

Not2fun


Here
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 02/18/13 07:46 PM

BUMP for BB
Posted By: Marie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 05/28/13 08:36 PM

Lil,
What if upon discovery (7 months ago) of my WH, I found out that he had been having an affair for a year and 4 months? He left me for the OW? Basically, I am asking what are my chances of recovering our marriage? I have to have minimal contact because we own a business together. We will have minimal contact until we work out the details and I get my name off the business. He talks about moving in with the OW and said he wants a divorce. He acts like a Wayward (what I have been reading here). Keep in mind I was in plan A for 6 months and have been in plan B for 6 weeks now. Of course he was cake eating in plan A. Now I don't let him see me at all and I only talk business with him.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 05/29/13 12:52 AM

I dont really call that plan B as it is defined. Having said that plan B is not, now or ever, a way to get the marriage to recover.

Plan B is simply a way to remove the betrayed spouse from the hurt they feel from being around the wayward spouse even if the WS is not actually being all that bad Example: Flick had moments of being very sweet and charming to me while he was having his affair. It just made the other 80% of the time more painful and confusing.

The only 'chance' you get from planB is that you haven't moved down the scale from love into loathing so when the affair ends, as is statistically possible, you as the betrayed spouse, might condesenced to make some kind of recovery attempt.

Thats it.

Affair ends, you dont completely hate your WS, you might want to try recovery.

Contact means the opposite - and I have seen it happen alot - BS clings onto minimal contact, WS keeps on causing death by 1000 paper cuts, BS grows to despise WS, affair ends, WS comes calling, BS gives the big finger.

Chance is entirely dependant on how YOU feel when the affair ends.
Posted By: Marie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 05/29/13 01:09 PM

Lil,
You are so right about what you said here. I guess I keep hearing different things about No contact. Even though we are in minimal contact, each time I hear from him and and each time he turns on his charm, I hate him more and more. I am basically getting to that point now. When he tries to joke around with me and be overly nice, I look at it as if he is not understanding the hell he has put me through and is still putting me through. The anguish is unbelievable. It's like he and her are off having the time of their lives while I suffer tremendous pain that can only be described by those of us who have experienced it or are still going through it now such as myself.
Posted By: Marie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 05/29/13 02:17 PM

Statistically, most affairs (3 sigma points) will end within about two years from the time they are confronted no matter what is done to fight them.
______________________________________________________________
Lil,
I found the above quote in a post of what you wrote about Plan B. Can you explain it to me? When you say that most affairs end within two years from the time they are confronted, I assume you are talking about the discovery date. Basically, since my husband was already having an affair for over a year when he finally admitted it to me, are you saying his affair "could" end within 2 years from the discovery date (which was this past Nov, 2012). Is that how I should read what you wrote? smile

Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 05/30/13 01:36 AM

Hi Marie,
I am sorry if I came across a bit short yesterday. My explaination was correct, but I could have been more gentle and delicate in delivery smile

The sigma 3 thing was actually from Mark smile

I 'think' the original statistics was done by the late Shirley Glass. In it they discovered that in general, affairs do not have longevity on their side. I'll find the link to the actual study, but from memory 97% of affairs end within 2 years, and of those that carry on, all but .03% end within 6 years. They just are not sustainable. There's a lot of speculation as to why this is so - lack of trust, poor beginnings, relationship but on fantasy, relationships dont tend to last long regardless of how they start, FOO, past baggage, addiction....

As to when to take the start date from, well thats up to a whole bunch of stuff that could mean everything, or nothing.

In general I tell people that sometime around the 2 year mark of the affair starting, it will die. Actual tangible dates are irrelevant - its simply a case of the affair nearly always ends, and the OP nearly always tries to come home, especially wayward husbands. Not always, but nearly always.

LadyGrey's Marital Statistics Thread

More statistics

Not Just Friends Book Review

Hmm, cant find the post Im thinking of, but I did find the following:

about 95% of all affairs either end by one person deciding to end it, or that it dies a natural death. Of the five percent that end in marriage, about 70% of those end in divorce.

While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years.

According to Dr. Frank Pittman, the "mortality rate" of affair-marriages (AM) is as follows:

5 years -- 75%
10 years - 90%
"Lifetime"- 95%

So some contridictory figures, yet none particulary hopeful for the AP's.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 05/30/13 01:39 AM

Typical, just found it smile

Will the affairee's end up together?
Posted By: Marie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 05/31/13 01:26 AM

Lil,
I didn't take offense of your reply at all. I appreciate all the help I can get. smile
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 07/09/21 02:03 AM

Common misconceptions

Plan B is something you fall into because of...
Plan B is a choice!
You make the decision to'do the measures/steps that take you to the end results or not. Just because you're physically separated it doesn't mean you're automatically in Plan B, there are many people who do a plan a while separated

Plan B is a "joint decision"
No way! it is a unilateral decision! Thinking of possible "end results" #2! (It can happened) and discussing going to it with the WS defeats it's impact if not the effect. Allowing the WS to figure out what to do next, will mean there will be efforts against your Plan it's inevitable!

But, it's not a family Plan.

Plan B can go on forever
if you don't reach one of the 2 "end results", you'll need some counseling. How long it lasts, varies and it can vary dramatically, it should be at least a few months but can go on years special situations


Plan B is something the WS is doing to you.
the WS, in most cases will not write a Plan B (love) letter. Will only understand the No Contact part, will not understand the need for Planned out logistics, will not work toward any Proactive growth steps


Mixing Plan A and Plan B is a good approach
they have conflicting desired outcomes and steps/measures, they'll confuse everyone, FS, WS, OP, family, counselors etc.


Purity" of Plan B can be achieved
Not even close!
Contact has to be allowed to allow for the 1st possible "end result". Children/other family may have to be honored, resulting in occasional contact, but if contact CAN be avoided AVOID IT!!!



To say you're in a "modified Plan B" is saying you
1. Aren't ready to accept the 2 possible "end results"
2. Are unwilling to commit to the some/all steps/measures.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 07/09/21 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jimk
To this end... one needs to note a few important aspects of Plan B...

Both Plan A and Plan B are a cohesive step of steps that lead down a very narrow path of marital recovery… They must work together if Plan A does not work by itself.
You start Plan B only after some time in Plan A... a normal amount of time in Plan A could/should be about 6 months... but can be as little a nothing to much more than 6 months.
Plan B can only be as effective as Plan A was in setting up a foundation for the establishing a "safe" environment for the wayward spouse to return!
That environment must also be "non-threatening", yet "changing" where the wayward can clearly see that there are improvements made in the betrayed's ability to meet the waywards emotional needs.
Continuing in Plan A is recommended until the wayward ultimately show signs of complete rejection of accepting there have been improvements by the betrayed… and/or the betrayed's feelings turn to one of overt anger… and resentment!
Plan B should be put off as long as possible and builds off the benefits derived from Plan A!
Damaging a good track record of Plan A can be done in as little as one day of Love Busting and what the betrayed remembers is the most recent actions before Plan B!
Plan B has to have a seamless transition from Plan A, because once the betrayed is in Plan B there is no more laying down a foundation!
Plan B also should have a time limit... 6 months?... 12 months?... 18 months?... ? years?... it varies. Since most affairs, that do come to an end, normally last about 2 years(more or less)... the duration of Plan B does vary!
Plan B should start off with a Plan B letter...
This letter is not a Love Busting letter... but quite the opposite! It is to make clear that love still does exist... but the loving relationship that was to be cultivated in Plan A... will not go on as normal...
Plan B: Avoid (all) contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has ended.
Plan B is not meant to punish the wayward spouse! But to protect the betrayed... to protect the betrayed spouse's Love Bank for the wayward... so it is not drained below any recoverable state.
A consequence of this 'no contact' is that it will then put the burden of satisfying ALL(or most) of the wayward's Emotional Needs on the OP! A very hard thing to do, in most situations...
During the time of Plan B the wayward is to "build" oneself... to work on themselves... to prepare oneself to live without the wayward spouse... and develop tools for good healthy relationships! That includes no Love Busting... since that is an unhealthy action in relationships.
With children in the picture Plan B, in the full sense of "no contact", is sometimes impossible. Everything possible needs to be done so the children will know they are not being abandoned... contact with them must not be stopped or hindered in any way! Just contact with the spouse. Logistics here are difficult... but should be thought through carefully and creatively.
Variations on Plan B are discouraged by the Harley's... those variations tend to weaken the impact intended in Plan B.
Again... if Plan B fails... the (betrayed) spouse would no longer have any feelings of love for the wayward spouse and that would allow a less painful subsequent divorce and would permit the pursuit of a new... much healthier relationship.
For the moment...there are several good examples of Plan B letters.


I understand there is a great fear in all of Plan B...
What happens if Plan B fails?... It can and does happen...
{Distressed}... had just such a post... view it... Is it time to file?!

In my normal welcome wagon message I do state... "There is never any guarantee to save all marriages..."... we must be realistic to recognize this. Try as much as we like... we cannot force our waywards to change their minds... we and they are, after all, given free will...

Yes, Plan B... is a big step... make sure you understand what you are choosing... seek guidance if you're not sure!!!

If you accept Plan B... seek also the support and fellowship of the people on the Forum... you'll need it!

But remember.....forum posts and information are meant to enlighten… not be treated as a replacement for formal counseling.
Posted By: Fergie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 07/09/21 02:37 PM

I love my wife to bits and I'm not wayward or cheating or leaving. We are fine.

But if I found out she put this much thought or analysis into a plan or a strategy concerning our relationship I'd be seriously creeped out. Creeped out enough to seriously consider ending the relationship.

I'm the last person to defend a wayward spouse (and I think Lady Grey made a similar point a few times), this "plan" just seems to dehumanize the other partner, like they are just a calculation in the equation. It's seriously weird.
Posted By: SFB

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 07/29/21 07:13 PM

Ferg,

Do you know about Plan A/B and what they are all about?

SFB
Posted By: star*fish

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/01/21 02:58 PM

Both of these "plans" are really about working on oneself--and if it's done with the right intent and heart--not at all about manipulating the WS. Granted there are ALOT of people who use these plans with the thought that it will fix something or bring the wayward back home. Those are just the wrong reasons and calculated motives are definitely a little creepy With the right motives, they are about preparing for the next phase of a BS's life---with or without the WS. What I appreciate about Plan B for instance--is that if a BS can successfully disengage from the affair and do some self-nurturing, they are infinitely better off if the marriage cannot be saved. Both plans are work that needs to be done anyway and focusses the BS where they can help themselves the most.
Posted By: SmilingWife

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/01/21 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by star*fish
Both of these "plans" are really about working on oneself--and if it's done with the right intent and heart--not at all about manipulating the WS. Granted there are ALOT of people who use these plans with the thought that it will fix something or bring the wayward back home. Those are just the wrong reasons and calculated motives are definitely a little creepy With the right motives, they are about preparing for the next phase of a BS's life---with or without the WS. What I appreciate about Plan B for instance--is that if a BS can successfully disengage from the affair and do some self-nurturing, they are infinitely better off if the marriage cannot be saved. Both plans are work that needs to be done anyway and focusses the BS where they can help themselves the most.


Ha I just came back to post something very similar. I did plan B… but not perfectly and the Queen at the other place was always screaming at me about my failure. Regardless, I did it good enough for me. And it was FOR me. I needed desperately to disengage from a man who had hurt me and cheated on me for 1/4 of a century. I used all kinds of mind tricks that Fergie would probably think creepy but whatever. I pretended he was dead. Much easier to not be angry at a dead man than one who was hooking up across town with a 24 year old.

If plan B had resulted in some sort of major change in xh well, I would have known it. I did not tell him, ‘ hey I can’t talk to you while you are being unfaithful, but if you decide to stop let me know.’. I told him and everyone I was DONE. And I meant it. I remarried with in a year and about 2 years after that he came to his senses….but guess what? It was too late. And that is the ay it is with many serial cheaters…..they don’t wake up until it is really really gone.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/02/21 01:15 AM

I plan B'd, and I was practically perfect, apart from allowing too much head space, but strong on the absolutely no contact. Fpr me it was a chance to catch my breath and rest up after working so hard on my plan A. I regret some stuff I did from D-day, but going plan B was not one of them
Posted By: Fergie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/02/21 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by SFB
Do you know about Plan A/B and what they are all about?

Yeah, I do. And I think in the real world the only Plan A that works is in a Dead Bedroom where the person implementing Plan A is the low libido spouse. Which is statistically zero in real life.

The rest is just duded-up advice most normies (who aren't immersed in marriage advice forums) would give, except it's rules and nomenclature would make most average people look at anyone explaining like they had two heads.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the good grift MB has going. If people want to throw money at you, more power to you.

But marriage is about compatibility. If your spouse is cheating on you, you aren't compatible. Most average people get that.

Originally Posted by star*fish
What I appreciate about Plan B for instance--is that if a BS can successfully disengage from the affair and do some self-nurturing, they are infinitely better off if the marriage cannot be saved.

I wouldn't call it self-nurturing. I would call it "the need to figure out what's wrong with you, because you want to stay with someone who is incompatible with you".
Posted By: SmilingWife

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/03/21 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Fergie
Originally Posted by SFB
Do you know about Plan A/B and what they are all about?

Yeah, I do. And I think in the real world the only Plan A that works is in a Dead Bedroom where the person implementing Plan A is the low libido spouse. Which is statistically zero in real life.

The rest is just duded-up advice most normies (who aren't immersed in marriage advice forums) would give, except it's rules and nomenclature would make most average people look at anyone explaining like they had two heads.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the good grift MB has going. If people want to throw money at you, more power to you.

But marriage is about compatibility. If your spouse is cheating on you, you aren't compatible. Most average people get that.

Originally Posted by star*fish
What I appreciate about Plan B for instance--is that if a BS can successfully disengage from the affair and do some self-nurturing, they are infinitely better off if the marriage cannot be saved.

I wouldn't call it self-nurturing. I would call it "the need to figure out what's wrong with you, because you want to stay with someone who is incompatible with you".


I was separated and had filed for divorce when I did what I called my plan B.

So you believe everyone who has an affair does not deserve a chance to repair their marriage?
Posted By: Fergie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/04/21 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by SmilingWife
So you believe everyone who has an affair does not deserve a chance to repair their marriage?

First, <insert Clint Eastwood> deserves got nothing to do with it. "Deserve" is a strong word.

Second, personally? No. Realistically? Yeah, sure. Because there is nuance when it comes to infidelity. An emotional affair isn't the same as a physical affair. A one night stand that is confessed immediately isn't the same as a months/years long affair. Personally I think a low libido betrayed spouse who unilaterally decides their spouse should go without sex "deserves" to be cheated on.

A spouse who cheats over not feeling their spouse wasn't "nice" enough (exception being denial of physical sex) is just a disordered individual indulging themselves. Plan A don't work in the real world.
Posted By: Lil

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/05/21 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by ferg


A spouse who cheats over not feeling their spouse wasn't "nice" enough (exception being denial of physical sex) is just a disordered individual indulging themselves. Plan A don't work in the real world.


Recovered since July 2010......
Posted By: Fergie

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/06/21 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Lil

Recovered since July 2010......
So?

There was a former member here who was "recovered" and I silently disagreed with him. I thought he was making a mistake and doing it for the wrong reasons. He ended up finally divorcing her after she contacted her affair partner again. He said he stayed because he didn't want to lose half his shinola. He wanted to protect his kids from her disordered behavior and wanted to experience them growing up. I can't argue against that. But on the other hand he can't argue against I was right.

So you see, you can claim Plan A works and I can't refute it.
But I didn't do Plan A. I'm the same as I was before and just found someone more compatible. And you can't refute that is a perfectly fine way to go. Maybe better.
Posted By: SmilingWife

Re: The Next Stage - Plan B, Protection Phase - 08/06/21 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Fergie
Originally Posted by Lil

Recovered since July 2010......
So?

There was a former member here who was "recovered" and I silently disagreed with him. I thought he was making a mistake and doing it for the wrong reasons. He ended up finally divorcing her after she contacted her affair partner again. He said he stayed because he didn't want to lose half his shinola. He wanted to protect his kids from her disordered behavior and wanted to experience them growing up. I can't argue against that. But on the other hand he can't argue against I was right.

So you see, you can claim Plan A works and I can't refute it.
But I didn't do Plan A. I'm the same as I was before and just found someone more compatible. And you can't refute that is a perfectly fine way to go. Maybe better.


I don’t disagree with you. Keeping one’s children’s FOO together is a powerful motivator. I see the fall out from failing at that daily….I am happier being rid of my cheating Xh, but it hurts me so bad that my son’s family is broken.
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